First floor layout:

I'd prefer buehls's layout.

If the measurements in the second peninsula layout are correct you have 159,5" for the width of the DR, 9" more than buehl's layout show. So you can have wider aisles and can consider a drop down counter o/h for kids to have quick meals.

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Hi Sena, I think buehl's drawing (and the drawing you did) is very practical. It makes sense. I think the big reservation I have with that plan is that I'm worried that it will turn my kitchen and dining room into one large kitchen. I don't love the drop down counter, but I definitely would like a space (island or peninsula) where kids can sit and eat or work on a project. i think that would mean moving the pantry.... Are there any big concerns you have about the peninsula design?

One of the big things I like about Sena's peninsula design is that there are no corners. In the other peninsula design there are two corners - which seems like such wasted space in such a small kitchen. I read about the ice, water, stone, fire plan - does it matter that the fridge is diagonal to the sink, on opposite ends? I'm not sure I understand how not having that order would hurt. (Would it make sense to switch the sink and the range? That would leave me with a dish washer in the middle of the kitchen, which I'm guessing is a bad idea.)

I think there was a concern that the stools at peninsula were too close to the dining room chairs.

I'm no expert so I may miss something but as far as I can see KDs' designs also leave equal or less length for the DR than my design.

If I'm not mistaken (assuming 12" o/h), the first design uses 141" for the kitchen and the second uses 123,5".

My peninsula ends at 123" but has a 16" for decorative panel(1") and o/h (15") Since the o/h would be for the kids maybe you can have 12" instead of 15", giving you 3" more for the DR. If 159" measured by the KD is correct another alternative can be to turn the table 90 degrees.

Are there any big concerns you have about the peninsula design?

In both layouts you'll be too close to the range when you're at the sink or when bending to load/unload the DW. I don't get claustrophobic very easily but I'd hate being at the sink when DW door is open.

I read about the ice, water, stone, fire plan

I agree that it's a very useful guideline but if I don't have to walk very long distances from one appliance/sink to the other and there's ample room in front of the range when going back and forth b/w the sink and the fridge I wouldn't mind an ice, fire, stone, water arrangement.

(NKBA guideline 3 says: "In a kitchen with three work centers the sum of the three traveled distances should total no more than 26' with no single leg of the triangle measuring less than 4 feet nor more than 9 feet. ")

I didn't do exact calculations but I guess the distance b/w the range and the fridge in the the IWSF compliant layouts I can think of, would be around 10,5-11', sum of all distances around 23,5'. In my peninsula layout the distance b/w the sink and the fridge is about 9,5' and the sum around 16,5'. Personally, I travel b/w the fridge and the sink more than the range and the fridge but when I do I want to be as quick as possible and would want no obstacles such as the edge of an island b/w the two.

Thank you so much, Sena, you have been so helpful. Latest wrinkle is that I've decided want to preserve the crown molding that goes around the top of my dining room. I still want to take down the wall, but In order to preserve the molding, I have to keep the kitchen appliances in the kitchen. It will look too strange now if I have fridge or range outside of the footprint of the original kitchen. I liked this idea, nice big drawers, no corners, but I'm pretty sure it's not enough cabinets.

Alternatively, with my above galley layout, if I put a wall oven and microwave in what is labled pantry, it would open up drawer space where the mw is currently and under the range top. (If I shorten the peninsula slightly, I could even put a thin pantry along the wall from dining room to kitchen...)

When I first saw your new layout I also played with the idea of MW/wall oven next to fridge, but I think it will be better to have a little bit of more counter in the kitchen.

You mentioned the possibility of having a pantry in the powder room/coat closet area in your other thread. If you can do that I'd suggest moving (a smaller) MW to the other counter. By doing that you can gain some more drawers in the prep zone and anyone using the MW wouldn't be in your way when you're prepping . The extra counter on the range side can be for snacks or for a second cook to prep.

Assuming a 24-27 cab for the MW, I think you can have a full depth fridge next to it, since there would be an opening in front of the fridge. On the other side maybe you can fit a shallow pantry cab turned sideways.

