SHOP PRODUCTS
Houzz Logo Print
nicoletta7

Why did you decide on recessed or flush mount lights?

Nicoletta
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago

I'd like to hear people's opinion on what made them decide on traditional recessed can lights OR decide on low profile flush mount lighting? When I say flush mount, I don't mean the old style fixture hanging from the ceiling but the new style where it tries to mimic a can light - all LED and the led driver sits inside the light fixture box. I'm having a hard time deciding which light to go with or if I should mix up the rooms. For example: Recessed in living room, dining, kitchen area. Low profile flush mount in bedrooms and bathroom.


Recessed light trims and their matching fixture actually seem to be cheaper. Probably because the led driver doesn't have to be scaled down to fit in a small 3.5" light fixture box.


I like the energy benefits of sealing a small light fixture box and the added insulation since it's a small part of the attic floor, but also like the ease of installing a big recessed fixture since they have so much adjustment.

Comments (40)

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    6 years ago

    Do you have a 1- or 2-story house? More to the point, will the light fixtures be installed in a first floor ceiling for which there is a second floor above? Or will they be installed in an ventilated or insulated attic as in a 1-story house?

  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    1 Story. As I said about the benefit for the flush mount - better insulation in attic because I would not have those large metal recessed can fixtures. However, I can have extra insulation on top of the recessed fixture too. It'll probably drift away though as I would use cellulose.

  • Related Discussions

    light or dark cabinets - how did you decide?

    Q

    Comments (23)
    I really went back and forth between cream or black and finally ended up with cream perimeter cabs and a black island. I did ask lots of opinions from friends and on another forum, but I ended up just going with my gut. Whenever I looked a pictures of traditional white or cream kitchens, it just looked right to me, but I really had to have some black in there, to keep it from becoming too bright. There isn't a right or wrong answer to this, just make sure you get what you love, and what you can live with.
    ...See More

    Pros/Cons of Recessed Lights. Must decide now.

    Q

    Comments (11)
    I really struggled with this, too. I think it's best to consult a lighting specialist, but even then we weren't happy with the results, probably because we didn't know what to ask. I can only speak to the cans, but I think the type of bulb and trim you use has a big impact on the type of light you get. Our lighting specialist recommended short neck halogen PAR bulbs - the kind that have the reflector covers that look like outdoor bulbs - with black trims. We knew the black trims weren't for us, so we looked into the alzak trims, both clear and wheat haze. In the end, since we couldn't decide, we told the electrician to put in the basic white trims with the halogen PAR bulbs. We HATED it. The light was more spot-light than ambient (although not all that spot-light). We could clearly see the parabola shape of the light on the upper cabinets and walls. The shadows were bad, especially the handles on the upper cabinets, and the lights were very harsh when looking at the ceiling (although maybe the alzak trims would have fixed that). So then I started googling. Turns out, we wanted more ambient light, which is sounds to me like what you want, too. But our cans were in, and I wasn't about to consider changing those to surface mount. We ended up going with LEDs, as suggested by Nancy_in_Mich, and we LOVE them. After lots of internet research, we got the Cree LR6 2700k cans for $80 each at polar-ray.com and put them on a dimmer. Polar-ray is local to me so I did not order them over the internet, but they were great - very helpful and knowledgeable, and I saw good reviews of Polar-ray on the internet. The LEDs spread the light more. There are still shadows, but much reduced. The come on immediately (no warmup) and dim, although not as much as the halogens did. They are very bright, at least as bright as the 75 watt halogens. I recommend a dimmer! Here's a picture with both bulbs - look at the two lights near the wall. The one on the left is the LED, right is halogen 75 watt. You can see the defined edge of the light for the halogen, but not the LED. Also, the LED light is higher up on the wall - more spread out and diffuse. You can also see a color difference - we prefer the LED because the halogen was quite white. There are two other bulbs in the pic - the front one is LED and the right one is halogen (see the shadows created by the one on the right). Good luck with your decision!
    ...See More

    Turning Recessed Light Into Semi-Flush Mount?

