I know Burlington has the real RDV , and RU has the real Mme Laurette Messimy. Also I think both Christopher and I got Louise Phillipe ( china) from RVR and got the wrong one..that's all I can think of ATM. Great Thread Carol!

There also seems to be some confusion about Sydonie as it came up on one of the threads this summer. Helpmefind lists them separately - one is listed as a "bourbon" or "HP" (1846 Dorisy) and the other as a "portland" (1847 Vibert). The photos for each are showing a more compact shrub as well as sprawling growth, but Cynthia ('nippstress') told us that hers has a sprawling habit. Hers must be authentic as she got it as the Dorisy HP from Vintage, which in turn came from Gregg Lowery, and she recalled that Vintage listed both Vibert and Dorisy as breeders/distributors. We then wondered if there is only one rose Sydonie with a mistaken identification by some sources or if there are actually two different varieties, both originally named as Sydonie, but still mixed up by some nurseries.

I know several of us have ordered Souvenir de Pierre Notting from RU in the past and ended up with Mademoiselle Franziska Kruger. Not sure if they've corrected that. I have the real RdV but don't remember where I got it. I'll check my notes tomorrow and post if it was from a different source than already mentioned

Sad to say -- few nurseries do correct these things.

FWIW, 'Alice Hamilton' of commerce is apparently NOT 'Alice Hamilton.' But it's a helluva nice rose of China type.

@Jeri:

I too have "Alice Hamilton" that came from Carolyn's rarities collection at Sequoia nearly 20 years ago. At first I thought maybe I'd received 'Old Blush' by mistake, but no - this isn't 'Old Blush'. It bears superficial resemblance to 'Old Blush', but careful observation reveals the differences. Subtle differences, mind you. Its a very nice rose, whatever it is.

I would be cautious about assuming "Errloom"s 'Ville de Bruxelles' is actually 'Comte de Chambord', because there is also a lot of confusion about which of the pink Portland's is actually 'Comte de Chambord'. In commerce, there have been multiple roses sold under that name. Philip Robinson examined the problem years ago and reported:

"Unfortunately, Pergolèse (Moreau et Robert, 1860), Comte de Chambord
(Moreau et Robert 1860), Marie Robert (Moreau et Robert, circa 1860?),
Jacques Cartier (Moreau-Robert, 1868), and Rembrandt (Moreau-Robert,
1883) all seem to be wrongly named.....Mme. Boll (D. Boll/Boyau, 1859)
is the correct name for Comte de Chambord."

I've also seen 'Jacques Cartier' also distributed under this name. I wouldn't dare tell anyone that I know which is actually which!

Christopher, I believe that Fogrose grows Rosa Damascena Semperflorens, but she hasn't posted in awhile. Carol

And thank you all again! I am already gathering all kinds of helpful and fascinating information.

Carol

I had Rose du Roi of commerce from both Rogue Valley and Burling. I didn't keep them very long together--they looked the same to me so I gave one away. Maybe over time they would have shown some differences. I'd have to check the tag to see which one I still have.

The picture of du Roi at Rogue Valley doesn't look anything like the actual flower to me. If it's correct, it's an atypical bloom or was caught at an unusual moment.

I had Reine des Violettes from ARE years ago, and it was the correct one--thornless, fragrant, correct color, etc.

Like Ingrid, I had received the La France imposter from ARE years ago. I'm glad they've finally corrected that problem.

It just occurred to me that I'd read here sometime back that what Heirloom is selling as Spencer may actually be Enfant de France. At any rate, what they show in the full bush shot looks a great deal like what ARE is selling as Enfant de France.

Killer thread Carol!

As mentioned in a post above, the rose sold as Jacques Cartier is misidentified, probably really the rose Marchesa Boccella. And the rose sold as Marchioness of Londonderry is most likely Sachengruss according to Vintage catalog, with which I agree. I have a Reine des Violettes from Heirloom, the not correct pink thorny job, don't know if they still sell it.

Keep up the good work! Super enjoyable, and useful too.

cheerio

Claire

Hmm. This makes me wonder what my Sydonie from High Country Roses will grow up to be like. Great topic! Lisa

Me too Lisa, I got one this Spring..

