I'm sort of getting a Yogi Berra vibe here - "Nobody goes to Facebook anymore, it's too crowded." :)

I was a frequent poster here in the olden days, before Spike sold out to Giant Media. There were warning signs even under his (mostly) benevolent rule, as the number of forums proliferated out of control (more forums were seen as drawing advertisers apparently), while most of the new forums saw little traffic and the likelihood of seeing relevant answers to questions (or even interesting discussion) declined. A GW specialty forum with a couple of posts per week is seen by many as a less attractive a place to hang out than a lively FB group with a dozen or more posts a day - can't imagine why.

Other changes over time at GW that stirred discontent included obtrusive ads, site policy allegedly giving ownership rights to user-posted photos and silliness about not being able to post links to sites seen as competing with GW.

Social media of various kinds has taken a toll on online forums in general (membership/interest has dropped off for some focusing on political or health issues, for example). It's not just GW experiencing a decline.

The houseplant sub-culture is very popular with millennials. This niche of plant enthusiasts do not post on GW nor FB, but a lot of their discussions occur on instagram posts. Just follow the hashtag #monsteramonday for an idea.
They aren't going out and buying rose body bags from a local nursery, but instead probably buying a little monstera from a boutique plant shop.

The clutter of gardening is not stylish enough. The style these days is very pared down, minimalist. One house plant will do.

So, Mara, no longer should we fill each window to overflowing with houseplants? Oh my, I must downsize ;)

My cat took care of that. He started munching on everything. He is 11 and hasn't ever bothered anything until this year. Since most of them were not good for him to eat, they got kicked outside. I have a few sprigs of Golden Pothos up out of reach.

Sherry, my cat wants to party with your cat. He's been assaulting a Christmas cactus. I can't have anything nice here because of you! said the grumpy old lady.

No over flowing windowsills of plants. One perfectly staged , perfectly shaped plant placed aesthetically perfectly, nowhere near the appropriate light source, and when it develops a mar, noticeably lost leaf, or etiolation of form, it is quickly replaced with another plant. No fretting or nursing needed. no sentimental feeling of loss needed.

Well great! My Christmas cactus are blooming and I was going to bring them inside. Everything is crammed into my greenhouse. I think I'll just redo it and turn it into a she shed (I hate that term, but it is appropriate) and forget about starting seeds.

How about Shed Chic? That is what my shed is called . Unfortunately, my son lives in it now. He is not one of the Millennialist that Gardengal talks about.....unfortunately.

Sheesh, mines still in his old bedroom upstairs (and gf) - also not one of these mythical millenials.

I have just acquired a second (preloved) greenhouse though.

I am thinking alpines, plunge beds, tecophilea and a much desired narcissus waiteri...

Camp, the Mythical Millennialist do exist. Some are coming over today in an hour to pick up their new piece of very heavy minimalist slab dinning room table and matching benches from our shop today($$$$$$$) , so we are cleaning up as if it were mom coming over. No amount of cleaning will make my shop clean. I guess I could see some carefully arranged Ikebana on it. I can'r see hours of in-depth political or art conversation , or even a poker game ( not very comfortable). I just design and build the stuff to their wishes..

wantonamara--I'm glad for you & congratulations. Love those big jobs for people who have resources. I could use a job like that right now$$$$$$$. I'm working on small commissions, heavy on the hours and light on the pay --- there's a cliff staring into the abyss after those are finished.

Wantonamara, you made me laugh with your "one plant on a windowsill" description! One thing I shall never be is a minimalist, either by design or by accident. Give me the windowsill overflowing with plants and flowers (and a house overflowing with memorabilia and clutter and pet hair) any day. But I'm happy for you that the minimalists decided to spend the big bucks at your store!

Where I live, I am more than grateful for not only the millenialists, but the retirees with large investment accounts. No big corporation wants to headquarter in my state. I'm amazed at how the small businesses of craftsmen are our lifeblood. I am grateful people are willing to spend $$ on craftsmenship and uniqueness, rather than just dropping by Rooms To Go! The craftsmen shops actually seem to be growing, and it is so encouraging. For example, these shoes have been the minor darlings of NYC, at $400+ a pop, and they're keeping an old business alive and some old-fashioned cobblers employed. Yea! Keep building, wantonamara!

(I would love to have some of the shearling-lined boot moccasins. Perhaps during a year I've been extra-good, and frugal.)

Quoddy Shoes

Not all small businesses are run by minimalists. The folks who run the organic sustainable farm where we buy our pasture-raised chickens and other things have more clutter than we do, and I love it - it's homey. Ditto with the artist who makes stained glass treasures in her home shop. Many more like these

Watonamara, the last millennial obsession for indoor plants was the fiddle leaf fig. Before that, indoor epyphites.

