Have you given them any payment for the amount of work it seems you are expecting them to do upfront? If not, expect that to be one of the first orders of business. They should not be expected to draw up plans, measure, etc. for free.

You might also think about not calling these professional trained women who are working hard for a living "gals".

My initial experiences were also pretty mediocre. The first plan which I paid a fair amount of money (~3k) to a design build firm for resulted in a very basic and uninspired plan. Two of their ideas, both of which I probably would have come to in the end anyway, made it into the final plan, but otherwise it was wasted money (and time). It was not what HGTV made me think I should expect. Discovered this forum and got much better advice and feedback here than from the pros and came up with a pretty solid plan. I took that plan for 3 quotes, one was a local custom shop, one was a local place that sold national brands (I priced Omega Dynasty) and one was Starmark via Costco. 1 gave me line drawings, 1 gave me 3d renderings which were pretty nice, and one gave me nothing. I settled on the local custom place recommended by our new builder/contractor (that we hired after cutting ties with the initial design/build firm) and then let the pros fine tune the cabinet construction details. They were very good at that. Kitchen turned out excellent in the end.

Miranda-I can see your point on payment upfront. However I have spent 8 hours now in the car or in their place of business. I really just want to know the norm. They also gave me an estimate based on the plan, but given the missing pieces, it is likely very far off. They did not ask me to make any payment. I came to them already knowing what cabinet line I wanted...which is not available very many places.

Not to start an argument, but I have been in professional sales for 15+ years and have 2 bachelors degrees. In my neck of the wood, calling a female a gal is fine. (I am female myself). It may be a regional thing? If the designer was male, I would've said guy.

Had I made a payment and then gotten switched to a different (new-less experienced) designer, I would've been irate! Also, from the original estimate given, I would be able to request my deposit back based on how much higher the actual total will likely be for what I said I wanted in the very beginning. I just want to make sure that my job is taken seriously and I'm not getting shortchanged by working with the new gal. It really doesn't matter that I have to drive a distance to their shop. I have been in 3 times now (2 of them being confirmed appointments). If I really am only going to see one change at a time, I will just plan for the appointment to be much shorter....and more plan other appointments on the same trip. Again,that is not ideal either as I am still trying to work.

Right now our industry is swamped and we're in the holiday rush period...the busiest time of the year. I don't think you should be getting down to the creative nitty gritty in the early stages of price shopping. My advice is get basic ballpark prices from 2-3 places and feel out which designer you fit with the best. Along the way, if they give you some creative design advice, that's a bonus. But I would price shop the same layout or you'll just get confused. Once you give a deposit for the job to the designer of your choice, you will get a LOT more attention! btw, I don't mind being called a gal. But I'm old school. LOL

Thanks kitchen place. I actually think that is why I got pushed to the new designer. I agree that is it early in the game to finalize a kitchen design. However in my case, I will be the primary caretaker of our children, the provider of desposable income, the general contractor, and a main laborer. I am also the primary decision maker and decorator for the build. My husband can veto but is letting me run with this.

Therefore it is wisest for me to finalize as many decisions now that I can. I am also the type that gets stressed reading that someone's GC needs a decision now or 2 days ago....lol I couldn't do that! I am already working on color schemes on the main floor and committing the kids to their colors.

Actually, my girls are sharing a bathroom, and I have already negotiated with my older daughter to have her nail polish become community property...and we are already deciding on a cute storage cabinet for her 30+ polishes. Only my 7 year old doesn't seem concerned about her room much. My older 2 are like me and like to know what's going to go where.

I am of course flexible enough to make changes throughout the project. But the whole build will run smoother if I only need to worry about a few tweaks!

Bingo. That post says it all.

Because of this, "I'm finalizing my floorplan and wanted to make sure the kitchen works before putting in my foundation!" I can see why you want to make sure your overall design works. Have you posted your floor plan here?