What about Rosette de Lizy? I've read on this forum that you do want the one from ARE. Are other nurseries not selling the correct plant or is the one from ARE somehow better?

Thank you for all the valuable shared information, observations and experiences! Please continue when you have a chance. I'm taking notes. :-) Carol

The Mercer Arboretum in Houston is really nice. Unfortunately, they are having to rebuild after Harvey :(

How about Edith de Murat and Mme. Cornelissen being the same rose? I'm not sure if everyone knows that...Or at least is is here. I believe it's confused or something as to which is the right one? Feel free to jump in anyone :)

Carol, the Autumn Damask issue is likely much more involved than imagined. This summer, I showed my budded plants of the San Juan Bautista Autumn Damask, which is documented as having been propagated from THE one planted at SJB mission by the original Padres, to an extremely knowledgable rose friend from NorCal. He was very interested and inquired WHICH of the five, perhaps six, types it was. There are "historic" plants of AD from Mexico to all over the US which range from rather semi double to extremely double. He said he has collected several and once these are developed, wants one to plant in the grouping of them for comparison. So...

Thanks, everyone, for sharing your insights. I have not personally experienced any of these cases of incorrect labeling but I will share a few I have read about.

The rose sold as American Beauty has sometimes been another hybrid perpetual, Ulrich Brunner Fils, according to A Rose By Any Name: The Little-Known History and Deep-Rooted History of Rose Names by Douglas Brenner and Stephen Scanniello.

The same source also notes of Triomphe du Luxembourg, "now and then, a pink rose rose is sold under this name, but it is a phony, lacking the essential salmon tint" (p. 175). HelpMeFind offers that the rose in commerce as Triomphe du Luxembourg in Australia may be Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux instead.

Trier and its offspring, Moonlight, are sometimes confused with one another.

Reine des Violettes was apparently at one time sold as Souvenir of Wootton.

Oh, and I have a feeling many people post Gourmet Popcorn pictures in place of its parent, Popcorn, on HelpMeFind mistakenly, too.

Justin

Don't forget that the rose sold as 'Irene Watts' is actually 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'!

And -- Paul said: "I too have "Alice Hamilton" that came from Carolyn's rarities collection at Sequoia nearly 20 years ago. At first I thought maybe I'd received 'Old Blush' by mistake, but no - this isn't 'Old Blush'. It bears superficial resemblance to 'Old Blush', but careful observation reveals the differences. Subtle differences, mind you. Its a very nice rose, whatever it is."

*** Yes. A similar look, but a much better plant for my conditions. 'O.B.' mildews rather badly here . . . but "Alice . . . " never does.

That's good to know, Jeri. I took out 'Old Blush' years ago. I know many people love it, but it was a keen disappointment here.

Paula -- It is a thing of heartbreaking beauty in Texas. <SIGH>

I believe it! But not here.

Vesfl already mentioned the mixup that's potentially out there about different forms of Sydonie, and although I know I got mine from Vintage I'll have to check my paper version of Vintage's catalog to check my memory about the attribution of that rose. Whether mine is the Dorisy or Vibert version according to Gregg isn't clear in my records, since I listed both when I entered it in my system (that could be my own error in transcription as it's been a while). There could well be two roses by this name circulating - all I know is mine sprawls quite a lot and it's lovely.

My "not RdV" came from High Country Roses back in 2009, and my real RdV from Burlington two years ago. I definitely trust Burling on her ID of the rose, and it's pretty common to see these mixed up.

There's the classic mixup that history will probably not sort out with Colonial White being sold as Sombreuil, and the real Mme. Sombreuil seemingly missing in action. If moderns count in these lists, most of the roses sold as Nicole in the US are actually Hannah Gordon, a tall thin growing rose with vivid picotee edges of pink on white.

Cynthia

Thank you all for your contributions! Please keep posting as you think of more misidentified/correctly identified roses.

I started this thread knowing that others have much more experience in the area of ID. I have been grateful that those of you in-the-know have shared your discoveries on the forum and over the years. The combined expertise in this community is impressive and unlikely to be located anywhere else in the world outside of old rose organizations, botanical/public gardens, speciality rose nurseries and Help Me Find. Staff at local nurseries look at me as if my head has exploded when I refer to "Not Reine des Violettes" or the likelihood that the "real" Sombreuil is still circulating in commerce somewhere.

