That's a tough one. Here are two quick plans, with alternate locations for the freezer doors. One gives you shallow storage for canned goods and dishes, and a bit of extra counter. The corner base has a hinged door. There is one upper cabinet with the MW, but it provides landing space for the fridge.

In the second plan, dishes would be stored in drawers on the sink wall, and the freezer drawers are beside the fridge.

Another alternative, which I didn't take the time to draw, would be to switch the fridge and range runs in the second plan.

In either plan, the trash pull-out could be narrower--15" or 12". We have a 12" trash pull-out, which is sufficient for our family of 5.

Here's the switch between range and fridge, with a smaller sink m/l centered on the left window:

Mama goose, you are awesome! I like the first plan with extra counter.

Thank you so much. It looks like you cut off part of our kitchen in your drawings. There's an approximately 8x9 foot section/room on the left (behind the bedroom) that is also part of the kitchen. It shows up in my floorplan attachment on my screen. Hopefully it's showing up for others, Thank you again so much for your time.

Sorry, I interpreted that as a breakfast room. I'm leaving shortly, but I'll take another look when I return. In the meantime, I hope this bump gets you some more traffic.

luckyblueeye, thank you. :)

Do you have a pantry elsewhere that's not shown on our layout?

I'm asking b/c you have a small space and if you don't have upper cabinets and you have extra appliances (freezer drawers), you're eliminating a lot of storage space.

Do you food shop every day? (I know many do so in Europe.) If not, where do you plan to store your food with the lack of cabinet storage?

Regarding the refrigerator...plan for 36"W b/c refrigerators in the US are standardizing on this size and you don't want to be in the position of scrambling to find a small refrigerator b/c you don't have enough room for a 36"W one. If it's located where you can expand, then you should be OK. (Smaller ones will probably still be available, but you may not have many options.)

The problem with that room off to the left is that it's not a straight shot from the larger space, it has a jog in it and the BR below takes up some of the space. I think BenjesBride's idea of a pantry in that space is a good one.

I also like her idea of closing off the right exterior door.

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"We'd like to keep the walls as is between the dining and kitchen."

Is it b/c you want a division b/w the Kitchen and the rest of the rooms? Or, b/c of a ceiling change? Something else?

Would you consider moving the doorway to the Dining/Living Room to provide a more functional layout? Especially if you don't want to close up the exterior door on the right. (With BenjesBride's layout, the doorway could stay as-is and still have a functional layout.)

Thank you for your time spent thinking about and commenting on our layout. We already purchased the 30" refrigerator column--we had one in our last house and thought it worked well as our only refrigerator in the house. We have a chest freezer in the garage. We grocery shop about two times per week.

We considered and were set on removing the wall between the dining area and kitchen but had a change of heart. It's an old house and we don't want to Property Brothers the house. The existing opening between dining and kitchen is 30 inches. We're going to slightly enlarge that opening to about 50" wide and 84" high. It gives us the sight lines to the backyard from the living area while still maintaining the integrity of the original design.

As far as that room to the left of the kitchen proper, we had planned to site the refrigerator immediately to the right of the back of the bedroom closet. Next to the fridge would be the freezer drawers and a narrowish bank of drawers, both of which are topped by a full depth pantry cabinet (no counter top). I'm away from a scanner but when I have access to one, I will attach a layout that we had come up with.

We want to keep both sets of french doors. Originally, we also considered removing the doors on the right but after living here for over a year, we realize that we don't like being forced to weave through the kitchen to exit from the left door.

Thank you all again.

Can you post a kitchen layout that you were considering? In light of your above criteria, I'm struggling to think of an optimal, functional layout that will serve you as well as possible.

Regarding the french door, perhaps if you frame it as... do you want 4-5 additional feet of well-placed prep space --or--do you want two routes (or a quicker route) to the backyard. Personally, I'd be open to changing my traffic pattern to have a nice length of continuous counter between sink and range.

