You will drown insect pests much more quickly if you add some dish soap to the water before soaking the roses.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks Christopher, will do. Do you know how long I can soak them before the roses are in danger of drowning?

Sharon

This addresses what is safe for large, budded BR roses:

https://palatineroses.com/receiving-your-palatine-roses

Some posters, here, have described keeping BR roses immersed for over a week, w/o detriment.

You talking about leafed out potted roses enchantedrosez5bma??? Not sure how I'm going do new leafed out potted roses yet...

But 2 small roses I have planted in the ground from last year are not growing or blooming (rose midge)... I'm taking them out next year in the Spring while still dormant cleaning soil off roots, submerging into soapy water, then replanting into pots... (Be like doing a bareroot)

Good point mad_gallica!

Why is rose midge different than midge in general. I've been reading and it seems as a species midge are water loving insects and behave much like mosquitos. But instead of depositing eggs in water they use plant tissue.

Mad- hmmm. I would think all animals can drown but how long can they hold their breath, lol. These are small bands or small roses purchased this year. They are leafed out though. When Edmund's flooded were the roses dormant or growing? It seems that might make a difference. I know David Austin says not to soak bare root longer than over night so I'm just wondering how long is safe?

Patty- thanks for that info. I wonder if being damp though is different than being completely oxygen depleted. Worms love moist soil but do drown in puddles.

Wonder if the RM eggs are surrounded in a substance that the midge could survive even after a water assult...Who knows? All we can do is try our ideas & hope for the best...lol

thanks Jim, I just don't want to kill the rose in the process. Maybe a weekly soaking could break the rm life cycle. I don't have enough buckets for that though :-)

In reading on midge in general they are attracted to light as in bug traps like Rebecca's. However I don't know about rose midge who seem so unlike midge as a whole.

Patty- are they a night flying insect like mosquitoes?

Since I doubt there is an answer. I would use a mosquito dunk in the water and submerge the pot and remove. Then there could be eggs already deposited in the plant. They would be actively feeding and not drop out until after the water treatment.

Regular midge are night flying. I have no idea on rose midge.

What is mosquito dunk?

This will be a long post, but here I go... Years ago I planted some bands in pots and put them in my basement over winter so they would grow and be large roses when I planted them in the spring. Being a newby at this, I just planted the band, dirt and all, in a pot and placed them under my florescent shop lights. A short time later, I noticed little bugs flying around (fungus gnats). I tried everything to contain them, trap them with yellow sticky traps and even vaccumed them out of the air without any success. I then realized that they had come along with the soil and put the pots of roses out in the covered window well for the rest of the winter.

The roses did just fine, but I learned a big lesson. I MUST GET RID OF ANY DIRT before I bring them into the house. So now, (today actually) when I ready up roses for winter in my basement, this is the protocol. Take the rose out of the pot and hose it off. Then I get a bucket of lukewarm water and put the entire rose in it. If it's greenhouse grown, I will maybe leave the leaves on it, but usually I strip the leaves. Then I get every little chip of wood, every speck of dirt out of the roots. It may take several buckets of water to do that. I have never had a bug in my basement since then. No spider mites, no gnats, nothing... And I have never lost a rose. I understand that I fully void my warranty when I do this. But for keeping bugs out of my roses, it is totally worth it to me. I only buy roses from certain sources these days... No local purchases. When I purchase from David Austin Roses, I soak all my bare roots, canes and all, for hours. I don't purchase potted from them.

Today I am going to try this little trick that I found online, and add it to the soaking water. I'll probably use about a quarter or half-teaspoon. Or you could try regular dish soap like Christopher says, but I would go lightly with that. I also use a little Super Thrive in the water when I water them down after planting in the pot.

ROSE BUSHES - Use 1 tsp. Basic-H to a gallon of water. Spraying rose bushes will protect them from red spider and other diseases. It also serves as a fertilizer. ROSE BUSHES AND APHIDS - Mix 8 drops of Basic-H to a quart of water in a hand spray pump. Spray on rose bushes. Basic-H dissolves the oil coating on insects, which opens their pores, letting the water soak in and causing the insect to drown.

After I get my roses ready later today, I will post photos. Keep in mind, you do this at your own risk and I personally feel that anyone who abuses a rose like this should not expect the company to replace it, if it refuses to grow. (And no hunting me down with a big stick if it doesn't work) :)

Rebecca

Rebecca- no big stick!!!, lol.

You're already preparing for winter. How sad for you. My Massachusetts winter is long enough, I can't imagine such a short summer as yours.

What is Basic-H? I googled it and came up with a stain remover. Is that correct? Amazon has it if this is what you use.

