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linzita512

So many whites!! PPG vs BM vs SW and color matching...

linzita512
6 years ago

I'm about to lose my mind with how much time I've spent researching WHITE paint, and buying samples....although I have learned a lot.


We are needing to pick a color (first) to paint the exterior of our modern farmhouse build and I do not want creamy or green/gray/blue/pink undertones....I want WHITE but is there such a thing as too bright?


Builder wants to use PPG but most advice I see references BM or SW. I'm still nervous to let them "color match" although they have the formulas in the computer ? Do they use the same system/pigments/whatever else goes into it?


I think (?) I'm debating between PPG Delicate White, SW Pure White. (BM Simply White was on the list but I'm worried about green undertones). Are these others too bright? Maybe PPG Gypsum - anyone know what undertones it has?


If you'd made it this far, thanks for any advice!

Comments (118)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Don't reference encycolorpedia - worth noting again.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    But I followed the same steps for PPG Delicate White, and I got a rough estimate of its chroma at 0.72...which seems to be significantly higher than the 0.38 you've provided above for Delicate White

    Seems significant but in context of the Munsell Chroma scale, not so much. Take a look at where Delicate White plots out according to its Value and Chroma (of course it's 1 GY hue family).



    Relatively speaking, 0.38 to 0.72 isn't a huge difference.

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  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I also noticed the hue degree was listed at 107 (if I'm correct that "h" in the L*Ch(ab) line is the hue degree), which seems to put it in the Yellow family and on the "cool" side, versus what Camp Chroma shows, which is a hue degree of about 111, and in the "warm" side of Green-Yellow family.

    The hue degrees around the outside of the Color Strategist Color Wheel is the LCh color space.

    The inside spokes/hue families is The Munsell Color Space.

    Two different color spaces illustrated on one color wheel.

    Munsell was the template for LCh which is why we can correlate Munsell hue families to LCh degrees.

    If you don't put them both together, then LCh hue angles are difficult to relate to. For example, 107 and 111 degrees all by themselves is pretty abstract and meaningless.

    That changes when we correlate them to Munsell Hue Families; you know at-a-glance what 107 and 111 degrees means in terms of perceptible hue.

    Both 107 and 111 are correct. Again, this isn't a precise science. For several reasons that involves lots of details.

    Munsell Hue Family notation and the LCh hue angle will rarely align perfectly for a color.

    Expected and actually a good thing.

    Because the notation/data values provides two different perspectives on how a color could be perceived in a balanced quality of light.

    When the hue angle and Munsell hue family notation straddles a hue family, like it does with Delicate White, the framework of color data values is telling you exactly what you need to look for. It's saying, "Hey, Elise, this color could read warm or cool in context so heads up, pay attention when you analyze this color visually in situ." Again, the data doesn't interpret itself it requires a creative human linchpin. Delicate White is case in point.

    Color temperature is not a measurable attribute of color.

    It's 100% dependent on context. A color can only be designated warm or cool by comparing it to other colors.

    The frameworks of color spaces provides that context.

    In order to figure out what hue family a color belongs to within a color space - and- where it fits in among the other colors in its hue family - the color has to be compared to all the other colors in the color space.

    That's a lot of colors for comparing -- thousands.

    Because the comparison is large scale, the color temperature as indicated on the Color Strategist Color Wheel usually holds true in situ. Whether it points you to only warm or cool or whether it tells you it could swing either way, it holds true more often than not.

    Of course, there's more to how color spaces, systems, data values and notations work but that's the specific answer to your Qs.

  • Diane Romano
    5 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya and Elise, I’ve been following your discussion for the reasons that a) color has become my new obsession and b) I’m contemplating using PPG Delicate white for my trim and cabinets in lieu of BM SuperWhite. Lori, you’re knowledge is superior and, yes, many of it confuses me but mostly I understand and see how your color theories are right on target! Thank you for sharing your talent and knowledge with our community!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    The thing to remember is that it may seem confusing at first but it's all concisely explainable.


    All the dots of color spaces, systems and notations connect.


    It's much like riding a bike, once you know how, you can't remember what it was like when you didn't know how to do it and you never forget. It becomes a reflex.

  • tennisanyone17
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago



    extra white on a cabinetry by SW, and see salt on the walls. Thank you so much Lori for helping out

  • Elise
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    We're not measuring a 2 by 4.... with a tape measure.