I spent hours tweaking layouts and then posted here and took the feedback and applied what fit for us. Then we approached the kitchen design center. The person we worked with wanted to draw up a design. too. It was fun to see what he came up with, but when we compared them, the one I had done won hands-down. IMO, there is no way someone on the clock is going to spend as much time considering how best to organize and meet the needs of our family to the degree that I am.

Our KD gave his input on several things and we made some modifications. We met with him several times in person, but a lot of our tweaks happened via email.

Sophie-Not sure what your post means....except that because I am not shopping last minute that I don't deserve the same level of service? I actually will take far fewer hours for my overall design than most clients. I'm more yes/no like a guy in my thinking than unsure like many females...

Cheryl-Actually my floorplans were designed primarily by me. The house designer is finalizing them for me. I have thought through so many details on this house. Nobody knows my family and what works best for my children's needs than I do. I thought I would've posted portions of my plan already, but am not ready to. And yeah, I have already drawn out where I think everything will go. I did post a question a few weeks ago, as it looks like most of my food will be going in the pantry a few steps from the kitchen. I wanted to make sure I wouldn't regret not having many upper cabinets. Honestly, I think it is a combination of getting transferred after 2 visits, and only being shown one choice. I was able to clearly point out the changes I wanted to see. But I'm not sure how others do that when they don't know what they want going in. I just want to have someone take my plans and fine-tune them and add something special while still allowing my desires to stay intact.

Okay - I bought my Shiloh cabinets from a kitchen design store They also carried a more expensive brand. I made an app't and took pictures and general measurements with me - all on my iPad. I also had a few inspiration pictures (notice the word FEW, not every kitchen you've ever admired). My KD already knew my budget, which was low.

We spent an hour talking and with him doing a bit of sketching and writing down which cabinets would be needed and their prices. I quickly knew that it WAS possible on my budget!

I went back for another 1 hr app't as I had some significant changes to make - the location of the refrigerator. We looked a pictures on my iPad of how I wanted the cabinets built around the counter-depth refrig.

Then, the KD came out to my house and took measurements. This made the info more specific.

At that time, I was asked to pay a $1000 fee. For that, they would design my kitchen with specific cabinets, and do CAD drawings which I would own. It would also include a specific price for the cabinets/labor etc. These were not estimates! If I chose not to use the company, I could take my drawings and the quote for materials/labor and they would keep the $1000. If I signed a contract with them, the $1000 would be applied to the contract.

In all the previous meetings, we discussed what they would do and what I would be allowed to do. Many KD companies want to do ALL the work; I wanted to source someone to remove my countertops and then re-install them - same with my sink and faucet. I was keeping all my appliances. I had had significant lighting done 13 years before and wanted to add some and re-use the under cabinet lighting. It was find with my KD if I used the person who had installed all the lighting that was staying. I also wanted the soffits removed BEFORE clearing out all the cabinets, and he was fine with me hiring my own people to do that and to install a drywall ceiling over the damaged plaster. He was also fine with my using my own painter, and sourcing my own cabinet pulls, and various inserts.

It's unfortunate that your place is such a distance from where you live. My kitchen place was 2 miles away and 2 blocks from a road I go up and down a minimum of 3 times weekly, so it was very convenient.

Hope this helps!

I think you should pay for an independent kitchen designer to come up with plans. You can then get quotes at different cabinet shops.

Amateurs that think they can design a house or a kitchen take up the most time, and design in the most problems that have to be designed out. Their preconceived bad ideas just can’t be knocked out. We see it on a daily basis. They don’t want to listen, and they want to second guess the actual science. They get charged extra. They are more work. Ones that ramble on with completely extraneous details to the task at hand get charged even more. And that is why you’re getting handed off to a junior before you even start. Obviously. The $900 Benefit to the massive hourly Cost ratio that you present isn’t there. They can do 4 other projects in the time it will take to deal with yours.

