I have seen a lot of interviews on TV of people addicted to heroin and they always say they were immediately addicted. I think I'll believe what comes from the "horse's mouth". Who knows better than an someone addicted to heroin. It is also extremely difficult for anyone to get off of heroin. I think without professional help, the only way out is death...the body just cannot continue to take the abuse.

Actually, opioids are not deadly in-and-of-themselves if taken in the correct dosage. I was given morphine in the hospital while recovering from a painful surgery. There is nothing like that feeling of pure bliss when the drug hits your brain. I was on morphine for 4 days and did not walk out the hospital an addict. However, many people love that feeling (or the emotions that it numbs) so much that once they know it exists their drug seeking behavior kicks in.

There are many people who are on long term methadone maintenance or long term pain management that lead productive lives. Heroin, and Rx opioids are dangerous because of the amount ingested and the life-style that goes along with supporting the habit. Heroin is sometimes mixed with fentanyl which can cause an OD in a person who has a high tolerance for heroin. Also, many addicts mix drugs and it's the cocktail mix that causes lots of ODs.

I know way more that I should about opioid addiction. My DS is 18 months sober. It's been a long and painful road for my family.

Congratulations to your son on his sobriety, Rory. Good for him, and your family.

Rory congratulations to your son and best of luck.

arkansas girl the way one addiction specialist explained it to me (he was specifically talking about prescription opiates but I think it would apply to all) is that opiates feel physically marvelous at first for just about anybody. But most people don't enjoy being on vacation from their life for too long. They get antsy and want to get back to their normal selves and will naturally self limit their opiate use. For some people, getting away from your normal self is the part that IS so seductive and these are people very at risk for opiate addiction. There's a big difference between physical tolerance and the mental part that compels you to seek out the drug again and again.

Heroin is much like morphine except stronger. But much like getting morphine for surgery, which I have had a few times (heck I even had fentanyl once for surgery) one hit of heroin would not, I don't imagine, make you physically dependent on the drug to the extent you would seek it out. But mentally you might be desperate to recapture the bliss if you were inclined that way.

The bipolar probably led to the addiction. Many schizophrenics become addicts too.

Rory, positive thoughts for your son's continued sobriety! He should be very proud.

Yes, that is a huge accomplishment Rory, I hope he continues to do well.

Every time I've seen anyone interviewed that was addicted to heroin, the real problem with getting off of it comes when your body is going through withdrawals which apparently is total HELL. They are just so ill that they cannot stand it and will then just use again and again to keep from being so sick. This would be enough to keep me from ever trying anything like that.

I forgot that CF was bipolar. The article I read said she was in London promoting her biography right before she went into cardiac arrest on the plane back home. I wonder if, in writing her biography, and re-living "those days" triggered her somehow in doing them again? Of course, probably no one knows, but I can see how reading your diary of that time can take you back, so-to-speak.

Many who suffer from mental illness become addicted to drugs because they self-medicate the symptoms of their illness. It's called dual diagnosis in the rehab field, and is not uncommon. Both mental illness and addiction also have a strong genetic component.

Two of our three children suffer from addiction and/or mental illness as do several members of my husband's family. It is a very painful road to travel, and I wish her family peace.

She is like all of us, with flaws and greatness. The flaws overcame in the end but do not define her.

I agree that people with addiction problems have an illness like any other; it seems antiquated to me to see it as a character flaw. Unfortunately, I did not always see it this way and was pretty judgmental when I was younger.

I thought it interesting that the headline I saw, at least, was that she died from sleep apnea. A closer reading suggests they are not sure what role the drugs in her system played.

Addiction is a gut-wrenching problem and I think we are failing our youth by not addressing it better.

