This is a double post with the electrical wiring forum.

It would be helpful to know the age of your existing AC condenser. What is your location? I will assume you still have unresolved AC problem, the compressor is not running. I would throw the first dealer ($3000) to the curb. It is true that from a safety issue a disconnect should be located at the condenser. Not sure what is code for your area. Your electrical panel is inside your house? However, I would want the AC diagnosed first before adding a disconnect. I would call another HVAC tech/dealer and explain about the electrical setup and that you have an AC problem. When was AC last serviced by a dealer?

IMO

Sounds like a home warranty service. The providers that work for Home Warranty companies look for reasons to deny you coverage.

Tell us the whole story, not just bits and pieces of it.

PS: This IS normal for home warranty provider services. It is also normal for 'free estimate' type services. These are nothing more than high pressure sales leads in the case of the latter.

'They call it a magic 8 ball, but no magic really comes from it....'

I posted a response in the electrical forum. This is a safety issue that should be addressed in my opinion. I don't understand why it would cost $3000 to add a disconnect box if the service panel is nearby.

mike, the 3K was for an updated service panel...

TD

Hi my name is Denise, I have been a mechanical and electrical designer for 20+ years for residential and commercial building. In response to your question the technician is correct. You require by code to have a disconnect on both the furnace and your outdoor condenser unit. It doesn't matter if electrical panel close to the furnace, it is finding the breaker that is time consuming. Your condenser is always located outdoors and is a must to have a disconnect within arms reach of the unit. The hum he is hearing at your panel is over working and can cause potential fire, have the electrical place his meter at the main disconnect, i.e. 60 or 100 amp breaker. If the draw is greater than 80% at maximum capacity at the main fuse you have an issue. As for the price for changing the panel is a little rich. Always get 3 quotes with a breakdown of the tasks for comparison.

Hi Denise, can you provide us with a code citation for the "arms reach" distance. I'd also like to see some documentation about the hum as a symptom of the panel over working.

Hi ionized_gw, I don't own the CSA C22.1 Canadian Electrical Code on hand. It is a $200 purchase, and trying to be self employed as well as find a job. I am a HVAC designer for residential and small commercial with electrical experience from previous employers such as Sandwell, Zarpac, Lehmann and Associates etc. I have done many hundreds of drawings for commercial equipment installation and everyone of them require local disconnects as well a disconnect at the main panel or MCC (motor control center). Consider someone working on equipment, having to walk back to the panel to throw the breaker. Too much time is consumed working and testing the equipment for final operation. ESA must also sign off on the final installation and not having a disconnect at the equipment is a health and safety issue as well as mandatory on every motorized equipment installation.

As for the hum in the panel a slight hum is okay excessive is not, see the link provided for the explanation.

https://energytoday.biz/blog/4-reasons-your-circuit-breaker-panel-is-buzzing

It may be a Canadian thing. It looks like in the USA, a breaker in a main service panel or sub panel right next to the aircon unit, or even at considerable distance as long as it is within sight, counts as a valid disconnect.

That link indicates that "humming" as the OP described it, is not a worry at all. It says that sizzling or buzzing should be checked out. If it is humming, teach it the words :-)

Disconnects are to be within sight and less than 50', and can be in the main panel, BUT, from a design aspect, the disconnect has to be very close because the flexible conduit used to go between the disconnect and AC can only be 6' without having to find some crazy way to strap the conduit to dirt.;)

Disconnects are often used when a furnace is in the same room as a panel because the furnace often requires additional protection, and sometimes for ease of servicing/diagnosis. A fuse is used in an SSU (switch fuse combo)

I believe this is why in the USA we stopped taking Canadian money as payment.

'in most jurisdictions' in USA the ability to be able to see the breaker panel (within sight) of the condenser will typically satisfy the code.

In some jurisdictions they may require the disconnect to be fused. In some jurisdictions this 'may' relate only to commercial equipment of such a size.

Blanket statements: do not satisfy anything in this industry.

Since this is a safety issue, common sense goes a long way. Disconnect should be at the condenser.

IMO

I don't understand how bashing Canada has anything to do with this discussion.