    Q

    Comments (5)
    Is this the same kind of can that was in the kitchen? If so, you should have an idea what is up there. We were considering changing two cans in a hall to flush mounts and I found aconversion kit at Home Depot. The Westinghouse one in the link is the one we were l ooking at. We decided not to do them, so I can't tell you about putting them in, but it looked pretty simple. I think there was a video online that showed the installation.
    ...See More

    hallways: recessed or semi-flush lights?

    Q

    Comments (2)
    I love the light that recessed lights cast but nothing wrong ceiling mounts. Guess it depends on style and what really speaks to you. In my case, a ceiling mount would have been "too much" with competing nearby kitchen pendants so I did recessed in that hallway space near the kitchen and then a ceiling fixture in the second-floor hallway.
    ...See More
  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Any input on this? Finding Cans and the LED Light to be cheaper than 4" round box and the LED fixture that screws to the box. Surprisingly cans have gotten really cheap even though they are rated IC and AT.

  • Ghana Florin
    6 years ago

    We decided not to do any of those lights - they remind me of a spaceship hovering overhead... think "Close Encounters"...

  • skivista
    6 years ago

    We are planning our lighting now. I want no cans at all as we are building a very tight and energy efficient (single story) house. I quite like these ... any thoughts @Sophie Wheeler?


    Circular Flush Mount, Brushed Nickel · More Info

    I plan to buy one and connect it in our current house to get a feel for how it performs.

  • acm
    6 years ago

    seems to have good reviews, which is good since the listing doesn't even get into lumens. your on-site test will tell you more than any guesses from us. I like the look of that, though!

  • freeoscar
    6 years ago

    I don't like the surface mount - they look like pimples on the ceiling to me. Not sure what a 'good' light is according to Sophie, but for our Halo LED housings + trim kit (the vast majority of ours are 4", 90 CRI, 3000K), we paid about $40 for the equipment. What makes the housings for LED is that they use some type of proprietary connector rather than an edison type screw base. Theoretically they are more efficient, but who knows. They work beautifully with our Lutron dimmers - very wide range and the dimming is extremely smooth.

  • PRO
    Brilliant! Lighting & Design
    6 years ago

    @Nicpedia, @Sophie Wheeler has already provided some of the financial implications of your decision. The other part I'd add is the life-cycle costs of both materials used in production of the two choices and the operational costs over the lifetime of use.

    Also consider the insulation value (which you have already admitted could be compromised as the cellulose might not stay in place), and the moisture infiltration (and possible resulting mold issue).

    All factors point (IMHO) to using Halo SLD or Philips Slimsurface. I'd suggest you buy one of each and test them out.

    Let us know where you end up.

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    Okay I have a question. Why are can lights a big deal in tight homes? Tight homes should have their roof decking insulated IMO, so who cares if cans stick through the ceiling? Can't you just caulk around them from the attic (since there will be no insulation in the way) and call it a day?

  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    @Sophie - What are these high dollar ICAT cans you speak of? I need some links that are accessible for ordering if I plan that route. The cans online so far all seem to be similar, with variances on the gasket used that seals the gap between fixture and the 5/8" sheetrock and then either soldered joints or taped joints to make it "Air Tight".

    Now in terms of energy costs... The recessed lighting industry has definitely evolved. Going from non ICAT and no desire to seal gaps and high wattage bulbs that caused heat causing chimney effect in the winter to modern fixtures that are IC and "AT" and low wattage that don't even accept an Edison style bulb.

    I am looking at this decision from different angles. I don't want to cheap out, but I don't want to decide on one type or the other and have regrets.

    Halo has been a good brand to me and to electricians here. They have earned a reputation in my area which has been on the positive note which is important to me (local options and the sort). What I have found interesting when conversing with electricians is that they use the same ICAT fixture for million dollar homes and for 200k dollar homes. Which made me wonder how many others do the same.

    Recessed Cans: A recessed can is light and has adjustable bars that allow me to slide the can in the space. The cans are typically 6" and at least 8" in square size meaning I have 22.5" - 8" = 14.5" of centering space per joist bay. For me that is not a problem as I know I can make that tolerance work. For others? That may be an instant deal breaker.