I was reading more about this topic and came across a very thought provoking and somewhat outsider view:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201703/the-solution-the-opioid-crisis

Thanks for the article, Mtn. My husband comes from a family with a great deal of alcoholism, so I spend a lot of time thinking about how to address these issues with my children. The one thing I vehemently disagree with in the PT piece is the claim that people "use" alcohol. I am European (mostly Italian.) No one in my family "uses" alcohol. Alcohol is drunk in my family with no expectation of it having a mind altering effect. Of course from time to time one feels a little buzzed- that is an accident and rarely occurs (and I don't deny that the giddy feeling is nice- I chased that feeling twice and got drunk- yuk). We drink for the taste of the beverage, not for the effect, therefore there is no commonality with drugs, which are taken only for their ability to alter the mind.

I would say that more people drink alcoholic beverages for the effects (disinhibition/socialness) than not (including myself). I see no other reason that nonalcoholic beer is only 1.5% of beer sales in Canada, for example. When I was a young sprout I wasn't tossing back those tequila shots for the taste! Same as why I don't drink decaf coffee...what's the point if I'm not getting the drug? Now I like the taste of both coffee and wine, don't get me wrong, but while pregnant I certainly haven't been chasing down nonalcoholic wine because I miss the taste.

I agree with you, robo. When I drank, it was not for the taste. It was to get that little buzz going. It made me less self-conscious, which made me feel empowered. It's a false equivalent to the real thing, of course, but sometimes people use whatever means they can to achieve the desired result. Drinking for the taste of the beverage is a foreign concept to me. I'm not put off by the taste of beer, wine, or other alcoholic beverages, but I have never had a drink because I wanted to taste it. This holds true for pretty much everyone else I have ever known who drank - with the exception of fine wine connoisseurs (and I only know a handful of those folks).

I, myself LOVE the taste of an extra dirty martini, but hate the effects, so I only drink one, but wish I could have a couple more. I actually like a lot of alcoholic drinks for the taste. I'm not crazy about beer, but do crave an ice cold one on a hot day ever so often.

The person that has to be careful with drinking is the one that drinks it for the effect which, IMHO, is most people that drink. I loved the taste of fruity mixed drinks and Bloody Marys etc but I always drank to get a buzz. I liked the feeling of being buzzed and relaxed. So I have chosen to not drink anymore, it's not safe for someone like me to drink. I can, however, just drink one drink and not "fall off the wagon" so I take that to mean that I'm not an alcoholic although I used to drink every single day for many many years. Alcohol is very deadly drug also! So many people use it daily and don't even acknowledge they have a problem.

LOL ollie! I am with you on not caring for beer, but I love the "idea" of a cold, refreshing one on a hot day- but I really, really don't like the taste- unless it's a raspberry lambic or a Berlineweisser (beer with raspberry syrup!)

I am with Rita and olliesmom, I love the taste of a chilled white wine by the pool or a Pinot noire by a fire on a winter's night but detest even a light buzz so only occasionally one for me...

I love the taste of a good glass of wine. And beer. And some cocktails. But I never drink for the buzz-- I don't much like that feeling. I rarely have too much to drink, but when I have, it is because I was drinking a really nice wine and just enjoying the taste. I would equate it to other people overindulging in a rich dessert because they liked what they were eating. I conceptually understand that many people drink just for the buzz, whether or not they like what they are tasting, but that is not my own experience with drinking.

With respect to Rita, your family must be the only group on the planet that considers alcoholic beverages to be worthwhile simply for the taste, and also the only group that receives no mind altering effects from the active chemical-alcohol-which physically causes biochemical changes in the brain of any user. However c'est la vie as they say while quaffing tasty wine in France :)

As I've gotten older unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, I am finding I just can't handle the residual affects of alcohol in my system. Well, at least I know I can't handle wine because that's the only alcoholic beverage I've used in years. Even one glass causes sleep interruption and two glasses ramps that up plus leaves me feeling ill the next day. I've idly wondered about the coming marijuana revolution in which one can indulge for non medicinal purposes because I do enjoy the feeling of relaxation/letting go that alcohol provided.

As for addiction, like Mtn I have come to understand, viscerally after painful years dealing with it in my immediate family (siblings), that it certainly is a disease. The tragedy IMO is that it's a disease that directly and deeply affects how one interacts with the world via negatively impacting one's brain. Thus the tragic outcomes for addicts/alcoholics and those in their world.

