TheLawnForum

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Oh no, don't compost it! Surely it's not going to rot in the garage before August. Why do you think it will take many months to be processed by the microbes? I don't know specifically about cottonseed and alfalfa but the corn is definitely providing nitrogen within weeks. I didn't apply a lot of nitrogen, compared to normal rates for fertilizer, but it's greener and stronger.. I missed the late fall fertilization last year because the grass seemed to be still growing all through December and I let it go. Serems ridiculous to fertilize in January.. The rate of nitrogen depends on how much material is applied. You could supply a trickle through the summer by using a low rate. In fact the grains offer a chance for slow release trickles that other fertilizers, including Milorganite, don't. Either save it for August and September (maybe aim for the first part of August to allow more time for decomposition) or try a low trickle. As for me, I wanted whatever antifungal properties corn has to be active by May and June. I'm not doing more. We will be in the 90s later this week and I expect the grass will be going into survival mode soon. Last year I think I escaped brown patch (just did Serenade then, no corn) but the heat took its toll. Maybe if I had watered more when it went into distress instead of giving up, I would have had less casulties.

TheLawnForum.com is a fairly new group. Check it out.

Here is a picture of the backyard. It's as good as it will get.

Becky, your grass looks great! I hesitated to post this article because it is not from a university. However, it is related to our topic and easier to read than the Dissertation :) Sometimes, I read your & Ridgerunner's exchanges two and three times...and still can't quite process.... although I am trying. I wish dchall would chime in since he is so experienced with the organics, even though Texas and warm season grass has different requirements for turf care. Here is a simple article outling organic breakdowns and the soil microbes. It does not discuss mycorrhizae.

www.noahhealth.org/top-10-natural-organic-fertilizers/#pnm

Ridgerunner and I have been talking about mycorrhizae in other threads. Here is a good introductory, readable article. Here is a study comparing inorganic and organic fertilizer effects on them.

Here is a source that says cottonseed meal is readily available to plants in warm soil. But this one suggests applying in the fall for a spring planting. And your article says "months." And here is a U of Maryland publication that says it is slow release and lasts 6 months to a year. That suggests months to become available. Or maybe it is just a very slow, trickling one, good for a little bit over a long time but not effective in fulfilling an immediate deficit. In the fall you want a good supply of nitrogen during September and October, the prime growing months. And you want it then, not later. l don't think dchall is reading this thread. Why don't you do one that will get his attention, like "when will nutrients in cottonseed meal become available to grass?" Maybe you could use the cottonseed meal as a long-term trickling fertilizer and use the alfalfa in August, maybe supplemented by a synthetic in September or October. Or Milorganite. That has a fast release component. How much cottonseed meal and alfalfa do you have and how large is your yard? I assume you mulch mow your leaves in the fall. They supply wonderful organic matter.

You are an amazing researcher! I hope you are also well paid because you should be analyst. I know better than to offer non-university sites. I will read articles later and ponder as to how to get dchall to participate. I am familiar with the beneficial symbiotic relationship roots have with mycorrhizae...just in a more vague, less scientific way... You would enjoy The Truth about Organic Gardening by Jeff Gillman. Formerly from Minnesota, he now works at UNC-Charlotte and is a very compelling speaker. Temperatures pushing 90 this week.... Am planning an irrigation tomorrow although I am not sure schedule will be 1" at one time...because I haven't had time or desire to do the tuna fish can test.

Nothing wrong with non university sites. Thanks for sharing the reading material.

Becky, I would like to focus you toward the use of proteins as it relates to your topic. Effectively an in-soil composting method, resulting in very slow release. Ridgerunners link about glomulin is on point, but that work is also highly focused, cutting edge study that has yet to be digested enough for me to use the information in a general way. I guess a good way to say it is that the ideas are important as one would view a laboratory discovery, but the products have not really had time to work their way into the market. In the case of glomulin, all I can say is protein is good. Where to get it, like the soybean meal I special order from the feed coop, or exactly which plants or purpose I need to put it to are mysterious to me. Tne other small point, about the myco, and that verbage being found in the research post where you pointed to myco as being attached to the roots made me think about something I learned. There are 2 groups of fungi, inside and outside the plant. Endo and Ecto. Inside, outside. Water transport to the root area of my Boreal fescue is not coming from the endomorphic fungi that Boreal naturally exists with and that even fully lives inside of the grass, but instead comes from the ectomorphic fungi. By cultivating with high protein, instead of carbohydrates, fungi are enhanced, deep moisture can then be pulled up and a dry surface maintained which inhibites mold growth. This grass grows under my trees in deep shade where insufficient light has killed away all the Burmuda, Centipede and St Augustine. It most definitely makes the soil surface spongy. As we head into the deep southern summer of the lower transitional zone here at my house, root survival in the deep dry shade area where my creeping red fescue grows will be the only really interesting thing going on in the yard, and while the neighbors will see me looking at the grass, my thoughts will actually be turned toward extending ectomycorrhizal hyphae as deeply as possible.