    Wiring a can light is very easy. They have a junction box on the side or top that is spring latched. Fittings seem to be wago connectors which just push in and you're done. If it's a light in with several others there is a 3rd hole in the wago connector to power the next light.

    Light options for the Halo cans seem to be no problem. Various kelvins, various lumens, various sizes, and various trims. I'm a simple guy so a 3k or 4k color with white trim fits the bill. I'd go over lumen and use a dimmer to ensure I get the light level I want. In addition, the lumen per dollar and light option per dollar seems to be better. Just from my searching.

    Flush/Surface Mount: There appear to be two options. Install a 4" round nail on box to a truss chord or to a perpendicular block between two trusses OR purchase a 4" round box that is attached to an adjustable rail that allows you to slide the 4" round box to the desire position (similar to recessed can system). This in my opinion is superior to the nail on box. Not sure in terms of strength, but new lights are light (aside from pendant/chandelier...another topic). I notice the available options for boxes on a sliding rail are very limited in my buying region. Locally? NON-Existent which is a crock of crap. Online? I have to special order to a building store OR I have to buy in quantities that are more than I need! What a disappointment but potentially worth the hassle. These round boxes are easier to get to tighter tolerances because it takes less space 22.5" - 4" = 18.5" of centering power basically per truss bay.

    Wiring a 4" round is typically fairly easy. That's where it ends, though. You feed wire into the 4" round, you use wire nuts or you use Wagos and pigtail to each desired fixture. No clip, next, repeat. Each light will need a pigtail or a connection from the fixture to the wiring directly. New LED cans have the wiring normally done for you so that the bulb has a connector that just snaps in. I would personally use 3 or 4 hole wagos to make things clean. The problem I see with the HALO lights I bought are the LED driver. They want me to mount a metal bracket into my 4" round box and then cram in my 12 or 14 gauge wiring that includes power coming in, power to fixture wiring, and power going to the next light along with the metal bracket. That's proving to be a tight fit. I have found an off-brand flush mount light that screws into the 4" round box so that I can have more room for wires. I fear the quality is not there though.

    Light options: As others have said, they are getting better. I am happy to see Halo offers very high lumen options, but only in 5/6". They have decent kelvin choices. The trims are not....common? I don't see many options. (not a problem for me). The price however is more than what I am paying for a Halo ICAT fixture + bulb. That is not enough to put me off from the choice. However, as stated the light may appear as a pimple on the ceiling. They are unable to recess. The sizes are basically 4" or 6" the 5" is included as a 6" online at least.

    I am all ears. I was 100% sure I was going to use flush mounds and 4" round boxes but now that I am to that stage I am wondering if it's the right choice.

    In terms of insulation, I am not as worried knowing I can seal either fixture with tape and caulking. The 4" round is easier to caulk, but it's not AT until that is done around the wire openings and along the box to sheetrock edge. I will have cellulose so I can have more insulation than just a single batt of insulation. It will be easier to insulate around a can than using batts. @dbrad Insulation is a concern because my attic floor is not going to be spray foamed, nor will my roof decking. The cost of that far outweighs itself in my region.

    The concern about the bump from each light is something I had not considered before.

    I am just stating everything I have learned and hoping to have other opinions and advice put into this thread for myself and others. There is not a lot of literature about one vs the other. That's important to me. To weigh the options.

  • jln333
    6 years ago

    The thinking is moving away from insulating the roof deck. It is hard to get high R value in a deck - people have been doing low R there and it has been better than the horrible leaking from a ceiling. Doesn't make it ideal.

    My plan is for R 79 in the ceiling plane. To get the equivalent from a roof deck would actually need to be R110 or so since the roof deck is significantly larger. That would be impossible to do at any reasonable cost.

    ICAT cans are called air tight but they are far from it. To insulate properly requires building or buying a box around it and then sealing that to the ceiling. Costs more than the light does.

    So you have to look at what your standard is for tight and well insulated and perhaps up that a notch. I am also saving significant money doing R79 at the ceiling plane vs R40 foam at the roof deck.

