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Counter top dispute with fabricator

Phil Rhudy Sr.
6 years ago

Has anyone had issues with quartz counter top installation problems and how were the issues resolved? 8/13/16, I ordered 59.9 square feet of Silestone from
Home Depot store #2576. Home Depot used their sub-contractor M. R. Stone, LLC
to fabricate and install the counter tops. I contend that M. R. Stone, LLC. produced
unacceptable, unworkmanlike results by ignoring industry quality standards and standard
industry practices.

In order to fabricate my main 99” x 66”, “L” shaped counter
top section, M.R. Stone connected 2 unmatched pieces of 1-1/4” gauge Silestone that were different
thicknesses (1.169”/1.193”) resulting in very noticeable “lippage” that can be felt very easily, at the seam on both the top and
bottom surfaces at the front, center of the sink Also, the mating edges of these 2 pieces were not cut parallel to each
other at the factory resulting in the installer raising the left section 3/16” as
he ratcheted the 2 pieces together while the right side
remained flat. The characteristics do not meet the requirements described in the document, “A
Homeowner’s Guide to Natural Stone Countertop installation” My
"Blanco" under mount sink, which is designed to be installed clamped against the
underside of the counter top using manufacture’s (Blanco) hardware and specific instructions, was instead installed
independent of the counter top leaving a gap of ~1/4” which was filled with
silicone sealant. M. R. Stone installed the under mount sink
using 2 drywall screws and some scrap wood
independent of the counter top which voids Blanco’s warranty. Also, inexplicably the screws were put in horizontally
from the sink side so that the screw heads are blocked by the sink and cannot
be accessed without removing the sink which is
now blocked by the counter top. The bottom edges of the back splashes were all cut on opposing angles (some
left and some right) causing some to be installed with the top edge leaning 1/8”
into the room.

Comments (52)

  • Kathryn P
    6 years ago

    Yep, your issue is with Home Depot. Definitely give them a call!

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Kathryn P
  • nosoccermom
    6 years ago

    This is almost one year ago. Did you inform both HD and the fabricator at the time and request it be redone?

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
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  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    M Miller/natepeterliz: Thanks for your replies. I wanted to put the issue out there to see if others had similar experiences with the thought that I would respond to any comments or inquiries that were posted. In my own situation,
    I have plenty of background information - I observed the installation of my counter tops on 9/9/16 and was immediately disappointed with the manufacturing and installation
    quality both during and after the installation. I called M.R. Stone (the installer and Home Depot Subcontractor) the next
    morning following the installation to complain and arranged for a meeting with
    their service manager to discuss my complaints which was arranged for 11 days later on 9/20/16. I
    described and demonstrated my complaints in detail to the service manager and he determined that the installation was acceptable - No reasoning, no defense, no explanation.

    I requested another
    meeting with this manufacturer's service manager and asked him to bring Home Depot's service manager to this follow-up meeting. That meeting was held in my home 8 days later on 9/28/16. I again described and
    demonstrated my complaints in detail.
    Both service managers agreed that the counter top and
    installation were acceptable though neither of them could provide a reference
    for their decision at that time and they could not agree with each other as to
    what constituted unacceptable features. They said (which I still can't believe) that the installation was "the best that they could do and was therefore acceptable".
    In other words if they decreed that it was "ok", then it was ok. The Home Depot service manager asked me what resolution I was requesting, to which I replied that I wanted the main countertop replaced in
    accordance with the warranty and the sink mounted correctly in accordance with
    the manufacturer’s instructions. He said that he would not agree to do that. I
    asked M R Stone’s service manager to quote the standards they use during
    manufacture and which he was using to defend the workmanship. He said that they use a specification but he wasn’t sure of its
    title but he agreed to furnish me a copy which he did via email 2 days later on
    9/30/16. That specification was “A Homeowner’s Guide to Natural Stone Countertop
    installation” written by the Marble Institute of America. I wasn't aware until that moment that there are actual specifications and standards that govern this work - all my complaints until then was based on my sincere belief that the manufacture and installation was unworkmanlike and that Home Depot would stand behind their warranty which guarantees that "....The Home Depot warrants the workmanship of the installation for one (1) year from the completion date". I have since determined that their warranty is worthless because they identify themselves as the sole judge of workmanship. I reviewed my complaints against the requirements of their referenced specification and several features are clearly outside the specification limits. In other words - M. R. Stone, LLC. and Home Depot have determined that the installation is acceptable - end of story as far as they are concerned. Any ideas as to next steps would be appreciated. I paid cash for the purchase so I can't use the credit card company to come to my defense. I'm already into my 10th month of the one(1) year warranty. Thanks so much for the replies.

