Six states have banned oil enamel?

And I'm pretty sure those six states probably pushed for legislation on lead laws. How did that work out, they made all of us contractors get trained and pay a fee(all they were after) . Contractors who chose to work on homes with lead have to use hepa machinery and cover everything with plastic, dispose of properly.Is it the correct process, yes.But it ramped up the cost of prep and tools so the people who needs it most can't afford it, not to mention contractors who avoid homes that predate the 70s.

And no state cares about the health of their citizens, preservatives for everyone.

I think we are at that point where if you find a painter that wants to use oil on your cabinets and brush it, that is a red flag. It's not superior or preferred in 2017.

Sophie, Beth are you certified to work on homes with lead based paint? If you are so pro water base you should be stripping that old and applying the wave of the future.Dont forget your mask.

or you can just paint over it. yes, the water based can go over that old lead stuff. Matt, all those fumes have fried you brain. Toluene is a wonderful thing. excuse me while I go smoke some dope now.

Painting over it will not stop it from chipping, biggest problem was children putting chips in their mouths. Part of the problem

Matt , you’re not a very good troll. You’re merely tedious rather than provactive.

omg,, kids putting paint chips in their mouths were from a hundred years ago. In tenements. part of the problem. smh. and yeah, if the paint is chipping then obviously it would be removed. Painting over paint that is fine condition is what I was referring to. Go inhale some more fumes and kill off what's left of those brain cells.

Play nice now. Don't make me pull this car over.

"Advice from those who have never done gets old."

Sorry, that's the logical fallacy of relevance, ad hominem circumstantial. I don't need to have children to tell if yours are brats.

That comment was directed at Beth and Sophie, just because it showed up after your message doesn't mean it was directed at you.

Just don't play with him. He's not a nice boy.

Jellytoast, I didn't mean any GC. I meant someone qualified one who can oversee the property as a whole and keep an eye on new subs. That's really like 1 out of 30. It doesn't mean a homeowner can manage their own project. Most professional project managers can't manage their own project.

Hi Ashley,

I'm so sorry to see your pics! I loved my G.C (although I did have to leave a few voicemails) but in the end, he put mega value into our home as we also think we'll sell in about 5 yrs or so.

I took countless pictures, was frequently on property when the subs were here, so I photographed their faces too.

This absolutely will affect the future purchase price of your house. But then again, your future buyer may want to tear the kitchen out and put in their own.

Can you have a professional, highly recommended local real estate agent come over and ask their opinion? How much approximately is this going to cost once you go to sell? Kitchens/buyers in 2022 may be quite different...

Most agents, especially this time of year when it's slow, are happy to pop over. Theirs is a business built on trust and relationships.

Matt.....I just read through that entire column, and Beth’s initial post to the op did not strike me as offensive at all. If anything shocked me it was the op’s extreme response to Beth’s post...it was so over the top. Beth certainly doesn’t need me to come to her defense here, but I have found her to be extremely respectful and helpful on these boards (although she HAS responded strongly to false accusations.....but that has come only after being mercilessly attacked).

If a homeowner can't manage their own project, and most professional project manager's can't manage a project, and only 1 out of 30 general contractors are qualified to manage a project, that really doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

Ryan Olivieri, Inc.

"I didn't mean any GC. I meant someone qualified one who can oversee the property as a whole and keep an eye on new subs. That's really like 1 out of 30."

So you are saying that only 1 out of 30 GC's are actually competent? If so, how in the world does a homeowner ever have a chance?

I’m no expert (been around the block a few times though), but I agree with Ryan Olivieri, Inc. Most GC’s and builders have too many projects going at one time that it’s virtually impossible to keep track of all the details on all their projects and keep on top of their subs and the quality of their work. If one has many projects spread across town, it’s physically impossible to check the status of things every single day with any degree of thoroughness. And that is ONE of the reasons why we see so many poor results on these boards. Many times it’s because they don’t have the skill and other times it’s because they just don’t care....and even if they do care, there’s just not enough hours in a day to get it all done. So yea, I think as homeowners we’re at a definite disadvantage.

