Thanks, Vaporvac and Desertgarden. Yes, I've had lots of powdery mildew. I do every spring, but this year it has hung around longer than any other. Pretty much everything else has finally shaken it off. I have seen plenty powdery mildew, and while that could be part of the problem, I feel there's more to it. She looks bad all the time. When there's no powdery mildew, the foliage is still crappy. She looks bad in spring, summer, fall and winter. I agree with you Vap, that she looks thirsty. The thing is, she always looks thirsty. She looks thirsty first thing in the morning after the hose has been dripping by her for a long time the night before. It doesn't make a difference, more water or less water. Her blooms fade quickly in the summer sun, but they keep coming and look perfect otherwise. So Desertgarden, yours look the same? Do they have powdery mildew, or just all around bad looking leaves? You don't know if it's a particular disease or insect problem? I thought this rose was a nobrainer for S CA. Instead, it's my worst looking rose of all. I'm not one to hastily SP a rose, but this isn't a new problem. She's looked like this for a few years. She's not staying if this keeps up, even though she is constantly blooming. She's the one I see as I stand at the kitchen sink, and it just bugs me! I'm hoping to fix this rather than SP.

It's awfully bright out now, but her blooms are still always nice.

Thank you, Jackie. I trust your knowledge of Tea roses very much, so I will proceed to treat her accordingly. I will begin with more frequent deep watering. About how long before I should expect to see some improvement? After a reasonable amount of time, I'll look into the Bayer Advanced Disease Control. So the BADC won't harm any bugs? Do you think this would be a "one time fix", or would I need to use it regularly? I might consider using it once or twice to cure it, if the additional watering doesn't do it. However, I am totally unwilling to keep spraying regularly. I'd rather find a different rose than be spraying this one to keep it looking good. Thanks so much, Lisa

I think that because your bush has such a bad case of PM, I would try the BADC once, to calm it down. It does not hurt bugs. One thing I do not know, which is whether those very diseased & damaged leaves would "get better", even if you get rid of the PM. What I would do if it were mine, is:

1) Prune it down to about half of its height (even the new growth on yours has PM), & cut off the worst damaged leaves.

2) Spray it well with BADC.

3) Water it a LOT, frequently, as long as it has good drainage. You are in not just a hot but a dry climate, like mine except even hotter.

4) Keep watering it extra.

5) WAIT - it may go dormant in the summer heat, so you need to wait a bit to see new growth - perhaps until it gets cooler.

6) When it starts to get new growth, check for symptoms of PM (curled up leaves). If they are "clear", I would feed it with some sort of rose food (food only), just follow the directions. If the new growth is not clear, personally I would spray it again, and then feed it.

Keep up with the extra water - when I forget to do that with mine, the PM comes back.

Good luck - it is a fabulous rose - I'm sure you have enough patience to make yours happy.

Jackie

Another thought - I am not suggesting you need to spray it regularly - just once or twice to get the PM under control. As I said, I never spray mine. I keep the PM under control by watering it and pruning, and feeding.

Jackie

Powdery Mildew.. for Duchesse d' Brabant and MjS, Lisa. In fact, I think this year DbB could be associated with SDLM Rouge having P.M. too. I have two other SDLM Rouge growing in other parts of the garden... no P.M. I have concluded that it is micro climate related (one DbB is drastically worse than the other), and as Jackie and Vaporvac suggested a need for more water.

I have a Darlow's Enigma that required zero drip irrigation watering from October through late April ( I moved it to a corner and never sent irrigation up to where it was planted not caring if it survived or not) It survived and bloomed during early Spring, without watering at all until May. I am just to the point where water hogging rose divas are less desirable, and if MORE water or whatever is provided for a rose, it had better at least look really good for more than a couple of weeks. YMMV

My DbB were healthy 2-gallon plants when I received them. They are just over 3 years old. The plant with a minor case of P.M. is about 5'x4', whereas the one that has suffered with P.M. is about 3'x2'. Last year, I was going to shovel prune the smaller one, but upon inspection, it definitely showed signs of being water stressed. This year, it was appropriately watered and has had major P.M... Spraying could ultimately be the solution, but I am not going to... that DbB is out of here!! Seems like you have a little more due diligence left with yours....

