Cp....it is too high for comfort. My son in law is a concrete foreman and code for him here is 7 1/2

i thought code was 7 1/2 for residential

is it really 7 3/4?

Where do you live? That is one of those things where some states tend to amend the IRC to revert back to their pre2000 codes. There are often a few categories such as commercial, residential exterior and residential interior.

What the heck? They can't change the design without your approval. Redo.

well at least in FL it's 7 3/4". They made my stairs originally 7 3/4" and I made them redo it to 7" risers. Wound up changing the landing too. Grrrr.

Illinois Fred. We built the dock and boathouse first. My GC built concrete steps from upper deck 7" rise with individual 11" treads. The stairway is fabulous. Wish I had a picture.

son in law does commercial.

Cp...So it happened to you too! Our basement stairway is anywhere from 7 3/4 to 8. It is just awful. And dh and I are not spring chickens.

Well ARG said that stairways are the (or one of the ) most common mistakes that happen. I believe it.

New England and Illinois seem to be the most up and down on stair treads and risers. (and a few other minor details) Some still use the old 8" max riser. Illinois has been especially sporadic between cities on which codes to follow. I think it may have something to do with Chicago trying to hold on to its, once upon a time, cuttting edge work/contributions into building codes. But, I digress.

You have a relatively good chance that this IBC/IRC is your code without amendments these days. I believe that Illinois still requires the specific code and which city's amendments that are to be followed written into the building contract, or it is automatically the standard IRC.

"Our basement stairway is anywhere from 7 3/4 to 8. It is just awful."

You should make sure that they actually own a pair of these before you let them start over.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Empire-3-4-in-Brass-Stair-Gauges-2-Pack-105/100162901

"Our basement stairway is anywhere from 7 3/4 to 8. It is just awful."

UGH! That is actually tough to do and proved the stair builder was out to lunch. That is the exact reason stair gauges and or template gauges are used, so that dies not happen..................

These dividers can be more accurate than stair gauges on a square, if you get an accurate measurement to start with.

Meeting with a gentleman in the morning that does nothing but stairways. Got a really good recommendation on him. Feeling hopeful and will let you know the outcome.

We had our meeting this morning with this gentleman. He is an Amish man that had to have a driver. He does nothing but stairways and this is his specialty. We looked at his portfolio. He builds custom newells, etc

The meeting was very positive. He took a bunch of measurements and calculations and discussed things with us and reassured us that both stairways could be torn out and re-built. And that we could get rid of the winders on the upper staircase. And get rid of the steepness in the basement staircase. He gave us details and we are pleased with his plans. So, this is what we are doing.

thanks for following my saga.

Boy I wish he lived in FL!

Sounds as if you're in good hands - keep us posted.

Too bad we can't see pictures of the stairs as they are now. It makes me curious as to what they were thinking. My guess is that they built the winders in a manner that caused the lower stairs to have to be steeper to get headroom under the winder platform. Which also makes me think the winders were like this, which are really awful,

Well it looks like I'm about to jump right into the boat with you! We have 3 staircases in our new build and they built one of them over the weekend. Most of the risers are 7 - 5/8" but the top step is 6"!

dbrad - are you doing wood treads? Did they use a 2x4 for temporary? And the landing is osb? If so then it will work out when they put the treads on. That is what they did on our build. Once treads were down it was fine.

Ah, good to know gpeach1. They did use 2x4s as treads so perhaps that's what they were thinking. I'll still watch the next 2 staircases closely but that gives me hope - thank you!

dbrad - That's so wrong. What did builder say? I gotta hear this one.

Well it looks like I'm about to jump right into the boat with you! We have 3 staircases in our new build and they built one of them over the weekend. Most of the risers are 7 - 5/8" but the top step is 6"

That doesn't even meet code! Also what do the specs on your plans call for?

Our plans have specific stair specs and call for 7 - 7/16" for all 3 staircases. The wrinkle is that we increased the basement wall height after our plans were finalized, which has changed a few things down there (of course the framers knew this though before they ever started). Until I hear different I'm chalking this up to yet another miscommunication with that basement height and their attempt to improvise. They've been told to fix it and I expect that they will. The other two staircases should be built according to the plan though. Hopefully they get those right on their first attempt.

Fred...they look like the image on the left in your first picture.

they are 11" treads. When he rebuilds he plans to use 10" treads (which was on the plan) which will give us one more step allowing us to get rid of the winders.

And he will take a little off the top and bottom step to account for the thickness of the 3/4" hardwood that we will be using..so those stairs will be the same rise.

as far as the basement stairway..who knows you may be right. But it is 8" on rise. I feel confident that it will be "fixed".

Our framers are good. I'm not bad mouthing them. I just think everyone can't build a stairway. This is the third house we have built and I have never had a really great stairway.