I bet you’re not willing at all to take any critique of those plans. Post them in the Building a Home if you’re up to having your preconceived ideas challenged for the better. Post your plans here. I’m betting you won’t.

Right now our industry is swamped and we're in the holiday rush period...the busiest time of the year.

The Kitchen Place, when is the slowest time of year? I am assuming after the first of the year?

BCarey, I feel for you with the traveling. Many of the brands I want bids on are 40-60 minutes away. :/

There is a lot of variety in how dealers and designers approach a project, the best way to find out what to expect is to ask up front.

A start might be the what, when, how for: meetings, follow up time, drawings (look at examples), 3D views (see below), versions, revisions, pricing (itemized or not), communication, samples, product/service providers and options (in house or out, can we source our own...), retainers, follow up at install, replacements when needed (policy and lead time), mistakes (by designer, client, or contractor)

In general.

• a minority will do multiple layouts to start but some do. (having your appliance and sink location fixed doesn't leave a lot of room for variation in overall layout, only details)

• most will invest more work after you are a client, made a commitment (paid a retainer) than before.

• color renderings early on can be dangerous. The OOB textures are not always that accurate and most renderings require messing with lighting to get close. There are details and textures that require and extra level of skill and time to get into 3D drawings (tile patterns, hardware, beaded inset, glazes...). That said there are Some outfits that use color renders to sell a job- usually that means less revisions are done. IMO opinion color 3D are best not done until a layout is settled and are only good for general relationships NOT real life (yes this isn't HGTV any more than I live in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood :) Colors need to be picked from current samples. You are buying a kitchen not a picture. FWIW there are companies that do custom renderings, between $250 and $900 per view, meaning it's time consuming.

• Time-typical meeting for me is 2hrs, 1 minimum. Average client has 7. Add in emails and phone calls and the client spends about 25 hours interacting with us.

• Some will work live for you, some won't, some will do a little adjustment and then fix it for the next meeting. My end of the job is 3 to 4 times that of the clients.

• A majority of places are concerned with NOW....some places are fine with jobs that won't finish until some distance out, many are not. New construction is the least attractive to work on early. Budgets are not firmed up, often come in higher than expected-usually means the kitchen budget gets slashed OR the job doesn't happen. Ask up front, be clear about time line and budget.

In my mind you can shop for a cabinet/brand or you can shop for a designer and see if they have a cabinet that is suitable. There is the option of an independent designer, usually costs more since few places will give much of a discount if any (we are still responsible for the order).

Or there is this forum. I think one reason that we see so many more layout threads is the good people here are willing to help and many kitchen dealers fall short of what folks want. It still needs to be turned into reality though.

MarkJames-Thank you so much for your reply! It seems as though my expectations for the overall process may have been off.....particularly expecting fewer appointments! I have called and requested further changes and asked for a few different options of some stuff.

I did get a rough estimate on my first visit based on my kitchen size and figuring in the built-in appliances. I can see how my being further out means payment is further out. That does help a business with cyclical cycles though.

I was planning to wait until I got closer with the kitchen store until I posted my floorplan, but maybe I will post my kitchen today. I do love seeing all the ideas that get brought up that I might not have thought of. I did already post a question about food storage in my pantry a week ago. It was really amazing to see how many people actually prefer not having their food in the kitchen....I was feeling like I may be weird for it!

There are 2 design places that carry them about 45 minutes from me. One
is a run down builders supply type store. The other an actual kitchen
design studio.

I think you just answered your own question. If two places relatively nearby carry Shiloh cabinets and one of those places is kind of shuffling you off to the new kid /not making you feel like your $30,000 project is "enough" to warrant their best ... make a call to the other place right away.

You're talking about a huge amount of money, and it's your project -- you deserve to be taken seriously.

Not to start an argument, but I have been in professional sales for 15+
years and have 2 bachelors degrees. In my neck of the wood, calling a
female a gal is fine. (I am female myself). It may be a regional
thing? If the designer was male, I would've said guy.

