My next vacation abroad? Haha, back within the week and gone again in another 6-7 weeks.

"Andi, formerly anne_ct (by the way, it's bad form to change a forum name
without transparency), I don't think your attitudes are very modern."

Tsk! Tsk! Fudd you're losing your touch. LOL I did broadcast it in a very long thread some time ago....just after adopting a new nic became a computer glitch necessity. Plus...if you'll click on my membership page you'll see it openly explained on that page as well. Maybe you're the one who needs glasses.

Thanks Pat, Right On!

Cherry...I wasn't criticizing your post about the war. I hope you know that. If not...I'm publicizing it now. :-) Actually...I was quite interested in your family history. Many, many moons ago I had a wonderful friend in Boston whose family emigrated to Canada under similar circumstances. She followed her fiance to Boston [leaving her family in Canada] and became a valued member of my then office. I've often wondered what happened to her. I moved to California. She remained in Boston and as is so often the case...we lost touch. As for honoring the veterans of that war...I honor our vets and any who fought in those wars. I'd be disappointed if Canadians didn't do the same. We, all, have much to be proud and thankful for.

You're out of line, Andi or Anne or whatever your name is. Name calling is so uncool.

Ya think? Well Sleeper...I think it's majorly uncool to continue to intentionally incite KT members in a manner that's not conducive to the pleasant atmosphere that's existed for so long here at the Table. In the computer world that I'm familiar with...that's the identifying behavior of a troll. Perhaps you have another name for it or aren't familiar with the behavior.

My name is Anne. Is there some reason you find that to be a challenge?

Elmer is not a troll. It's true his comments sometimes spark debate, but his view points have been very consistent over the years. Trolls purposely try to antagonize people for their own enjoyment, and I don't believe Elmer enjoys hurting people. I believe he's very opinionated and not afraid to say what he feels. It does contrast a bit of the "feel good" vibe at the KT occasionally but honestly I think it's refreshing.

There is a place for everyone at the KT.

You can only be "incited" if you allow yourself to react that way. I don't know your usual demeanor, Andi, but you seem to be the only one who got incited, and rather easily too.

I live in Chicago. When I told a French barber I lived there, when I visited Paris in the early eighties, he jokingly said bang bang. Chicago equals gangsters and Al Capone. I laughed that off. Now many think Chicago is a place where there is a shooting on every corner including an official I refuse to name. I get more Angry than embarrassed. Well, the Cubs did win the World Series last year. We Chicagoans must be doing something great which makes us proud.

My usual demeanor is that of a rather introverted 78 year old widow who's just "had it" with attacks on my country and the citizens therein who are usually commonly called the silent majority.

When a post by Fudd could incite a normally pleasant young woman...who has been a daily posting member here for the many years that I've been a member...to make accusations such as she did...something is wrong. And...it's not the first time he's done it. Nor, I doubt, will it be the last. IMO...he thrives on it. My guess is that he's now sitting back having a good laugh about this whole display.

Some days ladies...one just has to speak up and take a stance. You can find fault with me all you want. It won't change my opinion nor my defense of my country.

I must've missed the attacks on our country and our citizens. I saw a a lot of love expressed for both. I don't believe disapproval of Trump translates to disapproval of us. We the citizens are not responsible for his poor behavior. Well, I take that back--some of his supporters do enable his behavior by giving approval of it, defending it, and excusing it.

Elmer you said "But this practice is narrow and seems so out of touch with what's going on by so many others"..which others were you referring to? How is it a narrow practice?

We're direct neighbours. Canadians are the second largest group of tourists after Mexico to your country, so I am assuming that with immigration issues being what they are with Mexico, that of course the vast preponderance of flags/pins would be from Canada, no? 11 671 122 trips we took across the border, the next group is UK with 4.6 million visitors. I'd guess that there would be roughly the same percentage of flags/pins worn from the UK as from Canada.

We generally also wear our coats/packs/bags and other gear here at home, still happily wearing our flags. It's a pride thing, worn by both veterans and non combat residents. I've not served in any military force, but am the proud offspring of those who did. They as well as yourself have never gone back to places where they fought wars, battles, and kept the peace, but they do wear the occasional pin when travelling.. it denotes pride in themselves and their country served.