Stay tuned for more news on Heirloom's "Not Tricolore de Flandre." I hope to pin down an ID at some point in the future. I am still awaiting a returned email from Joy Creek re their Reine des Violettes.

Carol

Remember George Washington Richardson is identical in all plant parts to the Sac. Cemetery Mlle de Sombreuil and that Dr. Manners has tested it and found it to be free from PNRSV and RMV, so George is "virus indexed".

Cynthia, Kordes admitted to Sharon VanEnoo years ago via snail mail that Hanna, Nichole the other pretender are all sibling seedlings, and are quite similar. Not "identical", but close enough for government work.

Re 'Old Blush' -- Beautiful in Texas:
Rosefolly(9/Sunset 16)

I believe it! But not here.

*** Sadly, not here, either. Pile of mildew. My "China From Adina" is very like OB, and when it was a baby, it also mildewed. I didn't give up on it because, well, after all -- it's from my family's cemetery. And darned if it hasn't -- for the most part -- outgrown the problem.

Interesting, Kim - I didn't know that. I had heard that the real Nicole (or is it Nichole) is a modest sized 3-4' plant and that Hannah Gordon is a robust 6' or more, so that's how I made the distinction. The flowers do look remarkably similar, but I thought it was the bush size and growth habit that distinguished things. No worries for me either way - just a curiosity of rose names.
There's a whole realm of rose name mixups in the Kordes world since they did us the disservice of reusing rose names for many of their roses, but since the mixing up of those names was entirely intentional on their part I didn't count them among the roses in this category that are inadvertently misnamed because of missing information.

Cynthia

Wasn't that lovely of them?

I think that Gruss an Aachen, both original and 'pink', is the rose with so many identity issues.

jerijen says: "Don't forget that the rose sold as 'Irene Watts' is actually 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'!" I am sure this must be the case but alas there is still confusion on the market. So some nurseries (Beales in UK, Rose Petals in US) sell them separately indicating 1929/30 for 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' and 1895/96 for 'Irene Watts'. Beals also sells the original 'Gruss an Aachen' from 1909. Rose Petals N. does indicate that the synonym for 1895 Irene Watts is 'Pink GaA' but then also lists a separate rose named 'Pink GaA' from 1929.

I also noticed that their color descriptions vary so that the original 'Gruss an Aachen' (1909) is described as light pink (Roses Unlimited, consistent with ARS), white/cream (Beales), white blend (RVR), light pink and apricot cream (Angel Gardens), and so on. I understand that the color changes as ARE describes it, fading from pale pink to creamy white, but some photos show blooms bicolor while others are solid (pale pink or creamy white). Add to it different classifications depending on the author/nursery as floribunda, hybrid tea, polyantha, ... There are some serious personality issues here :-)

HMF has 4 different entries:

- Gruss an Aachen - Bred by L. Wilhelm Hinner (Germany, before 1909)

- Gruss an Aachen - Discovered by Jan Spek Nurseries (Netherlands, 1930).

- Pink Gruss an Aachen Pink/ Irène Watts - Discovered by R. Kluis (Netherlands, 1929)

- Irène Watts - Bred by Pierre Guillot (1855-1918) (France, 1895)

Anyhow, I gave up on buying it until I have a better idea which one I am getting.

Vesfl, "A rose by any other name..." Just get it. It is a great rose.

Cath

Cath, that crossed my mind too, but forgot to mention that the indicated hardiness also differs widely, depending on the source, which makes my 5b/6a zone either acceptable or completely outside the recommended zone range. Go figure! :-)

Vesfl, I am in zone 6a and have not had significant cold injury. Mine is from Roses Unlimited.

