If they give you details then you can probably see how inflated their quote is or start negotiating on line items. An educated consumer is not good for profits. Get quotes from other companies, maybe they'll break it down for you. Is this an intial scoping quote or have you picked out all of the details of your cabinetry?

Was it given to you in the sense of an approximate range? Like "if you get all the bell and whistles, drawer inserts, best quality that we offer, you'd be looking around $25k or if you just got a few extras at our midrange, it could run anywhere from $12-19k"? I have had a few quotes that basically gave me the average cost of a low, mid and high range kitchens they have installed.

They are probably trying to protect their design. Rephrase your question that you want the 'specifications' of the cabinet construction and a list of all the interior accessories and what moldings were included. That's not giving away any design work, but will give you the information you need to compare against other brands.

It seems to me that it is reasonable to expect details of cabinet construction (at least in general, i.e. inset or full overlay), hinge and drawer hardware, door style, finish type, and whether the quote includes installation.

Hi Artemis Elias,

And you've been an editor, who likes to make things more concise, for ... how long?

"Let's see ... as for the details of the contract, to make it a bit more precise ... if we remove a "t" ... and an "i" ... and an "s" ...

... the "details" becomes a "deal" ... and, as far as I'm concerned: 'no details - no deal'!

Of course ... you might want to check a few other potential contractors, first.

Plus ask around among friends and acquaintances as to the reputation of several.

ole joyful

I don't give away my designs, but I do show people renderings (see examples below) and I spell out the details on the quote: the brand, series, door, wood, finish, construction, drawers, countertops, hardware, backsplash, other materials and a separate line item for installation and other labor...etc. It protects the homeowner as well as my business. I will show my clients pricing item for item, if they ask for it. Surprisingly, most don't. I don't give out printed copies of my designs or price lists. Most of the time, I'll give them a rendering or two if it was a simple design. Time consuming complex or creative designs, I require a visit where they are shown the designs and given a quote. Once a design fee or deposit has been paid, I will give out all information.

Shiloh Cabinetry - Rustic Alder Silas Finish & Graphite Highlight · More Info

Shiloh Cabinetry - Rustic Alder Silas Finish & Graphite Highlight · More Info

I was walking through a prospective kitchen job once, foolishly thinking aloud, and gave an excellent door-relocation idea to a potential I never heard from again.

There's a story of Picasso having dinner in a restaurant when a fan approaches, pulls out a napkin, insists the master draw him something and that he will pay. In less than a minute, Picasso drew a goat on the napkin and said "That will be $100,000.00." The fan was outraged. "But that only took you less than a minute!". Picasso said "That took 40 years." and pocketed the napkin.

I'm keeping my napkins in my pocket until I get paid from now on.

I paid a $1000 design fee that would be a credit toward my order if I used that company. The design was mine. I also got a detailed estimate at that time - size, prices - the whole Monty. I would not even consider doing business with someone like you describe. You can do better.

The $1,000.00 design fee is a qualifier too. Tire kickers and the non-serious time wasters don't usually kick up a grand to do so.

As a textile designer who used to do custom work, I totally 100% agree with your analogy, Joseph and I think it's great that you can keep your napkins in your pocket. I didn't blink at the $1000 fee charged by the first KD I went to because I respected their time and talent... and didn't understand the market. The price a company can charge and the level of service, or lack thereof, that they can be expected to provide for that price, are wholly dependent on what the market can bear. Shopping around in my town taught me that it is a highly competitive for KDs and cabinet fabricators (now that I notice them, they do seem to be on every corner) and providing detailed designs are part of the bidding process for the majority. OP, i'd be really curious to hear how you get served by other companies if you choose to get more quotes. The standard could be very different from one city to the next and maybe a one-line quote is the norm where you are.

I didn't blink at the design fee for the first design/build firm I hired. I didn't pick them carelessly & thought they were "good" based on my research. In the end I spent 3k and got very little for it.

Based on the amazing free help I got here compared to the mediocre expensive "professional" advice received elsewhere, honestly I think you would be nuts to pay 1k for a kitchen layout. Id gladly have paid up for the layout I eventually ended up with, just don't think I'd have gotten there just by paying a kitchen designer for a plan.

