I tried to get some close ups with mode macro but the Auto focus was going crazy figuring out the sprays of needles. Then there was the breeze.

Anyways, There were a few 2 needle bundles only on the two underdeveloped lower branches.

I'm going with P. jefferyi because the bark isn't right for P .ponerosa. and I can't find any other 3 needle pine, zone 4 hardy, that comes close. :-)

ummm...that isn't 'bark', per se. THIS is bark:

Ontario here is a shot of a few of us sniffing bark. That's me on the left:

That's a tree trunk! Pine I think.

"Bark:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Bark is the outermost layers of stems and roots of woody plants. Plants with bark include trees, woody vines, and shrubs. Bark refers to all the tissues outside of the vascular cambium and is a nontechnical term. It overlays the wood and consists of the inner bark and the outer bark."

My bark was compared to similar sized branches.

But my bark is worse than my bite. :-)

Ha ha ha! The point is that young bark doesn't look like much. Now young bites, on the other hand...

'The point is that young bark doesn't look like much.'

Although between species, it is characteristically similar. Don't you agree? :-)

Yeah I guess but I wouldn't want that to be the way I was IDing 2 year old plants! And in thinking about it, I did mis-speak about not being able to tell the difference between jeffries and ponderosas without seeing the seed cones; the time that we were having a hard time with this was in the mountains in a pine forest where both species exist but the lowest branches were 20' off the ground. The bark, in that case, was the best indication, because it differs significantly, but it was when we were able to pick up cones around the tree that it was a snap to determine which was which. Gentle jeffrey, prickly ponderosa.

'Gentle jeffrey, prickly ponderosa.'

Like some of the discussions here. lol

Thanks!

The coneheads were group-kissing one of their most holy conifers. The ritual master counted 3.....2.....1.....KISS !!!

Tree kissing because tree hugging is so yesterday...

You can always tell a tree society member.

Their nose is a little scuffed and there's traces of sap. 8<) )

I don't know...doesn't it look like Sara is eating the bark? I've eaten maple bark chocolate, but pine? Then again, there was Euell Gibbons ...

tj

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!

Either that or she has to get that close to see it.

No, my distance vision is 20-20. It's that near. vision where everything is blurry! Vanilla? Pineapple? Pina. Colada!

Still not a Red Pine. :-)

3 needle bundles are longer than the other Reds in the windbreak but only by about an inch. Bark is decidedly different. Healthy little thing and growing good.

Last pic looks pretty close to Jeffrey pine, IMO. Mine looked very good for some yrs, then died from severe needlecast.

Just thought I update with a new picture. Put on decent growth this season. No cones yet! :-))

Another clue:

Winter bud on the left is Pinus resinosa and the one on the right is the mystery pine.

Prb'ly is red pine as the needles look a little too slender for Ponderosa.

Beng,

That has never been a question, it is NOT red pine. The picture above clearly shows two completely different winter buds. There are other major differences that rule out red pine also.

Have you ruled out Pitch Pine (rigida)?

tj

Nope. Too many 3 needle pines to try researching everything. And I only looked at z3 hardy pines and their native growing locations.

My tree doesn't match the Forestry description of Ponderosa or Jeffreyi really but then juvenile seedlings can fool you in so many ways.

Being P. ponderosa is considered 'native' in North Dakota (parts of it) that's maybe why they were distributing them but then I don't know all the politics behind it. It was a gift.

I'm thinking it's easier just to wait for cones. :^)

I think v. scopulorum,

The ponderosas from ND typically are the two-needle variety -- I've got one (on right, loblolly on left). 3-needlers are the more western ponderosas.

According to many sources on the web, they can have either 2 or 3 needle bundles and usually have a mix.

PinusPonderosa-scopulorum

Don't know if this will help but I have an updated picture of the terminal leader and buds from this am. I just realized I didn't have any closeups of this so went out today. There is a cage around the tree and everything is froze, so did the best I could. Ignore the chicken wire and hardware cloth. :-)

And the trunk. Appears smooth and gray color.

There is a parallel discussion that started in the [Far North[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/unique-evergreen-dsvw-vd~5067809?n=269) forum but I've cross posted here to keep everything up to date.

I think wayne hit the nail on the head with scopulorum. Every photo i can find, resembles that. From the 'tuft like' branch ends to needle bundles of 2 or 3, mine matches closer than any other tree I've found.

After all, there's only so many species that will grow up here. :-)

Just an update:

This pine came through a rather tough winter, but we did have heavy snow and the tree was at least partially buried much of the worst part of winter. No sign of cones this time around.

12-9-2020

Still no cones. Tree is over 4ft. tall with the longest winter buds I've seen on a pine. Maybe next year?

