I am sorry RitaMay. He is your President. You don't have to like it, but he is in fact your President. Unless you change your citizenship, that is.

Ritamay, I am happy you like Obamacare. Unfortunately, the misnamed Affordable Care Act is costing my family of 2 over $10,000.00 MORE per year than my old insurance - for no more coverage. I hope your current President, Mr. Trump can undo some of the damage to our healthcare system caused by the Affordable Care Act.

Loonlake, I have to ask, do you make a good income? And if you previously had insurance, why did you change? I'm genuinely interested.

Janie, just curious, why do you care if I denounce him as president? Just wondering. Tell you what, you can have him twice for me. Lol. Hopefully, VERY soon, this will all just be a bad memory. Fingers crossed.

Ritamay, it is not whether you denounce him or not, its the statement that got to me 'he's not my president' - but I do think that Chi is correct, that it is symbolic statement. Although truthfully, I don't know where you live and so maybe he truly is not your president :)

But I do feel that all this chit chat and name calling is fruitless except for the fact that it gets bad feelings off of people's chests. It kind of makes a person feel good to yell and scream and stamp ones foot (through your typing fingers). Its just idle chat.

I'm not yelling and screaming, or stomping anything. I'm not like that. In real life, or here. I'm just really curious to how minds work that think what he does is ok. That he acts presidential. That the things he says aren't racist. This is how he represents the office of the president, so I will never consider him my president. He's in the office, but he has far from earned the title. But, you're right, this is just idle chit chat. I thought that's what we pretty much do here. And oh, I'm in California. You can insert eye roll here....lol. Have a good day everyone.

Its just idle chat.

I know and respect (and like) some people here after seeing their well thought out posts for many, many years. A well reasoned post or ones that communicate deep feelings about important subjects and ideas can help us make sense of a sometimes chaotic world.

I apologize for my insensitive 'idle chat' comment. Yes many comments are well thought out.

ritamay with all due respect....how did you feel when our standing President Bill Clinton was enjoying the company of Monica Lewinsky? I believe he said he never had sex with her so it was all okay....cigar yes....penis no.... I'm not very happy with our current president but in all good conscience I could not vote for Hillary. This is how we ended up with Mr. Trump......

And of course Monica was consensual. How about the 13 women who filed law suits against tRump for sexual harassment and the rape of a 13-year old was withdrawn because she was in fear for her life. What about first wife stating in court he raped her? What about his 3 marriages and five children by different women. What about him walking in on girls dressing rooms in the Miss Universe pageant because he owned it? How does that compare?

I think lily316, and chi pretty much covered it, beautifully in fact. I would only add that no, I don't condone what Bill Clinton did, but to me, that might make him a bad husband, not a bad president. And what does that situation have to do with Hilary becoming president? It's like blaming Melania for her husband's abhorrent behavior. Which I don't. I tend to feel bad for her.

How anyone could witness the disaster that was Donald Trump today and still think him worthy of the title of President is beyond me. The man is an abomination!

Yes it's disgusting that he's blaming the victims. He blamed both sides over the weekend. I thought he redeemed himself slightly yesterday for his comments against the "nationalists" but he's blown it again today by again saying there's blame on both sides.

One side was protesting. The other side was also protesting but it included a terrorist willing to kill for his agenda. These are not equal.

I was so upset over the election I called my mother. Something I didn't used to do that much. Let's just say we really bonded again which helped her alot when my Dad died last February. My Dad. Born under FDR. Died under Trump. Let that sink in. G*d perhaps was merciful.

This is the sort of reasoning that makes me crazy.

> I'm not very happy with our current president but in all good conscience I could not vote for Hillary.

You realize, of course, that Bill Clinton, and Hilary Clinton are two different people. She certainly did not have "sex with that woman" in any way, shape or form. Yet it is held as a major negative against her. Meanwhile you are willing to overlook the fact that Trump has sexually assaulted many, many, many women, forcible kissing them against their will, shoving his hand under their skirt and fondling them without their consent, pushing them against the wall and attempting to initiate sex. Additionally he has been accused multiple times of forcible rape. That all isn't a deal breaker, but being married to a man who had consensual sexual contact with someone else, that's unforgivable.

Similarly some of the attacks against Hilary concerned the fact that she gave speeches to Wall Street firms and investment bankers big money fat cats and refused to release transcripts of those speeches. The implication being that she was promising in private to be less harsh towards them then her public speeches would suggest. Whereas Trump he has refused to release his tax returns, because they would show that he is a big money fat cat who has used dubious loopholes to avoid paying taxes and he intends to change the tax code to directly aid himself and other fat cats.

