Extra Matte Floor Issues? (Loba 2K Invisible Protect)

6 years ago

So I will probably be putting down Loba 2K Invisible Protect on my floors this week. It's similar in sheen to Bona Naturale, which is very matte.

I don't really care if my floors are matte or not. It's just that when I asked the guy at my hardwood flooring store the best way to achieve the tone of the freshly sanded white oak look, he recommended Loba 2K.

However, after researching, I see that there's a lot of complaints about a dull/hazy/dirty looking floors because of the matte sheen. I was wondering if anyone has worked with Loba 2K and, if so, whether I should be concerned.

Featured Answer

PRO

Cancork Floor Inc.

6 years ago

As G&S offers. The matte finishes have the hazing effect because of the chemicals they use to keep it dull looking. These reflect light in such a way that it appears "dull". There is no way around this. It is part of the chemical/optic properties of matte.

Back in the old days, the gloss level had to do with BUFFING. The higher the gloss, the more buffing of the finish (like buffing a car). This is a PHYSICAL polishing to create ultra smooth. This no longer happens.

Today's gloss levels are ALL ABOUT the chemical mix to create super gloss, gloss, semi gloss, satin, matte and ultra matte. The more extreme the finish (super gloss and gloss as well as matte and ultra matte) the HARDER it is to LIVE with the finish.

Super shiny = see every speck of dust and every little scratch. Very low gloss = see every foot print and have a hazy finish during certain parts of the day. These are the realities of the "extremes".

Personally, if someone wants shiny I suggest working with semi-gloss. If someone wants low(er) gloss I suggest satin. These are the two "middle" finishes. They are the easiest to live with.

As G&S suggests, if you don't like the final gloss level of the Loba Invisible, you can always throw on a single coat of Supra AT in the Satin. It will bump up the gloss level a snick and *should remove most of the hazy look - but some may be left over.

The Loba 2K Supra AT offers a very natural look as well. Depending on the species of wood, it might need the sealant (to prevent tannin pull) prior to the final two coats of finish.

I highly recommend you ask for/pay for a mock-up on a panel (3ft x 3ft panel of hardwood matching your species) finished EXACTLY as your floors will be. Then put it down on the floor and live with it for a few days (make sure you view it in early morning/evening lighting to see if the haze shows up).

That's the easiest way to figure out of you will be stuck with a hazy matte finish or not.

Comments (24)