Ha no details no deal is right!

Seriously how could you be expected to pay for something when you don't know what it is your paying for or what your getting? How sketchy is that?! H@ll no! One kitchen group said we keep the design/drawings til we sign the contract that's fine. but when I reviewed prob 8 pages of details and every line item I found tons of extra charges and inflated costs. Some examples were charges for 2 times the amount of crown molding I needed, all kinds of extra filllers, extra decorative end panels, paying extra for every cabinet made custom instead of not one standard size, etc. no sorry I don't play that way so it was bye bye to them. I saved myself $15K by not going with that group. DH and I look at everything like that. You have to! Check out your medical bills sometime if you want to put some more money back in your pocket.

MaWizz:

Your approach is much too adversarial for me. If my reputation for fairness has no value to you, I have nothing for you. Shop on, please.

Lol Joe Adversarial?! You mean it's too smart for you ;) and BTW I'm all about reputation! Every person I hire is word of mouth based on excellent reputations and all have been forthright and more than open and honest if I've questioned an itemization. Why wouldn't they be? It's not a bad thing and This is not about you as a person but rather about a person being an informed customer and getting what you pay for. Nothing more. In fact the guys doing my kitchen have been amazing with an excellent reputation. Today I asked them about doing something other than we had agreed to and signed off in the contract and they said sure no problem. I asked the cost they gave me the details we agreed and I said I felt bad about making the change they said don't worry about it sweetie we are here to make you happy so that you get what you want :) open, honest, flexible, and customer satisfaction baby :) Who doesn't want that?

I'm sure it doesn't hurt that I put 50% down and paid in cash ;)

well in our case we got two quotes, both custom

each one specified types of inside material(the boxes), types of doors(say, "stained walnut" or "painted alder"), styles of doors, soft closure, hinges..stuff like that

it didn't give price on each and every element

it did include 3-4 samples of painted door for us to choose the color

included installation

so it was more "the kitchen would be built of XYZ with ABC used", without breaking down all the prices, but with the final cost in the end of the quote

So maybe this company you're talking about, misunderstood what exactly you ask of them? Hard to imagine they won't specify anything at all.

I must say we had no kitchen designer..there was a builder's draftsman, and then we just figured it out with our cabinetmaker. Our kitchen is small-ish and frankly you don't need a designer on something as simple as that. Good cabinetmaker is enough to figure out the details with you.

The draftsman helped us for the sake of blueprints for the city since we partially enclosed the kitchen too..with him we mostly decided where exactly the line between the kitchen and the rest will be so everything fits..more the optimization of overall space kind of a thing. We figured out how we go about that in terms of design (by drawing a lot on the napkins lol), then he helped to calculate the exact measurements(i.e the wall stops here).

(Interestingly, both cabinetry quotes were identical yet one was 5 or so grand higher because more upscale shop. Would be 10 K higher but the cabinet guy was our GC's friend(the kitchen wasn't included in the quote, that was our initial agreement..they took care of installing the counters, tiling, electrical, etc..but the materials were on us). We went with the higher quote, because our GC really preferred to work with the guy he knew for years. The decision was hard since the quotes were truly identical, but we didn't regret it one moment. Saved many a trouble in terms of logistics I imagine, and the guy was top-notch)

On the other hand..right now we're looking into closet that has to be customized(non standard space, but we want to fit there standard cabinetry, cut it to fit)..and the company did give us a quote when they say "Model Such and such, pantry -size X price Y, toe kick-size X price Y, filler-size X price Y", etc.

but they're selling ready made, I imagine it's very different. It doesn't include labor. It doesn't include installation. Etcetera.

A casual shopper is entitled to nothing without money changing hands. You can have a look at a design, and know the cabinet line, color, and major features, but that is it. Once you pay the retainer, you are entitled to a line item quote, with several revisions.

Kitchen design is far far more than a list of boxes that you are purchasing. It's the experience to know which alteration is needed, vs using standard sizes. It's knowing the building codes that allow you to cook and interact safely with your family. Its the experience to show you how proportion, repetition, color, and contrast all integrate aesthetically.