Dbrad....have your contractor look at it. Even if you use 3/4" hardwood on the floor level where the OSB is, that last floor level step is only going to be 6 3/4 high compared to about 7 5/8 on the other steps. It should be about the same.

not trying to freak you out here but just check. I may be a little more anal than some about stairs because I'm not a "spring chicken". But, if you have two more stairways to be built after this one, set the bar high now.

That great a difference in the height of individual risers is illegal and not allowed by any building code. Your building official will never approve it, so why should you? The Stair Boys know all of this if they've built more stairs than just yours...

Virgil..are you talking to me or dbrad or both of us, lol?

I'm not talking to anyone specifically...just commenting on what the building code requires for all stairs.

"Dbrad....have your contractor look at it. Even if you use 3/4" hardwood on the floor level where the OSB is," and then subtract about 3/4" in elevation on the steps below because the 1.5" thick temporary hem-fir will be replaced with a 3/4" hardboard... supposedly. The other 1/8" could possibly be just rough/poor measurement.

"Fred...they look like the image on the left in your first picture." Those do not meet code in most of the US. (Winders coming to a point, instead of 6" minimum tread) About the only places they do is where there is actually no legal code to refer to on the subject.

"Our framers are good. I'm not bad mouthing them. I just think everyone can't build a stairway." - I know plenty of good framers that don't understand stairs. I used to pick up some good side money doing stairs for other framing crews in my early 20s.

"Well it looks like I'm about to jump right into the boat with you! We have 3 staircases in our new build and they built one of them over the weekend. Most of the risers are 7 - 5/8" but the top step is 6"!"

Take off the temp. 2x4, add a 3/4" stair tread and you're at 6 3/4. Add 3/4 for the 2nd floor flooring and you're now at 7 1/2. Stay away from online message boards and you'll lose 90% of your stress. These boards are filled with ignorant homeowners trying to act as tradesmen....

ksc36, yes gpeach1 mentioned that yesterday and that's indeed what it looks like the plan is. Your comment about ignorant homeowners is way off base though. Perhaps my build is unusual, but if it were not for my input along the way, these framers would have made major mistakes on our home. I caught things such as walls framed at incorrect heights (wrong by over a foot, with a completed roof sitting atop them that had to be removed to correct), rafters pitched improperly (that also had to be completely removed and rebuilt), and much more.

Even as I reply to you this morning I'm coming up with a solution to a dormer framed 3 feet over from where it should be on the plans.

My opinion of my framers is much like that of ILoveRed - they seem to do good work and their carpentry skills seem solid. But when it comes to following the detailed plans they were provided? Yes, they needed some help from this "ignorant homeowner."

They aren't a good framing crew with all those mistakes. I framed for 15 years and although mistakes are made, they are fixed before anyone notices.

Well it's too bad I didn't hire you then. But the point is that there are times homeowners need to educate themselves and get involved in the process. Many of us congregate on message boards such as this to do just that.

Well I guess I'm another ignorant homeowner. We enlarged three windows from our dining room looking out onto our screen porch. Just yesterday I noticed that the rough opening wasn't centered on that wall.

I guess the framers didn't correct it before I caught it. Or maybe it would not have been corrected at all.

i still think that overall we have good framers. Maybe not perfect...but who is?

ksc, it's not necessary to be so insulting to those of us who hang out on these boards because we like to be informed and cautious about how we spend our hard earned $$$.

since he's here, ksc must like hanging out with us ignoramuses!

If I had stayed off message boards like these, I'd have a poorly designed kitchen, a shower with potential leaks, a weird front door elevation, board and batten with a noticeable seam and crappy windows. I fully admit I'm an ignorant homeowner. But I also have a desire to learn new things. I'm also fully invested in my home and want to do things right. Not because we hired bad contractors, but mainly because it's fun (mostly)! I get to learn about building stuff. How things fit together and why. Why some things are easy to do and some are hard (stairs). That's interesting to me. How boring our build would be if I just wrote checks to a builder and walked away without really understanding it. And how crappy our build would be because some subs don't do a great job and make mistakes that they don't fix. Not everyone is perfect and I don't pretend they should be.

I find that people who need to insult other people do so because they need to make themselves feel superior. Sad isn't it?

And in regards to the ignorant comment as a homeowner.

As an artist, I can tell you that being close to a work I sometimes miss obvious things that others might pick up. None of us are perfect and we do sometimes miss things. It doesn't mean because I missed creating the perfect ellipse in my vase drawing that I'm a crappy artist. It means I missed it. Nothing more, nothing less. When I discover it, or it's pointed out to me, I correct it.

My framers started putting window trim on the outside windows and I noticed the reveal on one side was 1/2" more than the other side. This had to do with the way the windows were put in. They fixed it.

They would be crappy framers if the mistakes were pointed out and they didn't correct it. Of course most of us can't be perfect like you seem to be ksc36. Must be kind of lonely living in your tower of perfection.