I could share things here that would curl your hair that I discovered pertaining to my current build. I just happened to stop by at just the right moment to catch “things”. If I hadn’t been there at the perfect time, I would never have known, and neither would my builder. Crazy things go on all the time and it’s hard to catch it all unless you have someone there at the site from dawn until everyone leaves at the end of the day.

The problem of finding good GC or outright trades is especially difficult right now. So many left during the housing crisis and have not returned.

I really hope the OP gets a resolution and posts again to update.

Don't pay and don't let them in your house again. Yes your most likely stuck with not getting any $ back. Not fair but just the reality of how these things go. Getting in a legal battle will just cost more. Again, not right but common in the construction world.

Right? I don't know. It's a real problem. All through the 80's and 90's we considered the trades a second choice in favor of college, and now very few people can even change a tire, let alone be a good employee, let alone mastermind a remodel. You have to learn the chaos of building from your father, and all the successful GC's sent their kids to college, to be baristas, and we lost a generation of tradespeople.

I hate how the first thing some people go to is that the OP just needed to pay more money, and everything would be fine. Sorry, but idiots charge high as well as low. You can't pay your way out of trouble. I've tried. It just doesn't work. And if I'm babysitting anyway, I'm not paying a premium to do it.

Sorry, but I don't buy the idea that homeowners *must* have a general contractor for renovations. A diligent, informed and proactive homeowner who is willing (and of course has the time to be able) to manage their own reno may be in a better position to do so. Yes, you have to do your homework, shop around, check references (and go and visit previous customers), stay on top of scheduling, ensure you're not getting in the way of the trades while making sure you're monitoring the work, etc. I have been my own GC more than once, and it's not for the faint of heart, but I would probably not entrust it to someone else. What is essential, if you're going to be your own GC, is to be very sure you're hiring subcontractors who use excellent materials and workmanship and stand behind their work and their estimates. And when something seems off or wrong, speak up right away to get things back on track as early as possible. Offering good coffee with homemade baked goods is also a plus!

Appalling work. The painters' first lie was stating that "you must roll veneer cabinets to get the best finish," and the second was that "they cannot be sprayed unless you take them down completely." Nonsense. Any type of kitchen cabinet door, of any type of construction, can be successfully refinished with adequate prep and cleaning, followed by lacquer spraying in an off-site spray booth setup. I commonly use IKEA's clear polyurethaned wood doors (Bjorket or Torhamn) and get them custom-sprayed with excellent results:

I would honestly say, if the homeowner has many years of personal hands on experience with every trade they're dealing with, and the time, then sure, they could possibly do a small remodel for the same price it would cost to hire a GC to do it for them. But I've never seen a homeowner manage anything other than a total circus.

Well if homeowners can only manage a circus, and 29 out of 30 GC's are incompetent, I guess a person would be nuts to decide to remodel anything.

I've been watching the inner workings of construction since I was 2, and that's one thing that's become pretty self evident. Most tradesmen can't even do their job well. How could an ameture possibly hope to do it themselves?

It's the sad state of things. It's a pretty well known fact in the industry. Most of the talent is like 60 years old and the next generation was playing video games instead of tinkering with tools.

The best answer is usually don't do the remodel.

I have a plumber that is very detail-oriented. Great work, charges a fair price. Plumbing is his retirement gig. He retired as a detective, and then went to plumbing trade school. He operates his business with his son, who is a fireman (shift work). They are a great team, and I love hearing the dad explain things to the son, as I know the son will have that as his business one day. Neither one is old-school, but they are excellent. I like to think there are more out there like that.

But I have to say that my experiences with the trades have mostly sucked. Poor workmanship, little attention to detail, just not doing the job as it should be done. My fabricator told me that I had an "eagle eye" and that I was "over thinking things". Oy!

