I couldn't make the SZ sizes work in my kitchen, so bought the Miele all fridge and all freezer, as well as 24" prep drawers (Marvel). I have been very happy with the Miele. These are the ones that are made at the same factory as Thermador, which was reported Miele sold to BSH. Miele have different finishes and features and do their own electronics, so they're not the same except for the box. They're truly excellent, though there are potentially a few more quirks over time than SubZero. These are the "columns" which is how you achieve side by side. The sides are separate pieces (since top quality have separate compressors and evaporators in a single unit, having two units just gives you more flexibility).

I LOVE the internal organization--or I should say lack thereof. I really dislike fridges with a lot of fittings that are for some idealized family's needs which have nothing to do with most actual families. There are shelves. There's a flat pack "deli" drawer. There are two big open drawers you can set to the correct temperature and humidity for the type of food (and you can choose two different ones for the same drawer). At first I wasn't so sure about the programmed drawers (meat, fish, veg, fruit and one other), but they work, and I can give up that much control. There's a full length box on the door and door bins that come out for cleaning without removing the frames. All shelves and door bins are height adjustable like bookcase shelves, each level about half an inch apart. VERY customizable. The shelves remove and readjust with barely more than a touch. The door bin frames and butter box have to be taken out to re order, for safety's sake, but I keep the box lower, since the top corner away from the hinge is actually very cold rather than the warmest part of the fridge as was traditionally the case with the old technology. I use the top of it as a little shelf, too.

The interior of the freezer is much the same, though the shelves are wire instead of glass, and the drawers and bins are wire instead of polycarbonate. The icemaker drawer (polycarbonate), with small plastic drawers on either side takes the place of the deli drawer and one shelf (you can use the top as a shelf. The ice bin in the icemaker drawer has the pin that makes the ice drop, but I put the ice in the two sides of the drawer next to the bin to accumulate more ice rather than using it for storage.

There are air filters in the drawers which are easy to remove and rinse now and then. The water filter for the ice in the freezer is expensive, needs to be replaced twice a year (you can set it to forgo the filter if have your own drinking water filter on the intake line. Using tap water might be okay, but filtered probably keeps the ice maker working better over time)). On mine, you have to manually reset the filter alarm, which is a bit of a pain, but they might have fixed that. The caps and clips for the drawers aren't as solid as they could be, and can be pulled off if you tug too hard. That is the biggest con. Next biggest is that if you use the supercool setting on the freezer to it's max you can freeze the fan and have to defrost the freezer. The lighting is superb! The function is excellent. The flexibility and utility are fabulous.

I know less about the Fridge/freezers, but they're also good. We have members who have them.

Something I loved about old SubZeros is the fruit drawer that sits under a shelf and has a wire bottom. I don't think they make that anymore, or maybe it's still on the over/under built-in. That's the only specialized feature in a fridge that I really liked and wanted, but obviously it wasn't universally adored. It wasn't in the flush integrated columns last I checked.

In my opinion, SubZero and Miele are equally good for quality and usage, and define the top tier. Liebherr has a lot of devotion, and is about a half step down. Thermador is noticeably a step down, but still excellent quality, also flush integrated, and friendlier choice for the budget.

Thank you. It's good to hear that people actually do have good luck with their Miele fridges. I always suspected that our friends experience must have been an outlier (water filter always complaining, despite the official dummy module being installed; temperature fluctuating wildly; user interface going crazy; ...). I am also glad to hear that you like the organization. I don't think it would work well for out family. But it always is great to have options. And every household is different.

I didn't care for my monogram side by side. It was a full depth free standing version and it loved to freeze the vegetable drawer. Yeah, frozen lettuce is not so good..... it shattered Perrier bottles on the quick chill setting, melted things in the freezer and then decided to do 10k worth of damage that GE ended up paying for (manufacturing defect). I am going for a separate fridge and freezer this time around and it won't be monogram. I was given a sub zero all fridge that's about 7 years old and it's running beautifully in my spare room awaiting my remodel. Huge difference between the sub and the LG currently installed. The LG water lines are literally disintegrating, which is really obnoxious. Fix is cheap though, but the water damage isn't (if I weren't tearing everything out I'd be mad).

