Ours are par38 and we actually like the highlighting effect. We especially love the light on our counters as we frequently entertain family and friends up to about 40-50. We get compliments on our layout and lighting every time. The "hotspots" you pointed out in our kitchen are a nonissue.

RE; Remodel cans.

You will have a hard time finding a 4" remodel can that is "IC" rated. You would have to keep the insulation at least 3" away from the cans. It is worth it to have the electrician go into the attic and use airtight cans rated for contact with insulation, or you will be up there yourself much longer building boxes around the cans before you can put insulation back in.

Fred S: oh joy...the electrician did not seem fazed when I said that I wanted 4 inch cans...adding this to my list of things to discuss....big, big sigh! Thank you for the "heads-up."

You can get 4" cans that are "air tight" for energy loss, AND, IC rated for insulated ceilings. You just can not get a 4" ICAT housing *that excepts standard screw-in bulbs* in the "remodel" variety that installs from below the ceiling.

These might work

http://www.lampsplus.com/products/led-air-tight-4-inch-dedicated-remodel-icat-housing__3c498.html

Those are

Title 24 compliant.

Compatible only with Nora Lighting 4" dedicated diamond and diamond II trims.

Which may be fine if you are in California, but for the rest of the country, it limits bulb options too much. You can only use their specific and limited options that might not be available in 6 months when one goes bad, not to mention cost way more than standard screw in type bulbs. And, I can not even seem to find any actual 4" trims available on Nora's website. There are plenty of LED ONLY lights out there that are flush, and do not even need a can like Halo SMD4-DM. For LED specific lights, the "housing" is largely obsolete except for if you want the "baffle" look with the bulb up higher.

So, I guess I should amend my statement above with "a housing that excepts the standard screw in bulbs." I keep forgetting that is not so obvious in some parts of the country.

Speaking of LED lighting color... because that's a whole other issue, here is one of my favorite discussions on the topic. I still haven't swapped out my 2700s and still don't use them because I dislike the lighting (too harsh, and yes they are on dimmers). That said, my UCLs are terrific.

Our lights are not centered on the edge of the countertop. On the back wall, the center of the left and right cans are at about 33" (but we have 30" countertops). The middle can by the hood is out even farther. On the sink wall, they're centered at about 19".

It's hard to find a shot of our lights.

Curses pal, now I'm seeing hot spots everywhere! Maybe that's why I never use these... :)

How about these for led recessed fixtures that don't use a housing? They provide a clean light with good CRI. Lotus LED lighting. I have suggestions for surface mounted fixtures that are very thin too. I like the gimbals on the lotus LED so that you can use them to target the lights in different directions, They are also ic rated and have no issue with heat loss in your ceiling.

I love lighting and have been looking at lighting where I can tune the color (tunable lighting). Oldbat2be purchased one of the Haiku lights that allows you to pick your color and warmth. There are fixtures from Pure Lighting that can be used in the kitchen. The recessed versions of these lights are ridiculously priced in my opinion but the surface or slot mounted fixtures are great options if you are sensitive to lighting. I find that I crave great lighting in my spaces during the winter more so than the summer.

Good luck!

Well, I missed this conversation. Not that it matters much at this point, but I agree with palimpsest. As much as I respect and most often agree with cpartist on many things, this is not one of them—mostly. If you aren't looking at undercabinet lighting, then yes, the overhead can light position becomes more important and at the edge splits the difference in direction of light if can is all you have. Helpfully, though, is that most of the time flood or frosted light bulbs are used in those positions, so that helps in softening the shadows.

But undercabinet lighting really is the primary task lighting position, and then you want it toward the back of the cabinet against the wall. Preferably like this:

Bright and Modern · More Info

The point being, that is a better position to get light under the hands, where it is needed most, especially if you are doing precision work or cutting. Overhead lighting does a great job of lighting the tops of your hands; under them not so much.

Pointing the undercabinet lighting at and reflecting off the back splash will give an even better angle for the light to get under the hands.

If you don't want so much light on the backsplash or want to see the puck lights, as an aesthetic choice, then LED tape with numerous points of light along the front edge of the cabinet is not a bad choice. The numerous points of light will work as side light filling the shadows similarly.