    We're measuring colored samples with a spectrophotometer or a colorimeter.

    It's not possible to pin color down to one absolute point. We can *normalize* it enough to make it universal so we can communicate color and manage it.


    I have an affinity for numbers and the exactness of math, which is I why found all of this so interesting. I was hoping the numbers would give me the answer to "which color", and I didn't realize this was less of an exact science than what I wanted. I need to keep the phrase "general framework" in mind, but unfortunately I think that leaves me with having to try more samples than I wanted, which leads to other issues (sample size, sheen of sample vs. sheen of final product, color matching between brands, etc.).


    Yesterday I painted a spare cabinet door with a sample of Delicate White, which I got from Home Depot and was mixed in Glidden paint. I have to convince myself that it is a different color than the Kelly-Moore Swiss Coffee I have on my doors and trim. Again, KM Swiss Coffee is a MUCH whiter Swiss Coffee than other brands, so maybe it really is that close of a match...OR maybe my sample of Delicate White mixed in Glidden from Home Depot is not a true representation of PPG's Delicate White.


    Either way, I felt my Delicate White sample still looked too "creamy" in anything except bright natural light during the day or under the 3500K LED lighting in my kitchen. I was not really happy with the color anywhere else in the house.


    If I know my cabinets are getting painted with PPG Breakthough, and I don't have faith that a color match from another brand will be 100% accurate, then I feel I should probably just stick to a PPG color. It seems you recommend Delicate White the most, but is there a PPG color comparable to BM Super White you could recommend? According to EasyRGB, the closest PPG color is Snow Storm with a ΔE of 1.1, but I can see there is almost a 20 degrees difference in hue.


    Maybe I should get another sample of Delicate White, but this time straight from PPG? According to EasyRGB, Delicate White and Super White are really close in hue angle (less than 1 degree difference), but that site's information shows Super White would have about double the chroma of Delicate White, whereas your information shows Delicate White is the more colorful.


    But here I go again trying to rely on the numbers. I just can't help it! :)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I know Extra White turns out well when mixed in Break Through. That might be your sweet spot between all the colors you've tried.


    I've never seen the Home Depot version of Delicate White. Only SW and BenM. It's true that not all colors translate well into all other brands.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    @tennisanyone17 - wow! It looks amazing. You did a great job! I love the mix of the marble/granite.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Thanks for the recommendation of Extra White Lori. I've seen you comment elsewhere that you think that is a pretty color.


    Have you seen BM Super White mixed in Break-Through, and are there any other native PPG whites you would recommend I take a look at? If I'm interpreting everything correctly, Gypsum and Commerical would both probably be too creamy or yellow for what I want.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I have not seen Super White in BT. Commercial and Delicate White look similar - I think most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. Gypsum is a bit grayed for me (if I remember).

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Okay, thanks again! Your expertise and responsiveness is appreciated!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Here's the Colorography for Kelly Moore Swiss Coffee 23.

    And the Colorography forRadisson 1013-1 by PPG Paints.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Thanks for these colorographies Lori! This shows KM Swiss Coffee as being extremely close to BM White Dove, just a tad brighter, and that is exactly how I perceive that color. I just did not expect PPG Delicate White to also look like that, and I have to look REALLY, REALLY hard to see any difference compared to the KM Swiss Coffee on my doors, so I'm still feeling I got a bad match on the DW from Home Depot.


    I also didn't realize PPG Radisson had such a low LRV (by comparison to most of the other popular whites). I see it still has a Value above 9 though. I haven't grasped the difference between these two attributes. Does a color with a lower LRV, but with a still somewhat high Value, appear muted?


    I'm going to take a drive to get another sample of Delicate White from an actual PPG store, so I thought I'd grab a couple of their other whites and I was trying to narrow it down, but I'm not sure Radisson is going to be something I like.


    I just found PPG White-On-White, with a notation of 30GY 88/014. I think that puts it similar to BM Super White, so maybe I'll have a look at that, but it also looks to be more of a Glidden color, versus actual PPG line, so we'll see.


    Thanks again!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    To sort out LRV, Value and Chroma the first thing you have to get your head around is what bright/brightness describes.

    Everybody uses the word "bright" incorrectly. I've never come across a blogger who speaks to it correctly which is part of the problem - the incorrect definition is perpetuated.