OH yea, the succulents in hanging glass balls craze and glass pots without holes. Then they wonder why they die.

But hey guess what is re-appearing (like a nasty rash) in hipsterville - macrame. I kid you not - only in brighter colours. I may even have a 70s moment myself (yep, I did my share of plantpot holders) and festoon the greenhouse, thereby infuriating all those taller than myself - ie. everyone in my household. Previously, my most potent home defence strategy was my (nicotine free) puffer - cue exaggerated handwaving and deep breathing as though I was releasing vaporous farts into the atmosphere and not benign grape and aniseed e.cig juice. Just makes me up the voltage and puff harder.

I'm glad I didn't see this thread sooner.

"facebook have made it increasingly necessary for you to be constantly logged on to get updates - a web within the web."

Finally, the blase assumption that everyone is now 'on' FB so public broadcasting companies such as the BBC operate on this platform exclusively for some things, simply enraged me.

Yes! Ok, not going to write a book about fakebook...but, in my mind, completely evil and will ruin everything that made the early to middle years of the web the positive transformative force in society that it was. Yes, their "plan" is to take over not only the WWW, but also your entire life: Facebook iPhone Listening into our Conversations for Advertising TEST - YouTube

So, what was the early web? It was 1) truly decentralized, originally of course, garden web was started by people who just wanted to create a site for that purpose (discussing gardening) 2) you could be anonymous and the corollary 3) not all about invading your privacy and 4) not, in and of itself, pursuing some societal or social agenda. Now I have to qualify #4 by saying I am NOT an alt-righter. But I think in some cases they have valid concerns about so much of the web being concentrated into so few platforms for distribution, and the curtailing or censoring of certain content. They are the ones screaming the loudest about it: mind you I'm not even looking at it from their side of the political aisle...there are what could be called "alternative left" POVs on youtube, for example, who seem to have their subscribers mysteriously disappear. This is something that will only get worse with net neutrality being shot down...but I digress.

I simply cannot envision posting about my garden under my real name. I know of multiple thefts of rare plants that have occurred in the US (and Canada). Never mind my generally brazen personality!

BUT! this is all shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic! Wherever it so happens that people are discussing gardening, as the more realistic voices here are saying, it doesn't really matter. Or it won't matter in a decade or two. Clearly in a world being so dumbed down, horticulture is never going to be what it was. And certainly not 'advanced' horticulture...in the USA at least. The commonwealth world may be able to weather the winds of an entire generation becoming instant gratification obsessed zombies. But I'm not even sure of that.

Anyhow back to the effect on GW, clearly a lot of what I considered the important posters have just called it quits. Due to old age or indifference. If Pineresin, "M.F.", is posting on Facebook...do let me know. But I doubt it. I would be happy to be wrong. I think the perceived migration is mostly just people who have a casual interest in gardens as a part of general domiciliary matters. Not to put that down, but it's not what drives me. The people who are winning Ontario suburban garden of the year or whatever LOL.

420 - Michael Pollan has claimed that weed growers are possibly the most talented horticulturalists of his generation. Unsurprisingly so since it is possible to harvest a crop 4 times a year and the amount of money involved is remarkable,

Just, no. No no no. So wrong. It's a weed - literally! An easy plant to grow if you can keep it happy with the simple things it wants. The talented horticulturalists, among others, are the people at Longwood who produce thousands of 3' tall blue poppies every year, to bloom in March in a climate a 1000 miles or so away from anywhere they'd actually be happy. But Michael Pollan was always an expert on everything!

I'm an older millennial. Honestly I only came here while trying to learn about how to care for and landscape the yard around my first (and current) house. Most people my age are either living with their parents or renting with roommates while playing a ton of video games or partying a lot. A few of us got lucky or worked extremely hard to get in a position to be able to balance a young family, a job, and a house, which doesn't leave much time for other stuff

Somehow I've become obsessed with learning about plants, to the point where now I'm reading gardening/landscaping books and prepping and planning beds for next year. I think gardening and having a place to garden is more of a privilege than it used to be and people just have other stuff on their minds.

I was never one of the 'important posters' here & certainly no horticultural expert.

When the Perennials Forum was more active (and it was one of the more active forums), it seemed to be more populated with people who live up east, mostly NE and several NW; our situations down here present different conditions, plant preferences, challenges and attitudes so often when I check in I am reading about plants I can't grow or haven't experience with so I don't have anything to contribute more often than not. When I first came here there were many old-timers which kept the forum active but sometimes it felt a little clique-ish.