I disagree with the article, though. Most people I know use their undercabinet lighting extensively, even leaving them on as ambient light. That pretty much eliminates the worry of hot spots. I worry about hotspots on stage or displays. At home not so much, and as long as the light isn't my primary light source.

Happy lighting!

Joe

I guess I'm missing your point Joe as to why you'd want to light the backsplash with under cabinet lighting?

I'm not working towards the back of the cabinet, but in front of the cabinet on the counter, so that is why I need the LED's in front as well as the can's on the edge of the counter. If the lights are towards the back of the counter, won't that just diffuse the light? Diffused light might work for someone young, but as we age, we need MORE light, not less.

And while I do agree with you that under cabinet lighting is the primary task lighting, I find that the combination of both does a better job with my aging eyes than just one or the other.

The issue with the proposed lighting is when you have an island and use pendants. If I use can lights at the edge of the counter, I would have 3 rows of cans plus pendants right in the middle.

That would look rather unattractive and resemble an operating room with 5000k lighting.

I like to prep at the sides of the island so far based on my behavior in the last two weeks. From the photos I've seen so far, only the perimeter is lit with cans.

Joe: no wires have been run yet; I had him work on some other miscellaneous stuff first so I appreciate your input.

oldbat2be: thank you for the photo. If your counters are 30 and the center of the light is 33", wouldn't that be centered on the counter edge?

homepro01: thanks fir the suggestions; I am going to spend some time on those sites before I talk lighting again with the electrician. In my experience, tradespeople like using what they have always used, at least in rural WI!

It seem that I am going to be paying for a long discussion time tomorrow with the electrician.

Having never had under cabinet lighting, I assumed that I would not use them very much...maybe that is a wrong assumption. I have been standing under and in front of the cans in my bathroom and mimicking "prepping." I noticed the shadows under my hands when the can was above my head and shadows in front of me with the cans behind me, but there was no overlapping light from multiple cans.

cpartist, It is a matter of the light reflecting off the backsplash being able to come in at a lower angle than if is it direct from the cabinet level. All about angles.

Diffusing light softens the shadows, not necessarily less light. But even if it lower in intensity, it won't take as much to get more light at a shorter throw (12"+ from under the cabinets) than from a longer throw (4+ feet overhead).

Just depends on the material of the backsplash. My backsplash is white glass, so very reflective. A flat, dark color would obviously reflect less.

This is just an alternate approach, not always the best. It just depends on all the factors and purpose.

But if you focus on undercabinet as the primary task light, it definitely reduces the need for excessive can lights.

Joe

oldbat2be: I love your kitchen..so classic looking and inviting!

cpartist, As an alternative to having the can light directly over the work area, try centering the work area between two lights so that the lighting is more side light than directly overhead. As you point out, more light may be better, more light from more useful angles is best!

Joe

I can make hand shadows from my 4" halogen task lights between the counter edge and the cabinet faces if I want to. The angle of the light throws any back away from the work.. The lights illuminate about 16.5" of the 28" counter surface. The general lights light up the whole surface. The stove top and sink are completely lit. The shadows don't affect precision tasks like cutting at all. As the knife blade reaches the piece to be cut no shadows are in play. Non issue for me.

This xxxx Nora 4" remodel fixture mentioned earlier will work fine. The restriction only applies to the trims you can use. Any led bulb that fits within spec will work. Nora does not make bulbs.

Yeah, it is kind of amazing how much we are willing to adapt to for another benefit.

Joe

The issue with the proposed lighting is when you have an island and use pendants. If I use can lights at the edge of the counter, I would have 3 rows of cans plus pendants right in the middle.

That would look rather unattractive and resemble an operating room with 5000k lighting.

I like to prep at the sides of the island so far based on my behavior in the last two weeks. From the photos I've seen so far, only the perimeter is lit with cans.

I think this is a separate discussion?

I know I'm using a can over my sink on my island and then using 3 pendants over the seating area of the island.

I have cans, UCL and pendant lighting. almost never turn on the cans.

cpartist, As an alternative to having the can light directly over the work area, try centering the work area between two lights so that the lighting is more side light than directly overhead. As you point out, more light may be better, more light from more useful angles is best!

Thanks Joe.