Good luck!

I've had Duchesse de Brabant before, when the weather was still much more normal, and there was no problem, although the leaves always looked just slightly curled compared to other roses. Right now, I do not believe this rose can do well in full sun, and mine is planted against the house, with only a few hours of morning sun, and it's full of buds and blooms. The newer leaves look very healthy, but the older leaves just look unsightly, but there is no mildew, although there was a bit during the wet part of spring. It's possible that this rose is too fragile for our present climate and lack of rain in southern California, as I now perceive Mme. Antoine Mari to be, which has wonderful leaves and awful flowers. We can no longer assume that the roses that were previously described as needing full sun can now survive in that position, much less look wonderful. The flowers of your DdB are still wonderful.

Jackie, your whole plant of Duchesse de Brabant is divine.

Lisa, I have 3 DdB's in my present garden. They have been in for 6 years, and have never wowed me. I had it in a previous garden, where I watered more frequently, and it was a good rose there. On the other hand, there was one growing on the verge outside an nursery, and it always looked good. I'm sure the fellow didn't water it, as it was quite a way from the gate, and he didn't like roses.

It is a pretty rose when it does well, but........

I grow both DdB and Mme Joseph Schwartz. MJS is a phenomenal rose for me. Blooms about 9 months of the year (not in summer). It's gotten huge and when it blooms there are just gobs and gobs of blooms. It's just a beautiful rose, and my favorite and the star of my garden, I think. I haven't seen anything like the pictures of Lisa's roses. MJS is pretty disease-free. My DdB is not in a good spot so I can't comment on her. I've planted a second one in better spot so will see how she'll do there. I have this desire to have a beautiful DdB next to my already beautiful MJS. If I can ever get DdB to be as prolific as MJS, well that's my dream image for that part of my yard.

I wonder if MJS is a healthier, easier, or maybe even better rose that DdB. I seem to see more issues (posted here) about DdB than MJS,, at least it seems so.

Hope I haven't gotten off topic too much!

Lisa, good luck and keep us posted

What Jackie said. My DdB behaves the same when water stressed. I believe she's a water hog. Give her more water or move her to a spot with better retaining soil.

I agree with both Jackie and Nik. I, too, think that DdB is a water-hog.

But I also have come to believe that some clones are more, and some less, prone to problems with mildew. I know where there's a really good one ... I had it, but lost it, and I want to re-collect it. If I manage to do that, I'll share.

Having had Mme. Joseph Schwartz in the past, I agree she is a better rose than DdB. She was in the wrong place, on a slope in the hot sun, but in the beginning was magnificent. Here is a picture of my DdB which shows better-looking leaves than Lisa's bush.

Thank you so much for the help. I'll be pruning her down and giving her a spray. I'm a bit confused/upset about the fact that DdB is listed as an Earthkind Rose. I did my research before purchasing and placing her. Given the fact that DdB is both a Tea AND an Earthkind Rose, I thought I had chosen well. I'm pretty surprised to hear Nik and Jeri refer to her as a "water-hog". My soil is amended clay, and holds water well. This bed is at the bottom of a slope, so any runoff also goes to her.(Not that there's much of that lately.) There are. Shasta daisies, a huge Dahlia, Prince Charles clematis, and Alnwick Castle rose, in the same bed/exposure/water, and doing just fine. She must really want a LOT of water. I thought I was giving her enough, but apparently not. She is the largest rose in that bed, so it makes sense that she would need more. Something else just now crossed my mind. There is a bunch of that creeping Vinca to the left of her. It's been a nightmare to get rid of. It spreads by underground runners. I wonder if the Vinca is robbing DdB of her water? Lisa

Ingrid, we crossposted. Yours is indeed lovely, as is Jackie's. I wish mine looked so good. It's been the shameful rose of the garden for the past couple years. I hope I won't need to move mine. The last thing I need is more work. I can't get over the Earthkind thing!? Lisa

Ingrid -- Is it the climate? I've never seen DdB look quite like that.