PRO
G & S Floor Service
6 years ago
No need to be concerned. The dull/hazy/dirty look is common with all matte finish: polyurethane and hard wax oils. Just wipe up with a non-diluted hardwood floor cleaner. You can always top coat with Supra AT.
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Questions about Loba Invisible & Supra
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My only experience is with Loba products, so I won't comment much on the Bona except to say that if you have read reviews of any product yellowing over time, then I would say no, there is nothing you can add to prevent that. Be very cautious of any product containing oil, as it will yellow in time, and even some products claiming to be "waterborne" can dry down to an oil base, so read up on each product before committing. In terms of the Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT (which stands for "Advanced Technology" versus Loba's non-AT version of the same product which is still sold, so make sure you get the AT as it is more durable), the company does claim that it can be used alone to help create a natural finish that is a little lighter than other products in the lineup, but I have followed the stories of people here at Houzz who have tried to use it alone in that manner, and it generally has not worked well. In one case, someone even had to sand down a first coat of 2K Invisible AT and start over using Loba's WS EasyPrime first. The WS EasyPrime will not only prevent side bonding of the wood which could be an issue for you, but it will also help that first layer of 2K Invisible AT to go on much more smoothly. Knowing what I know about how Loba products work, I would never personally recommend anyone using the waterborne products without the WS EastPrime underneath. Is it going to darken your wood? Yes, faintly, but the wood itself is going to darken as it ages over time, and that is your REAL problem more so than which brand of finish you use. Oak, including white oak, will turn amber as it ages, and it will never be the same as it when it was first sanded and installed, regardless of coating type. If you want a lighter look permanently, you need to use a bleaching product or a whitewash product before you even start putting a top coat on to help maintain that lighter color. Another issue with any Loba product is that it has powerful self-leveling compounds which can induce dripping on the vertical stairwell risers. You need to talk to whomever your coating application serviceperson is and make certain that they have experience working with stairways with these flooring products to prevent dripping and other issues. The "2K" in the Invisible Protect AT means it is catalyzed using two parts combined right before applying. Loba claims a 10-minute working window for that catalyzed coating before it starts to set up, but I found it to be more like a 5-minute window once you lay it on, so if your provider is not familiar with working with 2K products, you could end up with a huge mess if they keep trying to go back and work that product. You have to touch it twice and move on--roll it once against the grain, then roll it with the grain and move on. For larger areas like floors, a 2K product ideally requires 2 people to keep the job moving before the edges start curing. Some contractors will be accustomed to using flooring coatings with a squeegee, t-bar type of implement to move it around, and that's just not the best approach with Loba's water-based products. You preferably need to use their specified roller to get the proper coverage. On a stairwell you could probably do some brush work, but you need a really super soft brush like a Purdy Extra Soft to avoid leaving brush marks. You can message me through my profile, and I'd be happy to talk with you in person more about your situation. I would also advise against going with the super-matte finishes. Everyone seems to want that these days, but I can tell you that a bit of sheen or even gloss is going to hold up better for you in terms of the longevity. Loba is a really strong flooring coating that should give you around 30 years of durability, but the semi-gloss or gloss may look better longer as the flooring is used, and that is true of virtually any coating brand. Also with matte, most coating specialists recommend to wait and put that on as the last coat with the gloss underneath or else you could end up with a cloudy finish. These coatings are all made to be clear, and the way that they make them matte is they add a diffusing particle in there to make it more cloudy.
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I'm not seeing any ambering. What I'm seeing is a wood that has been made "wet" from a sealer/finish product. Ambering is much more ORANGE than what you are seeing. To test my theory, go ahead and use a WET (water only) cloth to wipe down a tread. You will notice the wet wood will look identical to your sealed treads. That will be the same colour as your finished oak treads. Your use of the WS EasyPrime is perfect for white oak. The Loba 2K Invisible Protect does not need a sealer. When you purchased the Invisble Protect, did you indicate that you wanted to use the sealer TOGETHER with the finish??? I would not add anything to your finish. In fact, I suggest you sand off the EasyPrime and start with the Invisible Protect. See if you can get the SUPER PALE finish you are looking for. But be aware. Your treads are different in presentation than your wood floor (both the cut and the width and obviously the selection of heart wood vs sap wood). The colours you are seeing are completely normal and natural to white oak in a "clear finish" (water borne products are normally rated as "clear"). The EasyPrime is showing you the colour you would get under a traditional water based polyurethane. You need to try some Invisible Protect ALONE on a tread to see if you can get a better match to your factory finished floor (which is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT BTW). Loba doesn't normally sell products that amber. You have to SPECIFICALLY request/purchase their AMBERING additive - which you did not do. That means the colour variation is down to the wood itself. And to be clear, your treads, over their lifetime, will slowly FADE. Yep. Wood traditionally gets LIGHTER when exposed to light. The oil based finishes are the one's that turn a STRONG ORANGE as they age. White oak can fade quite nicely. I think the WS EasyPrime is giving you the slightly darker look of "wet wood". I would guess the Invisible Protect will give a lighter presentation. https://www.loba.de/fileadmin/site_structure/produkte/11474/us/BRO_US_11474_2K_InvisibleProctect_AT_Flyer_US.pdf
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OK...here's what we KNOW about Invisible. I can almost guarantee that's what you have. Invisible is the only one in matte. We KNOW that 2-3 COATS of Invisible can look hazy. They use material in the finish (aka chemicals) that diffuse the way light works through....kinda like frosted glass in a bathroom = hazy as heck). That's SUPER annoying...which is how we know this...people have complained about it. Now...if the installer had used the Loba 2K Supra AT with GLOSS for the first 1-2 coats and then FINISHED with the Invisible (matte) you would have had a matte finish SITTING on CRYSTAL CLEAR finish. The tendency to have it go hazy = much less. The OTHER issue (foot prints) has to do with MATTE finishes. All matte finishes have this issue (to one degree or another). The MATTE'NESS' of the finish is the background. It is SOOOOO dull (how dull SJ?), it is SOOOO dull the light shine of SKIN OILS shows up SHINY. Oh...dear....that sounds like what is happening....sigh...no one explained that. OK. We KNOW the finish is WORKING. How? They CLEAN UP nicely. The prints LEAVE as soon as you clean. Perfect. Excellent. Wonderful. That's how it works. Cleaning the floors = clean floors. The ISSUE is the SHINY prints on DULL floors. The other issue, of water residue = water hardness or scaling. This is a known issue with plenty of water sources. The colour of the floor will dictate how well/poorly water spots show up. For most people who do not have a whole home water softener (that's most of us), they have to towel down their wet floors. Yep. As you mop (which should not be SUPER wet...just snick wet...barely wet...almost dry...RIGHT???) you will go back over the water with CLEAN TOWELS. You will 'wipe on; wipe off, grasshopper'. That's how you STOP hardwater from leaving the whitish haze behind. This is more commonly seen on dark(er) floors and with matte finishes. It's hard to see hardwater residue on natural white oak in a semi-gloss finish. How to fix your issues???? You need a buff and coat with a higher gloss finish. Yep. That's how you get rid of 90% of your issues. You pay for a buff and coat with Loba 2K Supra AT in satin (which ranks as a LOW gloss satin...it's quite dull but without the foot print issues) or a semi-gloss. That's your fix. The Invisible is 100% doing it's job. It has properties (super dull = matte) that irritate you. To fix the irritation, you either fix the gloss level or you look at why it bothers you (don't take that as cheek...I'm not...I'm just mentioning the TWO sides of this coin...the finish and the human looking at it). The hardwater residue is the 10% that requires a different type of fix...
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Thanks very much for that G&S Floor Service, I’ve had a look at the product range on the official website and we don’t seem to have Nordicseal/Naturaseal as well as Bona Craft oil. I’ve attached a screenshot of the product range and Prim Intense for reference. I had the site inspection done this morning and he tells me that regardless of methods dark water damage marks can’t be removed or toned down much - he tells me bleaching causes problems down the track. 3 options were given to me: Bona White (1-2 coats) and then 1-2 coats of Bona Traffic (HD) - he seems more comfortable working with non-HD product as HD dries too fast he says. If 2 coats of Bona White are applied then only 1 coat of BT (HD). He tells me there is not much difference between HD and non-HD in terms of durability. Staining with non-Bona products as Bona staining products are not very good and then finished with BT (HD). He also doesn’t recommend going with this method as it takes much longer (1 full day working solo) - his boss tells me that for intensity of white effect Drifast stain and Prime Intense are not as good as 2 coats of Bona White. The guy who came out tells me Bona White can be applied by a roller and would be easier. Natural wood colour - by sanding and finish with 3 coats of BT or BT HD. I get the impression that they would want to do the job in an easier way since these guys work solo. They tell me that they’d take 1-1.5 weeks for 145sqm floor size.
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VTMT
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Greetings Misaltow