The OP needs to talk to his local code official as to what is required. If he doesn't want to change it that this his his decision. There is always a HVAC service guy out there that will work on anything for the right price.

With special reference to the OP, here is what I'd summarize what I have seen so far. I thought that the electrician said that the installation is fine, but rereading, he should be consulted again to see if local regs require a disconnect closer than the NEC. If so, the HVAC guy does not want to work on OP's AC some reason. Maybe he will return with the right information presented or you can find someone else.

It appears that the NEC regs are met in this case. A close-by disconnect is not required, but as Fred S pointed, there needs to be a junction box close by if the length of flex conduit is restricted so why not install a disconnect rather then a junction box with wire nuts? You must have something to make the connections in, right? That would depend on whether you trust a pull-out, or whatever kind of disconnect, sufficiently compared to a wire-nut connection, I suppose. It seems unlikely that wire in conduit is pulled all the way to the main panel.

Fused disconnect necessary for the equipment or required by code? I've always looked at fused disconnects as an unnecessary potential failure point rather and extra protection. Fred seems to be indicating that the requirements of the equipment might dictate a fuse that has better protective capacity than the circuit breakers. Austin indicates that he has seen local requirements for it. If It were my problem, I'd leave the fuses out if I could.

Hi igonized_gw

The electrical code is not just a Canadian thing. For your information the Canadian Electrical codes is duplicated and modified from the National Electrical Code. The NEC is all of North America, best business practices. I have dealt with companies such as Kimberly Clark, Ford, GM, Proctor and Gamble just to name a few. If you read the NEC code it is mandatory for a disconnect near a motor for safety of the contractor working on the equipment. The other mandatory item is they must have a lock-out/tag-out on each disconnect being at the panel or MCC and at the disconnect the contractor is working at in case someone throws the breaker and electrocutes the technician working on said equipment. I would hate to hear that a technician got electrocuted for not following procedure, so will his family.

Yes, and, yielding to a local electrician, in this case 50 feet appears to be "close" for a residential HVAC disconnect.

430.102(B) Motor. A disconnecting means shall be provided for a motor in accordance with (B)(1) or (B)(2).

(1) Motor Disconnect. A disconnecting means for the motor shall be located in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location.

(2) Controller Disconnect. The controller disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means for the motor if it is in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location.

Exception to (1) and (2): The disconnecting means for the motor shall not be required under either condition (a) or condition (b), provided the controller disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) is individually capable of being locked in the open position.

The provision for locking or adding a lock to the controller disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed.

(a) Where such a location of the disconnecting means for the motor is impracticable or introduces additional or increased hazards to persons or property

(b) In industrial installations, with written safety procedures, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment.

NEC; 440.14 Location.

Disconnecting means shall be located within sight from and readily accessible from the air-conditioning equipment or refrigerating equipment. The disconnecting means shall be permitted to be installed on or within the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.

The disconnecting means shall not be located on panels that are designed to allow access to the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment or to obscure the equipment nameplate(s).

.

A fuse is still often used on a low tec furnace because it provides different and more accurate protection, such as a 12 amp time delay fuse rather than just a 15 amp breaker.

HACR Circuit Breakers have been common for a long time, and pretty much made fuses for residential AC units obsolete. The popular AC disconnect comes with a pull-out bar/bus you can put in your pocket.

Mike, you can buy similar disconnects without fuses.

Ah, I see I was a little slow. Yes, sometimes it is, apparently, easier or possible to fit a fuse to a specific purpose than a breaker. In today's world, in addition, with AC units becoming more efficient, you might be installing a lower-power AC unit on an oversize circuit. The easiest way to fix protection for the equipment might be a fused disconnect. i understand that in some cases, the pull-out or switch can be replaced by a fuse-holder or breaker from the same manufacturer.

If you read the NEC code it is mandatory for a disconnect near a motor for safety of the contractor working on the equipment. The other mandatory item is they must have a lock-out/tag-out on each disconnect being at the panel or MCC and at the disconnect the contractor is working at in case someone throws the breaker and electrocutes the technician working on said equipment.