I think people drink wine for the taste alone and not with the purpose of getting drunk (not a lot of people though) . When I eat a particular mix of flavors such as a good steak with gorgonzola cheese, I prefer to drink it with a heavy red wine. I call it a "party in my mouth" (it's a family joke at this point-everyone asks if I am having a party in my mouth when I eat and drink wine).

I often drink 1-2 drinks socially merely for the taste at a slow pace and don't feel any effects. So not everyone drinks to feel the effects of alcohol-I actually hate the feeling and slow down my sips the minute I feel any tingles.

With respect to Rita, your family must be the only group on the planet that considers alcoholic beverages to be worthwhile simply for the taste

Runningplace, it is interesting that you profess to have a handle on all people on the planet with respect to their relationship with alcohol. I am sorry that you have had painful issues in your family with alcohol/substance abuse. We are all influenced by our own experiences. But yes, there are people who enjoy the taste of alcohol and do not drink it for the high. Several other posters on this thread, as a matter of fact. Or are we all deluding ourselves in your mind?

In all fairness, Rita vehemently disagreed with the idea that people "use' alcohol, and basically said that isn't true. Now, perhaps she was speaking from her own experience, but it came across as a bit more blanket like that. (I thought that's what runningplace was reacting to.) Many of us know otherwise, so Rita's statement seemed to be her personal invalidation of the experience of others.

Just sayin'. ;-)

Running in place I know more people who NEED to smoke pot every day than I know who need a drink every night. If alcohol had an effect like you have expressed for you than you may want to avoid picking up a joint... It might not be physically addictive but many become very emotionally dependent upon it.

I believe all addictions, including eating disorders, gambling and now phone addictions are a combination of genes, disposition, bad luck, ennui and product and thus what works for not becoming an addict for one person does not always work for another. I have addicts in my family but am not one partly because watching two siblings struggle with the consequences of their addictions put the fear of over use into my head and I was lucky for that. My siblings were not so lucky...

I believe that Rita was speaking of her family, not "everyone". I think her statements are very typical of italians. They love the taste of good wine and drink it with a meal like we would tea or water.

That said, I am another who doesn't drink for the effects. Really, I don't drink at all now, other than an occasional "mocktail" - because I LIKE THE TASTE of some of the sweet, fruity drinks. I actually don't like the taste of most alcohol, and I'm not going to use it for relaxation or the "buzz". There are other ways to relax, and I think some people using alcohol for those particular reasons, can end up having problems. I'm not saying everyone, but some. Lastly, having watched a relative destroy his life with alcohol, it just has no appeal for me.

You're probably right, Tina, as to Rita's intent. It's just that I do know more people than I can count who "use" alcohol instead of drinking to "taste" it. They are functional, insofar as they can make it through the daily routine and do what's needed to earn a paycheck, but their social lives revolve around drinking. Every evening after work, they start out at happy hour that runs on until sometimes they're drinking into the late hours of the night. Their social circle is comprised of others who do the exact same thing, day in and day out. Getting together with that social circle to do anything other than drink, swap stories, commiserate, maybe shoot a little pool, is unthinkable. There's a dependence there that may or may not be an actual physical addiction. It's certainly a psychological addiction. For those people, that "partying" lifestyle is the biggest part of their world and their jobs are a means to an end. In my estimation, that is absolutely "using" alcohol in every sense of the word.

I do know that we each bring our own experiences to this topic. It's a matter that has had significant impact on so many lives, including my own.

I'll admit I like the taste (food and wine/beer pairings especially) and the relaxation/buzz. Unfortunately, the alcohol adds calories to the meal I don't need, so I have cut way back.

I never developed a taste for alcohol, tobacco or caffeine. I have never been a smoker, and I only have caffeine and alcohol very rarely and in a disguised form if you will (a cappuccino after dinner maybe, to avoid dessert, or a fruity sangria or girly drink... usually only one and I ask them to half the alcohol). I deserve no credit for this (it doesn't require any willpower, for example) just as I believe addicted people deserve no blame.