Lastly Hilary is accused of lying, and in support of this her detractors will trot out a few examples of her being caught changing her story, or exaggerating some story from her past to cast herself in a more favorable light, but the reason she has been caught out at lying, is she isn't very good at it. Trump however is a consummate master, lying as easily and effortlessly as breathing. He's so good at it that he will tell a lie, know it is a lie, and whole-heartedly believe the lie to be true.

Oh and I just found out that a co-worker has had a stroke due to blood clots perhaps from being struck in the neck by a torch carried by a rabid, racist, Nazi, Trump supporter.

If you voted for this ass, these are your brethren now.

Ritamay. Not wealthy, just middle class. Can not qualify for any healthcare subsidies. Was covered under husband's plan, but with ACA, his employer's cost grew so much that they had to drop dependent coverage. Would have cost me 1200.00 a month for the same plan I had before. (Premiums for his single coverage grew to be higher than our family coverage before.) Now, we have much higher premiums, a long with high deductibles on top of that. Why? Mandated coverages we would never use. My employer's plan which I am now on has had it's costs go up 400+% since ACA came about. Add to that the extra high deductibles coming out of pocket, and we pay 25% of our income on healthcare.

Loon, you explained the problem perfectly. The same has happened to us.

We can go back and forth and be here forever when it comes to Clinton and Trump. The act is, in my honest opinion, neither was/is a good choice for our country.

It's disappointing to have to rationalize one's decisions based on thinking an alternative would have been worse.

Our country is in a sad state of affairs.

To Bob_cville: how awful. Words fail me. Thoughts go out to your friend.

Loon, do you live in one of the states that refused the Medicaid expansion? I know that refusal raised prices in those states.

The problem with Obamacare is that it came from Obama. The version he passed was not the one he wanted. It was the mangled remains after the Republicans fought him every step of the way. His plan was a federally funded plan, like Congress uses, which has massive negotiation power. Couples would pay less than $150 a month without subsidies.

But they fought it, and the states run by people who dislike Obama dragged their feet, refused to play along as much as they could cause it might hurt their re-election. They knew if they ended up costing their constituents money, they would still blame Obama.

And here we are, with a fully Republican majority House and Senate and they can't fix it.

It drives me nuts that people blame Obama for the negatives of the ACA, when the final product and implementation was nothing like he originally proposed.

Again, people repeat what they hear from radio and tv "personalities." Thank you for a better explanation of ACA, Chi. Until huge profit is taken out of the equation, you can thank pharm and insurance companies for the large premiums. Do you not understand, Loonlake, that your anger is displaced? Obama did his darndest to help more people become insured but as Chi said, he was stymied at every step. Hillary tried to do this as well back in the day and was shot down. Does she get any credit for this?

Displaced anger? My hubby just pointed out my figures were way off. It's worse than I thought...

Before Obamacare, we paid $2500.00 out of pocket each year. That's a little over $200.00 a month. Now premiums are about $1200.00 a month for the two of us, and we have $5000.00 deductible on top of that! That's over $19,000.00 a year out of our pockets BEFORE one penny is paid out. (Yes, we get some participating provider discounts, but we got the same before.) We are paying over $16,500.00 more annually due to Obamacare mandated coverages. The irony is that this year my husband had to give up his 2nd job (the one that helps us pay these increases) because of federal limits to his on duty hours as a driver. Any paid job counts against available driving time - even if it does not entail driving!

We make too much to get subsidized rates, yet my freeloading relatives get to pay nearly nothing for the same type of coverage. Yeah, I'm angry.

Too many people, on both sides, don't have the interest or the ability to understand more than spinmeister soundbytes. That's the totality some know of the issues of the day. It's why there's little sensible discussion.

Is anyone okay with the status quo, that tens of millions of Americans have no health coverage? That these are the people who may cause your loved one or yourself to die or suffer needlessly because they clog up emergency rooms for simple problems a doctor could handle IF they had coverage.

Here's a simple proposition - the more people have insurance, the cheaper the cost on a per individual basis. Those who want their own cost to go down should support expansion of coverage. But too many don't, because the soundbytes don't lead them to understand that.

I'm not angry that those that can not work getting government charity, I'm angry at those that will not work who use the system.

Relatives that live together yet have the State pay for 2-3 babies being born by a "single mom" and covered by many programs. If married, they don't qualify.

People who specialize in seasonal work to get months off with benefits so they can drink/fish/gamble. Do they ever get a job when "laid off"? Not until the benefit limit hits.

Grown kids up to age 26 choosing jobs (or lack of) to remain covered under parent's health plan, even when they are married having kids!