  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    jln333 - I have purchased two brands of ICAT fixtures. I inspected this thoroughly last night since the other brand just came in. They look like spitting images of each other minus some details I found. The wiring in the junction box was smaller in one fixture and the wire connectors were cheaper while the Halo (also less cost) brand had better wire and legit Wago brand connectors. The gasket to seal drywall to can is thicker on one model of can. The gasket sealing the liquidtight (flexible conduit) that feeds the line from junction box to the actual light bulb connection point is not placed properly on either can. It's a little ring like a peach-ring and is cut too large on one or it's not centered on the other meaning that part would leak air at the top of the can. Now I started thinking about what point in the can needs to be Air Tight. I am coming up with this.... the bulb or array of LED's needs to be sealed and the connection from bulb to can needs to be sealed. If this holds true, then the fixture is air tight because air can't escape past the light itself, nor around the edge of the light into the can. I was looking at the ASTM methods on the cans and I guess the test they do required less than 2CFM transfer. Does this sound right? To me 2CFM is two cubic feet per minute of air loss....thoughts? Sounds like it's not AT.

    Also, JLN, what light fixtures are you using? I assume flush mount but I want to see some choices you picked!

    R79 in the attic (ceiling plane) is going to be great! Cellulose? Indeed roof deck insulation is pricier and larger square to cover due to the triangle effect. The base of the triangle is smaller than both of the sides added together after a certain pitch. I believe that pitch would be .0001 inches per foot...

    I am curious are you up North to need that kind of insulation? R38 is code here I am shooting for R48 or R50 with blow in cellulose and potentially fiberglass batts to start off at some tight locations on my hip roof. I have been researching the diminishing returns on insulation especially EPS or XPS foam and have found some interesting results. Cellulose has proven the best R per buck if you have the room. Cathedral ceilings will guarantee the necessity for spray foam or rigid foam board in any colder climate. Not worth it to be for the added aesthetics of the room (not to mention additional sq footage of volume of air to heat and cool)

    I am open to sealing my can fixtures before putting them up but boxing around 50+ lights would be a several day job. I think I would use head gasket sealant for the can fixtures so it holds up over the years. Not sure what kind of sealant I would use if I use 4" round boxes that have the basic plastic tab that bends/snaps and has a gaping hole around wire entry.

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    Around here foaming roof decks in on the increase, not in decline. And we have 2x6 rafters so the higher R-values aren't as difficult to achieve in this case. Also remember, the air-sealing qualities of foam are just as important as its R-values.

    I'm still looking for an answer to the question though. Doesn't a conditioned attic (insulated roof deck) make the whole can-light problem a really simple one to solve?

  • simstress
    6 years ago

    Recessed cans have more options for color temperature, lumens, CRI. A surface-mount disk light locks you in to whatever specs it provides. I like that I was able to put in 900 lumens over a tall stairway ceiling, while 600 lumens went in my living room with a normal height ceiling. We wanted a different color temperature for the office... no problem.

    That said, I installed surface-mount disk lights where there was no attic/truss space in my last house. This worked great for closets and hallways with 8 ft ceilings where even a flush-mount light could get banged up.

  • skivista
    6 years ago

    Doesn't a conditioned attic (insulated roof deck) make the whole can-light problem a really simple one to solve?

    Probably, if there is a conditioned attic. A shed roof with no attic space is a different issue....

  • Janie Gibbs-BRING SOPHIE BACK
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    We have surface mount LED because we don't have enough room above our ceiling for the recessed can, unless we lowered the 9 foot ceiling. The fire box would have been a big expensive PITA.

    They dim and are incredibly cost effective. They look great.

  • PRO
    BeverlyFLADeziner
    6 years ago

    There's no point in selecting an energy efficient light that provides a terrible quality of light. Really no point.

    Who selects ceiling lights in the center of a bedroom anymore? For bedrooms, there is an electrical supply sometimes in the ceiling for a fan or chandelier, wall accents lights and outlets for table lamps.

    Baths require a variety of lighting and it's the color of the bulbs must always be considered.

  • jln333
    6 years ago

    dbrad - 2x6 rafters? Closed cell foam doesn't meet code in much of the country in 6 inches. Code for us is R49 and we are in the south. So a 2x8 can do it. Open cell - even a 2x12 is not enough.