I'm not in sales, but I have two college degrees and have worked in a professional job for 25 years. I would not take offense at being call a "gal"

Mrs Pete-Thank you! I think I was okay with being pushed to someone who had time to tackle my project. But I had to call 4 weeks after the first appointment to get a follow up appointment, and that is when I was told I was pushed. I guess I had sort of hoped that the tradeoff would mean I would get more time put into my project? I certainly wasn't expecting some key things that I said I wanted to be missing? (Which puts the bid for the drawings done quite a bit off). I could try the other place too....but after going in there to check them out, I would rather not. I'll see how this other place shakes out. I can also look at different brands. Mostly, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't getting one plan when the standard is more.

In the meantime, I did post my plan here. I look forward to input from such a large group of knowledge.

I'm wondering, people have said more than once to focus on getting a good KD and then find some cabinets I like that they sell. What if only one place has them and they come with a lousy KD, or only one place of two has a way better price with a lousy KD? Do we really just walk away because the KD is no good, or just make the best of it and get the cabinets we want? I'd be interested in the professionals opinions, but anyone's free to chime in!

I think most KDs really suck at their jobs. Sorry, folks. Then again, so do many plumbers. (Finally found a replacement for the smart guy who's retiring! Thank goodness really skilled tradesmen who own businesses like our neighborhood so much.) Don't get me started on architects. Even when you find a brilliant one, you have to find one who will design a house for you to live in, not to live in his portfolio.

The average KD sucks less than the average Joe Schmoe. But they still suck.

I am happier with designs vetted here than 95% of KD work.

Milly Rey - I had a great KD. You are generalizing. How many KDs have you worked with to say "most KDs really suck at their jobs"? Give us a number so we can hear your scope of experience. Wow.

I am wondering what you and/or your SO and/or your kids do for a living and how you'd feel reading a post just like yours saying most of that profession suck at their jobs, without that person knowing you or knowing anything beyond their tiny circle of experience. And lots of variables as in what kind of client you are, how much you want to spend, how demanding, or how passive, etc. No way to know what events lead up to your opinion that "they still suck." But I bet there are two sides to that story. Given your disdain, the repeated use of the word "suck", and the condemnation in your post of thousands of people, the majority women, who work very hard as KDs.

Beth-Sorry I didn't see your comment earlier. Yeah, I has kind of already decided on this cabinet line. And the first designer was good, but so got moved to a second designer. She is probably good too. I called back after I came up with a few additional specifications (not really changes, just clarification.). I was told I could come back in in a few weeks (would be my 3rd appt/4th time in). The next day I was called and asked for $ to continue the design services. She said she didn't know the policy. So I'm suppose to put $$ upfront for design services when the designer is new enough that she didn't know? The $ goes towards the cabinets eventually. And if she is good, probably worth it to have whole kitchen and bathrooms designed. But kind of just feeling like ifthat was the case, I should've been told somewhere before 8 weeks after my initial visit.

Milly-I think only about 20% of people are even good at their job. You find it in nearly every profession. As consumers, it seems that we have the challenge of obtaining all the information ourselves or just risking having it not done right.

You are being viewed as an unrealistic time waster. Of course they want money to continue working with you. I would have asked for it after the first meeting. As would almost every actual kitchen designer. No one works for free.

Cabinet sales people aren’t designers, and they don’t have a duty of care that a designer does. No responsibility other than selling you stuff. They don’t even have to know anything about codes, or structural considerations, or color theory, or lighting, or materials properties. To cover just a few things that an actual KD has to know. In addition to the 9 500-1500 page does books for each of their lines.

Cabinet sellers have been known to place 30” cooktops in 30” cabinet “islands” with zero safety clearance around them. Or place sinks at the edge of a counter run up against a wall when there was 8’ of room to not have to do that. Or they show lovely renderings if islands with giant overhangs held up with magic and air and nothing structural at all. They never heard of the MIA, or TCNA, or even the NEC.