I am back. We may have changed our reno plans. I am now looking for a free standing regular sized (30 inch) range - help! I might be able to still get a miele cso wall oven if it can be retrofitted into our existing cabinetry....

do wolf freestanding electric ranges have the same enamel issues? Is the miele any good? Is the kenmore by electrolux good? or the samsung double oven? sorry if people answered this before! We keep changing our minds re how much we want to undertake!

I think any of the mid range and up brands produce good 30" ranges. What you choose will be determined by the range of features that fit your cooking style. Induction or gas? 1 oven or 2, etc.

You've swung pretty heavily from 1 end of the spectrum to another in terms of your Reno (in cost and scope). A 30" range signals a lower-end kitchen, no matter if it has a Wolf or a Frigidaire range. Double ovens, separate cooktop (larger the better) signal more expensive (and usually larger) kitchens. Take a look at your specific house and it's real estate market (I.e. what everyone else in the neighborhood has) and that will tell you whether to pour more money in or just update what you have. Also, if you're staying there for 20 years, buy whatever you want because it's going to need redoing in 20 years.

That being said, the upper end GE Profiles have the same features as a 30" Wolf now, so you won't be getting anything better by spending double the money. But if you experience joy cooking on a Wolf (or any other brand) buy that, because you'll be using it everyday.

I've been very pleased with my Bluestar french door electric wall oven. No bending, I can put in a full size tray. The broiler is great, as is the baking stone.

We wavered re the scope of the reno because our original designer quit her company and we were left scrambling. We are back on for the full reno as we found an awesome new designer. Now I need to decide between the Wolf gas cooktop or maybe two induction cooktops bridged (?) together.

Sorry to drive you all crazy! I have appreciated everyone's comments/advice!

You have to make up your own mind on whether you prefer gas or induction. I personally have a strong preference for gas, but you'll also find plenty of people who are extremely happy to have decided on induction. It's a very personal decision that depends a lot on cooking style.

If possible, find somebody who owns a stove similar to what you are considering and try it out.

Once you decide on the fuel source, I strongly encourage you to get a rangetop instead of cooktop, if picking gas. They are generally much better appliances. On the other hand, induction seems to have standardized on cooktops. So, that's what should pick from.

For gas, I'd seriously look at Bluestar. They make an absolutely amazing open burner gas range(top). But Wolf isn't too bad either, if the brand name recognition is important to you.

Can't say much about induction, but I'm sure you'll have plenty of other people give you recommendations

Cranberry, I have both gas and induction. I use the induction a lot more, but gas has its uses. Maybe both would be a good solution for you?

I've found the broiler in the Bluestar electric wall oven replaces anything that the induction cooktop can't do (e.g. roast veggies over a flame). I don't see any reason to switch back to gas.

What I've found with the Wolf induction 36" is that the large element nicely fits a 5 qt saute pan, and the other four fit a 7 qt pasta cooker (not that I use four at a time, but they are that size :-)

The only times that I've had the cooktop shut off automatically is when I run a damp cloth over the controls. Next time I will get one with knobs. Another setup, that no one makes as far as I know, is having the controls remote (attached to the front of the vent hood or some such).

Rangetop

Knobs in front, no oven, more room for burners

Cooktop

I'm going with the wolf 36" gas rangetop. I currently have a 30" GE electric smooth top that is from 2006 and it's horribly scratched and looks worn and terrible. I don't have any issue with induction except the scratching. My kitchen sits in front of a sliding door that's nearly always open. The ceiling slants upwards to the second story where transom windows are always open to let the heat out. Add 2 70" ceiling fans and there is a strong breeze going through my kitchen that blows anything powdered around. There's no way to keep crumbs, sugar crystals and debris off the glass, which is what scratches it. Consider whether your cooktop will be in a similar situation and if you care whether it gets scratched. The boiling issue I have gotten around by having an instant hot water dispenser from our reverse osmosis system. Also does baby bottles at the speed of baby hunger emergencies. I cook messy, smelly stuff outside, but for some, that's not an option. It really depends on your kitchen and how you cook.