Alright, here's the layout we're considering. Each square is 1 foot by 1 foot. We have considered either an old piece of furniture or maybe just a cantilevered countertop and a couple of stools (acting like a buffet when needed) on the empty wall shared with the dining room. The toaster oven and microwave will be placed next to each other on one of the pantry cabinet shelves (located above the freezer drawers and 2 drawer stack on the far left wall).

Thank you for your time.

What do you like most about your layout above? Is that the existing locations of sink/range and fridge?

What I like most: having 6' of countertop to the right of the sink; not having the range hood in front of a window (we originally were going to have the stove about 2 feet to the right of the sink); sufficient storage for our needs (we had less in the last kitchen we did and it was enough space); no upper cabinets in our faces when we are working in the kitchen (we have uppers in the current kitchen and it feels suffocating); pullout trash in a reasonably accessible location.

Currently, sink is about 2 feet to the right of the proposed sink; Refrigerator is on the wall that is shared with the dining room; stove is where the trash/recycling pullout is. We're putting in new water supply, waste and gas so moving things is no big deal. And we're on a raised foundation so no slab cuts are necessary.

I drafted up your plan you posted and rendered some shots of it. I tried to make it look "lived in". Might help you get a feel for what it would be like to cook in it. The styles and colors are a little off and the stove is sticking out for some reason. Just ignore that. Also threw in a few ideas for the empty corner by the dining room.

Thought I'd mockup some alternate ideas to the one you proposed for this corner.

Option 1: Breakfast/baking hutch

Corner ideas:

Chair and table with some art.

Breakfast or baking hutch.

Could also be a nice place to grow herbs with the windows right there, if you like doing that. Something like this.

instead of a chair in a corner as shown, I would place counter with a stool....And use the wrapped counter around from sink for a place to pull up a stool. With two kids, and such access to your backyard I think the space will be more useable if you can sit with coffee, paper, laptop and watch kids at same time. It is a lovely looking space and when you re-do it you may want to be in the space and want some stool type seating...I would. For that reason this leads to you rethinking the lack of wall storage....I would count on some wall cabinets so you can open some space below counter for seating. This can't be an island kitchen, not sure a banquette would work either.

Emily--thank you so much. That's incredible that you worked that up for us. I like the herb garden wall idea. Herb--thank you for your suggestions. So grateful to you both.

Six feet of counter is great, but if it's not in an optimal location it won't serve you that well. The first kitchen we renovated, I had a wonderful, long expanse of counter--7ish feet-- between our back door and my sink. Because it wasn't near fridge or range it wasn't really used much for food prep and became a drop zone that drove me bananas. For function, you really want to get nice expanses of counter in your primary prep space; between your sink and range.

Think through preparing a meal here...

Grab something out of the fridge. Your nearest landing is six feet away on top of a dishwasher and your span of work top is 11 feet away. (NKBA guidelines recommend fridge/freezer landing space right next to, but not more than 4 feet away.) Then you take food to the cooktop, but there's barely enough landing space there.

Functionally, one of the worst things to do in a kitchen layout (IMO) is to bury the refrigerator and have the path to the fridge bisect the prep space between sink and range. With kiddos coming around that corner with the range, you'll need to be extra vigilant there while you have stuff on the cooktop.

The fridge gets the most traffic from the living space. Imagine preparing a meal at sink and cooktop and someone is coming in to fill up a water glass or grab a snack. It may not sound like a big deal, but that first house of ours had a similar layout and by the time our kids were 1 and 4 it became a gigantic annoyance.

You could move the sink to be centered on the second window if you wanted all that counter nearer to the fridge.

Here's the NKBA graphic for recommended distances between work centers. It's just a guideline, but in my experience it's good to keep NKBA recs in mind. I ignored this in a kitchen I renovated and regretted 11 feet between fridge and sink. YMMV.

Hi from another old house live-r/lover, Wolfgang! Your space has an enviable connection to the outdoors.

Lots of great ideas to consider above.