Earthkind roses do not perform well in my climate, Lisa. Some of the Earthkind roses that do not seem to fare well here are not stellar in Ingrid's garden either (Mme. Antoine Mari, Belinda's Dream and now Duchesse d' Brabant.. for example). I am beginning to think that while they can take high temperatures, they need more humidity mixed in. I think it is just too dry here. Maybe that is why in my climate, and possibly yours, these roses are major "water hogs".

Duchesse d' Brabant - November, for a couple of weeks. It is as good as this rose gets in my garden... The blooms are as expected... the leaves have never been great

(sorry, this blurred image is the only one I have)

Were not the first Earth Kind trials done in Texas, with WAY higher humidity than we have in CA? I have not been keeping up - have other trials been done in other places? As usual, it is location, location, location with roses (as well as real estate).

Jackie

Re Mme Joseph Swartz, I have that one too, in less sun than my DdB, and I do not think it is a "different" rose. It is a color sport of DdB. I know this for a fact, because mine keeps reverting on part of it to DdB. Of course, it might be the specific clone - my DdB is a rooted cutting of a 100+ year old one, and my MJS was purchased and planted in the 1970s (so, 40+ years old). Here is a pic of my MJS with its DdB canes - yes, I have checked, and they are on the same bush.

Jackie

The EarthKind Trials were conducted in Texas (for sure), and humid areas of the U.S (I believe). However, one never knows how a rose will perform in our gardens until we try it (trial and error). Spice and Georgetown Tea, both Earthkind roses, perform well here. I have procrastinated about looking into the lineage of the Earthkind roses to see if there are genetic consistencies among the roses that do not perform well. I think by growing the roses, we are learning......

jeri, now that you mention it, my rose doesn't have the typical cupped form of DdB. I wonder if it's because of the heat of summer or the limited amount of direct sunlight it gets. The fragrance is correct, and it's one of the few teas, other than Mme. Joseph Schwartz, that I can actually smell. It's almost three years old so the flowers should be mature. I'll have to revisit that in the cooler autumn weather.

Jackie, I had always understood that Mme. Joseph Schwartz was a sport of DdB, and I also often had pink flowers on my MJS. HMF says that it was a seedling of DdB until the 1990, when it became a sport. I'm not quite sure how to interpret that statement.

My DdB does not always have cupped blooms - just sometimes. Other times they are way more open.

Jackie

They did trial in Columbus, Oh. which were the first ones outside of the South. The 1st ones were in Texas at TA&M.

Given the present warming trend, I wish they would conduct trials in southern California, although they might have to modify some of the criteria, such as amounts of water given. Roses such as La Marne (which turned a dirty gray color), Carefree Beauty, Belinda's Dream, New Dawn, Cl. Pinkie (mildew), Madame Antoine Mari (can't stand dry heat) and Souvenir de St. Anne's (individual flowers don't last long) are all roses that did not do well in my admittedly difficult garden. However, some have and there may be more that I haven't tried and am not aware of.

Earthkind Trial Gardens as of 2009.

States with Earth-Kind Trial Gardens: Alabama, Alaska, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia

Texas Counties with Earth-Kind Rose Trial Gardens as of 12 April 2009:
Angelina, Austin, Brazoria, Brazos, Burnet, Cooke, Dallas, El Paso, Ellis, Galveston, Grimes, Harrison, Henderson, Hidalgo, Hood, Hunt, Jackson, Jefferson, Johnson, Kaufman, Llano, McLennan, Midland-Ector, Montague, Montgomery, Nueces, Parker, Potter, Randall, Rusk, Smith, Somerville, Tarrant, Tom Green, Travis, Walker, Wichita, Wilbarger, Wood.