Wondering if you ended up using the Loba 2K Invisible Protect? I am about to embark on this journey and this product seems to have everything I am looking for...but did find one blog that loved it at first, but 6 months later, it was not providing any protection...oily food permeating the wood and staining....so any insight you can give would be much appreciated.
Kate Smith
6 years ago
I'm also interested to know whether you ended up using the Invisible Protect. I used it on my kitchen floors over a dark walnut stain and so far, I absolutely love it. It's only been 2 weeks though, and I'm hoping it holds up for longer than 6 months! I wanted the finish to look exactly as it did right after staining, as we're going for a modern farmhouse look.

I first used the Loba WS 2K Supra Extra Matte and was not pleased with the results. It had too much of a sheen from different angles. If you looked straight down at floor it was fine, but looking at it from the dining room or hallway, it had a reflective sheen so that you couldn't even see the floors that I worked so hard on refinishing! So I went back and purchased the Invisible and applied two coats on top of the Extra Matte (after a light sanding with 150 Grit). I applied using a microfiber roller which I definitely recommend instead of using a brush, as I did initially. I was hesitant using a roller but it was actually a lot easier than using a brush. After the first coat of the Invisible I was a little nervous, as it didn't look smooth but I let it dry and after the second coat, it all smoothed out and came out exactly as I was hoping! It did dull the finish a little bit, but personally I would much rather have my floors a little dull than a little shiny... at least with the dark stain. Our oak floors look fine with the regular satin finish but we wanted our kitchen floors to be very different from the rest of house and the Douglas Fir wood with the darker stain and Invisible finish accomplished this.

Hope this helps someone on the fence about which finish to get. I was bummed that the Extra Matte didn't work out because now I have 3/4 gallon of it and it's not cheap, but considering how much we saved with finishing the floors myself, it was well worth it to go back and get the Invisible Protect!
jod9302
5 years ago
I am interested in knowing how the Loba turned out for everyone. Thanks, Kate Smith for sharing your experience. I am in the predicament of wanting my white oak floors to look natural (no yellowing or amberization) and found a blogger who had the same problem. She was told to use Loba 2K Invisible Protect, but to put down TWO coats. She had the same problem as VTMT with oily and water staining and, after contacting the Loba company, was told she needed to put down THREE coats (with slight abrading in-between coats). She had her floors re-done and is now (well, after 3 months) very happy with the results. I don't want a super-matte finish, but don't want glossy either, so I am going to put down the Supra as a final finish.