I think when one has an "interesting" space it's great to really mull over the trade-offs that come with each possible layout. Definitely try to mock up as many things as possible in the kitchen and/or other rooms or your yard (empty boxes are your friend).

I share your dislike of what I call "visual bulk" in kitchens and wish we were co-designing, ha! I've had to really advocate for a few of my ideas with just about every real-life person involved with my potential reno.

From my years spent investigating old kitchens I've noticed a few things about well-done older designs:

• they often felt lighter due to proportion, selective floor-to-ceiling cabs, glass-fronted cabs, and open-shelving
• clever space-savers (including partially recessed or between-the-stud cabs and roll-out / hinged [gatefold] / drop-down tables) were common

So in your zones away from sink and range you may want to really scrutinize areas where you could add extra but not super-intrusive storage.

• Also, I wonder if there's opportunity for a nook or half-a-nook in your space. Most benches are always shown at 2-butt width, but in my own planning I'm exploring having a 1-butt - 1 adult/1 kid butt wide nook and you may want to do the same.

The area that abuts the DR wall seems like a great place to do ~ 12" D cabs to the ceiling, with a bench seat in front, a perma or drop-down table in front of your window, and a slide-under bench if you're getting too close to the french doors to do another perma-bench.

That was a bit tortured, but the short L in the image below shows the gist of what I'm talking about.

• Another thought that occurred to me is that the area you want your frig and freezer drawers might work for a nook. Frig would move to the DR wall [across from right-hand french door] and you'd likely have to lose your 2nd 4-drawer stack on your sink wall to the freezer drawers.

BUT if you wanted to do that...

Maybe your nook is 1-butt wide on the side that adjoins the BR wall and closet [facing french doors] but then you could do a 36" wide table and bench [facing wall] since that'd only expand another 12" into your generous walkway. You could hinge the table to extend it out into the space when you all want to eat there, tuck floor-to-ceiling storage around it if desired etc.

And that's probably enough Nook Talk from me!

Really looking forward to seeing how your kitchen evolves.

ps You could steal design elements from vintage nooks and their perma-bench/tables like this one:

We considered the sink under the other window but had two issues with that location--1) We'd rather the view into the kitchen from the living area be of cabinetry and the French casement windows than a kitchen sink and tap and 2) moving the sink means moving the dishwasher to a location farther from where dishes and glassware are stored (on open shelves above drawer stack behind the dishwasher.

I see your point about having the refrigerator where proposed. Right now it's on the dining wall and we don't like it there. It overwhelms the space with its size and doesn't feel especially convenient. That doesn't leave us many other options that don't involve eliminating fenestration.

Thank you House Vixen. I like the banquet idea in that corner.

I wonder if you moved the dining room opening further down if that would help. I could not tell if the main kitchen area was 15 or 16 feet long. If you were able to move the doorway, then you could fit a broom closet/pantry to the left of the fridge on the wall with the stove. Maybe a counter near the back left french doors for two under counter stools. More storage on the back left wall.

A buffet under the window.

Interesting idea Karen. I like what it does for the kitchen layout but then our dining table and chairs would block the opening to the kitchen. If we move the table to the left, it blocks the stairway. If we move the dining table away from the kitchen to allow a walkway, that puts the dining table into the middle of the living room more than it already is.

It doesn't sound like you're into this suggestion and my Ikea drawings aren't as pretty as Emily's, but I got the planner to work and I thought I'd go ahead and post the 3d images. It's a very functional layout. The sight line from your living space toward the exhaust hood could be a really nice focal point. A table and chairs, maybe some pantry cabinets in the adjacent space would be very useful, but the space would be flexible and you could start out by making it a little play area for the toddlers now.

Thank you benjesbride. It is a functional layout and even though we have a pretty range, I don't want it to be a focal point in this particular house. That stove location was our original preference but after a year plus living here, we no longer thought it worked for the feel we want the house to have.

I like Karen’s and Benjes over the original. Although Emily wow! What an awesome rendering to show Wolfgang. I love the look of the big windows flanking the range hood so I’d go for that. Plus it’s functional with plenty space between sink and stove and next to stove on the other side to plate and serve to table.