    Sure conditioned attic negates the issue. But best performance is not a conditioned attic which was my point. Foaming the rafters is easy - easy for builders. Even lets you do ducts in the attic still. Easy has advantages and that is why it might be on the increase where you are. Doesn't make it best.

    So it is all about what you are trying to achieve. Air sealing by foam at the roof deck is helpful for sure. But air sealing at the ceiling plane and then insulating at 2x the R value is better. Air sealing is easier without cans. Also cans make for r value holes in the insulation even if well sealed.

    We are doing cellulose in 2x6 walls with r4 foam sheathing. Climate is central NC - zone 4 but 10 miles from zone 3. Goal is near zero heating need. Actually didn't specify an attic insulation number but last quote had R-79.

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    We're in SC and code is R-38 here - we'll achieve that in the rafters. The additional air-sealing is what will help the most though - if we can just keep the humidity out that's half the battle here. I plan to monitor RH up there and will point a register/return in that direction if necessary.

    And if you're calculating straight R-values I don't think you can compare fiberglass & spray foam. Foam's R-value per inch achieves significantly more thermal barrier than fiberglass at the same R-value. At least that's what I keep reading - I'm no expert.

    I just don't think a conditioned attic can be so easily dismissed as underperforming. I guess if someone wants to skip can lights altogether, or religiously seal every little crevice created by all the mechanicals that punch through the ceiling plane and walls - maybe that plus a massive load of insulation on the ceiling will do the trick. Doesn't that ruin any chance of storage up there though? And then you still need to run ducts below the ceiling and drop soffits everywhere (assuming a multi-story house). To me this all just sounds like too many moving parts to get right when moving the insulation to the rafters solves so many of those problems.

  • David Cary
    6 years ago

    Ducts between floors are pretty easy. Look at your foam cost. Cellulose performs nearly as well as foam. No plumbing from ceiling. No cans.

    So basically you are left with a few light boxes.

    The toxic off gassing and energy use to make the foam are an issue. We will have a section of attic boxed and insulated for storage.

    Bur neglecting all that, R79 cellulose at ceiling plane will outperform R38 foamed rafters at lower cost. R38 at ceiling plane will outperform R38 at rafters too. Do the math and realize the primary reason to foam rafters is to put ducts up there


  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I can see how air sealing is advantageous of spray foam. That's a huge bonus. Spray foam also may work great for renovating old homes because if sprayed in walls and between rafters, it will add rigidity. However, I'm not entirely sold on the use of it in my situation. I am comfortable installing cellulose myself. I would not DIY closed cell spray foam. I would have to go over reviews of contractors who do spray foam which is about 3 or 4 in my 100 mile radius. Unfortunately I'd have to talk to people who have had it done to ensure the company had the mix right when spraying so that no fumes were lingering and that the foam solidified which is a common occurrence with improper foam installation. To sum things up on the foam front: Yes, it has its place. Yes it would prevent can lights from being a problem in the attic floor because the attic floor is no longer under attack from outside temperatures.


    @BeverlyFLADeziner - What are you suggesting for lighting, then? I thought a lot of people still had ceiling lights or fans in the center of their bedroom in addition with other ceiling lights and end table lights. What are your suggestions for Bedroom Lighting, Living Room, and Kitchens?

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    I suppose the ease of ductwork below the ceiling depends on the house - ours would not be easy to hide at all. And sure, our foam quotes are about 2-3x the cost of fiberglass, but the ROI is well worth it even in the short term. And at least around here, blown cellulose is about 2/3 the cost of foam, so not a lot of difference.

    Offgassing has not been an issue with the water-blown Icynene we are planning to use. We did avoid several others that have quietly settled lawsuits around the country though - choosing the right foam is definitely important, as is choosing a reputable installer!

    I can't agree with you that R38 at ceiling plane will outperform the same in the rafters though - that just doesn't compute with anything I've found while studying this.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    6 years ago

    Phrases we find that we wish we would have said: "...I don't like the surface mount - they look like pimples on the ceiling to me..."

    Get out the Clearasil!