    Brightness is correlated to luminance. Has nothing to do with chroma, saturation, grayed, muted, vivid, clean or dirty.

    Brightness describes how you perceive luminance. Lightness Value and light reflectance fall under the luminace umbrella.

    When you look at your phone in the *bright* sun light and you can't read it what do you do?

    You turn up the *brightness* to make it brighter in the bright light so you can read what's on the screen.

    You don't go lookin' to adjust an amount of saturation or chroma, grayness or colorfulness.

    Nope. Instead you adjust the brightness, the luminance so it emits a brighter light.

    Once I explain brightness using a phone as an example, most people get it and never use the word bright to describe how vivid/clean, muted/dirty a color looks again.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I haven't grasped the difference between these two attributes. Does a color with a lower LRV, but with a still somewhat high Value, appear muted?


    Each measurable attribute of color is simple and one dimensional.


    LRV is a quantity and it tells you on a scale from 0% to 100% how much light a color reflects and conversely absorbs. That's it. That's all LRV is about. That's why the LRV scale on the Colorographies has sunshines.


    Value is a perception. It answers the question "On a scale of neutral grays between black and white how does a quantity of LRV look compared to that scale of neutral grays?" And this is why I used eye icons on the Value scale on the Colorographies.


    Chroma is also a quantity. It answers the question how colorful is a color. It shows you on a scale the ratio of neutralness to full colorfulness. The neutral is either a gray or a white. Lower Value colors are compared to a neutral gray to determine Chroma. Higher Value colors are compared to a neutral white to determine Chroma.



  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I just found PPG White-On-White, with a notation of 30GY 88/014. I think that puts it similar to BM Super White, so maybe I'll have a look at that, but it also looks to be more of a Glidden color, versus actual PPG line, so we'll see.


    PPG bought Glidden.


    Glidden's The Master Palette actually uses one of the most brilliant color systems ever designed.


    30GY 88/014 is a color notation.


    GY is the green-yellow hue family. Here's The Master Palette Color Wheel.




    88 is the LRV




    014 is Chroma.


    Here's The Master Palette's Chroma scale:




    I've written a couple blog posts about this system - which is DIFFERENT from the notation I use for the Colorographies.


    https://thelandofcolor.com/learn-use-paint-color-system-now/

    https://thelandofcolor.com/master-overtones-color-systems/

    https://thelandofcolor.com/color-overtones-review/


  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Hi Lori, I'd actually already read all those links of yours...more than a couple times, lol. I understand that notation for PPG White-On-White (30GY 88/014) is a Master Palette notation, but I did not realize the chroma used a different scale than the system you use.


    I believe "30GY", basically means the color is in the GY family, and is 3/10ths of the way from GY towards GG. Which would correlate to a hue in the system you use of about 3.0 GY. Comparing it to BM Super White, the Super White is ever so slightly more green with a hue of 3.4.


    Comparing the LRV's, which I believe use the same scale, they are 88 vs. 87, so a negligible difference.


    I now realize that I made the assumption that a chroma of 014 in the Master Palette system correlated to a chroma of 0.14 in the system you use, compared to 0.21 for Super White.


    All of the above is why I thought PPG White-On-White would be very comparable to BM Super White.


    I realize it seems like I am still trying to paint by numbers, but I am really just trying to use the numbers to narrow down what I should sample. I'm already into sample over $100!


    Can you tell me how the chroma scales differ between the two systems, and what is your opinion on how close the two colors would be?


    Thanks again!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I realize it seems like I am still trying to paint by numbers, but I am really just trying to use the numbers to narrow down what I should sample. I'm already into sample over $100!

    That's one of the ways the framework of the data values/notations should be used.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I now realize that I made the assumption that a chroma of 014 in the Master Palette system correlated to a chroma of 0.14 in the system you use, compared to 0.21 for Super White.


    The thing with the notations and values is you have to pick a lane and stay in it.


    You have to compare apples to apples.


    Consistency in the methods for measuring and transforming data values to notations matters.


    We can't convert any color we want to to fit into The Master Palette color system.


    However, we CAN convert any color we want to to fit into the Munsell Color System.


    Which is why I use that one for everything including the Colorographies.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Can you tell me how the chroma scales differ between the two systems, and what is your opinion on how close the two colors would be?