Maybe one thing that happens now is people check in regularly, don't see much activity and go away thinking "gee, kind of dead". I do that myself. If thats the case, then if people checking in started a thread instead of moving on, maybe others would write and this once very active forum would become active again with some conversations.

I'm just guessing of course but activity often creates more activity, or so you'd think.

I am a young Gen-X member (early 40s) who has found GardenWeb invaluable as I learned to care for my own small garden in the last 10 years. It helped make gardening a hobby for me. The people I spend time with who are my age in the Boston area tend to have small houses with small yards. Most of us have young children and two-career households. My friends mow the lawn and trim the hedges and might buy a few flowering plants, but gardening just isn't a hobby that most people have time for. If a plant dies, they just shrug and pull it out. I'm a bit of an oddball in that respect; even though I too have a full-time job and kids that keep me constantly busy, I have always liked learning about and researching plants. But I talk about gardening with my mom and mother-in-law, not my friends.

Although I believe it's true that people are migrating to Facebook, I don't know anyone who uses Facebook in that way (and I'm probably in the biggest FB demographic--younger people are just on instagram and snapchat all day). We all just use FB to see what our high school and college friends are up to.

@ Skip. That's how it happened to me... well, not quite. I gardened every piece of dirt I ever lived at but getting a real home did step up the game. A home and kids will make all sorts of new activities become attractive and what was not an interest becomes a joy.

if people checking in started a thread instead of moving on, maybe others would write and this once very active forum would become active again with some conversations.

Houzz could help in this regard if 'they' would enable readers to follow a thread and so get notification of new posts to a thread even if the interested party had not posted to it. It is so common place in other forums to have a 'tab' or the like maybe called "Thread Tools" and within it have the option to "Subscribe to this Thread". This feature for sure would generate more traffic.

Interesting points in the latest handful of posts. Got me thinking about how the tide is turning, at least to some degree, in that many people, both younger and older, want to return to urban environments due to various factors (e.g. walkability/non-automobile transportation opportunities, shorter commutes, proximity to grocers/restaurants/entertainment, etc). This would not bode well for gardening overall, at least not as the majority of us on this forum tend to view it, although there is opportunity there for different types of gardening - rooftop, community plots, etc. I've posted before that the current trend toward edible gardening is encouraging!

In my area I have nothing but encouraging things about gardens/agriculture. We're an area where the younger people are leaving regular jobs to start organic farms. Being young and close to the land is a growing demographic here. It's nearly impossible to be a restaurant of any size (with the exception of fast food chains) and not use local produce on your menu. Winter menus use winter roots and vegetables, spring menus use spring vegetable, etc. Even the cheaper restaurants use local produce. It's not just a $$$$ phenomenon. There may not be a main emphasis on ornamental gardens, but the two blend together to create an environment up here that is very interested in gardening issues like natives, pollinators, etc.

The store linked to below, not far from me, is an example. College educated, but now operating an organic farm and store that they took over in their late 20's. I met the owner on a flight, and she said her mother was initially very discouraged that she chose to get a college degree in agriculture. But, it's what she wanted to do, and you were supposed to go to college, right?

Sheeptscot General Store

My friends son is headed to maine to farm the 420 way. He has a college education too. LOL.

RE: rouge21_gw(5b Canada (but I am betting 6 and climbing to 7 with climate change))

I get notifications. I don't remember how. If you are interested I may be able to look it up. You are correct in that it is not obvious.

But 'albert' are you sure you get notifications on threads for which you *haven't* contributed ie posted to?

Notifications are available only for threads to which you have contributed. And sometimes even then the notification will be hit or miss.

As an aside, some forums still seem to have a very active following - Houseplants, Cacti and Succulents, Adeniums and Container Gardening for example. Veggies and Tomatoes more seasonally. These may represent more of a trend or increased interest in this type of gardening compared to the more typical outdoor ornamental landscape gardening that is reflected in the Perennials, Trees and Shrubs forums. Gardening on a much smaller scale :-)

>If Pineresin, "M.F.", is posting on Facebook...do let me know<

You miss the constant complaints that American common names being used on threads here were "incorrect"? And the recurring recommendations to plant species conifers in every situation asked about*? As in the right common name for Albizzia julibrissin is pink siris and not silk tree? And Arizona cypress is what you want to plant in the middle of a small patio?

*Along with associated dismissals of cultivars?

>So wrong. It's a weed - literally! An easy plant to grow if you can keep it happy with the simple things it wants<

Not so much indoors - especially if hidden away inside a windowless enclosure. And even outdoor plantings may need to have exposure to daylight manipulated in order to induce flowering in a timely manner.