  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Virgil, I hope the surface mount lights I would use would look much better than a pimple, lol. In this case I imagine recessed lighting would serve as Clearasil. Wonder what wall sconces look like since those stick out more than a ultra-thin surface mounted light....

  • dchall_san_antonio
    6 years ago

    We remodeled and had 10 cans put into a bedroom and two hallways. The cost was $1,200 for a per-can-installed cost of $120.

    We remodeled a condo and found some surface mount LEDs. They mount to a standard 4-inch electrical box. Cost of the fixtures was $15 each (2 for $30) at Home Depot or Lowe's (I'm looking for the box). He replaced 3 globe fixtures with these surface mt LEDs in an hour. One difference is the boxes were already installed in the condo. Another difference is if the LED starts to flicker, we have to replace the entire fixture and not just the bulb.

    These turned out to be exactly what we wanted. Color temp is 3,000K so they look good to us. They are roughly 40-watt equivalent, but sort of a high 40 to 50ish.

    Unfortunately we finished this remodel in July and Hurricane Harvey hit
    45 days later, so I uninstalled all the fixtures until the building is
    repaired.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    6 years ago

    Well...I'm an Old School Architect who grew up believing that the primary purpose of lighting fixtures was to illuminate stuff without being seen or attracting attention to the light fixture. Old School Decorators, of course, will go into a frenzy reading this.

    This is one of the primary reasons can lights came into being, way back at the Beginning of Electricity and Mies van der Rohe: To let folks see stuff and not worry about the actual lighting fixture. It was a Modern thing.

    And I remember being a kid, back in the days when television screens were round with black and white images, when each room in the house had a round surface mounted ceiling lighting fixture as the primary lighting source for each room. Spooky shadows everywhere!

    Of course, these days we've learned that an intelligent lighting plan incorporates three categories of lighting: 1) task lighting; 2) ambient lighting, and; 3) accent lighting. Oh yes, and dimmers (we call 'em rheostats in the biz).

    That's progress for you...no more spooky shadows! :-)

  • David Cary
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Dchall - wow that is a Clearasil worthy pic. I would not call that attractive or an acceptable alternative to can lights.

    Dbrad- the surface area of rafters is going to be about 50% higher than the ceiling plane. So insulation being equal, the losses are 50% higher. Really simple actually. You will have to educate me on what about your house makes it so hard to put ducts between floors. There might be a really good reason and I would like to hear it. I have HVAC contractors tell me that and then another does it just fine.

    My current house was over $10k to foam the rafters. I spend less than $1000 a year on space conditioning despite ducts in vented fiberglass attic. Energy rater had savings of $200 a year for foam. Quick payback?

  • Nicoletta
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Virgil - I assume you're preference is recessed lights over the flush mounts? Do you have any input on can lights over flush mount? Some main points I am curious on are the Air Tight and Insulation factors of each fixture.

    David - Doesn't sound like quick payback to me.

  • Janie Gibbs-BRING SOPHIE BACK
    6 years ago

    Dchall-ugh, so sorry about Harvey, 45 days...

    Ghana-LOL! When we first put in our surface mount LED lights I told the hubs I felt like I was on the transporter pad.

    Virgil-I can picture my grandmother ironing in the basement with her huge heavy iron with that thick rope cord plugged into the ceiling socket of the light bulb.

    But lowering our ceiling and paying over double just didn't make any sense and then all the insulation issues, when the electrical inspector came he said more and more residents were building with the surface mount.

    We have all our surface mount lights on an insteon hub, all controlled by Alexa, it's glorious to say "Alexa, dim the lights 50 percent" or on the way out the front door "Alexa, turn off all the lights" and poof!

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    6 years ago

    Nicpedia wrote, "...Virgil - I assume you're preference is recessed lights over the flush mounts? Do you have any input on can lights over flush mount? Some main points I am curious on are the Air Tight and Insulation factors of each fixture..."

    Yes, in general, I prefer recessed lights where the lamp does not project below the ceiling. But everything depends on the proposed location and usage. Recessed lights are good for task lighting and some for wall washing in certain conditions. They may not be so good for overall ambient lighting, and cannot function at all as accent lighting.