  • cpartist
    6 years ago

    Take it to the main offices of HD, not your local store. Keep going up the chain of command. Also post pictures here and then use that as leverage assuming we all agree with you. Then you can let HD know that you are posting on the net about the problem.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked cpartist
  • palimpsest
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Technically this is off topic but credit card use as a safety measure was mentioned.

    I would urge everyone to carefully read the Exclusions before they assume that their credit card company is going to cover something like this.

    I have a credit card with a major company and I am at a relatively high level of card. But my company specifically excludes many building materials, plumbing and light fixtures, and wall-to-wall carpet, things meant to be installed.

    I found this out when I had light fixtures delivered to a workplace and the box was either inadvertantly thrown away (it had been opened by someone at work and it was very light so the cleaning crew may have thought the box was empty) or they were stolen--after they had been signed for in a large group shipment of office things.

    Because they were light fixtures that required installation, they were not covered. It did not matter that I never received them, that they were lost or stolen and that they were not installed. All that mattered was that they were meant to be installed. They were not covered. Period.

    The company who fabricated them actually wrote them off and refunded my money after I placed an identical order and told them what happened.

    So don't assume that your credit card company will automatically be of help for something like this like they are for many purchases.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked palimpsest
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Phil:


    I thought you may like to see what your sink flange will look like in 8 months or so. I pulled this one yesterday; it had been installed less than 2 years using this method which sounds similar to yours.:

    When I pressed on the sink center, water would ooze from the pictured black mold in the gap.

    I wouldn't use Blanco's clips; I'd use a Hercules Universal Sink Harness (Braxton Bragg) or a Sink Strap (Regent Stone Products) which is what I used here. There is no longer mold, there will be no more, and you can press as hard as you please, but the sink center doesn't budge.


    These are not proper sink supports. It sounds like this is what you have.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • barncatz
    6 years ago

    Ha, Joseph, and it's appreciated here. :)

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked barncatz
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: Here are a few photos of my installation. Top photo is a view facing inside the cabinet showing the scrap pieces of wood used to rest the sink prior to adding the 1/4" bead of silicone sealer to hold the left side of the sink - sink is to the right and cabinet to the left; Second photo is a view facing inside the cabinet of the scrap pieces of wood used to rest the sink prior to adding the 1/4" bead of silicone sealer to hold the right side of the sink - sink is to the left and cabinet to the right; The third photo is a view of the 1/4" gap between the sink and underside of the countertop; The fourth photo is a view facing upward of the scrap pieces of wood used to rest the sink prior to adding the 1/4" bead of silicone sealer to hold the left side of the sink - sink is to the right and cab to the left (you can see the drywall screw heads faintly between the sink and wood). The fifth photo (actually turned 90 degrees) is a view facing upward of the scrap pieces of wood used to rest the sink prior to adding the 1/4" bead of silicone sealer to hold the right side of the sink - sink is to the top and cab to the bottom (you can see the drywall screw heads faintly between the sink and wood). The sixth photo shows a 6 foot straight edge across the seam - seam is in the center of the photo. The Seventh photo shows the 3/16" gap at the left end of the counter top which was created when the installer over-tightened the tensioning clamps and actually raised the left end; The eight photo shows the "lippage" or the difference in the height (and thickness) of the 2 sections - a 12" steel rule across the seam (seam is in the center of the photo at the right edge of the rule) with the right end of the rule setting on the left end of the right section - you can see the space under the rule. Sorry for the poor descriptions - hopefully the photos speak for themselves.








  • User
    6 years ago

    The sink support issue is your only legit gripe. And not difficult to fix if you get someone with a clue.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked User
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    No Sophie, Silestone insists on cabinets being level (Manual for Professional Use #4); these are not. I'm sure they'd let a plastic laminate shim pass, but those 1/4"er's won't fly. The tops should be flat; that level ain't lyin'.