In my experience, though, none of these tastes are innately preferable (unlike, for example, sugar). E.g., I know of no one who liked their first espresso, scotch, or cigarette. I find that interesting only because to me, you need to work at liking these things, and thus you must have a motivation to do so. The motivation is often status or belonging and then seems to morph, for some, into mood alteration.

I know true oenophiles who are deadly serious about their wine, and who would never want a high to interrupt their experience of the wine, if you will. I know plenty of people who have one drink with a meal, and that is it. But the vast majority of people who drink do so to "relax" or get high. You only have to look at when much alcohol consumption occurs to see that it is most often used for mood alteration (after work, at social occasions, "having a bad day", etc). I think we can all agree that if alcohol had zero effect, consumption would plummet; ergo people choose it for that effect.

I think my link to the Psychology Today sparked this, as a poster took umbrage with the author's attempt to point out that we are all "users" of drugs. I take his point and agree that a large portion of the population uses substances to alter their mood, such as the very high % of people who "need" a cup of coffee to start their day. What they need is caffeine, which is a drug.

I think the article made some interesting points and they are a bit different than the current conventional wisdom, so I am going to summarize some of his points below. I am not here to defend each and every point, but I do think they are very interesting and thought-provoking.

EXCERPT FROM https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201703/the-solution-the-opioid-crisis

“The war on drugs has failed: doctors should lead calls for drug policy reform.” The BMJ’s report does not contain the words “brain,” “disease,” or “addiction.” Instead, it asserts: “…a thorough review of the international evidence concluded that governments should decriminalize minor drug offenses, strengthen health and social sector approaches, move cautiously towards regulated drug markets where possible.”

1. Loudly advertise the dangers of drug-mixing, as opposed to saying things that are untrue and undermine credibility (ie that one dose of heroin will addict you, and that you could die from it … apparently it is actually highly unlikely to die from pure heroin)

2. Call for legal regulation of heroin and other currently illegal drugs to protect users from unwittingly consuming the haphazard, fraudulent and dangerous combinations often sold on the street..

3. Make clear that addiction is NOT a disease and therefore, that it is escapable and not a lifelong identity. (hmm...this is actually a more hopeful view than calling it a disease). Instead, point out, it is a phenomenon driven by psychological and social factors, and therefore inseparable from the realities of people’s daily lives. Publicly tell politicians that if they really care about reducing addiction, taking meaningful steps to address inequality and absence of opportunity and to rebuild meaningful community would be the single best thing they could do.(NOW this is controversial, but interesting and probably at least partly true. There is not a causal relationship between income and addiction, but there is a coincidence because many stressors than are prevalent in low income households are correlated to addiction)

4. Declare that we must abandon the futile goal of a drug-free society, which decades of efforts and billions of dollars have been unable to accomplish. Instead, recognize that we are all drug users—from caffeine and alcohol to prescribed medications to commonplace Adderall use by students. Affirm that drugs are a normal part of human experience, that they provide benefits, and that they are even enjoyed—despite their potential dangers. This is how we approach experiences and involvements—from driving to love and sex—that can have dangerous or overwhelming effects. It’s how alcohol is used throughout Southern Europe—indeed, this is how the large majority of Americans who drink think about alcohol.

Radical as this is to American ears, we must normalize and rationalize the reality of our drug use—as opposed to encouraging uncontrolled and chaotic use of drugs while simultaneously vilifying and demonizing them.

Also, many of you may have seen the studies out from various insurance companies, stating that states with legalized marijuana have had an increase in car accidents, compared to the neighboring states without legalized marijuana. Sometimes, I just want to shake my head, well "DUH!" What did you think would happen??

I like the taste of cocktails and do not drink for the effect. Margaritas with chips and salsa, cold beer with Chinese food, a Moscow mule with my cheese and crackers. I equate them with dessert - good taste and empty calories. And usually just have one and indulge once or twice per week.