If you are shopping a list of boxes and are only interested in a price, then you are not shopping the correct thing, and you are receiving poor value for your expenditure. The value lies in the experience and guidance of the KD, not in the boxes being sold.

Thank you all for your informative and useful comments. I opted to go for 3 more quotes insisting that I get the details. I sacked the guy who refused to give me any details. This is a new construction home so I am a very serious buyer - I also contacted all the homeowners associations they all belong to and they said I could insist on full details. My 3 other quotes had no problem in laying out the details for the quote. Now I know whether I want to spend more on some items versus others. Everyone needs to act in good faith - thank you again.

Cabinet designer - they are on the same path of travel agents in this day and age of internet and resources at our fingertips. When I first began my kitchen renovation process the first place I visited was one of those "design and build" business. I had no idea of how much what I wanted to do would cost me at that point at that point.

I took a sketch with my room layout and what I new needed to be done - move plumbing and electrical. The sales guy, a very nice guy at first, asked me if I was a dreamer or was serious. Asked me what was my budget, to which I answered I didn't have a set budget yet because I had no idea of the costs involved, but I was thinking on spending about 50 to 60k.

He came to my house, stayed here for over one hour measuring everything on sight and giving some suggestions in the lines of just working of the current kitchen instead of moving it. I was open to his ideas and he said he would send me 3 or 4 options with an estimate in about 2 weeks.

Fours weeks later and nothing - hadn't heard of him. Called, he asked for more time. One week later called again and I guess his boss answered - but I just said I was waiting for my estimates.

He sends me and estimate the next day of 96k for the work, not counting cabinets and countertop. We are talking here about moving plumbing and electrical to the next room in a house with drop ceiling basement.

And he wanted a deposit of 6k in order to work in any cabinet design at all. I was not even asking to keep the designs or anything like that.

He only sent me one estimate, not estimates to the alternative options he had suggested that would be cheaper btw.

I thanked him for his time and told him unfortunately I didn't have this kind of money to spend on a kitchen in a house that is worth 650k.

So by then I had found this website, and subscribed to room sketcher (because you guys ask for measurements and drawings:) ) - got better and better at using it. It was a struggle in the beginning, but with a week I knew how to use it properly and make changes quickly.

First I went to Lowes and then HD to get quotes and the only thing I knew is that I wanted glass door wall cabinets and minimum wood doors, base cabinets with lots of drawers, a spice rack and a coking utensils rack.

Then I went to a few other "design and build" places that sell the cabinetry maker I had chosen, but was upfront saying I only needed quotes for cabinetry and my contractor would install - I was not interested on installation, countertops or backsplash from them.

It took them 30 min of their time at most and they provided me a quote. There was some variation on the design here and there, but 99% of them were similar - white shaker, glass door wall cabinets on one wall, no wall cabinets on second wall, lots of drawers on base cabinets.

Oh, that first place I had visited, remember them? Well, I went there again to get a quote for the cabinetry only and explained I had my own contractor and architect because they sell the brand I was looking for. He had the gals to ask me to give him all the cabinets I would need with measurements and fillers etc so he could give me a quote.

Keep in mind I was still not asking for measurements of each cabinet or anything like that, I just wanted a quote to maybe buy a product from him.

So, after that I just said (in my head of course), screw you. And bought the cabinets from someone else. One of the other small business who had taken 30 min previously of their time to make a simple design.

Once I was ready to buy, of course they measured again and we sat down again to go over the design more throughly.

Meanwhile, I have found ikea planner software that I think it is even better (more user friendly) than room sketcher, and free to boot! I have been using it a lot lately to make some elevations for some questions I have here when I want to present different option. Although room sketcher permits we custom size our cabinetry if it is important.

I m in the process of replacing some windows in my home as well, and will be replacing them all in August (right now only kitchen and breakfast nook). Do you think any of the companies I requested a quote from charged me to come up with different options, measure and quote? Of course not.

I guess there is still a market for people who think cabinetry designer/seller is doing them favor coming up with a initial design and quote.

Sorry for the rant.