Heather:

I had a Wolf gas range for awhile and discovered that the black drip pan below the burners scratches very easily and the scratches really show.

I now have a Bluestar range that does not have that issue since the cooking surface is all cast iron.

Good to know, John. Thanks for the info.

You can keep an induction cooktop from shutting off due to heat fairly easily for simmering all day. One way would be to use a cabinet rather than drawers, to have more unimpeded volume of cooling air. Another would be to put vent slits either into the kitchen, outside, or the side cabinets, so the air volume doesn't just stay warm. You could even put in a fan! Or, do like I do, and open a couple of drawers while simmering. I close them when I stir, then pull them open again. But I also have used the space underneath to the maximum, with minimum required air space, and a small unit with as much cook power as the big boys but not as much cooling fan power.

OTOH, there's also the autoshutoff. On most digitally controlled cooking units, they'll turn off if you haven't fiddled with them for four hours. Some have overrides. Some don't. Some only have "Sabbath mode" but that's certified by a rabbi not to be keep warm only and not to bring your food above 140° F.

I simmer spaghetti sauce and stock for hours and hours on induction, but I do make adjustments while I'm stirring to let out the heated air and tell the unit I'm still there.

The thing is, with induction when you have the right setting, it's constant. Much moreso than gas. So with gas, I'm also fiddling with the flame just because it needs fiddling with.

I'm not patient enough to wait. Instant Pot on pressure cooker mode. Lol.

I guess, the big question is how much you are tied to dual fuel. I personally never felt the need for an electric oven. My Bluestar RNB oven works beautifully for me. And with an electric CSO, the need for dual fuel seems to be even less.

But as with most of these questions, it's a very personal choice. If you strongly feel that an electric oven would work much better for you, then that's going to be the overriding factor.

Other than that, the combination of a CSO and a freestanding range sounds great. That's the same thing we are doing. I'd love to have a 36" range, but we already own a 30" and we don't really want to give up the extra space given our constraints; so, that's what we are staying with. Also, we are getting a Miele SpeedOven microwave. So, we'll actually have a total of three ovens. I expect CSO and range to get the most use, though.

My 30" Bosch was gas and the oven turned out beautiful everything. I don't believe there's enough of a difference between gas and electric ovens in the upscale brands anymore - especially given the price difference for the dual fuel. I wouldn't worry about that. Thermador makes a good range - the Miele was really nice too. I was looking at the Electrolux fridge before I scored my sub zeros. I like the Electrolux appliances.

Where do you live? It used to be that it was hard to find Bluestar dealers, but I had the impression that they have become a lot more available in most markets over the last few years ... and if everything else fails, you can always order from Eurostoves. They have an excellent reputation in this forum and have some way to hook you up with Bluestar even when ordered over the internet. They might even be able to help you see one in person.

As for checking out the stove. That obviously is always a good idea. But let me reassure you that you'll like it. I have read about people complaining that their ranges were defective (and that can happen with any brand), but I don't recall ever reading about anybody buying a Bluestar and then complaining that the design was so bad they regretted their choice of brand. And in recent years, anecdotally, complaints about quality seem to have decreased a lot.

That just leaves you with the question of whether you want an RNB or if you want to spend the extra money on the Platinum model. And yes, that's something where seeing it in person does help -- I don't think the Gardenweb forum has reached a consensus on this question either.

I have heard of induction ranges having restrictions on the number of pots that can be heated at the same time. I have never heard this about gas unless you seriously undersize the supply pipe. But a plumber can fix that easily

I'm getting a gas Wolf range top and if you have questions - Wolf is happy to answer them. They were extremely prompt about the downdraft questions I had.