Sharon

Oh, Sharon, don't get me wrong. We get Texas heat up here (thank you TEXAS!!!) and we have wonderful summers!! As a matter of fact, we just finished up with a month of 90's and are cooled down to the 70's now. We usually don't get snow until November or December. It's just that I want to get my J.P. Connell started and growing so it will get big soon. It's late in the year to be planting outside with small roses here. It's barely a quart size as far as roots go. Next spring the roots will fill out a whole gallon. Plus I'll get the fun of having roses blooming in my basement in February or March. SO FUN!!!

Yes, that's the Basic H all right. The Blue stuff is best (the old Basic H) but it's tough to find. I found local dealers in the phone book under Shaklee and found some. That's the best for insect stuff. Farmer's use it to spray with. I think it makes chemicals more effective or makes the soil take up water better, supposedly. Anyway, I think the regular will work too, BUT THE REGULAR BASIC H IS TWICE AS STRONG AS THE OLD BLUE STUFF, so beware and add accordingly. Usually I test a rose first if I am going to spray or go lightly when I soak. I wish you well in your battle. I don't deal with midge, but I do have rose slugs and have had a fraction of those that I used to have since I got my Dynatrap. Don't know if that's the reason, but I don't get mosquito bites for sure because of it and I love that.

Rebecca

Soap will break the surface tension of the water, and insects will drown in it in seconds.

:-)

~Christopher

Rebecca- thanks for the info. I looked for a Dynamics's light too but couldn't find one that looked like yours. No one knows if rose midge fly at night though. It seems there is not that much info available on this insect. I can't even find a reliable picture of this insect, even in articles that discuss rose midge. i would hate to be killing a beneficial insect that looks similar like hoverflies.

Christopher-thanks for the info. I did add dish soap to a 5 gallon pail> How much do you think is necessary?

I'm also rinsing the soil from the roots and planting in bagged soil to see if this will help.

Sharon

Checking back, the big Oregon flood seems to have been February 1996. However, other people have talked about roses surviving fresh water floods any time of year.

However, my (failed) attempts to drown iris borers makes me rather skeptical that this will work unless the roses are submerged for weeks. It isn't a matter of killing insects, but killing insect eggs, which is a different matter.

Bt is a bacterium that messes with the digestive system of very specifically targeted insects. Mosquito dunks are targeted at mosquitoes (duh), while there is another type for caterpillars. Unless they list midge as a target insect, it is unlikely mosquito dunks will work.

How I kill insects before bringing roses into the basement is to leave them out in a killing frost or two. Easy peasy and works like a charm.

Sharon, the trap is called Dynatrap. Don't know if it works for midge, though.

Good to know, Mad Gallica!

Rebecca

So bti in mosquito dunks do list midges but you would need to make a drench from it. The problem would be in the timing of the drench which would be nearly impossible to accomplish.

LOL @ Rebecca on the hunt you down with a big stick...lol

Sharon, it's DynaTrap. I got the 1 acre one for my 60 x 60 foot back yard. I know it's over kill, but West Nile Virus is NASTY. And I like to be out in the yard. No mosquitos even at night. Love it!

Rebecca

Thanks Patty and Rebecca. Dynatrap! Dang that auto-correct!! I did search on Amazon but couldn't find one that had the amount of blue like yours does. I wonder if it makes a difference? I think other commenters thought that the blue would attract thrips and midges-then Zap!! A bit pricey when there are roses to buy ;-) but worth it. We have dogs and heart worm is very prevalent here. Actually two of our past dogs were diagnosed and treated for it. Plus we have Eastern Equine Encephalitis here to worry about as well as West Nile Virus. And now a new deer tick illness that has killed, I believe, 8 people in Massachusetts. And we thought lyme disease was bad enough. Some of the beneficial nematodes, Nemaseek being one, list ticks as a target insect so I'll be purchasing some in the spring since I read summersrythm's post that said they need over 45 temps to survive.

mad- So the little suckers don't drown? I would think the eggs would be encapsulated somehow though to protect against drowning like a chicken egg. Would the go into a kind of suspended animation and not hatch until the conditions are favorable? There's just so little info available on detailed rose midge life cycle. How do you handle new spring rose purchases? No killing frosts at that point. Would a quarantine work? If so, for how long to break the cycle? Do rose midge breed and reproduce from spring through frost? And I thought the monthlong assault of Japanese beetles was bad enough.

sharon

Midge breed from spring through frost, increasing their rate of reproduction based on temperature. We're at the fastest rate now which is why I went from a few roses to none. I also had a great spring flush. on all but Viking Queen, but she's only a 2nd year climber. I think it was the milder winter without an extended period of killing frost, followed by the crazy freeze-thaw period many of of encountered that's led to this terrible infestation. However, folks like Sam and Moses regularly get cold weather for months, so that's probably incorrect thinking.