Just going back to read more, and Housevixen, wanted to say I’m a banquette lover, wishing I could figure out in my house. Great the “empty boxes are your friend” suggestion.

On the one hand, I saw Benjesbride's version mocked up and went to bed thinking, "that's a very attractive and functional layout."

OTOH, I went to bed thinking, "...and Wolfgang80 won't like the range there and I totally understand that!"

This layout challenge raises some interesting questions about form/function and how we all "bring what we bring" to designing.

[If I have a strong aesthetic dislike of something it becomes *less* functional to me no matter how many boxes it ticks technically speaking -- because it will always bother/irritate/distract me and thus reduce my ability to focus/function!]

Since I'm not the OP it doesn't matter, ha, but here's where I am:

• I don't think the originally proposed range/sink positions are dysfunctional.

• I like the idea of an unbroken sweep of cabinetry and counter on the window wall vs the choppiness of adding in the range there (disclaimer, this is a variant of what I'm advocating for in my kitchen); bonus for being able to avoid all visual bulk (chimney hood or cabs/range hood) above the counter

• The frig location is a neutral to me -- the distance would bug me a bit when cooking because I'm a more spontaneous cook who's in/out of the frig. However, having it in a spot where the kids or another adult could be rummaging around or micro/toaster-ing without getting in the way of sink/stove work seems a real plus. And it wouldn't bother me as much during focused prep time because I'd dump things on the DW counterspace, wash them, then move them to the right.

• I'd missed that the frig is currently on the DR wall an the OP doesn't like the mass of it there. While I still think the DR wall would be a great place for a booth/nook + cabs, I also want to push back a bit on the dislike of the frig there since I think it would feel very different to have it there surrounded by cabs. If you've already mocked it up with empty boxes ignore me, but....that spot might solve the various concerns re frig distance AND keep people out of the sink/stove zone.

I have a personal, strong aversion to placing the clean up sinks in a sight line from a living space, so my first suggestions tend to avoid it. If you don't mind, here are some other suggestions that would also be a pleasure to work in. Functionally, the space works a bit better with the sink on the center window because there is less conflict between someone working at the sink/loading the dishwasher and another person grabbing something out of the fridge.

And the sink scooted to the far left:

Are you open to moving windows and doors around? I was under the impression that wasn't an option.

Also, I think the sink and fridge across from each other could get crowded.

Thank you all again. Your thoughts and ideas are flushing out a lot of important considerations.

The french doors can move a few inches either way. The windows can also move slightly within the space between the two exit openings so long as the overall elevation looks right when viewed from the backyard.

Emily--what program did you use for those renderings?

Autodesk Homestyler. It's a free web tool. I love it.

You'd have to narrow the opening to the dining room and shift it to the stair wall. I think you'd have to move the french door down a bit as well. Perhaps you could flip your workspace to the interior like this. Sorry if this was already suggested. I've kind of lost track of this thread :-)

At 1100 square feet, have you considered turning the area on the left into a legal bedroom or an office? I imagine keeping that space separate would increase your home's market value when you go to sell someday and is a great justification for keeping the exterior door in the kitchen proper.

Emily - Homestyler has come a long way and/or you're really good at it. I think I tried it years ago. Your renderings are beautiful.

They came out with a new beta about a year ago that is in full release now. It is much better than the old one.

The renderings do take a while. Usually I just take screenshots, but I wanted OP to see how it felt, so I did the renderings.

We'd never considered making that little room a 4th bedroom. The space is currently home to the dishwasher, chest freezer and inefficient janky storage and I think we'd rather have it function as more kitchen/pantry space than an extra bedroom. It's an interesting idea. Thank you both again for your time. I'm really in awe at your generosity with time and talent. I'll show them to wife and see what she thinks.

If you only have one bathroom, there might be a great opportunity to make that main floor bedroom a master bedroom with ensuite if you extend it into that offset space.