And you still haven’t posted your plans.

So I'm suppose to put $$ upfront for design services when the designer is new enough that she didn't know? The $ goes towards the cabinets eventually. And if she is good, probably worth it to have whole kitchen and bathrooms designed. But kind of just feeling like if that was the case, I should've been told somewhere before 8 weeks after my initial visit.

Yeah, not knowing something (we think) she should have isn't a real confidence builder. is it? And when one is doing a kitchen for the first time, how do you know who is really good? I mean, how can you tell when there is so much you don't know, that you don't know? That's where GW really shines, but still....

Wishing you much success in this.

MJ&C, thank you very, very much. What a wonderfully detailed write up. I'm going to print it out!

I just have a couple remarks. One, about the unhappy dumb installer. That makes it sound like everyone should hire the kitchen co. to install. I have a GC who does not want anyone else to install, because he doesn't trust them. That might not be fair either, but all non cabinet installers aren't bad either. :)

And two, I LOVED your remark about how it's a plus if the KD cooks. I think they definitely should. You can't truly understand a kitchen unless you do. This reminds me of what I used to say about school principals. I thought it should be a prerequisite that they had kids. ;)

Thanks again for taking the time!

"That makes it sound like everyone should hire the kitchen co. to install."

NOT at all no need for in house IMO. (we don't offer it-has pros and cons-only good referrals but I'll work with anyone, got a DIY going this week)

The installer needs to know the details BEFORE they give you a final price, the KD needs to talk with the installer (preferably before the order is place) and be available on site as needed (I go more than some installers like:)

Cooking is a plus not a requirement. Kids- they come in too many varieties.

Ok, I misunderstood you MJ. And yes, my GC wants to be apprised of everything, before hand.

Sophie-Yes, this is not a big box store. I had already decided against that route. I did post my plans. I doubt you will like them, but they are up. And I actually do not have a problem with paying upfront something for the design service. However being told 2 days after my 2nd appointment seems a little odd to me. Not to mention after being switched designers. If you notice in my first post, quite a substantial bit of what I had asked for in my first scheduled appointment was missed due to the transfer of designer. I am excited to see what amazing plan you can come up with given the space I have for my kitchen!

MJ&C-What a fantastic write up! Since mine is a new build, some of the questions don't apply. But great information for everyone. What is funny, is I did ask about payment and was told 50% upon ordering.

Should ALWAYS produce a version
that is as close to what you thought you wanted as physically
possible (and then show you what is good and what is bad about it) and then alternatives if at all possible.

-I completely agree with this! I was shown one drawing...although close to what I had asked for, except for major missing pieces. I do agree that a new person with time on their hands can come up with some really creative things. I was also shopping for a creative designer...not a Home Depot.

I worked with the owner of the store - he was the only one there on the Sat I first visited. Perhaps that made my experience different.

I can promise you that if I had been asked for money on the 2nd visit, that would have ended the entire relationship and I most likely would not have redone my kitchen. It was a HUGE thing for me to do and I sure didn't want to feel like the "meter in the cab" was running and my time was up soon.

Thanks for writing this up! I'd like to ask clarification on a couple items:

• retainers and how applied, time limit for (IMPORTANT- do NOT expect to have final pricing prior to retainer! Just not possible until layout and details are final.
  

  Is it reasonable to have an estimate on the total cabinet cost before committing? I can understand that a KD might say, "We're planning two 32" cabinets here", then upon coming out to measure it turns into two 36" cabinets -- and that would cost more. But is is reasonable to have an estimate that's within, say, $1000 of the total price?

• I think they should visit the site as early as possible, be working from field measurements they took along with photos. A minority will do this prior to commitment but if they don't do it then and it is not first on the list after retainer.

  New build: So the KD would draw up a preliminary design ... then come in to physically measure /verify details once the house is "enclosed" ... and at that point the design is finalized /order is placed?