Wish me luck - this stuff is expensive. Does anyone know if there are samples available? I'm having no luck finding them. Thanks!
Sebastian Koch
5 years ago
I did it in my entire house. I have 140m2 worth of solid oak floors from 1937 and I find the result fantastic. I like that old raw look of untreated oak so I absolutely love it. I started by doing 2 rooms 6 months ago in order to test. I did 2 coats but would suggest 3 in more trafficked parts of the hse. I have added a link over the entire project so that you can see before, during and after. Keep in mind that the last pics are taken right after the floor have been treated so the shiny finish will fade
abode19
5 years ago
Wondering how your floors turned out, VTMT and jod9302 and what product(s) did you use? We're wanting the same goal as you, thank you!
queenelvira
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
We just did our floorboards in this finish after major renovation. Part of the house (new) is Australian Chestnut. The old part of the house is Pine (house was built in 1947).

Originally (in the old part of the house) the boards were coated in oil based poly gloss. Real shiny look. it was good (having been done 20 years ago). But as part of the reno, we sanded everything back and decided to do the old boards and new in the same finish.

Quite simply - wife hates it. She has called the polishers to get a quote to redo the whole house. We might be going semi gloss.

She doesn't like the feel of the finish nor that it looks so natural that the boards look like they are not finished.

For me, I like them. I think it looks good. Some of the final trades that have come by all said it looks amazing. But of course that's not everything! SO my thought for people to ponder before embarking on the finish - are you going to be happy with a board that looks like it is not polished - which means that any imperfections in the board will be easily felt. If so, then consider the finish. If not, then best to go with a level of gloss.

F.
Brandon Schmitt
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Has anyone used the Loba Supra AT? I have quarter and rift sawn white oak. I know the lowest sheen available is satin but wanting some that is very durable. What is the most durable Loba product in a matte sheen? Thanks
SJ McCarthy
5 years ago
Loba makes a matte finish in the 'AT' line: Loba Invisible Protect AT = matte.

https://www.loba.de/us/products/waterborne-finishes/2-component-waterborne-finishes/product/2k-invisibleprotect-at/

The 'AT' means 'Advanced Technology' which is a ceramic nano-bead infused water based polyurethane. It is the toughest finish available out of a 'can' (factory finishes with Aluminum Oxide are technically a snick tougher...but they arrive in 50gallon drums...not cans).

Go ahead and click on the link. It will take you directly to the Loba site and the InvisibleProtect. It is a magnificent finish...personally I prefer the satin of the 2K Supra AT...but then again I hate dull floors that look like they have never seen a mop.
Brandon Schmitt
5 years ago
Have you used the Supra at I have quarter dawn white oak. I don’t want the look of the plastic looking finish. Not sure if it has that appearance I’ve never seen it.
SJ McCarthy
5 years ago
Any polyurethane with a bit of a sheen will have a look of "plastic" (whatever that means) because it is film sitting ON TOP of the floor. Anything that is a film that sits ON TOP of a product will give the impression that the floor has a finish...something protecting it. It is the nature of the beast. It is what it is.

I've seen the 2K Supra AT satin on hundreds of floors. It has a lovely velvety feel under foot. It is low-slip with a "glow" to it that does not quite rank as shiny. Like all Satins, it starts off life with a stronger glow (almost a semi-gloss) but then calms down (about 1-2 months later) to a lovely mid-range satin. I personally love the look, because I like a bit of glow...but I don't like the hassle of a semi-gloss.

The 2K Invisible Protect has the same qualities but without the glow. it is a "raw wood" looking finish. It will look as if the floor has nothing on it. I've not used the Invisible, but I've seen finished projects with it...it has a different appearance to it.

The Invisible is SUPPOSED to look like a hard-wax oil finish (like Rubio) but with all the benefits of a film coating (no maintenance, excellent scratch resistance, durable for 20+ years, etc). It is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

If you want to try a bit of the Loba 2K Supra AT Satin out, a company called iCork Floor LLC carries the 1 litre (quart size) of the product. For less than $100 (including shipping) you can have a bottle of it shipped to you. You and your refinisher than then try it out losing too much money.