Olliesmom, I think a lot of people who are pro-weed argue that it is better than alcohol, which may very well be true. But if it were a "new" thing and we were deciding to legalize alcohol today, would we? The last thing this country needs is more ways to make people "out of it". OTOH, does it make sense to put all these people in jail? Is that a good use of resources?

Mtn, I agree, alcohol is an existing problem, but, we sure didn't need to add marijuana on top of the already bad alcohol problem we have. Plus, on top of the mind-altering effects from marijuana, wouldn't it cause more cancer too? Why do we need more of that?

FWIW, my husband is from California, total surfer-dude back in the day. He thinks marijuana isn't as bad as alcohol, but it makes unmotivated people, even MORE unmotivated and lazy. Like we need that.

ETA: I personally wouldn't have a problem with people doing it recreationally, but, most people, especially in our society now, do not have the self-control. Plus, it STINKS!

Please allow me to clarify my point from yesterday. I said, "The one thing I vehemently disagree with in the PT piece is the claim that people "use" alcohol. " I should have said, of course there are people who "use" alcohol for the high. However, alcohol can be drunk without getting high, unlike recreational drugs whose only purpose is mind altering.

In my life and for my close extended family (parents, grands, aunts, cousins,) we drink wine and spirits for the taste. If someone wants to argue that ingesting alcohol has will affect physical chemistry no matter what, fine. I'll accept that point to the extent that a surgeon on call will not consume alcohol at a meal- just in case it affects her abilities. However, were I to take a recreational drug, I would take that drug with the intention of experiencing a high- there is no other reason. I never drink alcohol with the intent of experiencing a high of any sort. So insofar as people drink alcohol in order to cope with their lives, yes, there is an equivalence with recreational drugs. But for me, for whom a glass of wine with a meal or a liqueur after one serve to delight, balance or even challenge the palate, there is no equivalence. I do not require any help with disinhibition. I can dance and be emotionally open at a party without needing chemical help. The way a glass of Bordeaux complements steak-au-poivre or a Sauternes enlivens dessert, on the other hand, is unique for me.

As for the rest of the PT article, the challenges ahead with drug use are immense. I generally believe in decriminalizing the use of most drugs, but I am pretty sure that is not a panacea.

ETA I do not mean to say that I find it problematic that people may choose to use alcohol to "relax and unwind." So long as people are content and not becoming dependent, I suppose that is alright.

Thanks IdaClaire ;). And of course people are different, but I'm still not quite convinced that drinking alcoholic beverages just for the taste is all that common, I think most people enjoy the taste AND the calming/relaxing effect-and nothing wrong with that.

I posted a reply clarifying my point from yesterday- and my reply seems to be gone. It posted for a while, then I went back to edit a typo- added the s to Sauternes- and now it's gone.

ETA the post is back.

Maybe there should be a productivity test for those buying legal marijuana.

I'm not believing the people that claim they can drink and not get drunk....how is that supposed to work? I can drink one beer and feel the buzz or one glass of wine and feel a buzz so tell me, are you all some super humans that can consume alcohol and not have the effects or maybe you are in denial? I just don't get that!

My flip responses that I must be super-human then, because nobody who knows me has ever seen me so much as tipsy. My serious response is that I am 5'9" tall and weigh 145 pounds. I sip a glass of wine throughout a meal that last minimally 45 minutes. Afterwards, I may have a small glass of dessert wine or a liqueur with coffee and dessert- again sipped over half an hour perhaps. Meals consumed with wine for me are multi course- and usually on the rich side. I do not have a glass of wine with a bagged Caesar salad or reheated leftovers eaten in a rush. I do not drink quickly.

In all seriousness, one of the great things about forums like these is the ability to meet people we might not in real life and learn from their experiences. So you clearly do not personally know people like me. Expressing your disbelief and leveling an accusation of denial at what several members of this forum have stated is distasteful to me.