  Does the KD also come in the day the cabinets are installed? I kind of don't see the point in that, but maybe I'm missing something.

Is it reasonable to have an estimate on the total cabinet cost before committing?

I tend to think so :) How each place does it depends. I like to offer "in this brand, this layout, with these options, in the style you selected will be this (I aim just a tad high to cover since it is nicer to finish low) and not less than this. I know that some higher end outfits will just do a ball park and no design without a layout. I am A) a lousy guesser; B) think you should know what you are spending and have some idea of what we do, how we work-IOW what you are buying.

New build: So the KD would draw up a preliminary design ... then come
in to physically measure /verify details once the house is "enclosed"
... and at that point the design is finalized /order is placed?

Depends on the extent of the build and type of construction and the brands lead time. I always measure when the framing is done to at least double check for windows and electric/machanicals. I always check after the rock is in just to be sure. Occasionally something specified has been moved (like lights). Then we order. Typically the "design has been finalized already" final measures are a double check and should only require a tweak at most.

For new construction or major additions I like to have input prior to final plans to make sure what you want will work. Often in conjunction with an architect or builder (so long as there is a retainer). Some will do that , some won't. I prefer it for a lot of reasons-aside from fitting what you want, it avoids last minute budget overages requiring dumping design work when the client has spent too much elsewhere.

Does the KD also come in the day the cabinets are installed? I kind
of don't see the point in that, but maybe I'm missing something.

That depends but I usually do to make sure everything is clear. The better I know the installer the less important it is that I am there the first day. (but I do offer to assist with the on site layout if they like) Getting there early in an install prevents problems, sometimes things that I worry about can be checked, if there are any problems we can get replacements faster.

My approach is not common. I do it in part as self defense, A) have had bad things happen when not looking B) maintain the relationship with the client.

More I do it since I sell kitchens, not boxes. You bought a kitchen, part of my job is to make sure you get it.

I have a question. How close to actual demo time should I start getting bids? I have several places I want to get bids from, but I don't want to start this demo til after the holidays. Should I just wait til after Christmas? I'd kind of like to start now....

MJ&C-

For new construction or major additions I like to have input prior to final plans to make sure what you want will work. Often in conjunction with an architect or builder (so long as there is a retainer). Some will do that , some won't. I prefer it for a lot of reasons-aside from fitting what you want, it avoids last minute budget overages requiring dumping design work when the client has spent too much elsewhere.

This was exactly the reason I was there. I was very upfront on my 1st visit what I was doing. I was even given an estimate without drawings on my 1st visit. From there, I scheduled my 1st appt. I would rather have my details hashed out while I can still change kitchen measurements...if it makes sense. Other than maybe a few small changes, I already know I am not going to be able to mess with all these major decisions during the build.

The design deposit they asked for a few days after my 2nd appointment was less than $1,000. Not much and it gets applied to my cabinets. The timing was really odd. I don't really go around scheduling appointments for entertainment! I gladly would have paid it if I had been told even at the 2nd appointment (when I asked about how payment was due when ordering....given that I don't want to pay more bank interest than I have to for the 8 weeks or so the cabinets aren't even in my home.), but now I'll just find somewhere else.

I have a question. How close to actual demo time should I start getting bids? I

I tell potential clients they need to see me a minimum of 4 months before they want to be finished. The bigger the remodel the more should be added. That allows times to get bids/shop around and be comfortable making decisions. I find that I get pricing to folks sooner than most so am often waiting on others - from when you see me- I try to measure within a week, make an appointment for two weeks from that to look at layouts and get pricing- after that it is wait for bids , next meeting is usually retainer. Contractor bids can add to the initial time for pricing.

Most of the contractors I know who are any good are generally booked out 4 months, occasionally as little as 3, rarely as little as 2.

Great, then I don't think I'm really too early to start. Thank you!