First to address your first comment about the backsplash. Basically on my backsplash it wouldn't work as I'm using a green backsplash tile that won't throw off lots of light. :)

As for your second comment, I appreciate it and I think my kitchen lighting actually combines it to a degree. My prep sink has no light directly above it, but does on either side. My prep sink has the can in the corner and then the pendant overhead.

Hopefully I have enough light and it all works. If not, DH won't be happy when I call back the electrician, after the fact. LOL.

@dan1888 "This xxxx Nora 4" remodel fixture mentioned earlier will work fine. The restriction only applies to the trims you can use. Any led bulb that fits within spec will work. Nora does not make bulbs"

PLEASE,...just don't... the bulb is integrated into the trim for that fixture. That is why there are wires sticking out of them.

My current kitchen is small and all white, but we can use it only with the task lighting.

Actually when the upstairs bathroom was demoed the electrician told us to only use the recessed lighting in the kitchen if we wanted to burn the house down.

My previous kitchen which did have the recessed lighting at approximately the counter edge or just past could not be used without the task lighting. There were a number of factors involved.

Generally though, I overlight all of my bathrooms and kitchens if I can. Any of my bathrooms would be well lit with a single source but each has three. You could do surgery with all the lights on full blast. But they are all switched separately and all on dimmers. Its great for cleaning. My closets are all well lit, too

If you think about it, I know when I was growing up my parents, and probably similarly for many here, had three lights in their kitchen—one over the sink, one over the range, and one in the middle of the kitchen. Yet somehow my parents were always able to cook what they wanted. So, go with what works for you.

Joe

That is very true Joe. LOL. Actually I'm not sure my Mom had one over the range. I think it was just the one in the middle of the room and the one over the sink.

But by the same token back then there were a lot of things we did that are considered dysfunctional nowadays. Should we continue to do it as our parents did just because they managed in dysfunctional kitchens or should we figure out what works best for how we live today?

Well, yeah, that's why I said do what works for you. I mean, lighting is my thing, that's what I do for a living. I study the physics and geometry of light and how all those things affect aesthetically. I work in detail to understand not just what we see with light, but _how_ we see, both the light and what it illuminates. So I think about things and notice things most people likely never will. And they don't need to. :-D

Joe

Well, I've spent 37 years working in a kitchen like "Mom's": light over the sink and a 3-light fixture in the middle! I do not want to mess this up!

The lighting in our first bathroom remodel is not great; DH dealt with the electrician, and we thought electricians must be experts on lighting...learned my lesson! That bathroom lighting will be remedied as much as possible since the back of the bathroom wall is now open due to the kitchen remodel.

http://www.inspiredled.com/products/rigid-led-panels/with-covers/radiant-edge-series/radiant-edge-series-2528

"But undercabinet lighting really is the primary task lighting position, and then you want it toward the back of the cabinet against the wall."

"cpartist, It is a matter of the light reflecting off the backsplash being able to come in at a lower angle than if is it direct from the cabinet level. All about angles." - Light reflects at equal and opposite angles off of a surface. If the light source is against the backsplash, then it does not leave any room to create an angle for the light to bounce off at other than practically parallel, which will only give extra light to the back two inches of countertop.

"As you point out,.. more light from more useful angles is best!"... at the point on the counter where work is done, which would be the green source.

"The point being, that is a better position to get light under the hands, where it is needed most, especially if you are doing precision work or cutting." - This reminds me of someone staring up at a full moon at midnight, and wondering how much light is on the dark side of the moon. Who really cares if a tree makes noise when it falls in the forest when nobody is around? The speed of light is fast enough that when you move your hand to see what is under it, the light will be there before your brain notices it was missing.

And, I never count under cabinet lighting for even as much as 50% of what is needed for intricate tasks because the light angle bounces back off of the countertop and into your eyes way more than a source that is above and slightly behind your head, causing eye strain.

I'm usually prepping on a cutting board, not a reflective counter top. Also, my counter top is fairly well covered with things like food, plates, and bowls, etc.

I'm also not that short. So, even at the wall with the light source, the cabinet is still a shield. YMMV.

[BTW, your drawing is exactly what I was explaining to cpartist about light pointing at the backsplash, which I said would be coming from the front edge of the cabinet vs the wall.]

You actually need light _reflecting_ into your eyes to see. That's how we see.