    The sink installation is a kludge.

    " the 1/4" bead of silicone sealer to hold the right side of the sink..." While silicone does have some adhesive properties, its function here is that of a gasket only. Mechanical fasteners need to do the work.

    I cannot imagine how M.R. Stone can't be dying of embarrassment. Shameful.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Sophia Wheeler/ Joseph Corlett, LLC: Thanks for the professional opinions. Let me add this to see if it alters your opinion - M.R. Stone sent their representative to my home prior the finalizing the order to inspect the cabinets for level and flatness and to finalize the dimensions. He created a document that confirms that the cabinets are flat and level. The specification "A homeowner's guide to Natural Stone Countertop Installation" and Silestone's instructions both specify that the installed counter top must be flat and level within 2/16" (1/8") over 10' of length. My left end of my counter top is raised 3/16" over 5' of length for the reasons described in my other posts. 3/16" is obviously more than 2/16". I know that it's only 1/16" over but over none the less. I am interested in how you reconcile this value that exceeds the standard. To me it's a simple specification issue. Regarding the sink removal - did you understand that the drywall screws securing the wood blocks holding the sink are not accessible as they were covered by the sink and there is only a very narrow space to get a tool (if one exists) into the space? I've done a lot of projects around the house and I don't know how I would get this sink out without ruining the sink and/or the counter top. Thanks for humoring me - I am learning a lot.

  • millworkman
    6 years ago

    " I've done a lot of projects around the house and I don't know how I would get this sink out without ruining the sink and/or the counter top. "


    Not your problem, wrong is wrong. If they damage the top and or sink to remove and reinstall/reset properly then it is an expensive lesson on them and they should have done it correct the first time.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked millworkman
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Phil:

    You never use drywall screws in a structural application such as this as they have little strength in shear.


    In your case, this is good news, because if you drive a bar between the blocking and cabinet, the screws will snap right off, freeing the sink. You may not even have to tap the cabinet front off which is what you do instead of removing the top.


    With the pictured shims, either the cabinets are out of level or the top is out of level, since the top does not sit on the cabinets directly.



    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • nosoccermom
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I'd check my credit card fine print, get Silestone involved, confirm that this is not up to specs, send a final letter to HD headquarters and Mr Stone, setting them a deadline to come and fix the issue. And then I'd head to small claims court.

    I see that the store and fabricator are in Maryland, actually a fairly consumer friendly state. Call the attorney general's office and ask about statute of limitations and, more importantly, what recourse you have. I found them very helpful.

    As an aside, I find this super disappointing because I'm also in the market for quartz, for the same service area.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: Thanks, that's a great observation about the drywall screws being brittle. You also mentioned Silestone (Manual for Professional Use #4) as a reference for cabinet level requirement. Silestone/Cosentino also publishes another, more specific document titled "Quartz Surfacing Fabrications - Section 12 3262" - part 3.3 - A - says "maximum variation from level and plumb: 1/8" in 10 feet". This is the same value as shown in “A Homeowner’s Guide to Natural Stone Countertop Installation”, page 6 under "Slab Flatness and Levelness" which says "finished countertop surfaces including multiple stones are to be flat and level to 1/8" across 10'". It appears to me that 1/8" in 10' may be the accepted industry standard for flatness. The left end of my countertop is raised 3/16" (in 5') - clearly more than the 1/8" maximum shown in both standards. I am learning a lot about counter top installation requirements that I which I had known before I bought mine. I still can't understand how Home Depot and M.R. Stone, LLC can continue to deny responsibility in defiance of these written rules. They really have me in a corner.

  • Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
  • javiwa
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Phil: I'm reading, seeing and feeling your absolute frustration. Almost a year ago, I was at a point where small claims seemed to be the only recourse to deal with my fabricator. While the call(s) for going through the small claims process are well intentioned, please read my recent experience as a cautionary tale here (scroll down to my June 10, 2017 post).

    It appears that MD is the same as TX in this regard: Don't think the small claims process is over just because you filed a claim, went to trial and won a court judgment. You may need to take action and spend money to enforce the judgment. The collection process can be time consuming and there is no guarantee that the debtor will pay you the amount owed.