I'm not believing the people that claim they can drink and not get drunk....how is that supposed to work? I can drink one beer and feel the buzz or one glass of wine and feel a buzz so tell me, are you all some super humans that can consume alcohol and not have the effects or maybe you are in denial? I just don't get that!

If a glass or two of wine made me drunk I'd have to stop drinking. I understand some people have little to no tolerance, but put away the broad brush.

My view of Marijuana is that I have witnessed great effects on bipolar people. I wish my mom would have tried it when she was alive. It seems to level people out when they get in that hyped non- logical , negative ,mentally abusive zone. From what I have seen bipolar people get normal and more productive after a few puffs. It's probably all down to the "how much" though.

Even though Carrie was open about her addiction and mental problems I'm sure that didn't make it much easier to deal with for her family. Carrie was always "up" and happy seeming when dealing with the public but in reality as with mental illness she most likely had horrible lows. This is very hard on a family because there is no reasoning when a low hits.

CindyMac, I didn't say "drunk" I said buzz. I don't think one or two drinks will make a person very drunk but if you aren't getting some sort of buzz...I don't know how that's possible unless you sip a glass of wine for an hour.

Arkansas girl, I don't know your definition of "buzzed". Most of the time my one drink with dinner has no discernible effect.

Now, if I get a strong pour or don't eat or if I am tired, I might feel effects from one drink. But 90% of the time, one drink over the course of a dinner does not make me "buzzed".

Everyone has different sensitivities. Eating a fast food meal makes me feel 10x worse than drinking one margarita. There is no need to be judgmental because your personal experience is different.

Actually, Arkansas, "drunk" is exactly what you said: I'm not believing the people that claim they can drink and not get drunk....how is that supposed to work?

My experience has been like that of d_gw. A drink with dinner might make me feel absolutely nothing - not even that slight flush that is the first telltale sign (for me) that I'm consuming alcohol. On other evenings, if I'm tired or overwrought in any way, one drink could have a completely different effect. Our bodies react differently to alcohol depending upon any number of factors.

I have also noticed that some people have very different reactions to caffeine. Our English friends, for instance, made a habit of having one last cup of tea before bedtime every night - and this, often close to midnight. I would've been awake, bouncing off the walls all night long if I did that. (And it happened on more than one occasion, when I was staying with them and didn't want to turn down their offer of a "cuppa" because it was such a part of their normal routine.) It seemed to have absolutely no affect on their sleep whatsoever.

Arkansasgirl-if you only take sips and eat food and are not underweight, it is entirely possible to drink one drink over an hour and not feel any effects. However, there is a genetic/medication /sex linked component to this that may play a role in you feeling alcohol quickly as the breakdown of alcohol may be at a lower rate in your body.

The stomach begins to break down alcohol immediately. This next product travels to the liver where the final step takes place. This is where people get drunk as the intermediate breakdown product begins to build up as the liver does its job at a rate of one drink per hour. The food in your stomach will slow the absorption of this intermediate product thus decreasing the amount that reaches your brain.

And as often happens,while following this conversation online I read a very thought provoking article that touches on some of what we're discussing here as well, with an added twist of some parenting aspects to it as well.

Arkansas, I can honestly say that a glass of wine does take me an hour or longer to generally enjoy. And even without feeling effects from a slowly sipped drink I never have enjoyed one when I am going to drive afterwards because cold meds, PMS, an empty stomach all can effect how a drink can or can not affect one.

I like the taste of alcoholic drinks and too much. I think I have put on weight because I like the sweeter stuff. I don't have the stamina to overindulge that often, but for me alcohol is a treat like any other sweet and I have a hard time drinking just one glass. But two or three is about all I can make it through. But that's a lot of calories and I sadly can't consume that much on a regular basis anymore without gaining even more weight. However, I have more willpower to resist just plain sweets without the added alcoholic buzz. But still not enough . . . sugar can be used like a drug too. I crave both when stressed. Luckily I just don't want to drink all day long and when I come home from work, not enough time to get drunk before bed, too many chores!