    My preference is that I don't like to look at the ceiling and see a bunch of random, protruding "pimples" (I'm going to incorporate that term into my architectural dictionary!). What I like to do is to design a house with interesting and varies spaces and then design the necessary lighting for each of those spaces to include the display of art, wall hangings, recessed displays and the like, all of which go to make a house special and unique.

    I really don't care for "general" lighting such as a ceiling mounted fixture in the center of each room.

    As for air-tight and insulation, one has to look specifically at the various types of lighting fixtures. It's hard to generalize. And of course, it depends on whether the location is in a first-floor ceiling or in a ceiling below an attic space, and what type of attic it may be, and what the insulation strategy may be.

  • Janie Gibbs-BRING SOPHIE BACK
    6 years ago

    Nicpedia, I forgot to add, if you have the $$$ and don't have a beef with all that entails regarding can lights, do it! At the end of the day, they do look much better, if that is your criteria.

    I disliked our surface mount lights at first, but now I'm used to them and they don't bother me at all. But that doesn't mean that you would feel the same.

    I live in the NYC metro area, very humid hot and sticky. Most of us do have a ceiling fan anchored in the middle of the room, real estate agents will tell you "to get one" at all costs if you're selling or having an open house, in regards to the middle of the room post. May not be applicable in other areas, but it's a huge selling point in the city.

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    David Cary, our roof is rather complex and several rooms have vaulted ceilings all the way up, so insulating just a flat ceiling plane isn't an option - there are lots of knee walls and rafters that would have to be insulated no matter what product was chosen. Foam is the best solution in this scenario.

    Our I-Joist floor system forces ducts either into the attic or into the living space with soffits.

    Was that payback calc from a mix of insulation types or did it assume foaming the entire envelope of the house? Our payback is calculated to be less than 2 years - primarily because of the lowered hvac requirements - which makes it a no-brainer in our case. I've never heard of a payback that low for an all-foam house.

  • David Cary
    6 years ago

    Just roof line - tall and complicated. Sizing came down but only $500 worth. Obviously every roof line is different, like every climate and every foam quote. This all started with you believing that foaming rafters was best practice and I was just making the point that it is not. That is why avoiding cans matters.

    Some of the discussion is made for others benefit of course. Is there a reason why you couldn't have used open web trusses? Honest question. Was it just not thought about or is there some perceived downside other than cost and a few inches.

    Knee walls are super easy to add rigid foam to so I don't buy that. Cathedral ceilings are a fine place for cellulose and expect foam adds little. But then it doesn't hurt either.

  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thanks for the informative post Nicpedia and others. For those unaware of the energy and indoor air problems introduced by recessed lighting, Ban the Can and Kick the Can might help. Uncontrolled air movement (even with ICAT) is the main issue, contributing to ice dams, wasted energy, moisture transport and possibly backdrafting combustion appliances, sucking in attached garage air or soil gases like radon. Non-AT cans reportedly leak as much as 20 CFM but even 2CFM times X number of can lights can add up to the same amount of air movement as a fan.

    I think well designed can lighting has a role to play, particularly for artwork and kitchens. David's threads in lighting forum is helpful for novice can designers and this kitchen design article in FHB has graphics but requires subscription. LED and evolving lighting technology requires special dedication for best enlightenment.

    From what I understand, manually sealing holes in any recessed cans is a fire hazard and why most experts recommend custom enclosures or tenmat hats as outlined at bottom of this recessed can lights article on FHB. It's a laborious PIA, falling outside typical subcontractor scopes adding to can's upfront costs.

    Be careful thinking that 1st level or conditioned, unvented attics are safe for cans. Homes leak at floor framing bands and the attic, even with spray foam throughout. Blower door tests prove that recessed can lights are major pathways for unwanted air movement. The bulb acts as the "fire" for the micro-chimney effect. As for gaskets included in trim kit, don't expect the electrical sub to include them.

    Roof details are often contentious and I agree that spray foam at roof deck is on the rise throughout, mainly thanks to stricter building codes. The point is to never install ducts outside the conditioned space (vented attic or vented crawlspace.)