In any case once they hatch there can be many cycles going on at once. I'm sure some get blown in, also just like thrips. One article I read said they were imported, but others say not. What a godsend if the nematodes worked. I wonder which ones were used in the study that said they didn't. Maybe they weren't the correct ones.

Perhaps a dormant oil spray in spring would help. since they can also pupate in the stems. I hope my experiment will show if that's true, but of course, there's always the wind. I'm not sure little bands with their delicate roots would survive a wash. Perhaps just put down some chewing or loose leaf tobacco as a mulch on the pots. That would be doable and not expensive for a few bands. They also sell the stems for pigeon bedding. However, I found it easy to just cover them with landscape fabric or plastic bags.

vaporvac- Ugh!! So they're here basically the whole growing season. How is your plastic experiment working? Do your roses still look good? I hate the thought of no mulch though. Our gardens are supposed to be beautiful. :-(

I found a source for rose midge, thrips and rose chafers specific nematodes from an Ontario company. They ship to the US. I don't know if the rose midge is different in Canada than here but I'm thinking of buying this to see if it works. I'd like to call or email them first to get more info.

"Canadian Beneficial Nematodes must be applied when flower pests are found in the soil
ROSE CHAFER: Nematodes should be applied in late July after the adults are observed.
ROSE MIDGE: Nematodes should be applied in late fall and again in early spring
THRIPS: Nematodes should be applied weekly throughout the growing season."

http://www.naturalinsectcontrol.com/product.php?id=000000486

I also found this article on nematodes from the actual company that raises nematodes. They have question and answer forum. They're more geared to greenhouses though.

https://hydro-gardens.com/nematodes/

Sharon

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0196PJH0I/ref=asc_df_B0196PJH0I5107423/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B0196PJH0I&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198092304429&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15485089211730825497&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9020931&hvtargid=pla-319869415648

Light bulbs need to be changed annually, purchased from the company,or on Amazon. Also, needs to be hung from a hook and plugged in. Dynatrap customer service is excellent if you have any issues with the unit.

Rebecca

I'll comment in detail on the other midge strategy post after I see a few more days growth, but it is working extremely well, enchanted. Actually only one burnt tip on the only plant I didn't protect and one bent bud on another, but it obviously was from prior infection. Munstead Wood is actually setting big buds again.

I prefer the plastic to no roses or growth. Each node can apparently support three sets of leaves and some of my plants used up all three becoming stumps basically, which is especially ugly on beautiful new basal growth. I'm undecided about trying landscaping cloth as I'm not sure how large the emerging midge is or how small the falling larvae. It seems to be working on my potted plants, however. I don't think if you caught it in the spring you'd have to keep it on all season. I'm putting plants in front of them anyway, so maybe it will just "blend". The main advantage of LC is ease of watering.

vaporvac- Best of luck to you. Thanks so much for taking the time to post. I have some contractor bags just need to cut them up. I don't know what I'm going to do with my 2 yards of mulch though.

Landscape cloth does offer that advantage but the weave might allow for the midge to come through. What a curse these things are!

Rebecca- thanks for the link to the one you bought. I found the exact same one at Newegg with free shipping for $118.00 :-) I'm hoping this will attract the gypsy moths too. What a scourge they are!! It seems there are way too many insects to battle!

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA39157E9466&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC--

Sharon

enchanted, I'd go ahead and use the mulch and just put the bags on top. My beds just had a few inches of wood chips laid. Hopefully, we won't have to use them forever and the mulch helps keep down weeds and eventually becomes compost.

thanks. Will do :-)

I'll be trying beneficial Nematodes in Sept then again in April to see what happens...

I'm just trying things...I really have no answers yet...

" Rose Midge Cycle"

Any system you may choose to limit midge impact will be linked to this reproductive rhythm. The insect completes one life cycle every 12-16 days. The warmer the season the more rapid this cycle is finished. In the spring the adult female emerges from the ground and mates laying eggs in the delicate new growth shoots of the rose bush under attack. Within 2 days the eggs hatch and the emerging larva (maggot) begins feeding on the internal structure of these leafy tips. This goes on for 5 to 7 days until the mature larvae drops to the soil and pupates by constructing a white silk cocoon beneath the ground surface. It is the damage to the new rose growth that results in the complete lose or distortion of the rose bud. Control of this midge damage requires interference with this insect’s life cycle.

Jim, which nematodes are you buying and from where? The ones I found were specific for rose midge, rose chafer and thrips but they come from Canada. I'd prefer something from the US just in case the rose midge here are a bit different than the Canadian ones.

Sharon