But I would say the nerdiest plant pursuit has long been orchid growing. Rock gardeners are also frequently involved in trying to coax good responses, even mere survival out of plants with very specific requirements. In fact there's a convention that hobby gardeners may pass through a progression of from plants like beans through trees and shrubs to end finally with alpines. With level of difficulty increasing.

Running a farm and general store sounds ideal deannatoby. I probably couldn't handle the unpredictable nature of being a farmer, with all my income relying on the success of my crops, but I'd probably rather farm or work a homestead than go to work inside all day or live in a city.

Property and the cost of living is expensive here. There's a 5 acre "farm" for sale 4-5 houses down the road from me, set in a clearing in the woods, with a 2 bed, 1 bath, 1000sq ft house which needs lots of work, selling for $450,000. That's actually not a terrible price for the amount of land, so I'm assuming there is something wrong, like the septic system has to be redone or there is a buried oil tank or something.

No more irritating than stating the largest growing example of any tree suggested as if that was a typical size to expect in one's garden. Or the constant remarking on the lack of hardiness of typical regional landscape staples due to the occasional damage or dieback experienced by one freak winter.

RE: "notifications". rogue and gardengal are, as expected, correct and I am wrong. I was confusing "notifications" with the incrementation of a comment counter number in my "recent activity" page.

That is to say, I get a flag as it were, rather like a notice, but I don't get a "notification".

>Got me thinking about how the tide is turning, at least to some degree, in that many people, both younger and older, want to return to urban environments due to various factors (e.g. walkability/non-automobile transportation opportunities, shorter commutes, proximity to grocers/restaurants/entertainment, etc).

In the last 20 years, net urban flight across the US temporarily reversed for 3 years total.

It is now, if anything, accelerating to make up for lost time.

Despite what urban planners keep trying to convince people to like, only the young and single and old and empty-nester value “walkability” to retail and public transportation over a yard and a quick drive to the grocery store.

Our trees actually do get as big as the label says. And you know what? It makes my yard GORGEOUS. Everyone who visits remarks on how wonderful and peaceful the yard feels because of the 80-100’ trees.

The interest in vegetable growing doesn’t translate to an interest in ornamentals.

That's me, Embo - although it's fair to say that my gardening trajectories have been anything but a linear progression...but yep, found myself back on the Scottish Rock Gardening boards after a multi year hiatus (and second greenhouse). DiL does orchids (absolutely not for me though).

Perfectly true about indoor cannabis growing - any fool can bring in a crop or two...but doing it over and over in a limited (and wholly inappropriate space), with all the problems that entails (spidermites, budrot, pythiums...not to mention the techie world of lighting) requires total attention to detail - much more difficult than chucking a few veg seeds around the allotment.

Mmmm - thread beef - generally sadly lacking on (polite) US message boards...so unlike in the UK where a mild rebuke can carry on for pages, years with hundreds of scathingly sarcastic and bitter posts...fun fun fun.

I don't really see that space is much of a requirement for gardening (or money either). The humble auricula was grown to utter perfection on tiny windowsills found in handloom weaver's cottages, while a small stone trough can hold a dozen bejewelled alpines. Pot gardening (as in container) has always been my main interest. Tiny bulbs, for example, always do better in the easily manipulated conditions of terracotta pots in a plunge bed or dedicated bulbframe...and take up inches, as opposed to acreage.

Who cares if the interest in edible gardening doesn't necessarily translate to ornamental gardening - it's still gardening and it's still a good thing, and it still might spur an interest in other types of gardening! e.g. someone up-post made a valid comment about interest in natives, pollinators. Now that I have a really big veggie/fruit garden, I find myself more interested in that aspect of gardening, mostly because I have a lot to learn outside of the basics, especially when it comes to fruit growing. It's all good. Um...the young and single and old empty-nester make up a LOT of the U.S. population - baby boomers, anyone? Things are changing all around - housing, transportation, economy, technology, housing trends - and change may very well affect the ability and desire to partake in whatever hobby X is for a person.

I started visiting here daily back before usernames were even required. For many years Google almost any gardening topic and Gardenweb was near the top hit returned. After the advent of houzz Gardenweb is frequently not on the first page that Google pulls up. I have no thoughts on why.

Bloody Pinterest for a start.

Thanks for the reminder. Haven't been on Pinterest for at least six months - it was very much a fleeting fancy. I seem to have amassed 1,500 followers in my short, obsessive time there though...added some more pins just for the heck of it...

I was going to bring up that I was surprised no one had mentioned Reddit's forums yet - but I checked and see that spedigree had indeed done so back in September. There seem to be a whole lot of posters there who like the traditional forum style - side by side with every kind other topic you could ever want to discuss, including the most explicit stuff you could ever want.