I'll wave the white flag of peace, and leave you be Elmer.

" a normally pleasant young woman...who has been a daily posting member
here for the many years that I've been a member...to make accusations
such as she did...something is wrong."

I see nothing wrong with anything she said. She said she is not political and probably just wants to enjoy her vacation rather than try to explain what is going on in the US. She is entitled to her feelings.

Perhaps...if I may suggest it...you should start at the top and read all the posts.

Hmmm .... I seem to remember someone here at the KT telling us that the way other people chose to dress was none of anyone's concern.

PS To all my fellow Canadians: I was in Park City this week and am happy to report the Roots store is doing a brisk business in Canadian beaver and maple leaf sweatshirts. I did not check the citizenship of the shoppers, there may have been an American or two sneaking out with a maple leaf or a beaver on his breast.

Anne/Andi, your "understandings" of me and of this topic fall short. Sorry. Impolite personal comments add nothing, better to avoid them.

Y'all can disagree with me if you like, on this topic or any other. No problem. I was sharing an observation, nothing more.

I dislike groups like, Italian American clubs, Polish American clubs, Ukraine, Arab, etc. IMO, such clubs contradict diversity.

Why do you say that brush? My workmates find these things on purpose. One is Taiwanese and the other German. Also, my stepmother has used one for Filipinos (even though she's a Filipina). I see them as some place for them to find a bit of understanding and past, while still embracing their new home. What am I missing? Just want to understand since I spend so much time among other nationalities. I'd hate to offend. Truly.

rob,

I agree it may serve a purpose for newcomers, but those groups have been around for over a century. Most members were born in the USA, not refugees.

Wonder why they stay members? Probably won't ever know, but it is interesting to think about.

Isn't it how we ALL work rob333? We have interests, similarities, and a general want to surround ourselves with familiar interests and language/lingoes? We often branch out and decide to learn Japanese, or try curry recipes, or climb the Himalayas thus broadening our own horizons, but we still come home, chat to our familiar friends and neighbours, exchange ideas, teach and learn, share and care.

Whether our "groups" have official names i.e. Portuguese Football Club, or the Martha Stewart Fan Club and we wear our "flag" of membership or not, we as humans feel we survive best when surrounded by our comforts. From kindergarten to death, we pick and choose, expand and reduce our closest, most connected to "members".

The area I live in now, near Toronto Ontario, there's a great diversity of cultures, but I find there's far less overlap of "clubs", than when I lived in Vancouver. Although there's Little Italy, Commercial Drive, China Town, the North Shore, etc in Vancouver, I found there was more cross over of cultures tasting, buying, and living together there. Things may well have changed there, but I don't see the same here in Toronto, and you're right rob333, it is interesting as to why :)

I had never thought about ethnic clubs being divisive. What causes some to continue strong, while others fade and die out as the group's members die or intermarry?

In Chicago the Greek, Irish, Italian, and Polish organizations continue; Irish and Polish more prevalent. Mexican-Americans have become more public in recent years. Some groups are strongly tied to their Roman Catholic faith. Various Northern European groups are less active; they centered around their Protestant backgrounds.

Do ethnic clubs exist -- and persist -- primarily where the members consider themselves 'outsiders' because of their ethnicity or religion?

Decades ago I had friends and neighbors who belonged to a group of Polish-Americans. They enjoyed foods and traditions of their native country. They attended church and supported it and did a great deal of volunteer work that benefited the entire community. They also had a "old folks home" as they called it then and the residents were treated beautifully. They assisted new immigrants in navigating their way around their new land. I admired them and their family values greatly.

Most of the clubs are exclusive, which contradicts diversity.

Reminds me of an old song "Although variety's the spice of life, a steady rhythm is the source..." Time & place for everything.

Snidely, when in America, the people you see wearing Canadian flag pins or backpack badges are most surely, traveling Canadians. But don't assume those you see wearing Canadian insignia overseas, are all Canadians. I know for a fact (from a relative who owns a large travel agency in Dallas) that many Americans taking trips abroad, go online to bùy a Canadian flag pin or patch to wear, not because they aren't proud to be American, but because there are too many crazies around these days who might act on their hatred of Americans, unfortunately.

amicus, Americans haven't been significant targets of terrorist attacks in Europe. The larger recent mass attacks have happened in public places in the UK, Belgium, France, Germany, Turkey and the one just a few weeks, ago, Spain. Victims have been locals and tourists when attacks happen in touristic areas. No specific anti-American connection to any of these recent ones has been mentioned.