    I (and an attorney) felt my case was open-and-shut: I contracted for a countertop consisting of two pieces of stone + one seam. 100% due to their error (and this was after four separate trips out to measure and/or template), I ended up with a four-piece, three-seam counter. The gaps they left far exceeded what was clearly industry standard.

    I truly wish you the best with your kitchen.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked javiwa
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    javiwa: Thanks for the input. Sounds like you won your case which is good news for you and motivation for me. Was the defendant one of the big box stores like Home Depot or Lowes? As you probably noted, my complaint is with Home Depot and their contractor M.R. Stone, LLC. I wrote a letter today to Home Depot senior management and threatened to go to a local TV station where they publicize consumer complaints - I'll see if that gets any attention. Questions if you don't mind sharing - What was the basis for your case? general poor workmanship? contract failure? failure to conform to an industry standard? something else? Did you refer to any standard or specification in your case? I think that most people would have given up by this point but I am determined to see this until the end. I despise being taken advantage of or cheated.

  • millworkman
    6 years ago

    Sometimes even when you win, you still lose in the end...........

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked millworkman
  • javiwa
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Phil: Sorry if my main point got lost in all my blather: because I had zero faith that this company would pay me a dime had I won (based on their underhandedness with their completely bogus countersuit), I settled. This is/was a private company, family run. The basis of my suit would have been breach of contract: I contracted for a countertop to consist of two pieces of stone joined by one seam at an agreed upon location. Instead, I ended up with a four-piece puzzle job and three seams (my typo corrected up there...sorry). This company proudly boasts on their website their membership with the Marble Institutes of America; so, I'd planned on using the MIA Homeowner's Guide to Natural Stone Countertop Installation to support my case.

    Just because I settled doesn't mean I'm any less angry about being taken advantage of.

    ETA: In my case, I guess settled means nothing more than 'dropped the suit'.


    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked javiwa
  • javiwa
    6 years ago

    Sorry, Phil: I just realized I didn't provide a link for the thread I started. Just edited to add that above....or click here.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked javiwa
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    millworkman: You are correct - If I count up the value of my time at some nominal amount like $10 per hour - I have probably already spent approx. 200 hours (or $2000) on this quest to resolve a countertop issue that cost $4000 and there is no end or satisfactory outcome in sight. The problem now is that restitution has now become somewhat of an obsession at this point. In fact, I think that if Home Depot and M. R. Stone, LLC. had admitted some failures in the beginning rather than treat me as being unreasonable, I may have let it go. Maybe my struggle will motivate Home Depot and M. R. Stone, LLC to improve their practices and that will ultimately help others. I'll say this - everyone that I encounter that is considering buying counter tops will hear my story about Home Depot and M. R. Stone, LLC.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    "...everyone that I encounter that is considering buying counter tops will hear my story about Home Depot and M. R. Stone, LLC."


    And this is as it should be. Potential customers of mine can read all about how I allegedly overcharged, left a mess in a cabinet (true, the client's plumber lied and said he would clean up), but nowhere are there pictures of my work that look like these. They are non-existant.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • nosoccermom
    6 years ago

    You can be pretty sure that a judgment against HD will be enforced. You have already collected the information, pictures, feedback from experts, and a summary of your complaint. I'd complain to Silestone and then spend the 50.00 to file a claim in small claims court. You don't need a lawyer.

    I bet chances are that HD will settle ASAP because sending out a lawyer to court will cost them more than settling. At least that was my experience with another big box store.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
  • User
    6 years ago

    Joe, I am curious about one of the pictures you show as well as the one the OP posted. A friend has this same installation of an undermount sink "resting" on a piece of wood (wedged at an angle) with three screws going into the side of the cabinet. I thought I read that this a good way to hold the sink in lieu of clips. Should my friend be concerned?

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked User
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Home Depot and M.R. Stone are continuing to refuse to honor their "warranty" so I filed a claim in small claims court. I am sure that they realize that the resolution is to replace the main counter top and remount the sink which will cost them as much or more that a loss in small claims court. I also understand that Home Depot defends these cases vigorously with lawyers that they keep on retainer so the odds are in their favor in front of a judge. It would not make sense for me to hire a lawyer because the cost would exceed any possible settlement. I am trying to find someone in the business to provide an "expert" opinion on the workmanship of my installation and to bolster my claims but local counter top companies won't get involved - must be some kind of professional courtesy not to critique other company's work. I'll keep looking. I also sent a complaint letter to the Home Depot's national office and filed a case with the MHIC.