Yes all true, however these are mostly commercial / industrial type rules. IE: disconnect near motor for safety of operator, contractor etc. to be able to disengage powered equipment. If this was the rule for a residence you would need a disconnect for every electrical plug in the home to comply with these rules.

You can't put commercial / industrial equipment in the same group as residential. Two entirely different animals. While it's always a good thing to safe, these rules are over kill for residential environment.

The comment about not accepting Canadian Money was a joke. For some reason if you go across the border Canadians are more than eager to accept US money.

Here's why so you may 'finally' get the joke.

1 US Dollar equals

1.24 Canadian Dollar

The Canadian dollar is worth less. DUH.

Mike, they would welcome you with open arms. They make 24 percent more from you for every dollar you spend.

I am so glad to see this discussion regarding electrical and safety. Whether it is residential, commercial or industrial the NEC code covers all and best business practices. My discussion is with the condenser outside of the house that requires a disconnect, especially a technician is working on live equipment and a disconnect is not at his/her location during repair and testing of said equipment. As for electrical outlets (receptacles) inside the house, again to repair it you must throw the breaker. Same for outside receptacles, but with them they must be GFI's (ground fault interrupters), we don't want anyone electrocuted. People are not always aware of the code(s) whether it being building construction, electrical or plumbing. So many people take on projects without understanding the full scope of the project, and thus get themselves into issues they don't understand or hurt whether it is themselves or someone else. Dollars don't mean anything when someone is hurt or dead.

I was thinking in the same terms as Austin about motor disconnects, lathes, conveyors, drill presses,..., stuff that you can get yourself caught in. They got those big (most often) red buttons for that. We don't see them very much in residential installations :-) In between that extreme and convenience outlets on the other, we have the so common gray boxes with levers or pull-outs for hard-wired appliances. Honestly, I never thought of the pull-outs as "pull-out and carry aways". That does make a lot of sense as a safety procedure that approaches lock-out, tag-out without quite making it.

I've worked closely with a hand-full of Canadian scientists over the years, first as lab visitors from Winnipeg and later, Southeasterners as more resident scientists. They were smart, capable, fun and congenial one and all. They took some Canadian bashing well and dished out their share of "states" bashing in return. All with a deep underlying respect, of course. My life would be considerably less interesting without my "frost back" friends. They are so close to us, that it is tempting to think of them as the same with our common characteristics, but the differences are what makes the relationship interesting.

Working on packaging electronic gave me a greater understanding for safety. When you are before the courts the seal all and end all question that is mostly asked is did you do your due diligence when it comes to safety.

Can that person operate that equipment safely?

What is impeding from him/her shutting down the equipment due to safety reasons?

We use safety equipment when it comes to people working on equipment, such as light curtain, when there is a person happens to break the beam the equipment stops immediately. Also the use of pressure mat, when someone leaves the equipment unattended it stops automatically. These are just a few of safety equipment on the market.

What would you prefer? Just have to ask the question.

"If this was the rule for a residence you would need a disconnect for every electrical plug in the home to comply with these rules." - I hope that is just an exaggeration for effect. If not, whoever thinks that needs to pay more attention to the specific meaning of each word in the codes as the NEC defines them.

"You can't put commercial / industrial equipment in the same group as residential. Two entirely different animals. While it's always a good thing to safe, these rules are over kill for residential environment." - Hopefully, another general statement. "These rules" as specifically written in the NEC, will have written exceptions if it is meant to be different for residential - thereby being part of the rule, and no longer overkill. I have never felt the need to bend a rule for residential in the 25+ years I have had my electrical license.

"My discussion is with the condenser outside of the house that requires a disconnect," - There is nothing in the NEC that says disconnects can not be grouped, or in the same panel as other breakers as long as it is in sight of the equipment. There is nothing in the NEC that says a disconnect that is within sight of the equipment must have a lockout even if it is within a panel having many other breakers. The NEC does require each panel to be labeled so that it is evident which breaker belongs to the AC condenser.