There are numerous and easily found "American" facilities in these countries and throughout Western Europe, whether embassies and consulates, US military bases, schools, offices and facilities of US-owned companies, etc., and none of them have been targeted. It's not like travelling Americans need to assume false identities and avoid speaking English in public. Whatever anti-terror efforts are ongoing are taking place mostly in the background and life goes on as per normal. There are no outwardly visible changes to daily street scenes that I could detect in the major cities and transportation centers I've been to.

As I said I would, I spoke to two people displaying visible Maple Leaf symbols. I said Hi, like your (jacket, backpack, etc). The response from both was some form of "Yes, we want people to know we're Canadians, we're proud of that."

Europe is a vegetable soup of people everywhere, from everywhere, these days. EU rules permit nationals of one EU country to move to another at will, so all countries are more multinational than before (insofar as having migrants from other EU countries are concerned). But, people who have so moved and tourists don't seem to feel it necessary to have visible displays of their nationality as described. National origin (in the first instance, of European looking people) isn't that important or interesting as it once was. Unassimilated and poor African and Middle Eastern refugees and migrants, different story. That's the cause of many problems in Europe.

I think the conclusion I've reached about Maple Leaf wearers is a compelling one and the reasons given (and suggested) by supporters don't ring true. In my opinion. And of course, for me as for everyone always, I could be wrong but I don't think I am in this case.

I see no difference between a Dutch/Canadian Club, Polish/Canadian Club or a photography club, canoe club, etc.. You all have something you have in common. And people want to be with people they have something in common with.

No, these ethnic clubs are not the same as people just having 'a shared intrest' in 'whatever'. Would you join -- or be welcomed -- in the Norwegian Club because you love lutefisk? I think you have to have the right 'papers' there, and to join the Harvard Club or the Colonial Dames, etc.

Did you watch the TV series, "Indian Summers"? The club existed to show its members as 'superior' -- based entirely, and ridiculously, on country of orgin.

I didn't know it was a problem for ethnic groups to have their own clubs here in America. Well-to-do white Protestants with deep American roots have traditionally had their own segregated clubs too. They're called "country clubs".

Country clubs are an excellent example of 'divisive' -- which is Brush brought up in this thread. Whether these clubs are 'a problem' or not...in the eye of the beholder.

It's not that long ago that women were not welcome at many clubs.

Knights of Columbus (connected to Christopher Columbus) is an exclusive, men only Catholic organization.

Masonic Lodge is another example of exclusivity.

There are also the Lions and Lionesses clubs

My grandmother emigrated into NYC before 1900. Signs said: No Irish, No Jews, No Blacks. The polls as good as said, "No Women". Progress is slow, and we all want to feel 'special' -- in a good way!

Because of this thread, I paid attention to the crowds in Scotland (we're visiting the U.K. for a couple of weeks). I've only seen Canadian flags being worn/on backpacksnofntourists. No other flags.

Interesting.

And also: We've only run into one person who said something rather benign about my being an American. But the trip is young and we're headed for London soon, where anti-American sentiment is more overt.

Interesting indeed.

We spent part of a day passing through London. It's as busy and ethnically diverse as ever, maybe at times and in places even more so than New York. One's nationality? I don't think anyone cares because almost everyone is from elsewhere.

As I know you know, chloecat, a typical attitude of novice travelers is that there's something special for the locals in encountering someone from far away, as in encountering an American. Truth is, you're probably the 20th American that person has run into that day and it's the same for them day after day. Much as we all would like to be special little snowflakes, we're not.

Well, of course we're proud to be Canadian just as you're proud to be American. Canadians and American look and speak the same. When in Europe it's easier to tell if someone is from France, or Germany or England or Italy or Spain or....pretty much all they have to do is open their mouths. We open our mouths and the first reaction, I guarantee is that we are thought of as being from the US. We really don't want to be thought of as being American and honestly why should we? So yep, that Canadian luggage tag is firmly on my suitcase.