Trickyputt, thanks for the information. I think we all need to appreciate our fungi and how to encourage them. Do you have suggestions for tarheelsol about his cottonseed meal and alfalfa? How long does it take your soybean meal to start providing nutrients? How long would you estimate that an application lasts? Soil temperature and moisture surely make a difference in how quickly things happen. When do you apply your soybean meal and how much do you use? I'm glad you have luck with the creeping red fescue. I have some in my front yard near the neighbor who has nothing but weeds and creeping red and I try to dig it out. It greens up in October and goes dormant in early April and is brown from then on. Maybe you have a good variety of creeping red.

Lotsa questions so here is 1x1.

Do you have suggestions for tarheelsol about his cottonseed meal and alfalfa?

-Meals are all hot greens for composting. I am aware of salt in the feed bags, but the meals are mostly pre combination so my thing is just protein content. The bugs make their little bodies out of the amino acids in the proteins. I pay 15 dollars for a 50# bag of sbm which is 47% protein, roughly 15/25 or .60c per pound.

How long does it take your soybean meal to start providing nutrients?

-Not long, maybe 2 weeks when it is spring, but after the first application there is always some there as other applications come along.

How long would you estimate that an application lasts?

-Many months. Its a slow release like N4 type fertilizers and seasonal moisture and temp play their part in decomposition. It seems the idea of 6.25 divided into the protein is an average. Soya has a more accurate number, 5.7, so to get 1 lb per K quite a bit gets put out. Its like milorganite in this regard, with lots of organic matter, but lower metals.

Soil temperature and moisture surely make a difference in how quickly things happen.

-Yes, this soil type is called ultisol. The subtypes are described further by weather in that region. In humid areas like where I live, the ultisol subtype is called udult. Really weird names to describe a leached out clay soil that gets more acidic and leached out the more rain falls on it. Lots of dolomitic lime apllied around here., and everything likes to grow on top which is where natural om is found. The lawn will eat vast quantities of om across the summer with the heat and humidity. Here is a cool link where you can find your soil type. Just keep zooming in. http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=0edea1c7bbb84ba5842d20483af11679

When do you apply soybean meal and how much do you use?

-I ride the weather on this question. I basically avoid June July and August. The grass can be 125f in June so the main thing then is just water. I put out 500lbs at a time. Spreader set on 2/3. I have about 25k square feet in the lawn.

I'm glad you have luck with the creeping red fescue. I have some in my front yard near the neighbor who has nothing but weeds and creeping red and I try to dig it out. It greens up in October and goes dormant in early April and is brown from then on. Maybe you have a good variety of creeping red.

- I bought Rubra Rubra from Seedland. They described some other types, but this one seemed to be ok for my purpose. Then I found out they have a more shade accepting hybrid. I don't like the fact that it hates 90f plus temps or that armyworms from moths make me spray insecticide. I think the long hair kind looks cool, but it can mat and be hard to cut. Here is a link to some pics of the problem area I am filling in. None of the trees were here when we moved in 20 years ago, so it got worse and worse. I hired a lawn service and they killed what weeds I had, leaving dirt. The shade just gets deeper over summer.

Boreal Fescue Deep Dry Shade https://imgur.com/gallery/LM4kw

Nice looking grass! And in Alabama I'm sure you appreciate having all that shade. We have a large maple in the front but took down the silver maple in the back in 2012 (limbs were cracking and we didn't trust the tree not to fall on things) and the replacement tree doesn't provide much shade yet. So you apply soybean meal in spring (how early?). You skip the summer. When do you apply it again? Is the creeping red just for the shady areas? What do you have in the sunny areas? I am wondering why cottonseed meal would take months to provide nutrients, if that is indeed true. It would decompose just like other grains, wouldn't it? I have just read this article on organic nitrogen. I have assumed that the nitrogen being held organically would be available when it got into the soil solution in inorganic form. This is suggesting something different. I don't know if I trust this source as they have an agenda but the author seems to know biology. I would like to know more about the process of nutrient uptake.

Thank you. If anybody notices the barren spot to the left on the second pic, a delivery of earthen materials resulted in a 16 ton dump truck getting sunk up to its motor. Good ol red clay when wet, they had turned around there twice the prior week and then it rained. We had a pile of sand next to the hole and scraped into the muckhole. Regrowing a topsoil has been enlightening, and the biochar I put in that area has shown amazing effect.

Back to the 1x1.

So you apply soybean meal in spring (how early?). You skip the summer. When do you apply it again?