    Here are the Colorographies so you can compare. (apples to apples :D)


    Super White

    White on White

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Thanks so much for those! I'd say they look even closer than what I was thinking, at least according to the numbers.


    Now the only question is since White-On-White is really a Glidden color, but I'd be getting it in PPG Break-Through, would it still be considered getting a "color match" even though PPG is the parent company? If color match gymnastics are required, then I might as well just go for the color match of BM Super White.


    That might be a question for the guy or gal at the PPG paint counter

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    It's an excellent question.


    I know PPG recently has a major reformulation across the board. I'm sure that included The Master Palette. So it's entirely possible that TMP is now a "home" color palette for PPG.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    And, yes, they are very close. Super White looks cleaner and is prettier, IMO.

  • Diane Romano
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya, I decided to stick with Super White for my trim and cabinets...it’s a nice clean white! Again, thank you for confirming my choice.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Diane, are you using a Benjamin Moore paint on your cabinets or are you doing a color match for the Super White? Just wondering if anyone has happened to have any luck with the PPG Break-Through in Super White. Thanks!

  • Diane Romano
    5 years ago

    Elise, we are using BM SuperWhite on trim now and using a different painter for cabinets so I’m not sure if he’ll match Super White to another brand or not..pretty sure he will use BM. We are painting walls and trim now but cabinets won’t get painted until January, however I needed to pick cabinet color now as we want to match our doors and trim to cabinets. The painter is here now and I’m loving the SuperWhite trim! It’s clean and crisp without being that glaring blue-white. Our kitchen faces north and we have some light coming in but not much. Our current cabinets are an off-white so I’m anxious to see them white! I’m sorry I’m not of better help.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Good news and bad news. I got a sample of BM Super White yesterday, and I love it! This white is exactly what I've been looking for. It is crisp and bright without being stark or blinding, and it does not have any of the creaminess that everything else I've been trying has.


    For anyone else in the same boat, the paper paint chip (which I've had for a while) does not do it justice. Not only is the paper paint chip unattractive, but like others have posted, I had been shying away from even trying this color because of the name. I figured a color called "SUPER" White was going to be very stark. I finally decided it was worth a shot since Lori and so many others were endorsing it.


    That's the good news. The bad news is that since this is a BM color and not a PPG color, I now have to go through the color match gymnastics. I'm not looking forward to that. If you see news of a paint-counter guy killing his customer, it was probably me, lol.


    Diane - Benjamin Moore has a really good cabinet paint also, it's called Advance. At least in my area, BM Advance and PPG Break-Through are the top contenders for cabinet paint and both have their own pros and cons. If your painter uses Advance then you're all set! I'm actually going to talk with my paint guy about using Advance for my job, but there's something to be said about familiarity with a certain product, so we'll see.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    I'll try to remember to report back on the results of my color matching. And thank you again to Lori and everyone else!

  • Diane Romano
    5 years ago

    Elise, i thought you’d love Super White. I agree the name made me apprehensive but it turns out to be the perfect white. I feel confident you’ll get it matched perfectly! Please keep us posted. Thank you for suggestion on BM Advance. Hoping our cabinet painter has used it. Now, my patience is being tested as I have to wait until January for my Super white cabinets! I think BM needs to change the name to Ideal White! Lol

  • sloyder
    5 years ago

    why not just buy the BM paint, rather than go through the color matching process.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    The painter stated he would use whatever I specified, but I know he is used to working with, and recommends, PPG Break-Through. There is something to be said about experience with a specific product and I'm not sure I want to mess with that. I tried doing some more research on it earlier today. Each one had their fans, but I read a few different times that BM Advance marks easier and is harder to clean. Even some of the Advance fans agreed with that. I haven't totally made up my mind though.

  • Diane Romano
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Elise, how did your Super White turn out? our original cabinet painter bailed on us and new painter will start in a couple weeks, however he’s going to use SW products and have BM Super White matched! I’m anxious to see how it looks..he’ll do a sample board for me in a few weeks. I was curious as to your results. I love my trim painted BM Super White though. Different painter than cabinets though. Elise, our cabinet painter isn’t a fan of BM Advance as it takes too long to dry. Just his opinion.