Countries:

• Bermuda (Bermuda Rose Society)
• Canada (Canadian Rose Society)
• India (Indian Rose Federation)
• New Zealand (New Zealand Rose Society)

I thought I'd chime in about the water consumption piece. I live in a temperate rainforest climate, and DdB is one of the best teas for my garden. She has become my absolute favorite! I can imagine that she needs a lot of irrigation in hotter, drier climates. Many Teas that thrive in those areas of the country aren't as adapted to mine. In Portland, DdB has been a wonderful, disease free, continuously blooming plant with very, very little or no balling. Her leaves are wavy and light green and oh-so-clean. Alas, I leave most Teas to gardeners in the warmer, drier regions...and John the Tea Whisperer who lives across town. Carol

DdB wasn't all that happy-looking here (pm), though she grew robustly. Water hogs aren't too much at home here, usually.

Ingrid, I am also wondering if your DdB is the same as what I've seen grown under that name. I don't see the light green wavy leaves and cupped blooms that I'm accustomed to on your plant. Of course, I've never grown roses in your climate either! Carol

Well, I only went to Home Depot, as they had a BBQ on sale that I needed. Every Bayer product contained some sort of insecticide so I came home with nothing. I did see Dr. Earth brand fungicide, but didn't know if it would be as effective. I'll check if Lowes carries the Disease Control. Lisa

Carol, the leaves in the picture are new ones, and further down the older ones are move wavy. If you magnify the picture you'll see even the young ones are somewhat cupped, quite different from the completely flat leaves of its neighbor, Blush Noisette. It's the fragrance that has me convinced because I know of no other pink tea that has that fragrance. I'll keep an eye on it and see if the shape of the bloom changes when it's cooler.

Ingrid, thank you for the info on your DdB. I will never hang a sign that says "Tea roses identified here." Teas must be one of the most changeable of all classes and one of the most fascinating! I love the book by the Australian Tea rose ladies. The blooms on your plant are some of the fullest I've seen. Beautiful! I agree that DdB has a distinctive, and lovely, scent. You've inspired me! As soon as the sun goes behind the hills, I plan to go out and sniff the blooms on mine. Carol

I quit paying a lot of attention to the Earthkind Trials, because there is NO similarity between the conditions those trials are conducted in, and the conditions where I live. NONE. Nada.

Not-so-much here either, but they sure are helpful in central and north TX! :-) Carol

I have an update on my miserable looking Duchesse de Brabant. I looked her over this morning, and I think she looks much better! I took some pictures, and once I located this post to update, and viewed the old pictures, I KNOW she's looking better. It's been 6 weeks, and when I compare the old photos with today's, the improvement is obvious. You all have been great help! I felt rather ashamed of her, and embarrassed that it WAS powdery mildew after all. I see a lot of PM around these parts, but DdB was so severely affected that I thought it was more. I'd never had a rose so disfigured by PM, and so unable to shake it off once full summer hit. Thank you all for your help. Here are some of this mornings pictures. Do you see the improvement that I see? Lisa

Wow, Lisa, so much better! I'm so happy for you.

Thanks, Ingrid. I ended up hardly cutting any off of her, just the very worst looking old foliage. I used an organic fungicide, Serenade. I've been giving her extra water, and trying to keep the vinca away from her. I think that invasive stuff was robbing her of H2O! Lisa

She looks fantastic, Lisa! What a relief it must be for you to see her looking so good at last. So, what did you do to her in the end exactly to bring about this improvement, and do you think cooling temps and recent rain have helped? (Until scientifically proven otherwise, I'll probably continue to believe that fresh rain contains some sort of Magical Therapeutic Healing Agent, as yet unidentified by science, and certainly not present in town water main supplies and the like...) :-)

Ahh - cross-posted with your reply to Ingrid!

Yes! Very relieved that DdB is on the mend. She'd been hideous for so long, cringeworthy. She's in a prominent spot, so there was no way to avoid looking at her:) We only got a good little shower on Friday night, from what I hear. I was out of town, so I missed it. That's the only rain DdB has received. We have had some cooler temps, with higher than usual humidity, but we also had a very dry 100 plus period about two weeks ago. I totally agree about rainwater being basically magic tonic for plants. There's just nothing like it. The roses know the difference between hose water and rainwater. That's obvious! I'm guessing you don't receive enough of the "magic water" over there, either? Lisa

Magic water is really scarce down here also.. With an average of less than 11'' annually, most of which concentrated in just 4 months during the 'winter', one can only grow olive trees, lean wine grapevines, fig trees and pistachio trees without irrigation..Also prickly pears lol
lol... Roses have to survive on my hard alkaline well water whether they like it or not (they don't...).