I agree it is sad. But man I hope most people have better experiences than I have had.

"Most tradesmen can't even do their job well. How could an ameture (amateur) possibly hope to do it themselves?"

The people who painted this mess call themselves tradesmen. And they were hired by a General Contractor who passes himself off as a professional tradesman. Yes, I'm fairly certain that an amateur could do a better job than any of them, even if they were holding the brush with their teeth.

You are promoting hiring a General Contractor for every little thing, on a thread where a GC royally screwed up, and then turn around and say that professionals can't do a decent job! Why should anyone take your advice and hire one?

I love this topic. You guys are making good some good arguments. I'm trying to make rules for a grey and very nuanced process. I'm not religious, but I study the bible, and the best parts of the bible don't make specific rules. The bible first tells you how complicated the situation is, and then theoretically leads the reader to make the best possible path to the best possible outcome. As you know life in general is a disaster, but if you make the right decisions, it can lead you to a less disastrous disaster.

I really had no idea how bad it was when I was growing up. When I hit the market on my own, I had some really awful things happen to me.

My dad is a GC, and is the go to for every little detail a client has, from the dirt to the roof. He cold get a plumber to someone's house the same day, when every other homeowner in town was on a 2 week wait. Those clients only had to call one person for anything mechanical to do with their house. We would pump out a basement one morning, and then six months later we would be putting a giant dormer on the roof or something. A few clients have been like this for with us for more than 20 years. One person to trust and hold accountable helped them sleep at night.

Sorry you guys had bad experiences with the trades. It makes me sad, but on the other hand, it keeps me really busy.

I work for several general contractors and I can't tell you how much they complain about the unreasonableness of some of their customers. It certainly goes both ways.

paintguy, yeah, I can imagine. But making a statement like that, in a thread like this, somehow seems inappropriate. ;)

"Sorry you guys had bad experiences with the trades."

You are the one who's saying how crappy they all are!!!!

"My dad is a GC ... one person to trust and hold accountable helped them sleep at night."

Unfortunately for the OP, she's not dealing with her dad.

Ryan Olivieri: "But I've never seen a homeowner manage anything other than a total circus."

Ryan, my point is there are homeowners who are able to manage renovation projects (and not just tiny ones) without a GC. You and I agree that it's not possible without professional, skilled, conscientious and accountable tradespeople, and informed and proactive homeowners, but it does happen. Similarly, we agree there are lousy tradespeople and lousy GCs who do their job poorly and hire poor tradespeople. In a previous new build my husband and I were constantly frustrated by the crummy work done and approved by the project manager...who turned out to be the builder's brother-in-law. On that build we learned the valuable lesson that it was OUR house and OUR responsibility to identify problems right away and be clear and persistent about getting them fixed right away. After a few problems, I ended up going to the job site every day, and realized that good tradespeople were glad to have me stop by briefly to answer questions, clarify our wishes and thank them for their work. We clarified lots of things in advance, thus preventing problems that would otherwise have resulted from the brother-in-law/project manager's incompetence.

The homeowner also has to take responsibility for being an informed and reasonable client. I know many people in skilled trades, including some family members, who have horror stories about clients who are impossible...changing their minds, not making up their minds, expecting the impossible, etc. And that's not even including folks who are slow to pay, dispute valid costs on bills or have to be taken to court for payment.

I think you and I would also agree that it is easier for a homeowner to carefully research one person--a general contractor--than to do so for X number of suppliers and tradespeople. But if you are the sort of person who wants to have control of what happens in your home, and you do your homework, I still contend you can have a successful reno that is not a circus without having a GC. A few people on this thread have made the point that we should expect to pay for high-quality work, which is another thing I've learned over the years: we do get what we pay for.

Here's my take.

With great concentration and really hard work, it's pretty easy to become better than 95% of people at almost any job in a fairly short period of time. Most people suck at everything.