Very long, silvery buds look like my Jeffrey pine from yrs ago. Died from rampant needlecast tho.

That's too bad ben. How old was it when it died?

Jeffrey pine grows naturally from 5000 to almost 10,000 ft. which translates into shorter growing seasons with cool nights and low humidity.

Otoh: P. ponderosa scopulorum grow from sea level to 3500+ ft. And likes hotter drier conditions than Jeffrey pines. So you might have better luck with one of those, although out east is probably not ideal conditions for these types of trees to start with.

Needle cast can come from poor air circulation around the tree (crowded) or very high humidity during long season summer months.

BTW: I'm over 1,300 ft. elevation at my place. But with shorter seasons to start with, and sandy soil, I'm sure this tree will be here longer than I will. Hopefully. :-)

Could perfectly well grow multiples of 4' tall before coning. Many planted ponderosa pines in my comparatively cool and damp area appear to be examples of scopulorum. Don't recall seeing needle cast on this version but it has swept through other ponderosa pines here in later years, with Jeffrey pine standing out for not getting it. But I have not done a comprehensive survey involving recording of data in an organized manner. And maybe the needle cast is still working its way through the local presence of these trees. With cultivated specimens being here and there, often as single individuals rather than more or less contiguous stands of many trees enabling the pathogen to move extra easily from one to another, build up a large presence of its own.

The only needle cast I've noticed around here was a windbreak that consisted entirely of Picea abies and were planted too close together. It was only the few that had outgrown their given location, with overlapping branches, that exhibited the disease.

Of course, the best place to see needle cast are Blue spruce (picea pungens). There are very few healthy looking ones I've run across, even up here in the 'North Country'.

Bill, it got ~6 yrs old & 12 ft high (grew fast) before the needlecast started on the bottom branches & killed the whole tree in just a couple yrs. I do have a Ponderosa scopulorum as seen above but it has completely lost its bottom half to needlecast, tho lasting longer than Jeffrey.

ben,

Out in the wide open like yours, you'd think the breeze would be good. But if it's anything like N. Illinois in July, when we were there, the heat and humidity is simply oppressive, starting at sun up. I imagine you also have a red clay or at least a heavy soil?

In my county, we may get several summer days of high RH, but hot humid nights are not the norm although they do happen from time to time.

If I had known at the time when it was given to me, what kind of tree it was, I may not have accepted it. Now it's jammed between some Red pines that were closely spaced to begin with.

If it does well (I can't imagine it getting to 100'), I can make more room for it. Too some of the Red pines may fail so I'll wait a while before doing anything that can't be undone. :-)

Still no cones.

But considering these trees may start producing cones after 7 years and that's not a given, I may still have to wait a few years for the final identification.

I can say, even under (near) drought conditions, the tree put on 2 to 3 times new growth of either the Red pines or Pinus strobus.

Hmm. That really doesn't look like my long-gone Jeffrey pine (its needles definitely were longer & had a blue-green tint & also weren't held so stiffly upright), but does look like Ponderosa. From what I've read, the needlecast problem decreases as one goes north.

The daily 31% rh we've been getting all summer should help also.

Whatever it is, it is looking mighty fine. Keep the updates coming.

tj

That's good to know. We've hardly got an inch of rain all summer. And hotter than normal.

I've never watered that grove of pines, since planting. The native pines take dryness pretty well also. Last season wasn't a whole lot better than this one.

Now that the tree has some size to it, any chance we can see a pic of the bark in the middle of the trunk, a few branch whorls down, Bill? The Ponderosa I have grown usually have a distinctive smooth transitional bark area with a grayish color before the bark turns rough with age and trunk thickness.

Sure, no problem.

This is the base of the tree. The only area showing coarse bark.

The next whorl up is smooth with a dense population of needles.

Same for the one above that.

Needle bundles on the trunk are mostly in 3's.

Much of the new growth have a mix of 2 needle or 3 needle bundles with a high percentage of 2's.

Yeah, looks like Ponderosa to me based on the trunk.

Almost certainly P. ponderosa var scopulorum -- the best subspecies for your area.

Update: 9-07-2022

I got one female cone this season but with nothing around to pollinize it, it never developed and now has disappeared.

Officially 7-1/2' tall. It didn't grow as much this season as it did last season, even though last season was full on drought, and this season, we had a few inches of rain.

Pinus ponderosa var. scopulorum:

Classic look of a var scopulorum. I can see large terminal buds.

Yes, some of the winter buds are 1-1/2" long already compared to the Red pines 1/2" long winter buds.

I think this ponderosa will outgrow the Red pines by a fair percentage, if the way it's going stays the same.