People going into rehab facilities 3,4,5 times just to avoid jail time (and it's all covered by their ACA coversge.)

All of the above examples are able bodied relatives. They think I'm dumb to work so hard to not rely on State aid.

We work more hours every year, and have less to spend. We can not give to charity what we could 10 years ago. Soon we may have cut back again.

Just got word that next year our premiums will go up double digits with an increase of deductible. Yeah, I'm sick of those who choose not to work to provide for themselves.

loonlakelaborcamp's examples show what the big problem is with the entire tyrade so many have on health care. There's no question in my mind and in most rational peoples' minds that the ACA is far from perfect. But it's A START. Now, the rational thing to do is keep building on it and REPAIR THE FLAWS, but when you're so dead-set on attacking a man who's still perceived as "the enemy" you won't do what's RIGHT for the country, you need to dismantle everything and start over. The "throw the baby out with the bathwater" is so apropos here. That makes no sense whatsoever. To dismantle ACA without a responsible replacement ready is irresponsible and to support it is irresponsible and Trump and the rest can't say they haven't had time to work on it, but they were too busy attacking opponents to think about doing what's right. He had nothing during the campaign except to say he was going to come up with something and it was "gonna be tuh-wiffic". So far, it's not tuh-wiffic! Repeal without something substantial is about comparable to killing one of your kids because they have tonsillitis, when you could just fix the tonsillitis and save the child. But when you have such devout hatred for someone, you don't think rationally.

Now Trumpty Dumpty, OTOH, is beyond repair. There we need to totally remove and replace. Someone who gives out State secrets to the Russian press should be tried for treason. That's an impeachment offense, as opposed to staining a dress. But again, some couldn't see reason when they're so intent on destroying their perceived "enemy".

Plus, for those who can listen to something other than Faux News Channel, the ACA was very little different than the proposal by Bob Dole years before. But never let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe, right?

For the book, I wouldn't buy it. Clinton's picture makes no difference to me. I'm not interested in the topic enough to want to read it. Personally, were I to run for President, I would run on the platform that I'm gonna build a wall around the Vatican and make them pay for it. Then arrest the Pope, all the cardinals and bishops and most of the priests. I'm tired of all the child raping, child molesting creatures getting away with it and all the people covering it up. (Funny, they're not all from Mexico!) And shame on anyone who supports/gives to an organization that supports that kind of molestation and abuse. By condoning their actions and inactions just makes them all accessories in my humble opinion. And if I got the votes from all affected by those monsters, I'd win by a landslide. What a world we live in where staining a dress and getting consensual oral sex is SO BAD but raping children is, meh, no big deal. Yep, I guess America is officially "great again".

I think one of the reasons there is such a big disconnect between blue and red states is that the lived experiences of the people in the states varies so differently. I do not know anybody living the kind of life loonlakelabor camp describes. If I take loonlake at his/her word, then I understand why he/she is upset about extending the social safety net. When I think of people who need a better social safety net, I think of the people who work at Whole Foods or Wal-Mart and are one paycheck away from calamity, though they work hard. Or I think of workers who are exploited by employers who treat their employees like parts and not people- keeping them on call so that they can't even get second jobs or make plans around childcare. When I think of cases like this, I want to do everything I can to help. But if I were to think of cases of people gaming the system, sure, I could understand not feeling very generous. It would really help if we better understood one another's lives.

Wow, cynic, hateful Catholic bashing! How is that different than any other hate group rhetoric? Some of the greatest intolerance exists among those who live in the delusion that they are "tolerant." This rant definitely shows it!

This thread definitely belongs in HOT TOPICS. But, since someone asked the question, no I'm not interested in buying this book or even reading it for free. It seems religion-oriented, not about Hil at all. Not my cuppa tea.

Well said cynic!

"Obama won, now Trump won. It's time to move forward"

The problem with that is that with Trump it is impossible to move forward, only backward.

Rita, I do believe in the social safety net for those that can not work. Those who will not work are a huge drain on the system. These family members choose to work the system rather than being productive citizens-and they are proud of their accomplishment.

In my part of the country we are begging for employees. My BIL is a business owner, trying to get unskilled employees to work a job paying $16.00 an hour plus meals, benefits, and work transportation, and most don't even show up for the interview! We live in a lower cost of living area where you can get a 2 bdrm apt for $650 to $800 easily.

I think one of the reasons there is such a big disconnect between blue and red states is that the lived experiences of the people in the states varies so differently. I do not know anybody living the kind of life loonlakelabor camp describes.