Draw a head, put the light source above and slightly behind the head and show me how much light is getting to where you are working. The light will need to come, also, from the side to get around you head (which I believe I also said sidelight is good).

Why is that position good for reading? Draw a line from the light source, reflecting off the propped up book, back to your eyes.

Obviously you've never screwed up a cut because you couldn't clearly see what you were cutting. Then this is not a problem for you. For me, it is just another reason (of several) I abhor can lighting. Carry on.

Joe

I was thinking about my old kitchen and the lighting. My kitchen was essentially 5 feet wide, with a ten foot ceiling, behind eight foot pocket doors. The refrigerator was concealed in the dining area of the living room.

The recessed cans were mounted about over the edge of the countertop, a little behind, because that's all the deeper the kitchen was, to get them centered in the space.

There had to be hot spots but they were up high and hidden behind the header for the pocket doors. By the time you got to the cabinet level there was overlapping of beam spread. But the were also high enough and close enough that they really only hit the front half of the counters, not so much the area under the cabinets. Light is a particle and a wave which is why we can see light around corners, so the light didn't stop dead under the cabinets, but there was a lot of shadow. That particular kitchen was impossible to work in in the evening without the undercabinet/underhood lighting, even with the lights almost in the position considered "ideal" in this thread.

"I'm usually prepping on a cutting board, not a reflective counter top."

"You actually need light _reflecting_ into your eyes to see. That's how we see."

Yes, if you can see what color the cutting board is, then you have light reflecting in your eyes...from the cutting board...called glare when it is too bright. The difference being the amount of light. A light source that shines more directly into your eyes is bad. That is why you are told not to look at the sun. If the light is fairly constant around you, reflecting off of all surfaces with about the same intensity, then your pupils will adjust. (That is the main purpose of UC lighting, to even out the light) If you do what is akin to shining a flashlight into a mirror in a dark room, and it reflects straight back into your eyes, then you have a problem. Your eyes only pick up light that is being reflected straight back to them from an object. Trigonometry, Geometry and Physics tells us that the light you see bouncing off the object you are cutting on can not really be coming from behind the object unless the object is translucent. Otherwise, that back lighting only causes silhouettes and diffraction glare around the edges, like an eclipse.

A light source that spreads out, shines down, as well as to the back wall and bounces off is softer and gentler on the eyes. It also means that you are getting the light at your work coming from more directions. The spot lights you show as an example of UC lighting is just as awful a method of lighting as can lights above, but worse because the beam does not hav the distance to spread out and wash all the surrounding surfaces. We seem to be talking about 2 different things. That is why I suggested these. http://www.inspiredled.com/products/rigid-led-panels/with-covers/radiant-edge-series/radiant-edge-series-2528 In my version, you are not trying to "aim" a spotlight in any particular direction. In your photo with the spotlights, you end up with an intense beam no matter which way you point it.

"I'm also not that short" - I design lighting to be used by all ages and heights of people, not just adults. I do not know what you really do for a living, but "I worry about hotspots on stage" is starting to sound more like "adult" films. ;D

Re; palimpsest. In general the real key is to get everything lighted evenly with a little bit more light directly where you are working, and coming from an appropriate angle that is nearest the angle that the light is returning to your eyes. That is, by definition, the light source would be as close to behind your head as possible without your head causing shadows. If you are looking down at the counter, then the light source would be above your head. If you really want perfect lighting, then you would need to wear a headlamp.

Clearly, they can not even get lighting that perfect even in an operating room.

One row of only 3 recessed lights in an isolated area does not work any better than 4 recessed lights in a square in the middle of a room.

Beachum's lights work OK only because there are several, and there is a lot of upper cabinets missing. But, I still see the shadows that are often complained about, and if someone hasn't mentioned the kitchen looking brighter after painting the cabinets,... then they are in denial. It just goes to show that there is always room for improvement.

I personally prefer the recessed to be around the edge of the countertops, as do 99% of the thousands of homeowners I have wired houses for. But, your kitchen is small and without room to get a good rhythm for the lights. You also do not want recessed lights too close to a stainless steel hood, or there will be a glare off of the hood.

I don't know what kind of design you've actually done. I am sure it is worthwhile. I won't attempt to belittle your experience. Maybe you have actual education regarding lighting and not just conjecture or anecdotal experience. I don't know. Don't really care.