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    Our painters attempted the BM Advance, but it ended up being too thin to easily spray vertical surfaces. So we went for a color match with the PPG. It's not a 100% match, but my OCD will eventually get over it, lol. It looks great. I'd post pics, but we're still getting the rest of the work done!

  • Elise
    5 years ago

    By the way, after running into the troubles with spraying the Advance, a closer inspection of the label actually showed that BM states the preferred application method for Advance is brush and roller, spraying wasn't recommended. I brushed some Advance on some trim pieces, and I've never seen a paint level out as nicely as it did. If the cure time isn't a problem, I'd definitely recommend for homeowners who aren't spraying.

  • PRO
    Hulahideaway
    3 years ago

    please help I do not understand the math part just tell me what is a better white for bathroom walls to look nice with a open beam ceiling in my bathroom, I am thinking simply white, Extra white or PPG Pure white... which would be the safest and what sheen? thank you


  • NCSandyfeet
    3 years ago

    Hi Jillmarie49! Since this is a fairly old and long post, you will probably get better(and more) responses is you start a new thread. Good luck!

  • Gail Brown
    3 years ago

    Thank you everyone!!! I just got calacatta counters and needed to match a white. Sitting here with 100 swatches driving my self crazy. Soooooo glad I found this thread. I’m going with the BM Super White!!

  • Wendy Leigh
    2 years ago

    Do you know the PPG equivalent to BM Cloud White? Thank you.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    2 years ago

    Clear Yellow or Gypsum. They're the closest. Crossing brands to get a color match is an iffy proposition but whether it's successful or not depends on the color. I'd give color matching a shot with Cloud White in a top tier PPG paint. Pure Performance in eggshell is one of my favorites.

  • lavender12145
    2 years ago

    Wow that’s a lot of useful information. @Lori A. Sawaya I hopped here from

    my other post where you replied and going through this entire post now!

  • Debbie Cate
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    @Lori A. Sawaya

    I'm getting ready to renovate my house; currently have multi-color tan/gray/brown tone brick. We eventually will be painting the brick/exterior. But NOW, we have to get garage doors ordered months ahead of time & we want to eventually match the paint on the brick to the color of the garage door. The garage door company uses SW colors. My house is in middle TN & faces W/SW. I want "white" (but not the white that's actually a light gray or a cream). I also don't want to "blind" my neighbors, or be seen from a satellite! I read through this entire thread & found it all very interesting, but currently my head is spinning. I honestly just want someone to tell me exactly what brand & color to pick!!!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Hi @Debbie Cate. I just saw your post. You tagged me but it didn't show up in my notifications.

    Hope your project turned out the way you wanted.

  • Debbie Cate
    2 years ago

    Thanks. We decided on Sherwin-Williams Greek Villa.

  • HU-339849179
    2 years ago

    @Lori A. Sawaya

    Happy Thanksgiving !!

    I am looking to get some idea before appointment as first time buyer for Kitchen. I am looking for 2 tone kitchen cabinet, Thanks a ton for above thread, upper could be PPG Dedicate white and lower equivalent to BM Hale Navy, would you please help to find equivalent of BM's Hale Navy on PPG, I checked Cavalry & Annapolis Blue both are near to that but I am not sure, if those are accurate.

    Ceiling : PPG Dedicate White, Trim - PPG Dedicate White , Counter - White & Grey Granite, Cabinet : Upper Fixture : PPG Dedicate White, Lower : BM Hale Navy equivalent., Island : BM HN,

    South Facing large open concept Kitchen with Family Room, Breakfast Nook : PPG Whiskers equivalent to Agreeable Grey.

    Attached catalog pages for reference.




  • HU-339849179
    2 years ago




  • jenstersplace
    2 months ago

    @HU-339849179 Did you find a PPG equivalent to Hale Navy for your Kitchen?


  • jenstersplace
    2 months ago

    @HU-339849179 Were you able to find a PPG paint that was close to BM Hale Navy for your kitchen?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    2 months ago
    last modified: 2 months ago

    I didn't see HU-339849179 post 2 years ago.


    The closest PPG has is Soothing Sapphire.


    It is a different hue family but the Value and Chroma are basically the same.


    If the hue family was closer, then we'd know that PPG has a decent shot at mixing a good match to Hale Navy. As it is, you'd just have to try and see what you get.



  • jenstersplace
    2 months ago

    Thank you so much Lori!! I really appreciate this.