My kids do a lot of travelling and they wear the Maple Leaf on their luggage and are under strict instructions from their parents, as I suspect most young Canadians are these days, to never ever discuss the US, their politics or to make a comment about trump.

Eh? (LOL)

blfenton, I think you're missing what I'm saying. Maybe in a similar way, Austrians would prefer to not be mistaken for being German, nor French speaking Belgians as French, nor a Welchman as being English, etc. But few really care these days. Except, Canadians?

Don't expect me to festoon my appearance with American flags when I visit Canada or anywhere else. Because, like most other people - I really don't care what others know or don't know, assume or don't assume, about me or me about them, it hardly matters to most. Except, Canadians?

"are under strict instructions from their parents, as I suspect most young Canadians are these days, to never ever discuss the US, their politics or to make a comment about trump."

This is very, very silly and unnecessary. Another symbol perhaps of conflicted attitudes or misunderstandings?

After solving that extremely annoying intrusive R insertion habit some have, I'll get right on the Canadians and their flag thing that doesn't bother me in any way.

OK - bumping this back to the top. We've been back in the States for a few days, and here are my observations:

As I mentioned above, only one person slightly snarked at me for being American while we were in Scotland.

Once we arrived in London, though - it was all fine and dandy, until we were seated next to a group of Canadians at "our" corner pub. They were insistent to their (and our) server that they were NOT Americans. When all conversation in the place turned to the footy match on the TV, they and we shared some common ground with rooting for Tottenham Hotspur. When they deduced that I was American, they were quick to point out that they felt sorry for me, and that they were glad not to be Americans.

Make of that what you will. No Londoners had any problem with my Americanness.

"They were insistent to their (and our) server that they were NOT
Americans. When all conversation in the place turned to the footy match
on the TV, they and we shared some common ground with rooting for
Tottenham Hotspur. When they deduced that I was American, they were
quick to point out that they felt sorry for me, and that they were glad
not to be Americans."

Rude behavior!

Just adding that I wasn't aware of encountering any fellow Canadians on our recent trip overseas. However, in a restaurant we were seated at a table adjacent to an American woman and her daughter. After the unfamiliarity of navigating through countries where English is not the first language, the woman's speech was "music to my ears." So I struck up a conversation and had an enjoyable visit. We had recently come from visiting St. Stephen's Cathedral (this was in Vienna) and since the woman was seeing the sights, I suggested the nearby Cathedral. As I mentioned to her, it is so beautiful, that it is impossible to describe. Photos don't do it justice, but here is a small glimpse:

"...like most other people - I really don't care what others know or don't know, assume or don't assume, about me or me about them, it hardly matters to most."

Agreed. Assumptions hardly matter at all....

Is this thread an assumption about why someone else is doing, or thinking, a certain thing?

Idle pondering?

Amen to above. I am deeply ashamed of my country right now...but it is MY Country. We still have an awfully lot going for us that "lots" of Countries wish they had. When

the Canadians go to Florida for the winter (and just happen to get a lot of their

medical problems taken care of at the same time), that tells me something. But, to my knowledge, they aren't made "fun of".

I think England doesn't throw stones, because they have their own problems

and know the reality.

When we were in Canada this summer, I did experience some mild disdain for our being American. Nothing said rudely. Sometimes a slight sneer or a sarcastic glance sideways to another Canadian. I must say I was impressed with their children's table manners. Everywhere we went, you wouldn't even know there were children dining.

chloecat, you've experienced the same things and heard the same explanations I have. Same as what some of the Canadians on this forum have said.

Thanks to stacey for a good word - it's rude. Also disrespectful and obnoxious. Maybe someday this too common attitude and the consequent "in your face" displays will fade, but not before these people learn to be happy in their own skins for who they are, or despite who they are if that's how they feel. And without regard to who anyone else is or isn't. Much of the rest of the developed world has gotten to this place, they can too.

Yesterday's New York Times contains an excellent op-ed by Bret Stephens titled The Dying Art of Disagreement - seems relevant to this thread.

garryoak, that's a thoughtful piece. But it may be more relevant in the Football players kneeling thread?