I actually like your linked-to fixture. It is similar to my point about LED tape along the front edge of the cabinet and achieves effectively the same thing. Maybe I should have said that sooner and we wouldn't feel the need to have a lighting battle.

I gave up lighting film and TV a long time ago because it was too soul-sucking. What's exciting about creating 100 ft/candles, seamless? Get a better lens for your camera, I say.

Drives me nuts to see an art exhibit and the work is lit in such a way that the frame is casting a shadow on the edge of the painting. So, yes, I notice shadows and other details more than most people. I get paid to.

Of course I disagree about the lights in my example. They are in a better position to light my work surface than can lights overhead. If the spec'd fixture isn't putting most of light on the work area and putting as much light straight out to the side, then you have obviously spec'd the wrong fixture. So, I think your point about glare, while generally correct, is irrelevant and overstated.

I personally think there is nothing worse than can lights for the home, except for dramatic effect. But that's just me.

Joe

The problem with your "behind your head or headlamp" approach is that we depend on shadow to see shapes and details. This is something you learn early in a lighting design education. We aren't reading a two dimensional page in a book, we are interacting with 3D objects, which have form, texture, and depth. As intimately as we are interacting with them, the better we can see these things, the better our results. What is not lit is as important as what is.

Joe

"The problem with your "behind your head or headlamp" approach is that we depend on shadow to see shapes and details." If you tell me that you would tell that to your surgeon when you are laying on an operating table, then we would all know for sure that you just make this stuff up as you go.

We are not talking about artfully lighting a studio here. We are talking about task lighting for a kitchen. What I like about you is all your double talk, extreme contradictions, talking in circles, and backpeddling. First, you do not want shadows even "under your hands" where you can't see them anyway, then you want to treat a piece of meat like a sculpture at the cost of being able to see what you are doing. SMH

There were more than three lights in the ceiling, I can't remember if their were four or five. But it was difficult to light that space in general. I did think about dropped lighting rather than recessed lighting. But they did not have things like Edge Lighting's linear suspension LED at that time.

I mentioned upthread that the most pleasantly lit work environment for general lighting is one where the entire ceiling is evenly lit (or nearly evenly lit) from lighting that is invisible from the standing or seated position on the tops of cabinetry, supplemented by task lights at the work stations (and, in fact further supplemented by some people with lights on their head exactly as you show.) But for general lighting on the counter and seated eye level work surfaces the task lighting (or the head gear) isn't really necessary. It's just a lot of lighting and with higher ceilings and lower cabinetry than most kitchens would allow.

It's something like this and in the one place that has it it works great, and you can't see Any of the ambient sources, which I love. obviously there is sparkle with the task lighting (and glare if the task lighting is misdirected)

I work in a second environment that has similar and I think the uplighting is too anemic to make it work and the task lighting is very important. In my living rooms I put NO overhead lighting, I have switched from the doorways outlets dedicated to portable lamps and Lutron Cord dimmers on the lamps, and sconces. I do the same in bedrooms but I do have an overhead light or two also switched from the door because I think you need it for emergencies. But I never turn it on. The ceiling lights in half of the bedrooms in the house I grew up in had the original working bulbs from 1969 in them when the house was sold in 2014, they had been turned on so infrequently. I personally find overhead lighting in living spaces in the absence of diffuse lighting from lamps extremely unflattering. People have accommodated to it and screen it out but look at pictures of people at night in a lot of social settings with overhead lighting. They look like they are holding flashlights up to their faces.

Fred S, get a grip man. I didn't say no shadows, I said no shadows cast by my hands to hide what I am trying to work with. Really. Go back and read what I wrote. I don't know why you feel the need to argumentum ad absurdum and respond on mischaracterizing what I have said.

I am so sorry if I offended you somewhere along the way and I don't even know where I did. Seriously, I sincerely apologize. I've liked a lot of your contributions. And as my posts here should show, we are not totally at odds. I made the effort to point out where we even brought up the same solutions.

You've obviously thought about this a lot. More than many home designers and electricians. I think you have some of the specifics pretty solid, you just don't understand all of the "whys". It wouldn't take much to take that extra step in education. You're part way there.