    Spray foam at roof deck doesn't necessarily mean better. The main thing is that the spray foam industry is falsely advertising and recommending below code levels of insulation. R-value is a different measurement than air-leakage (blower door). Spray foam insulation should not be allowed to use anything "air movement" to prescribe R-value. R38 = ~11" of open cell (R3.5 per inch). Others seem to go with 5.5" - 7" thick, which is R20 to R25, barely half of prescribed code minimum!

    Along with the pathetic energy performance of thin spray foam are the moisture concerns. From the research I've read, best practice includes a supply and return from the HVAC system in the attic. If not, spray foam could be contributing to high moisture content in the structural sheathing. Tough to argue with Joe Lstiburek who points to a best case vented attic AND having ductwork in conditioned space.

    Building higher performing vented (unconditioned) attics requires some important considerations. Eliminating storage, raised heel trusses, and sheathing/taping entire upper ceiling before building interior walls is often necessary.

    Flat roof lines and full vault ceilings do best with insulation at roof deck but on top of structural sheathing. We often use SIPS for this, especially with timber framing.

    Open web trusses and walkout basements are better at hosting ductwork. Achieving current code minimum or better energy performance can eliminate the need for long duct runs to exterior walls and windows. Well designed systems have centrally located mechanical spaces, cleverly hidden trunk lines, and supply registers at interior walls. Ducted and ductless mini-splits are other possibilities.

    It's great to involve an energy rater in upfront decisions but be careful with applying simple paybacks to individual components. Few raters have the experience for proper input, often involving many assumptions at the design stage and the software is designed to not overpromise. Best to follow or exceed current international code minimum prescriptions, especially blower door requirements for cost-effective results.

  • dbrad
    6 years ago

    Okay David, that low payback makes sense now since only the roofline was considered. And it's still my lowly opinion that expanding the conditioned envelope by insulating the roof deck remains a great option for those who don't wish to forgo cans and other punctures through the ceiling plane. Of course, it's not as simple as that - it's just a part of a larger design. And no, it doesn't make sense in all cases - but neither do other alternatives. Most of these modern energy-saving designs each have their place, dictated by climate, structure, cost, homeowner needs, etc.

    The engineer recommended the I-joists early in the process. I compared the pros/cons with the 2x4 web truss option and stuck with his recommendation. For our application and design they made the most sense, even though they would force some mechanicals elsewhere.

    Sure you can stick some rigid foam on knee walls but those are also some of the most difficult places to properly air-seal, which is the single biggest win we can all get.

    Springtime, a couple of your listed considerations for high-performance vented attics are why we didn't go that direction (cans being one of them! [a poor attempt to stick to our topic]). It just wasn't a viable option with our combination of design & climate.

    And I'm familiar with that Icynene blog post you linked. I'd recommend to anyone who reads that post to also carefully read the pages of comments - it'll take you several hours but it will be time well spent if you're into the details of this stuff. Joe Lstiburek himself pops in a few times.

  • Milly Rey
    6 years ago

    I had discovered that many LED manufacturers lie about how long their bulbs last.

    Im not willing to eat such a high cost over and over. Can lights are flexible.

  • HU-619882381
    3 years ago

    @Nicoletta, I just stumbled upon this thread and am debating the same issue: recessed vs surface mount. What did you end up going with? If surface mount, what product and can you post a pic?

  • pepper4grind
    3 years ago

    I am contemplating the same original question about surface mounted vs. recessed can lights. I'm remodeling a bay house outside of Houston and the living room & kitchen has 13 ft. ceilings. I will be putting a ceiling fan in the middle of the living room. I'm also putting lighting in the bedrooms where ceilings are 9 ft. My contractor is pushing me to use surface mounted LED lights vs. recessed but I don't really like the look. What is a better light for the tall ceilings?

  • Wade Lawrence
    3 years ago

    I am bumping this article back up to the top, I'm about to have the same recessed light vs. flush mount light dilemma in our house currently being built. I saw a house with the small round LED flush mount lights, and I really didn't like the look of them, they looked a bit cheap - perhaps there are much better models out there now, with LED technology getting better every day (?). If someone has experience and / or photos with this topic, please do share with us! Thank you.