- Three questions united by soil temperature rather than air temperature. 50 degrees is a soil growth number I use going into and out of growth seasons.

Is the creeping red just for the shady areas?

- Yes, cool season grass only survives here in the lower transitional zone if it is in heavy shade.

What do you have in the sunny areas?

- Burmuda primarily, but bahia is a low maintenance drought loving grass that I have been seeding. It was here when we came, and I cleansed it out, and have come to realize dont do that.

I am wondering why cottonseed meal would take months to provide nutrients, if that is indeed true. It would decompose just like other grains, wouldn't it?

- Yes. Oxygen and water are incredibly destructive. Perhaps it has a coating that retards one, or the other to stymie oxidation, or, your data sources are not multiple enough to give you the accurate median.

I have just read this article on organic nitrogen. I have assumed that the nitrogen being held organically would be available when it got into the soil solution in inorganic form. This is suggesting something different. I don't know if I trust this source as they have an agenda but the author seems to know biology. I would like to know more about the process of nutrient uptake.

- It is suprisingly simple. Biochar lasts so long in the soil because it is carbon in a very oxidized form. In other words, there is nothing added any longer. Besides reminding me of the IRS, it reminds me that we do not take in direct nutrients. And we are Carbon based life forms. A lot is going on around the carbon in my body. We assemble the decomposed particles after composting in our stomachs breaks them apart. That need to break apart is beyond my pay scale, but I know when it happens in a nuclear power plant then energy is released. Perhaps you are bumping up against the very sources of the power of life. I miss Carl Sagan, because I know he could tell me how to grow this grass.

Friendly reminder that lawn care is only as complicated as you make it. With proper care $10 worth of fertilizer a month through spring and $10 worth of fungicide a month through summer will get you a showcase lawn. Sit back and enjoy it. If no fertilizer and symbiotic fungi were the way to go, the best lawns would be on the sides of every freeway.

'Look at the Big Brain on Trickyputt! " Sorry, can't stop with my insane 80's., in this case 90's (Pulp Fiction) reference. Becky, I really hope you are a science professor in Richmond. If not, you have missed your calling, girl. You pull up articles faster than Annie Oakley shoots a pistol in the Wild, Wild West.

LoL yeH. Gotta admit though..Becky makes a good interviewer. Maybe she should be on a tv channel.

Yes, how did grass ever survive without someone putting something on it? A lawn of a single kind of grass is not really a natural thing. At our river house, we have two acres of mowed weeds and various grasses (my husband does the mowing there). They are never fertilized, seeded, or watered. Never. My husband teases me because I work hard on the lawn here (seeding, watering, pulling weeds, pre-emergent, fertilizer, etc.) and yet in August, he has the thick, green lawn and my fussed over tttf is barely hanging on and needs to be overseeded. There really is nothing wrong with mowed weeds. But it is nice to have "good grass."

A lawn of a single kind of grass is not really a natural thing.

Indeed. In a way, human kind is like a lawn. We do our best to boost our immune system, eat well, stay healthy - and there's great value in all that - but without the vaccines and antibiotics 9 out of 10 of us wouldn't be here.

Trickyputt, if you're still reading, I do want to know what months you apply the soy. And what other grass you may be caring for. Fine fescue needs even less nitrogen than tttf, so I am interested in how your fertilization practices works out for the kinds of grass you have. Did you ever do synthetic fertiizer? If so, how do your results with soy compare?

The yard has a mild eastward facing slope with a high point opposite the driveway entrance that drains first and the clay bakes hard. Without rain or organic matter, and lime, the summer sun will sterilize that area and nothing will grow. In this area I prefer bahia. I have tried burmuda, and it thinned which is an outstanding statement of heat. The bahia is a tropical to sub tropical grass that is extremely drought resistant.

Since the government has learned how to sell us water, I try to not spend more than necessary, which I can easily do since the property also has an agricultural water meter. In the middle of the yard I have a pure stand of bermuda. It survives well with a flat to bowl slope and a little more moisture.

The shade area is pretty much all new CRF. I have lost every other grass so far. The cycle upcoming after the heat of the summer will look like the following:

When the temps get back down to 80 and are headed lower, core aeration and the application of 2 yards of rice grain sized medium grind charcoal, overseeding the respective areas and the spraying of Jobes organic liquid fertilizer for roots.

In November, when the winter rains start, 500 lbs of SBM. (edit here to point out this is for 25,000 square feet, so 1.6lbN/1000 with a 47%protein content using the 5.7 soya factor)

In the late spring, about 2 weeks after the plants pop and full emergence has occurred, and the ground is headed back up to 50 degrees, 500 lbs of SBM and some Sulphate of Potassium. This is usually April, as a lot of planting is done on Easter weekend here.