It's even worse when the water doesn't sink into the ground at all. I've definitely established that the soil is hydrophobic, to an even worse degree than I had thought now that we haven't had rain here for many months. We're going to have to put the deep watering stakes everywhere, with larger roses and trees getting two, which will not be cheap at $10 for one. The diamonds and furs are off the table, but I doubt that the squirrels, rabbits, snakes et al. will care much.

Yes, that alkaline water is hard on roses, and most plants in general. I know someone with the $ to spend, who had an elaborate water filtration system put in. They have specific "settings" for the garden water vs drinking water etc. She doesn't grow roses, but her organic vegetables grow like something I've never seen the likes of! She told me they were different ph's as the alkaline was better for healthful drinking, while the more acidic better for the garden. She's less than a mile from me. Perhaps I should bring over my buckets! Lisa

Nik, no wonder the olive tree in my front yard thrives! It requires a yearly(costly) pruning to keep it from shading everything, the shallow roots kill the grass underneath, and it's currently dropping messy olives all over. I have to be so careful not to track the juice into the house after stepping on them. Those olives stain! Lisa

Lisa, your olive tree sounds like my fig tree!

I'm so happy DdB is shaping up for you! She's deliriously beautiful when she's good. I wonder if there's a product that can be added to acidify water and used on just a few needy plants now and again? I'm all for making minor changes which involve less work if they can nip at the problem. Life's just packed with projects and chores, yes? Carol

It sure is, Carol! I may need to get the deep irrigation stake thing, like Ingrid too. I think Strawchicago on the organic Roses forum has written about acidifying her water. I can't remember the results and need to check. I believe vinegar was one thing she tried. It would be nice if vinegar helped. At least it's cheap and can be bought by the gallon. Adding a bit in some water once in a while would be easy. At least for some roses that look to be struggling with the alkaline conditions. I'm not up to doing any constant or complicated regimens. I'm going to search for that old post. I'll post if I find anything good. Lisa

Miracid perks up citrus trees during the Winter when they have been on tap water for months. I haven't tried it on roses.

Good idea, Cath. I was reading that soil sulpher may help as well. The vinegar thing, I'm not so sure about. I know someone suggested fertilizing my hybrid musks with fertilizer for acid loving plants. I wonder if more of the roses would like that. From what I have gleaned, those grafted on Dr. H don't need that.

Cath. OT: I hope you found my reply about staking dahlias. I was away, and slow to respond. Lisa

Oh Lisa, your reply was great! Now I have to research Cattle panels. Never heard of them before. Take care.

Cath

Good,good. Just didn't want you to think I didn't answer:) I know those panels cost about $20-$30. I came home to find a few of my dahlias laying on the ground on Monday. I had them leaning into some roses, but they got heavy. I also discovered that a gopher had trashed one while I was away. Not everything is in gopher cages, and dahlia tubers must be delicious. Those crazy critters love them:( Lisa

Acidifying irrigation water is the way professional growers do it. Phosphoric, nitric or sulphuric acid solutions are used depending on requirements and equipment used. For the amateur only phosphoric is recommended. Citric or acetic acids (vinegar) can be used without requiring special equipment but due to their organic nature they readily break down on soil contact thus the benft they provide is very temporary. Never acidify your water when it is going to be delivered via metal pipes or equipment (e.g. pumps). You should acidify downstream of a pump using appropriate synthetic dispensing mechanism and pipes.

We've had unseasonably cool weather, and the Duchess is very happy about it. I am too!

That's DdB in all her glory, Lisa! I'm so glad she is giving you her best after all her earlier drama. Congrats on the cooler temps, too. Carol

Lisa, I tried more water for my "Georgetown Tea" that looked like your DdB before photos and it really helped. Thanks to you and Jackie for helping.