"I was thinking in the same terms as Austin about motor disconnects, lathes, conveyors, drill presses,..., stuff that you can get yourself caught in. They got those big (most often) red buttons for that." - Those are part of the controller covered in 430.102(A), and certainly meant to be as close as practical (generally within arms reach) to the equipment work station. Controllers should not be confused with disconnects, and a disconnect is required in addition to a controller, or as the upstream part of a controller. I believe that if the only disconnect "in sight of" is part of the controller (the big red button), then it must have a lockout even if it is in sight of the equipment - which brings us full circle, back to needing a lockout again, and why specific terminology is crucial when discussing the NEC.

"You can't put commercial / industrial equipment in the same group as residential. Two entirely different animals. While it's always a good thing to safe, these rules are over kill for residential environment." - Hopefully, another general statement.

Nope, in the commercial and industrial realm you have much higher voltages. You could have 460V 3 phase, You could have 208/230V 3 phase, You could have 277V. You can also have 120V single phase with in the same building as these higher voltages.

Typically, but not always: in residences you have 240V 2 pole, and 120V 1 pole depending on the circuit.

In some localities it is required by code that the electrical circuit be run in conduit. Again this is mostly a requirement for commercial and industrial applications.

In Texas electrical runs are strung thru the attic with no conduit, once the wire breaches the house shell (if it is exposed outside the sheet rock wall as a connection to a water heater in a garage) it is typically required to be in some form of conduit or considered a code violation in Texas. While in some other jurisdiction the requirement may be the whole circuit be contained in electrical conduit.

The Texas electrical code is different in that regard from that of say 'Chicago' area.

This is 'why' you can not group residential and commercial and industrial applications into the same box. You could have (20) twenty ton package units sitting on a roof to cool and industrial building. They don't make 20 ton anything to cool a residence.

Different application. Different design. Different power requirements, Different code requirements.

I can't make it any more clear than this. As I said before: completely different animals.

Just remember even at 110V can kill a person if not handled properly. I would want a disconnect switch for my condenser right where I am working when I am fixing the equipment. I would need to power it and test to see if it is working properly. Ask yourself if you had to run into the house all the time to throw the breaker to make sure the equipment is operating as per manufacturers recommendation. Then you have a newbie not knowing any better work on repairs and not realize he has to go inside the house run down to the breaker to shut the power off each and every time. Then he/she decides it is not worth the aggravation and happens to electrocute himself/herself unintentionally. What do you tell the family? Sorry it is not my fault!! The NEC code applies to all voltages.

I think that Austin and I are looking at the same coin. Looking at the other side, a tradesperson that normally does residential (maybe some commercial) might get a chance to do some industrial work. I am sure that there is some learning or relearning that would need to be done. Some details are going to be different. At that point the decision is to bone up on the most relevant sections, or refuse the job because it is not worth the investment.

Here is an example that while might not be realistic, I hope is amusing. An electricain is asked to be a subcontractor for an outdoor pool installation in Barrow Alaska. He's never seen an outdoor swimming pool much less built one. He's a busy guy, booked up for the next 6 months. Obviously, he has never been involved in an outdoor pool installation, but he remembers there are specifics that he does not remember or did not learn the detail. Why should he be familiar with that part of the code?

Communication is often all about understanding a different point of view. It is perfectly understandable that someone working in industrial situations that has never considered a residential AC unit might be taken aback that he can't see a dedicated disco right next to it. An experienced person standing right next to him, and the compressor, points to the main panel 45 feet away and says that is is right there. You'd never want to have someone looking around in (line of sight) panels in a plant to find the breaker for a 30 HP mixer that requires shutting off for maintenance once a month or cleaning every day. Heck, you would not even consider using the type of disco used for residential HVAC equipment on a fractional HP motor, It is probably not durable enough. That is not what the situation is for the OP and other homeowners. The breaker as a disco is allowed and it works for me even though it might surprise someone who has not thought about it before.

In the same vein, I remember a question, I think, in this forum. As it spun out, the OP suggested that the wires in the romex should be colored to indicate which of the two hot busses that they originated on so that when working far from the panel, he could tell. The poster was an electrical engineer. It turns out that he was, as a colleague of mine puts it, a "5V electrical engineer". He is used to looking at low voltage wire looms connecting boards. Electricians and engineers that are in the field working all the time with what he was thinking of for the first time got a good laugh about that.