(We did a gut renovation of a 1200 square foot house changing it from a 2/1 to a 3/2. Trying to maximize little house function is one of my favorite things to do.)

If creating a master bedroom with ensuite interests you, post a detailed drawing of how the stair/bath/bedroom fit together and I can brainstorm.

Way to think outside the box B.B.

I tweaked Emily’s last plan some. I don’t know if it is possible to make the French doors a single door, but I did it so that the clean up sink could go under the window with a counter all the way across. You can unload dw easily into the big dish drawer on opposite side of the sink with a quick pivot. You could have open shelves on each side of the window.

If you could nix the bedroom closet you could center the range for a better triangle. Not sure if the corner will be annoying.

Ok maybe like this??? Switch the bedroom closet to other side? Oh boy I don’t know. This is such a hard one!

To hide the faucet in the prep sink from view, you could copy dietitian’s prep sink faucet.

It is hard! I like the idea to make the french door a single door. That frees up the far side to have cabinets on it.

I'm confused about the measurements of the kitchen.

The house is currently a 3/1.5. We are adding a shower to the ds bathroom (in what is now the bedroom closet) to make it a 3/1.75. We think the upside in utility and value of having two showers outweighs having to borrow kitchen space for the closet. Upstairs are 2 bedrooms and a full bath.

We already have 2 sets of French doors for the back elevation. They and two other sets came out of a late 20s house in L.A. and we were thrilled to find them and really want to use them. I realize I'm giving up some function but they're worth it.

Ok, I assume you have 8' not 7,5' and have a variation of rebunky's idea w/o touching the french doors, but moving the FR entry towards the stairs.

I have b/w the studs storage on the bed room wall and a pullout pantry cab next to the fridge. Freezer drawers are across the range

So the french doors aren't installed yet?

Same question as benjesbride. I think something has to give here unfortunately.

I understand why you don’t want to look at the sink, prep sink, or stove from the dining/living room.

You want these two big beautiful French doors installed. I also get wanting the nice views, doors matching to your home style, and access to backyard.

You want to have the shower added in the bedroom closet space. Yes always a plus.

Now adding to all that, the rest of the configuration of the walls is chopped up. It is pretty much impossible to have a functional kitchen with all these restraints. Ugh!

Is there any way you would consider using one of the French doors elsewhere or selling it? It would make all the difference, imho. You could have a beautiful and functional kitchen with one gorgeous French door. Hope you will think about it. Best wishes!

Hi again Wolfgang --

Are you and your wife feeling the tidal wave of options comin' at ya? GW has no shortage of creative minds!

This got long....

Hearing that the double sets of french doors have yet to be installed does shift things a bit for me.

[And I know only too well the thrill of finding and buying something era-appropriate...and then realizing it won't work as well as another option. Luckily the finds often do work and become very special parts of a house!]

• Were I you, I would continue to explore options that put the "working" part of the kitchen in the main space, and saving the 8 x 9 area for other purposes.

• For me part of this exploration would include holding off on any doors in that area -- make it a dead-end space to eliminate it as a traffic path -- and considering whether I wanted above-the-counter windows for the most function or old-house low windows that are *almost* like having the FR doors.

• I think one of the hardest things about living with kids is that the child you're living with today is basically a different one in 6 months/year! Their independence and needs change so rapidly. So you've got to design from toddler-hood on.

Depending on answers, you could make that 8 x 9 include various combos of the following: an eating area, pantry, small utility closet (for vacuum etc), mudroom-lite (kid outdoor dress/drop) zone, lots of drawers with additional counter space etc.

When I visit my SoCal relatives the kids are in/out in/out in/out constantly. Not a bad thing at all! But if they had 2 sets of doors like you're contemplating ai yi yi there would be a real sense of "underfoot-edness."

In conclusion:

FWIW, I lean toward keeping the major elements of your proposed draft (sink and stove placement, give or take a few tweaks) but with the frig/freezers built into this streamlined zone by the DR. [Again, I know you don't like the frig there now!]