  • Debbi Branka
    6 years ago

    Home Depot's lawyers can't defend them in small claims - no lawyers allowed. Would be nice if you live near Joseph Corlett - maybe he would be an expert for you. Or maybe you can do it by photos and an expert report (by mail). Just a thought.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Debbi Branka
  • User
    6 years ago

    Phil, sorry you are going through this. My friend who had HD install her quartz counters had the sink installed similar to yours. But in all other respects, her fabricator's work was top notch. Just curious, can you feel your sink shift and move? Her sink feels secure but perhaps with time, it will fall? If yours feels shaky and moves, make sure you not only take pictures but videos too.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked User
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Debbi Branka - Mobuddy89: Lawyers are not necessary in small claims court but they are permitted (I checked) - at least in Maryland. It's a real disadvantage when you are suing a big company because they have lawyers on retainer so costs are not a consideration for them. Regarding the sink - The sink does not feel shaky at this time but the workmanship warranty is only good for a year - after that it's my problem.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Phil:

    I just got off the phone with a guy who had HD install a top a decade ago His reinforcement rod is exploding and he's already wasted $350.00 having someone else "repair" it without pulling the rod. He's making a claim; I'll keep you posted.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: Thanks - I'll be interested in how that works out. The current HD warranty is good for 1 year so it will be interesting to see how HD's responds. I am guessing that they won't do anything.

  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Mobuddy89: Regarding the sink mounting process using screws. Should your friend be concerned? Yes. Consider that the sink hardware will have to support about 75 gallons of water, possibly a sink full of pots and pans, the garbage disposal and sink plumbing - maybe 100 pounds? In my case I bought a Blanco quartz under mount sink and Blanco provides explicit instructions with the sink for using their provided clip hardware. Their "limited lifetime warranty" is conditional on using these clips with their procedure and the warranty is voided if it a different method is used. Joseph Corlett, LLC. had an interesting comment about using drywall screws as an alternative and the fact that drywall screws have no shear strength which means that they would tend to snap off easily if stressed. As far as I am concerned, using pieces of wood and a few drywall screws is a shortcut that the installers use to save time and effort and if you are not watching the installation (as I did) you won't even know they used this method until it fails after the installers are long gone. You can't see it from the outside. Also, I have never seen this method recommended as an installation alternative in any sink instruction or do-it-yourself publication that I have ever seen.

  • User
    6 years ago

    Joe, given the info that you provided and Phil explained, is it possible to add sink support after the fact without taking it out? My friend's installation looks exactly like the pic posted (Joe's) but instead of one screw there are three and it appears to be MDF not wood. I assume this fabricator does this on all of their jobs or perhaps only when contracted out by HD? It has only been 3 months since her install but calling the firm back when there is no failure yet will most likely result in nothing but frustration.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked User
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Taking a sink out isn't always necessary to strap it back in place, but it's my preferred method because it's so much easier to clean the flange of old caulk. Otherwise just drop the sink in the cabinet. Most sinks will come out the hole they're installed into; if not, tap the cabinet front off, it's not that big a deal. I've yet to pull a stone top to change a sink.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Here's the 10-year-old HD top with the blown rod that I mentioned earlier:

    This is why sink attachment is so critical. Your leaking sink dumps water on the steel reinforcement, it soaks through the polyester, oxidizes (expands) the rod, and it splits the stone.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Mobuddy89: Your friend probably won't get any acceptable remedy at this point but she should still complain in writing. This will put the installers on notice that she is not satisfied and might give her some leverage if she has a problem in the future. There are after market support systems for under mount sinks (Amazon.com) that can be added under the sink - maybe your friend could insist that the installers install one as a compromise remedy. One thing is sure - If she doesn't complain then nothing will be done.