Really, sorry,

Joe

I was not offended until "you just don't understand all of the "whys". It wouldn't take much to take that extra step in education. You're part way there." - actually, I am having more of a chuckle.

I do have the education, as well as the whys. I also know the limitations as to the products available and budgets. It just seams that you want to be so far out there into phylosophy land that I fear you will be talking Quantum physics next, which is the only place that you can have light from every direction and shadows too ;D

I have not even discussed exact placement of overhead cans on this thread because this kitchen is hard to get anything "ideal", and the collective opinions of everyone on this thread, including you, is a good starting point. But we don't even know how many ceiling joists would be in the way yet. So, what one might think is the best method, might prove to be impractical, so on to plan B. I even frequently put indirect lights above cabinets to help, but even that would make for lopsided lighting, and still require some light shining down from the ceiling from the right directions.

Well, then I apologize for that, too.

Joe

Rantontoo I've been following your posts because we're remodeling very similar kitchens in split-level houses. We just finished installing our cabinets, took down the wall between kitchen and living, and took out the small peninsula for an island. Wow, we absolutely love it and we both can't get over how much bigger and more efficient the kitchen feels even though it didn't technically grow in size. The house feels sooo much more open! Our design is very similar to yours above, except our island faces opposite direction and is a foot longer, and we didn't do the wall of hutches past your fridge. We find ourselves prepping mostly at the island. You are going to love it!

Mtnmom9: I agree about the space....we knew it would open things up but but we're amazed at how more spacious both rooms feel! Did you do can lights...if so where did you place them in your ceiling?

with everything gone and the space clears...it amazes me how inefficiently the old kitchen was layed out...what a waste of space. Have you got photos to share yet?

Oh cool, are your cabinets in too? Are you happy with the layout? We are waiting on countertop install and still have lots of drywall repairs and flooring yet to do, so not ready to post any photos yet :) We are doing a lot DIY, so pace is slow. I think can lights are out of our budget, but we will hire an electrician to install some pendant lighting over the new island. We're keeping our old lighting otherwise.

You are much farther along in the process than we are!

mtnmom, I found that the cost between pendants or cans are about equal. I say that because the cans cost more to put in but are cheaper to buy and the pendants cost less to put in but cost more to buy.

mtnmom9,

What was your budget for lights? I posted slim led fixtures that start at $40 a unit and are installed like a surface mount fixture so they are cheaper than recessed fixtures with housing to install.

Good luck!

homepro01: I did some google research after I disliked what my electrician planned to install under a stairway landing. We just installed something like that and I asked my fix anything "carpenter" why anyone would install cans if things like this were available. Of course, this is after the can purchases for the kitchen.

Rantootoo,

Up until a year ago, these slim led fixtures really had harsh lighting. About a year ago, the CRI went up to 90 from 80 and thy started offering 3000k units instead of 3500. This was a game changer and you are seeing more and more fixtures in the $50 price point. I like the gimbal like fixtures too because you can adjust them. As the technology gets better, the pricing comes down on the fixtures. The only reason I would install recessed fixtures now is if I were using tunable LED lighting where you can pick your particular lighting color choice for your home. Even the tunable fixtures, have surface mount fixtures. I think recessed lights may be a thing of the past shortly. You can always sell the cans on eBay or if you bought online many will take returns on unopened fixtures.

Good luck!

I will have to research these fixtures you mention. We are more concerned about labor costs for the electrician than the cost of the fixture itself. We live in a very high cost of living area, and hard to find good labor.

While I haven't read much of the technical info in the thread, I'll volunteer what I did in my small kitchen, 13 x 11 roughly, thanks to GW eight years ago. It has good daytime light from three windows. I have two flush mount lights with one pendant over the sink which needs to be fixed, as it's not working at present. I refused to put cans in my vintage home, IMO they're overused and mostly unnecessary. Because of the windows, etc. there are only four upper cabs. I'm happy I spent a little extra for plugmold under them in order to avoid outlets on the limited wall space. Recently I bought undermount dimmable led lights for the cabs alongside the range at the local retailer everyone knows. Best $100 bucks ever, easy and decorative due to said plugmold. HTH

There are ICAT remodel recessed fixtures. You just have to look for them (and maybe not live in CA).