Just remember even at 110V can kill a person if not handled properly. I would want a disconnect switch for my condenser right where I am working when I am fixing the equipment.

Yes this is why GFCI's are present or 'should be present' in any bathroom or outdoor circuit.

A girl was recently in the news for being electrocuted because she grabbed her Iphone or tablet from bath tub and had the charger hooked up to it.

I also love it when the disconnect is right there within a few feet of the condenser, but the code as it is in Texas the requirement is that the electric panel be within sight of the condenser. Residence foot print is rarely longer than 50 feet. That satisfies the code for this region. (Unless the voltage to the condenser is 3 phase power... that is completely different, but 3 phase power is not that common in residential area.)

Typically in a residence you have only one electric panel where as a commercial or industrial application you could have 10's or 20's of them thru out the structure. This is another reason why there is a difference above and beyond that of different voltages and another reason why a disconnect at the appliance in question may require a disconnect above that of a near by electric panel.

Austin, in your area the condenser has to be on the same side of the house as the MAIN electrical panel?

Just to inform you when I go through home and assess the workmanship, I often wonder what people as thinking at the design stage before executing the project or in other words construction. No I have seen in many cases the condenser at the opposite end of the house. Then home owners wonder why the have so many issues with their home. Have you ever heard of the saying "Cause and effect" Did you ever think the longer the run, less that comes out the other end. Same goes with every thing. Power, water, refrigerants and gas for every length of run, elbows and T's reduces the pressure at the far end to the run. All this has to be calculated to minimize the pressure drop at the far end. Opps, I have a trickle coming out at this end what happened??

Austin, in your area the condenser has to be on the same side of the house as the MAIN electrical panel?

No, it really depends on the time period in which the home was built. Sometimes the panel is on the opposite side of the house (exterior wall). Sometimes the panel is in the garage (inside, outside facing wall).

Sometimes the panel is in the master bedroom closet, sometimes the panel is mounted exterior wall back of the house.

Probably more common now to have the panel inside garage off exterior facing wall.

On occasion I add a disconnect for the condenser when replacing said condenser to comply with the code, even though the area in which this work is done a permit is not required.

Newer homes are typically code compliant. If you understand the code for what is being done.

I often wonder what people as thinking at the design stage before executing the project or in other words construction.

No need to wonder, it's all about trying to cut costs. As it turns out, money is the root of all evil this evil (of being cheap, cost cutting whatever you wish to call it) contributes to your cooling and heating problems.

I grew up without air conditioning. They didn't call it that back then when referring to a home HVAC system. No, they called it 'Central Air Conditioning'.

Now because we are so cheap or contractors are put the screws to cut costs they stick the condenser on one side and as close to that condenser as you can you put the HVAC system.

So everything on one side of the house has short duct runs and everything on the opposing side has long duct runs. Then you wonder why one side of the house is so much cooler than the other or hotter in the case of a colder climate.

Doing it better costs more and in this economic climate money seems to be the only thing that matters.

The other side to this is that the real estate market in prices or cost of home is trending higher. People realize that (especially in my climate) if they replace the HVAC system it gives the appearance of a 'deal' if a home buyer is shopping and comparing two homes one home with an old HVAC system as opposed to one with a new HVAC system.

But in real estate world, just because your AC is new doesn't increase the value of the home necessarily. So buyer beware... no one is going to give you anything. It just doesn't work that way most of the time. When real estate prices go up the HVAC market does weird things because people have the tendency to move. Investment in HVAC is the last thing that comes to mind...

Also just because the AC is new doesn't necessarily mean it will be problem free for long...

With an additional comment so customers so you are more informed. This has been an industry that has evolved 30 years ago when cooling came to the house hold required choice. It has evolved over time and now it's fine tuning for efficiency and comfort. It is heat loss and heat gain calcutions on the construction, as well as sizing the duct for pressure loss and the route best for the space. The information given is only as good as the installation. Not everyone is knowable in designing HVac systems, but there are a whole lot out there that installs them without following best practices for the trade. All too often it's a job.

I see the disconnect box has the option to be locked. What size fits this? Yes I have bolt cutters.😉