I got mine from Antique Rose Emporium:

It's easy to know what you'll be getting for Grus an Aachen. No matter from whom you buy it in the US, "Irene Watts" is Pink Gruss an Aachen. Beales claimed he had the "real" one but never provided any photographic proof, so... If you buy Gruss an Aachen, you get the same rose as from everyone else. Don't worry about what HMF says about origin. The original "white" one was bred in 1909. The "pink" one was discovered by the two Dutch nurseries in 1929/30. There is no way to know which one of these two you will be getting. Just like all the climbing HT sports from the teens, twenties and thirties (and MANY sports which have occurred on many other roses since), most often, the best replaces all the others in commerce and there is virtually no way to know whose it originally was. Cl. Iceberg is a perfect example. When it first appeared, it was once-flowering, but when repeat then constant blooming sports appeared, everyone dumped the once-blooming one and began selling the repeater. Blaze and Blaze Improved are another example. Blaze Improved flowers much more reliably than Blaze and has now replaced it in commerce for the most part. If you want the Gruss an Aachen with the "whiter" blooms, buy Gruss an Aachen. If you want "pinker" ones, buy "Irene Watts" or Pink Grus an Aachen. Don't worry when they look like each other because sometimes they WILL, but not always. They are very variable, but one is usually lighter and less pink, while the other is more consistently pinker. What I would love is to grow Cl. Gruss an Aachen. As splendid a rose as the original bushes are, can you imagine a budded, happy climber of it? Wow!

roseseek, that's my dream, to have climbing versions of roses I love, with the bush form at their feet. Climbing Gruss would be phenomenal!

Wow. I am now tempted to buy both GaA and Pink GaA, I see RU sells them both and each seems to be compact for my smallish garden. I had no idea that there could be a climbing version as well! Would love to see it.

Thank you so much for clarifying it all, roseseek. Thank you for successful enabling, Cath. And thank you for beautiful photos of the original, Vaporvac.

You're welcome, Vesfl. My pleasure!

Roseseek and Vapovac, I have the climbing form of Gruss an Aachen from Vintage. Although I have rooted a few cuttings, I cannot do so reliably. If you can, I can give you a few (very few) cuttings. The rose can now afford a cutting or two but is not very large.

Cath

Wow, thanks, Cath! If it isn't too inconvenient, the time for me to be rooting cuttings is later winter through late fall. Budding is best in summer. Might I please take a rain check until one of those periods? Thank you!

Kim, that would be fine. The only thing is it can lose wood over Winter and there might be less available in Sprig than now. Your call. Also I will need instructions in arranging contact and shipping. If Spring, please do remind me.

Cath

Thank you, Cath. Understood. Hopefully if we leave more on it now, even with the potential of losing some due to the cold, it will emerge larger on the other side. I've been trying to generate appropriate material for demonstrations and this just isn't the right set of conditions for wrapping and budding with the dropping temps and reducing light quality is miffy at best. If the material is available when they are better, I'd rather now waste it, our time, energy and postage. Preparing them is so easy, you'll probably feel, "that's IT?" Happy Thanksgiving!

That's an extremely generous offer. I would also be thrilled to try and root them come Spring. I would also be willing to try the Burrito method after it goes dormant during the winter. I took some fall cuttings and I'll see how my method is working for them.

Kim, I take that as Spring. Please do remind me..."mind like a sieve and all that" to quote someone I know.

Cath

Vaporvac, the plant is small so really only enough material for one person for now. Wish I could. Sorry.

Cath

If my Alice Hamilton (from Rose Petals Nursery) isn't Alice Hamilton, then what is she? She certainly isn't Old Blush. I used to have that one 20+ years ago and my "Alice Hamilton" has a much stronger scent.

I have it as well. I don't know how the name 'Alice Hamilton' came to be attached to it, but to me, it is a China Rose, arguably related to 'Old Blush' -- but with tremendous disease-resistance.

I think of it as "Alice Hamilton" -- or perhaps as 'Alice-Hamilton-NOT".

I've read that ARE's Excellenz Von Shubert is actually Gardendirektor Otto Linne. When I mentioned this to ARE they researched it and agreed, but I think they're still selling it as EVS. :-(

Hi Cath! Happy belated Holidays and a healthy, happy and prosperous new year to you and yours! It's now a full year later and hopefully your Cl Gruss an Aachen may still be around and perhaps have more cuttings available? Thanks. Kim