If you have a four burner gas stove, or induction cooktop, you can have four pots. No difference. The thing about a range is that either the cooktop or the oven will be better because they have to bring it in for a price. If you purchase separately, you can get the best of both.

We have decided to go with the miele cso 24 inch, the freestanding dual fuel miele 26 inch range and an Electrolux fridge/freezer side by side. Now I just have to research between regular Electrolux and the Icon series. And a hood fan. We already have a Bosch dishwasher.

the Blue Star ranges required too much cleaning time on my part. I liked the closed burner system and the fact that I could leave the racks in on the Miele during the self clean mode.

Too much cleaning? No way. I honestly can't remember the last time I spent more then 30s cleaning my Bluestar open burners. And that's 20s spent on wiping the stainless steel trim, and 10s on wiping the cast iron grates. They are so super low maintenance once you season them on the first day.

Actually that's not quite true. I did spend a few minutes about two months ago changing the aluminum foil in the drip trays. So, I guess about two or three times a year, there is a little more work

Cranberry, Cleaning preferences are a very personal thing. If that were the only thing holding you back, you could buy a BS with sealed burners. On the other hand, you were asking about ovens in your original post. BS and Miele are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum in functionality. This does not mean one is better than the other, because just like cleaning, different things are important to different cooks.

It is interesting in this thread and others to read that some think there are less differences in modern gas and electric ovens than older ovens. Even in the most basic ovens, gas ovens are ventilated more so you lose more heat and humidity, which is released into the kitchen. This is more drying to the surface of what you are cooking so promotes browning which is great for roasting and even some baking. Electric ovens, especially modern ones are ventilated much less so hold onto any humidity from food that is cooking, so you have a more humid environment which promotes starch gelatinization in baking, allowing a little longer rise and some difference in the texture of the crust. If you add a convection fan you add more air movement, which is drying so this is a really good thing in an electric oven. Over time, more features have been added to electric ovens to increase control of the cooking environment and energy efficiency. There have been some features for gas too, like the infrared broiler but overall most have been added to electric ovens.

In the Miele you have a huge amount of control over the cooking environment in your oven. Miele is unique in having these functions in a range. You have control of humidity, both adding steam and removing moisture to crisp and brown what you are cooking. You also have a lot of control over the direction of heat and most likely fan speed. Use and care manuals often do not mention fan speed but you can call them and ask or just listen to the different modes and will hear it. You also have dual fans so this breaks up air currents giving better turbulence and is especially beneficial in a 36" oven. These things can be a huge advantage if you are a baker. It does require time to experience and learn how these modes all work. I would keep a copy of the manual handy and keep notes. Miele has a lot of recipes that were developed and tested to take advantage of these features. What might be viewed as a downside by some is that this is all controlled by a computer board. I would definitely get the longest extended warranty that you can. This would be true for any appliance with a computer board.

BlueStar is much more simple. For some this is a big advantage. You can set the temp and the convection fan is on or off. You can manually add humidity but it is more difficult to keep it in the oven. Some take a cast iron pan and add lava rock and then add water to get steam.

I think people notice the difference in humidity more if you are going from one fuel to the other. I have seen many bakers saying their cakes or breads do not rise as well going from electric to gas. I have also seen a complaint or two that electric ovens were too steamy by people coming from gas to electric. If you have cooked in one or the other over time, you have recipes that work in that type of fuel.

No one has mentioned the difference in broilers. The BS has an infrared broiler which is very hot and even but smaller.

I'm going to admit that I have a housekeeper, so I have professional help keeping my appliances in pristine condition. However, if it's truly ridiculous to maintain, that's a problem. I have a Kenmore elite dishwasher that needs to be fully disassembled (like what a technician would do) in order to clean it out and I find this truly absurd (this dishwasher was sold around 2008 ish and was rebadged as a Kitchenaid and a Whirlpool Gold). I've been told that Miele ovens take a bit of a learning curve in order to appreciate all the features.