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Maybe you can use the LR wall for a b/w the studs pantry. I'm not sure about shortening the peninsula and having shallow storage on the DR wall. If you can, do it after the peninsula on the DR side without shortening the peninsula.

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I'd also suggest deeper counters (and cabs if possible) on the range wall. Some discussions about extra deep counters here and here.

Over the peninsula you can consider an upper with doors on the sides as well, so it will be easier to use it from 3 sides. It will be hard to unload the dw directly to that upper for one person, but if you keep your plates/glasses there anyone setting the table can do it from the DR side.

Thanks for the suggestions, Sena. Which counter do you suggest for the microwave? I am going to draw up a new plan with your suggestions and I'll post tonight or tomorrow. I like the idea of a between the studs pantry in addition to a pantry in the other room.

This is what I have in mind.

Wow! Yes, I think we are on the right track!

A couple of thoughts- can I get rid of upper cab next to peninsula and/ or the upper to the left of the range? Maybe I would pick one spot for some open shelves. Would an appliance garage to under the upper on the right work? The two small appliances we use regularly are coffee pot and toaster. Thank you so much, I really appreciate your work.

Thanks, cpartist. Tina's kitchen is amazing. I think the open plan works really well cause the space is large and the island runs parallel. I'm still willing to revisit Buehl's plan too. If I were to do something like that would you move the header ( with molding) further into the dining room? Or would I just get rid of header and try to run the molding through the kitchen. If I do the island, is there a way to incorporate seating (maybe two stools in the end cap facing each other?). My house is a traditional stone colonial, but for my kitchen I want cleaner more modern lines (think modern farmhouse, without the farmhouse elements). I guess what is called transitional - panted shaker cabinets, white quartz countertops, marble backsplash, simple brass pulls. I'd like to achieve an open and airy look as possible, but still not feel like the kitchen is at the front of the house when you walk in. At this stage I welcome any and all input!

I'm headed to the gym right now, and then dinner, but I'll take a look after dinner to see how to tweak Buehl's excellent plan and what could possibly be added to visually separate the two spaces. and also see about the island questions.

What is the height of your ceilings?

And do you have a layout of the floorplan of the house?

Sorry got finished later than I expected and tomorrow I'm packing to head back to FL for the winter, but I'll definitely try and think of a few things to do. I have a few ideas even with 8' ceilings. If I don't get to it tomorrow for some reason, I promise to get to it Sunday or Monday.

Also would you consider banquet seating? And how low is the front window in the dining room?

The window is 15” from the floor. It is actually a full length bay. I’m not sure about banquet seating. 1) I like it in a kitchen and I am afraid this will make the dining area even more casual 2) I have school age kids and they are still messy eaters, so I’d have to find something that was cleanable 3) is this a trend with longevity? 4) we have a cherry shaker/mission dining table and chairs that I’d like to keep, and I can’t imagine how it would look as a banquet table.It has sentimental value as it was one of the first things we brought when we first got married, it is well made and actually pretty, but doesn’t necessarily go with any kitchen that I am designing. That said, I am pretty much open to anything at this point. So if you think you have a great idea, I am willing to listen.

1. Since you feel it's too casual, then it's not an option.

2. LOL. Been there, done that. I'm a firm believer in sunbrella fabrics for that reason.

3. Who knows although I remember banquet seating when growing up.

4. That's the best reason not to do banquet seating. Since you love the table.

Here's putting a 12" x 6" wall separating the kitchen from the dining room. I'd make it a header wall, and case it all in wood. It would make your pantry about 6" narrower.

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While this one is obviously in a house with higher ceilings, it could be modified to work in your home.

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Here's another thought. Do the header like I showed in the first two pics above, and put in a modified coffered ceiling in the dining area. I wouldn't do more than a 6" deep coffer since your ceilings are low, but you'll be able to get away with it in dining area since it will make it feel more intimate.

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Thanks. I think a transitional header is a great idea and it could look great. I like the last header and the 3rd to last. I also like the idea of an arched header with no walls. Wwhat are your thoughts on getting rid of the pantry so I can have island seating? I could do a between the studs pantry in the kitchen and a larger pantry in the family room. I really would like some seating at the island.