Breaking news...Facebook wants the youth...

It might be challenging to grow "weed" to a very level of productivity indoors. Getting the most out of the system inputs. But that would be true of ANY crop. It would be true if you were trying to grow wheat, corn or soy in a big building. You'd have to keep out insects, control day length, etc. etc. etc. But it's still not a fundamentally difficult plant to GROW, that's why contraband grow operations, indoor and outdoor, have been a feature of marijuana culture since the very start of its prohibition.

OTOH, if people could only that particular high from say, growing a member of the cinnabarina rhododendron subsection of the genus, it was be a FAR less common psychoactive substance! (which I sure don't recommend anyone try to discover, because they are very toxic)

The ease (or otherwise) of cultivation is not any sort of driver of innovation, David...but large amounts of finance, an enthusiastic consumer base and a slightly nerdy marriage of high-tech and horticulture has created a class of grower who has come to some plant expertise through none of the usual channels...with the benefits of considerable investment while maintaining the freedom of independent amateur...and this has led to some really interesting collisions...which has been also been noted by WildHaven. I swear to you, David,, back when I was floundering about with propagation lights and spidermite, it was the cannabis growing forums which had the most detailed and useful information about light spectrums, for example...as well as breeding (feminisation) and nutrition...couched in totally accessible language since they are also not rooted in academic or scientific obscuro-speak. Course, you do have to put up with frequently inane postings (and posturings)...but, as another source of horticultural know-how (and I disdain no formats of educational use), they can be quite eye-opening.

I have met cannabis growers and was amazed on the setups and research the growers put into it. Helped me a lot with my house plants.

I don't disagree with any of this. We are surely indebted to the marijuana subculture for a lot of indoor plant growing technology and advice, and the economies of scale on the technology. Doesn't alter the fact it's an easy plant to keep happy at the end of the day, which is one reason it is so popular. I'd suggest that fact IS an indirect driver of innovation; although, if, again, you had to grow Rhododendron xanthocodon to get 'baked', there would be other lines of innovation. Clandestine refrigerated grow facilities LOL.

I'd suggest coca as the obvious counter example proving my point. I'm going to suppose it is 1) slower growing, especially from seed 2) you need more biomass to produce the commercially-desired end product and 3) it is difficult to grow to a productive size outside a tropical highland climate...as reasons it never took off for clandestine grow operations the way Cannabis did.

Agree with many points above. I've always chuckled a bit when weed growers go on like this is a terribly difficult plant to grow - when it's basically throw down a seed, grow a Christmas tree. Not to dismiss anyone's efforts and innovative ways of getting a plant to flower, growing indoors or in their closet, or what have you. But that's what plant enthusiasts do to try to get an outcome.

I remember online they were going on about the "FIM" technique - which I learned stands for "'&*#! I Missed". Basically, so the story goes, Mr Eff was trying to to a normal pruning with his Christmas tree, and missed - pruning in a slightly different area. Anyway, this 'miss' resulted in the Christmas tree branching out noticeably more. Everyone was going on like this was the greatest discovery - and all I could think was this was a discussion about Pruning 101.

^^ LOL, yep, probably the first concept explained in a "Pruning for Dummies" book

People who need to know a particular tree wants to grow over 60 ft. tall where conditions permit are those wanting to plant the same kind where there is room for one about 15 ft. tall. Something that happens a lot, particularly when many appear to think "big tree" = 15 ft. The physical demonstration of genetic programming recorded by those measuring fully developed examples illustrates the inherent character of trees being considered. Doesn't matter if they don't all grow 100 ft. tall everywhere, when even half that would overwhelm the planting site.

Or that it might take 50 years for them to get big. It costs thousands of dollars to hire a qualified tree service to remove one big tree in a developed setting, where it can't just be sawed through at the base and allowed to fall where it may. And left to rot. Why ever choose a tree for an inadequate space, when a smaller kind could have been planted instead? Denial that a particular kind does often loom large does not prevent this problem from developing down the road.

Plants that burn - or worse - every time there is a sharp winter may not really qualify as landscape staples. Certainly not as the ironclad, fail-proof unchanging purchases probably nearly all non-hobbyists are visualizing at the time they bring landscape plants home and install them. Hence the value of pointing out specific items aren't, in fact totally hardy - as in never damaged by cold. This is why there are hardiness rating systems and hardiness categories like fully hardy, half hardy and so on - people want to know where each plant falls on the spectrum, what to expect.

''...like fully hardy, half hardy and so on ...'' We need 'full hardy', 'half hardy' and 'fool hardy'.