I think your choice is excellent. I checked out the Miele range (but in my kitchen a range won't work) and LOVED the contour handles and the features. I think you'll be very happy.

I chose Miele ovens too. I know that any higher end brand is going to have great ovens that heat evenly and produce great results, but the Miele hit it out of the park, in my opinion.

"I know that any higher end brand is going to have great ovens that heat evenly and produce great results"

You would think so, but sadly it is not the case. The more "features" and "technology" you start adding, the more difficult it is to get it right and more to go wrong. Some are put on the market with these flaws thinking I guess that no one will notice. Some less expensive ovens will bake much better than some very expensive ovens.

That's why I'm a fan of diversity in ovens. If you are getting more than one oven anyway, make sure they are distinct in features. This way, you can always pick the oven that is the best fit for the task at hand.

We have decided on keeping our 30" RNB Bluestar with it's no-nonsense but very reliable gas oven. And we're adding a Miele CSO and a very basic Miele Speedoven. They all fill different niches.

M, agreed. The only reason two of the same oven would be needed would be for capacity. Otherwise, different ovens for different functions.

Wekick. That's one reason I went with Bluestar. Simple controls that don't try to think for you.

Even capacity is often a misguided factor in making the decision, too. Don't get me wrong, I love the huge oven cavity that my 30" Bluestar has. Fitting fullsize cookie sheets into the oven is awesome. And there have been times when I have used this big capacity to great effect.

But I also find that very regularly, all I need is something that is maybe twice the size of a toaster oven and that heats up quickly. A second 30" oven is not just overkill, it actual would be a misfeature.

Now, the fact that Miele makes their CSO just a tad too small to hold a half-size cookie sheet is annoying. But that's a different topic.

M. Try using the broiler more often. At least in my electric Bluestar it heats up instantly and does a bang up job when I just want something quick. Obviously, I don't use the broiler when baking bread, but then the oven is typically pretty full anyway. I'm assuming the broiler is the same size in your gas oven.

Yes, the broiler is awesome. Not useful for baking or for slow cooking a stew, but definitely useful for a bunch of applications

Yale has an article on their blog saying the new Jenn Air ovens cooked cookies as evenly and better than some of the top high end brands (Wolf, Thermador, Miele, etc).

I'm highly considering them. I currently have the new Wolf M ovens and have had chipping issues with one. I never self cleaned (but did the burn in) and definitely never put foil on the floor!

My husband has finally gotten into the appliance aspect of the reno and he is thinking of adding a miele speed oven. Do any of you have one? Is it worth it?

I grew up in Germany. Back in the eighties, it was difficult to find microwave ovens. So, my parents eventually ended up buying a SpeedOven instead. They still have and use it, although by now the controls are pretty broken.

When I moved to the States, I have definitely missed the combination modes on occasion. Can I live without a SpeedOven? Definitely. Can I justify the huge premium over getting a $150 microwave from Costco? Honestly, the answer should probably be "no". But, will I enjoy having one. I think that's a "yes".

I expect that my steam oven will find a lot more use. And I would spend money on that type of oven first. But if there is money left for a brand-name built-in microwave, then spend the extra premium to get a SpeedOven instead of a plain old microwave. There will be dishes on occasion that cook vastly faster that way.

There is a current thread of speed oven versus microwave. I splurged on the Miele Speed Oven over the micro in addition to my Miele CSO and 30" wall oven and have never regretted the extra $$$ but budget was not an issue for us. I love having the extra flexibility of a 3rd oven and very occasionally do we use the "speed" function. It really depends on how you expect to use the ovens in your kitchen.

I fully agree with Kim, and in fact we are making the exact same choice. If it's a choice between either a CSO or a SpeedOven, get the former. But if you have the option of getting both, then the extra oven is going to be helpful anytime you cook larger meals. And yes, the SpeedOven feature on occasion is nice to have (e.g. for many potato dishes)