Let is not forget that the major tract home builders have architects planning those things!!!!

You can then either do it yourself, use your 95% competence to locate someone with the last 5%, or use your 95% to supervise someone who is around the 80% level but has different strengths and weaknesses than you.

I have done all three, and they all work.

"You can .... use your 95% competence to locate someone with the last 5%."

What if the someone with only 5% says "Don't tell me how to do my job." :-)

I meant that you use your 95% to find someone in the TOP 5%. You don't need to tell them how to do their jobs. They just do it right.

The problem is when it's an aesthetic job, you have to find the top 5% who also does a style you like. Less than 1% of professionals are capable of more than one style. I gave up with landscapers, for instance. All the good ones around here only did a very narrow design type--and none was quite what I wanted. I like the German new perennial style, but I prefer it countained within more formal hedges. And I have INCREDIBLY high demands for certain areas of the home. Street bed must have vigorous blooms from late April until mid-November. Must attract lots of butterflies. Must fit in a certain color scheme. Etc.)

If you have the 95%, you can use that expertise to avoid the bottom rungs.

You know a stay at home parent of 5 would probably be the best amateur project manager, because it's all about cleaning, babysitting, and balancing the checkbook. Everything else comes secondary, one thoroughly complete step at a time. Most of the problems I've seen come from non-construction related organization and clerical stuff, not moving everything out, not putting up sufficient dust barriers, things like that, keeping things vacuumed and organized.

I’ve found that asking tradespeople with poor skills to fix the mistakes and poor workmanship they created is a fruitless pursuit. We found this out by using the builder warranty to try to get the builder’s tradesman to fix their mistakes..if they were competent they wouldn’t have made those mistakes! We ended up finding and hiring highly qualified people in every trade: electrician, plumber, carpenter, fence builder, etc. and using them INSTEAD of trying to get the incompetents to improve on their lousy work. It costs a lot to do that, but it saves you tearing your hair out and destroying your house.

"I work for several general contractors and I can't tell you how much they complain about the unreasonableness of some of their customers."

That's a customer qualifying sales problem. With a couple of the right questions, it's pretty easy to sniff these people out.

Ryan, do you know me? Lol. I work from home. ;)

The number of times I have said, "I'll just get the dust barrier roll from the garage for you, shall I?"

Seriously.

Even among those who otherwise scrupulously clean up at the end of every day!!!

Haha. Lead by example. It almost works half the time.

This has evolved into quite the interesting thread to say the least! I manage and perform all the work on my own kitchen remodel for many of the reasons mentioned here. Finding quality tradesmen is just too hard these days in my opinion, I have high standards and small details will bother me. My project includes the complete tear down of an old 1960s kitchen my home came with, about 250 SF, down to the foundation. New structurally improved floor framing to meet stone tile deflection standards, two new load bearing walls to account for a row of new windows along the sink, and steel stud framing behind the range wall to allow for flush range installation without ugly trim. The total project is only about 50% done and I started this project in April. That's about 8 months working 2 hours a day after work, and 8 to 10 hours per day on the weekend. Not to mention the hundreds of hours spent having to research and learn each trade I tackle. I am fortunate enough to be a licensed practicing civil engineer in my state, so I can stamp my own drawings submitted to the city. Everything else has been self taught however, and the process has been incredibly slow. Is this what it takes to get exactly what you want out of a major renno? I hope not, but it sure seems that way from what I've seen.

Steven, that’s been my experience. Do it yourself and it’s done right. Yes, it takes time to learn each thing. But back in the 90s I ripped out a 1940s kitchen down to the walls and redid everything without any outside labor, even hanging the cabinets alone with a brace, all learned from video tapes. Turned out great. Skilled labor is out there but it’s rare, expensive, and heavily booked.

Where do you live? What happened with this? We are having a very difficult with a contractor who subcontracted our work out too!

chooper18, this post is 4 yrs old. please start your own post and you will get more help.