Here is an example of a very similar dining room table. I don’t want to tailor my kitchen to this table (ie, I don’t want a mission or craftsman style kitchen). I just hope they don’t clash horribly.

I am LOL! Those are very similar to my dining room chairs! My table is slightly different in that I have a pedestal instead of the 4 legs. Otherwise it's the same color and the same look. (This was my condo when it was staged for selling)

The look is generic enough that it should go with a multitude of different styles, from more traditional to more contemporary. I think that's why I liked the look myself. While I prefer craftsman, it still had the feel of being more transitional or even slightly Asian and not screaming craftsman.

Here are some idea photos. (As you can see, they don’t really go with the table.)

Ha! So funny, we have almost the same table. I always liked it’s clean lines. It looks great with your kitchen!

Thanks. I think a transitional header is a great idea and it could look great.

I really think it will help define the two spaces without closing either one in.

I like the last header and the 3rd to last.

I really like the arched one too.

I also like the idea of an arched header with no walls. Wwhat are your thoughts on getting rid of the pantry so I can have island seating? I could do a between the studs pantry in the kitchen and a larger pantry in the family room. I really would like some seating at the island.

It could be done if you make the area as shown where the stools are open without a cabinet below. So you'd just have the one cabinet for the microwave. You'd also have to make the island narrower.

The distance in the drawing below between the end of the island and the table is 54". The island is 54" not including the countertop. The width of the island is 30" not including the countertop.

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I think you can mix your table with your look. If you go for painted cabinets, just make sure you pick a color that will work with the cherry.

I'm mixing mine with a dark brown stained quarter sawn island and white perimeter cabinets.

I like the seating in the open ended island. One minute re question: there is currently a door where the DW is. Can I turn it into a window, and get rid of the uppers there? Should I also remove the uppers on the left of the sink?

there is currently a door where the DW is. Can I turn it into a window, and get rid of the uppers there? Should I also remove the uppers on the left of the sink?

Yes you absolutely can turn it into a window. What about turning it and over the sink into a large window but keep the end cabinet?

The would be great, but I’d have to check the cost. The rear exterior is brick, seems like it could be an expensive job.

I noticed you reduced the size of the island from 60x 36 to 30x54. Do you think I could have 2 backless stools and an60x36 island? As I measure clearances, I have 48” on either side and 54” to the table.

Actually beuhl gave you a 27" deep island by 60" long, not a 36"deep.

You have 154"?

154" - 25.5" (cabinet depth with counters) = 128.5"

128.5" - 36" deep island = 92.5"

92.5" divided by 2 = 46.25" wide aisles

Your aisle widths for the depth of the island don't take into consideration the fact the stove will stick out further than the counters, so your actual aisle width will be about 4-6" less.

As for the length it appears you have a total of 274"?

274" - 25.5" (cabinet depth with counters) =248.5"

248.5" - 36" (absolute minimum space between table and wall) = 212.5"

212.5" - 42" (table width) = 170"

170" - 60" (length of island you want) = 110.5"

110.5" - 60" (space between table and island to allow for seats in both) = 50.5"

So yes if your measurements are correct, you have enough room to put in a 60" long island and give your diners at the dining table a couple of extra inches.

Sorry, you are correct, I misread the width and depth of buehl's island floor plan. Your numbers above are correct. looks like I can't go any wider than 30"....

No, but it does look like you can go 5' long based on your numbers so at least you will have 2 comfortable seats at the island.

I didn't follow the last island measurement discussion very carefully. Just wanted to mention that on the second KD layout the room width is shown as 159,5" not 154. Maybe that is correct or maybe the walls aren't straight. But if there are 5,5 additional inches I think the island can be deeper.

Good catch, Sena. I remeasured, and the room is 159.5" wide. So I guess, I can make the island a couple inches deeper (maybe 3-5" deeper?). I think the basic appliance layout was the toughest decision on this project. What should be my next step? Figuring out what uppers I need to have or figuring out width and depth of lower drawers and figuring out what will go in the cabinets?