FYI....iCork Floor LLC is one of the ONLY companies in NORTH AMERICA that carries the 1 Litre size. The shipment must be specially ordered from GERMANY! That's how rare it is to find the 1 litre size (and the fact that the minimum order is 130 CASES...with a shelf life on 12 months).

www.icorkfloor.com

They will help with the 1 litre size if you wish to try it out.
Monica
3 years ago
@queenelvira I bumped into a flooring pro at Woodcrafters. He GAVE me Loba 2K Invisible Protect and Lobadur Whitener to add to it. I explained my plan was to use some sort of finish with a bit of white something (paint?) added to it to cut some of the yellow of white oak. I'm hoping to get the natural look of white oak but not that unfinished furniture look. Meaning I have to have something on the wood to protect it. If any of that makes sense...... Oh and my project is not a floor but a bed I've had made. I haven't tried it yet but will update with some pics
HU-231824251
3 years ago
We had the Loba Invisible applied to our red forest hardwood floors 3 months ago after 8 years of high gloss polyurethan. We were told it was perfect for families with high traffic however after a few days we noticed marks, chemical burns from hand wash ( we think, no one knows) we have discolouration under all our rugs. The contractor we used did not disclose to us until after the job that he hadn’t used the product before & is now refusing to fix all the damage. We have reached out to Loba with pictures & no one wants to help. I have been in touch with other disgruntled customers so I do NOT recommend this product at all. It has cost us so much time, money & stress 😭
SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
@ HU-...4251 Can you up load pics? Did your contractor (wood flooring pro? or just some general contractor who said s/he could do it?) do a FULL sand and refinish or just a 'buff and coat'?

Tell us a bit more about the situation.
HU-231824251
3 years ago

Hi, the contractor said he would use the product. His quote said Sand & Polish waterbase finish Loba invisible Matt finish 2 coat system hardener tin UV tint 95 sq mtr. Those white burns are all throughout kitchen & living room. 35 marks in total. Discolouration under all rugs, rugs were left of floor for 4 weeks after curing so only been laid for a couple of weeks. Track marks all through home, we think from Dyson cordless vacuum - we have stopped using this now but kids shoes are leaving marks we cannot mop out. Contractor is not willing to fix the floors.
HU-231824251
3 years ago
@SJ McCarthy thanks for your help, see my response above 🤞
SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
I'm answering on the other thread....just to keep things simple. TTFN
Monica
3 years ago
@HU-.... curious as to how many coats you used. I believe Loba now recommends 3 coats rather than the original 2. Nonetheless what an awful outcome . I’ve not used it but the hardwood pro I encountered used it exclusively and had high praise for it... go figure.
Daniel Richter
3 years ago
I think he didn't use the hardener or not at proper ratio. Thus stuff is very tough when fully cured. And no primer is needed.
SJ McCarthy
3 years ago
The training of the pro will always dictate the level the product will perform. Loba products are very expensive. As soon as a pro uses it exclusively then you are working with a HIGH END pro with outstanding training. No one voluntarily works with **EXPENSIVE product if they can't get it to work.

The hardener is the stuff that makes things cure quickly. The faster it cures the faster it becomes 'tough'. In theory, Loba 2K Supra AT can be used without the hardener but it takes over 1 MONTH to reach final hardness (2 coats = 30 days; 3 coats = 60 days or more).

If someone believes they can make something 'go further' by mis-managing the LABRATORY produced mixture is often considered a pretender. That being said, there are MANY uses for the products without the hardener...but only the very well educated high-end pros (the one's who made it through College or University but chose to work with their hands) will grasp the subtleties of 'off-label' uses.
wallpaperwarrior
2 years ago
Having used this as a DIY-er...very easy to use, lovely Matt finish and if you do the three coats with a sand between coats 2 and 3, it feels amazing under foot. Yes, some patches and water seeping through on our first go but we quickly learnt: (a) you need that third coat, (b) any greese marks (like a thumb print or drop of sweat) will leave a whitish mark, (c) you have to be super super accurate with the hardening ratio.
Keen B
2 years ago
@HU-231824251 I know this is an old post, but there is a blog that you might be interested in reading...Click Here This woman suffered something very similar to your situation after only two coats, applied too thinly. Three "not thin" coats seems to be the updated method...
HU-29455730
last year
We too went with this product (matte) over 180sqm and although we love the look, the result is NOT family friendly. The whole point of putting down hardwood floors is for the finish to be hardy. This is anything but that. It scratches so easily and trust me we are not careless people. No children in the house and no pets. Protectors on the bottoms of furniture etc. We have been so careful but after 1.5 yrs it is very disappointing. I would not recommend for this reason.

Extra Matte Floor Issues? (Loba 2K Invisible Protect)

Cancork Floor Inc.

Comments (24)

G & S Floor Service

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