"They 'have' to follow the plans.....period!!! That's what they were hired for."

No, they have to build to code. When it comes to stairs, approved drawings are more like suggestions.

Architects can and do draw anything, code or not (I've seen the prints), and never get slapped with red tags as stair builders do. If a stair builder deviated from the drawings, it's more than likely because the drawings were wrong, not because of shortcuts or laziness. As a stair builder, if I had to choose between arguing with a homeowner, architect, or inspector, it certainly wouldn't be the latter.

ILoveRed, your story sounds like a classic case of "not enough run", Is there a doorway at the bottom of your stairs? Well if so, unless you move it, that's all the run you get; the rise is fixed, and math is cruel. That would explain substituting run-saving winders for the run-eating landing you no longer had room for.

A 10" tread is miserly (and another clue your archy knew he was out of run or pushing it), an 11" would be a minimum. The 14"ers at our new mall are perfect:

If the stair builder doesn't prevail on this one, I'll donate a hundred bucks to your favorite charity.

Joseph, you know nothing about construction. If you need to deviate from the plans you need to seek approval.

"Our plans have specific stair specs and call for 7 - 7/16" for all 3 staircases. The wrinkle is that we increased the basement wall height after our plans were finalized, which has changed a few things down there (of course the framers knew this though before they ever started). Until I hear different I'm chalking this up to yet another miscommunication with that basement height and their attempt to improvise. They've been told to fix it and I expect that they will. The other two staircases should be built according to the plan though. Hopefully they get those right on their first attempt."

dbrad:

How can an architect, sitting in his air conditioned office in his comfy chair, possibly specify a riser to a sixteenth of an inch? Wood shrinks. Plans deviate, as you have admitted. The rise could be one dimension one day and a different dimension weeks later when the stairs are built. We're building houses here, not a space telescope. If there has been miscommunication, it is that you have not been told this.

"Joseph, you know nothing about construction."

Yeah, that would explain why I'm a licensed contractor in two states, have had a contract for a construction column in an online magazine renewed for four consecutive years, and my 4.63 (out of a possible 5) customer satisfaction rating.

strategery, let Swami Joe peer into the future, please. I see the stair builder explaining his deviations to the architect and homeowner. I see the architect stroking his beard and saying "Hmm..you know, I kinda like these winders..."

Joe...it's not like that. We have no intention of trying to "prevail" over our framers. They are a great crew that we respect. There will be no confrontation. We just decided to hire someone that specializes in stairways to redo them. No door at the bottom, btw.

You may think a 10" tread is miserly but when I was trying to figure this all out I came across a thread by jds, in which he stated that his personal favorite was 7 1/2 to 10. He was renovator8 in this thread. I always respected his opinion...

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2348332/stair-rise-run-question

For what it's worth Joe. I also respect you and I've seen your work on these boards.

"Tread" is commonly shown and spoken as run+nosing, where 10+1=11" is a nice size. The rest of the time it is just the run. My understanding is "Tread depth" means run in IRC.

In my opinion 10" for run+nosing is a bit small.

"No, they have to build to code. When it comes to stairs, approved drawings are more like suggestions."

Well, they should be accurate, but I really do not see many architect drawn plans that are. Case in point, ILoveRed's plan is only accurate on the 2nd floor plan. Appearantly, you are allowed to loose a tread for each lower level you draw.

It also bugs me that they tend to spec stairs at code minimums. I have never drawn plans with less than a 10.5 inch tread run, 10.75 or 11 when convenient. I am also almost always able to stay under a 7" rise because I simply figure out how much room is necessary before I draw the rest of the house.

If I were actually involved with this plan as a GC, I would have made sure the plan was corrected to a max 7" rise, and min 10.5 run before it was finalized. If I was not involved until after the plans were approved, I would have drawn out a few alternatives before construction started to explain what can be done at that point to fix the steep stairs, and most of them would have proper winders that feel good, not that 45° corner nonsense.

ILoveRed's plan is drawn as 10" RUN. Yes, tread depth means run in the IRC.

I doubt Martha has a beard to stroke ;)

So, can we get back to reality and find out from the OP what the current situation may be...?

Sorry Virgil..I should have gotten back to the thread. We are meeting the stair guy again tomorrow and looking at everything he is working up. Pretty confident we will hire him.

I will know more tomorrow and I will get back to you.

Ps..those drawings were early plans. Step was added in the later plans into the floor joist (I think that's correct) to make the stairway right.

lots of changes on the plans since those were posted. Martha did a good job.

"Ps..those drawings were early plans." - I figured that. It was just the illustration of the point on how these things can and do get missed because the stair spaces often starts out as place holders, and get left as "more like suggestions"

Do you have any sections of the stairs in your construction drawings? In my locality no building permit is issued without sections of the stairs.