A few discussions I bookmarked may help you figuring out drawer sizes/uppers.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2457034/everything-i-wanted-to-know-about-drawers

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ugh. I was gung-ho on the Buehl island plan. I just showed it to my husband and he thinks the kitchen is too small for an island. (And doesn’t like me the range so close to the dining area.) He likes the idea of a peninsula better. We feel like I am back to square one :( Most people on here were critical of of the peninsula plan, but I did like Sena’s last peninsula. Maybe that’s my starting point.

I had a peninsula for 35+years and hated it for over 30 years. I am so looking forward to my 62” island in my new kitchen/dining area that is slightly smaller than yours. I hated always walking around that peninsula, disliked that it was my only large prep space, and it was out of the cooking zone so it was one big catch all.

When we demolished the kitchen, we took off the peninsula first to physically “test drive” the placement of the new island; I was amazed by how much more space the kitchen seemed to have with the island instead if the peninsula.

Thanks, rantontoo. It’s helpful to have input from people with particular kitchen styles. I’ve seen lots of bad peninsulas - usually I think the problem is that they are not big enough, and therefore underutilized. Im envisioning a peninsula that is more substantial, that has the benefits of an island, except for the second walkway. I’m not sure how I feel about the peninsula = bottleneck argument. It’s a small kitchen now, but I don’t feel it bottlenecks. Converting one wall to a peninsula will at least open things up. With an island, My husband feels like our kitchen will become 4 isles, one on each side of the island, a peninsula going across the kitchen leaves a larger walking space within the kitchen.

My husband was not enthusiastic about an island either, but the grown kids and I tag-teamed him. I want to be able to sit down when I prep for long periods of time and the space was just not there to do so with a peninsula. I am really looking forward to having a large prep space a pivot/step away from my sink and cooktop. The serving flow will also be dramatically improved when we entertain buffet-style.

Your husband is wrong. An island will work so much more efficiently and better and give you MORE, not less room.

Who does most of the cooking?

The most efficient use of space for a kitchen is an L shape with or without an island.

And while the peninsula may not be a bottleneck now, once those school age kids start helping you more frequently in the kitchen, it definitely will become a bottleneck.

Cpartist zeroed in on when I really began to dislike my peninsula and we had a very generous walkway. We were always in each other’s way or standing in front of a drawer or upper cab that someone needed.

It looks like you will have an entrance into the kitchen with traffic between the main perimeter counters of the kitchen and the peninsula. Your peninsula is also separated from the main cooking area; and I suspect the peninsula will not be used much for prepping the way an island would be. With an island there are four sides to stand on when multiple people are prepping and that large work space is right in the main cooking zone.

In your opening comments you said, "I cook dining most nights, but these are very simple meals."

If you are the main cook, then you should make the decision as to how you want your kitchen to function, not your husband. You'll wind up deferring to him, and wind up with a kitchen that looks pretty but doesn't function well for your lives.

Yes, you are correct, I do most of the cooking. Should I consider scratching the peninsula or island altogether and just open the wall between kitchen and dining room and go with a small L shaped kitchen? It would only be about 9 x 13. Should I stick with a closed kitchen? I know I have to compromise, it’s just hard to chose what goes (open kitchen, counter level seating, preserving dining area.

If you ditch the island, you are going to lose storage and prep space. The island works...you have to decide if you are willing to push DH on something like Buehl’s design.

Having a husband who HATES change, I often wonder how many DHs have ruined great kitchen designs...lol.

Good thought rantontoo. My better half would live with a bare lightbulb and a ripped sofa if I allowed it because it gives light and the sofa is comfortable. LOL.

And even though my DH knows I've planned all this out to the nth degree, he too still sometimes questions things I'm doing in our new build. Must be the nature of the beast.

Yes, you are correct, I do most of the cooking. Should I consider scratching the peninsula

Yes.

or island altogether and just open the wall between kitchen and dining room and go with a small L shaped kitchen?

I love the idea of the island. It gives you more much needed storage, additional prep space, and also additional space to set out platters, etc. There is a reason that L shaped kitchens with an island are so popular.

It would only be about 9 x 13. Should I stick with a closed kitchen? I know I have to compromise, it’s just hard to chose what goes (open kitchen, counter level seating, preserving dining area.

What you have come up with using the header will help define your two areas without completely closing one from the other. The island will act as a barrier between you and those who want to sit and talk to you as you work.