Rita, if you live anywhere in the SF Bay area, there are people of the type described living, right now, within 5 miles or less of your home. If you live in SF, they're a few blocks away. You just may not know them. This isn't a red/blue state phenomenon.

Elmer, I am quite aware of the poverty that exists in our area. How could one not be? I mentioned the schools in my neighboring town in another thread you and I were on. I used the term red state instead of using a term that could be more blunt. Sometimes people choose words to get an idea across without surgical precision in an effort to be polite.

Rita, these people are only in their "poverty" because they choose not to work. Inability to work is a whole other matter. The benefits they qualify for have made it too comfortable to even want to get off them. Housing, fuel, utility, school, healthcare, meal assistance can add up. Very discouraging for those who try to work hard, but have more taxes taken from them...

Rita, I don't keep track of who says what or everything that's said. Perhaps others do, I don't. It may be better to repeat a thought previously shared if you think something you've already said sheds light or also belongs in another comment.

Work and accomplishment provide self-worth and dignity to people, no matter what the occupation. These important feelings will remain lacking even when people rely on a public safety net for some period of time.

The choice of being productive or non-productive is open to everyone to make, and leads to consequences to enjoy or suffer from. The safety net is not to blame for those who make poor choices.

loonlake, that is a terrible waste of their potential and a huge frustration for you, no doubt.

Way OT, Elmer, I agree with your comments about work and dignity. I think of those issues often when the subject of universal basic income comes up.

Loon, having worked with the disadvantaged, I have seen first hand the people you have described.

Instead of looking at public housing/food stamps/ Medicaid as temporary, these were looked at as benefits that one was entitled to permanently! We wind up with generations of people bucking the system. And, we the tax payers have to foot the bill.

I also worked with the severely disabled. The amount of money that is wasted on specific programs is astounding. Yes, we all feel empathy for those who are in this physical state by no cause of their own, but we should work on ways to make things more efficient.

The disabled should be treated like everyone else. Not better. So many workers were paid to do duplicate service. Does one really need a counselor, a job coach and a job supervisor to do the job of bagger at a supermarket? I have so many examples that it is frustrating to think about.

And, don't get me started on spend down!

Loon, for comparison's sake...are you making 16.00 or more per hr?

eld161, I beg for forgiveness for going so far OT, but it's not every day I get to speak with an expert about a subject that matters so much to me.

How come we don't hear from people like you who have actual experience working with these programs? It would be so much easier for me to understand what I thought about the size of the safety net if I heard from actual people working with it instead of pundits and politicians.

For example, a few years ago I watched as child protective services became involved in a situation and made everything 1000 times worse for all parties concerned, from the children and family involved to the taxpayers. Short story - the mother was unfit due to drugs, the impoverished grandparents were taking care of the children, but because of their lack of funds, the grands were not perfect at getting to all appointments and such and the children were put into foster care. A fraction of the money spent on foster care and CPS could have been spent on the grandparents and everybody would have been better off.

A bunch of "liberals," myself included, watched this disaster unfold close-up and it changed our thinking about the safety net rather starkly. We lost faith that government interventions could be very useful for the kinds of situations most of us cared a great deal about.

I see no one's bitchin' about their 401K's and other investments going up by record amounts! But I bet that has nothing to do with the President, right?

The Dow Jones Industrial Average was 6600 in March, 2009, 18,500 in September 2016, and is now 21,750. Other indices have had similar movement. The upward movement has been despite of his being in office, not because of.

If news came out that Trump was leaving office, all would most certainly spike up significantly.

The CEO resignations from his various councils, which were accelerating BEFORE the weekend PR debacles and resulted in their unwinding BEFORE Trump said anything to them or to the public, are evidence enough concerning what Wall Street and the business community think of him . Like the growing list of Republican politicians who have similarly spoken out publicly, they find his erratic and unpredictable behavior destabilizing and of great concern.

What happened to the confederate monument thread?

I have no idea. Why would the thread disappear? Could we have missed it?

It's been deleted apparently. That's a shame. I guess some people can't handle these types of discussions.

I am just wondering, in case somebody knows, but how do posts get removed? The last exchanges that were heated at all were between me and Cindy and she obviously did not ask to have it deleted- and I did not. Elmer and I exchanged some fire quite amicably, so that was not the problem.

Would someone who posted on the thread have asked to have it removed? Maybe the OP? Which is all fine with me. I am just a bit unsettled at the thought that some moderator has decided to remove the thread.

The OP asked to have her discussion removed.

Jmc101

Answering your question, I have been at this employer 9 years and get just over $19.00 hourly plus benefits. Came on at 11.00.

Thank you for letting us know, Tamara.

So, what's a "devotional", anyway?