  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: Question - You said that you just "...otherwise drop the sink in the cabinet". You may recall that the screws/wood scraps used to support my sink were installed horizontally from the sink side which are now covered by the sink. This is now a very tight space (1/4" to 3/8") to work and these are drywall screws and they are counter sunk as drywall screws are designed to do, so you cannot get a tool into this space. In your experience, how would I remove the screws (and the wood scraps) without first removing the sink? M.R. Stone's CSAR claims that these could be easily removed with a grinder. I am generally aware of tools that are available and I don't know of a grinder that could get into this space without considerable collateral damage. What do you think? Thanks for the professional insight and support.

  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    I'd just get a set of these http://www.fabricatorssupply.net/catalogs/Cinclips-System-2014-NP.pdf


    Easy to install and only $30.




    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked ksc36
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Drive a flat bar between the wood and the cabinet sides. You may have to use a sledge directly on the screw, but they will fail. I'd drill a hole in a 2x4, span it across the sink, pull the disposal, put a bar clamp through the 2x4 and the disposal opening to keep the sink from falling.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    ksc36:


    A Hercules Universal Sink Harness is $5.99. and turns a sink into a truss. Perimeter supports like the Cinclips do not.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Without pulling the sink, how would you get that harness in place? The reason I'm following this thread is I just had a blanco undermount installed in my soapstone counters. They used the blanco clips but I've seen that a few soapstone outfits don't recommend these clips. If everything is already installed I see those cinclips as good insurance.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked ksc36
  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Also if you read the blanco installation instructions they say you can use a wood block screwed into the cabinet frame to support the sink...

    http://www.blanco-germany.com/media/media/20_bam_medien/01_dokumente_1/pdf_2/installation_3/Undermount_Installation_Instructions_.pdf


    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked ksc36
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    ksc36/Joseph Corbett, LLC: I read the instructions and if you read it carefully, the wood block method is an alternative to use only if the clips are too long for the application ; in other words, if the clips would extend past, and sit on the cabinet side walls and keep the counter top from sitting on the cabinets. I don't think this would normally be an issue when installing a 30" sink into a 36" cabinet - both typical, standard sizes. I don't read it as an alternative technique to be used at the discretion of the installer in place of the specified technique using the Blanco instructions and hardware. In my opinion (which I have developed during my ordeal), installers will almost always use wood and screws instead of anchors and hardware because it is simply faster and easier with less chance of making a mistake - plus there's no immediate downside. The customer, unless he is watching closely and knows what he is looking at, will never know what the installer did .................until possibly months or years later. On the other hand, using the anchors requires that the counter top be turned over (bottom up) which would probably require a third installer. The installers that did my counter tops consisted of 1 installer and 1 helper - they were in my house about 2 hours. They said that they had 4 counter top installations to do and they had to be done that day. I don't know how these guys are paid but I suspect that they are paid by the job and the number of jobs they sign up for or are assigned - speed is definitely a factor in their pay. Incidentally, the men that did my installation were also upset at the mistakes in the manufacturing of my counter top requiring them to make field adjustments which ultimately resulted in my counter top not being flat and the "lippage". I tried to get their names so that I could subpoena them to small claims court but M.R.Stone, LLC would not provide their contact information.

  • nosoccermom
    6 years ago

    Can you subpoena MR Stone, LLC, to provide you with the names of the installers?

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    nosoccermom: Good question - I don't know but I will check with the court. Thanks.

  • nosoccermom
    6 years ago

    And/or subpoena the installation paper work from MR Stone.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked nosoccermom
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Phil:

    Here are a couple of illustrations of my previous posts:

    Driving a bar into the blocking/screws.

    A bar clamp and 2x keeps the sink from shearing off your shutoff valves when it drops. Really important if your plumbing is CPVC. Don't ask me how I know, please.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC
  • Phil Rhudy Sr.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: Thanks - Very clever innovations. I suppose that I would drive the bar up into the wood blocking/screws until the screws break off? The blocking and screws in my installation are deeper into the cabinet - maybe 12" back but the technique should still work. Apparently you are accustomed to problem solving - ie. finding a workable solution to whatever problem with which you are faced - impressive.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    Phil:


    Here's what your wood blocking is going to look like soon with the black mold:

    Note how the screws are broken off. The bar will remove screws in the rear; I just took that for a better picture.

    Phil Rhudy Sr. thanked Joseph Corlett, LLC