In summer I spot spray weak liquid general purpose here and there as needed to encourage slow areas. I will also use a liquid all purpose like miracle grow. The ready availability is what I am after.

I will run a soil test next summer after the charcoal settles in a while. Usually I wait until it needs me to water a little in the dry time and I will crush some multivitamins and spray them about, not just for the grass. Plants produce B12 even though they do not use it themselves as near as anybody I have read knows. I have come to recognize that I suspect the plants are calling for worms and bacteria eating creatures to come for the B12. I have been working on the worm population in the lawn. Dry hard hot clay runs them off, and the lawn eats OM to the point that the drops that I chip, mulch and compost are not enough. Thus the biochar idea, which should improve things in a more permanent way and reduce the need for inputs.

In short, it is all about the heat and moisture. There will not be a timely breakdown of a meal application if it is the dry time when the plants and trees are going to seed. The big breaks are the beginning rain in Nov and 6 months later in April with the beginning of the warm season. I usually let everything reproduce at least once in early spring and late in the summer and early fall when it is very dry. Allowing the grass to grow also lets them hold moisture late in the dry season. I let them grow full, feed the roots and put them to bed for the fall with a last cutting that looks good until spring. The fescue will make me cut in winter though, as we do not get very cold here.

And your last question, about comparision? There is no comparing the better effects of the protein and om of meal on the clay and therefore the grass. It never has been about the grass generally, but then the problems I have been pursueing have beens so soil based I never even thought of running a side by side test. Like they say, N is N. You might detect a soil based thesis somewhere in all these words. Thats where the huge differences have been occuring, and the resultant moisture content, oxygenation and improved biota have begun to speak to that effect.

Thanks! That's quite a regimen! And you're doing warm season (two kinds) and cool season in separate areas. Twice a year grain drops plus extra synthetic as needed for the warm season grass in summer. And other stuff too! Sounds like all is going well. I never thought about letting grass grow as tall as it might in the fall before a last cut. Hope the earthworms are making a home in your soil. Thanks for such a thorough explanation of how you do things things and why.

Well thank you back, because I have never attempted to describe what I am doing to myself much less someone else. The last cut is when the roots have taken everything down from the upper plant, so the roots have as much sugar as they can get. Plus if it is a seeder, Seeds will be spread.

Your post last night is only now showing up online (at least for me). You had answered my questions then, I still appreciate the greater detail this morning.

Bringing this back to the original question of best practice for spring fertilization of cool season grass in the transition zone, here's where I am now. For well established grass, if you did a late season fertilization (fast release synthetic after grass stopped growing, before ground freezes), you likely don't need nitrogen in early spring. If you have well established tttf or fine fescue, you can likely skip nitrogen until early fall. However, if the grass shows signs of nitrogen deficiency, give it a very light application (¼-½ lb/k) of nitrogen (organic or synthetic, but probably synthetic since you will get a faster response to solve a problem) and see if that is enough. If not, do a little bit more. We are trying to solve the nitrogen deficiency with as little fertilizer as possible to prevent exacerbation of fungal problems in our hot, humid late spring and summer. Also in hot weather, fescue does not want to grow and we shouldn't force growth. Fescue needs 2-3 lb/k of nitrogen a year. Most should be in the fall, and all of it can be in the fall.

For well established KBG, the grass will need some nitrogen at some point in the spring. The general advice is to wait until the end of May or first of June when the spring growth spurt is slowing down. Fertilizer then will replenish nutrients. The problem with that advice in the transitional zone is fungus, as May/June is when fungal problems develop and nitrogen exacerbates them. The problem with early spring fertilizer is that it can promote excessive shoot growth at the expense of the roots. There is no really good time for it in the spring, so I propose a trickle all spring long. You get trickles with organic fertilizer or a low rate of a slow release synthetic. KBG needs 3-4 lb/k of nitrogen a year. Most should be in the fall.

Now for those with grass planted the previous fall, which will include most of us with tttf: the roots are small and can only take in small amounts of nutrients. The late fall fertilization, if we did it, left only a small reserve in the roots. We should fertilize in early spring, but only with small amounts. The roots are still small. So a trickle all spring would be good. I propose an organic feeding in early spring, ideally grains (Milorganite still has a fast release component). Or for those opposed to organic feeding, a low rate of slow release synthetic.

As for summer, only fertilize if necessary (nitrogen deficiency), with as little as possible.

As for what I will do for my tttf, if I have to overseed this fall (it seems to be necessary every year), I will do cracked corn or cornmeal in the spring, maybe 10 lb/k in March and 10 lb/k in May. If I don't have to overseed, no nitrogen in the spring or summer, unless I notice a deficiency.

I think your assessment is correct and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

There's a way out of the spring nitrogen - shoot growth dilemma, and that is growth regulator. It allows you to fertilize while keeping mowing down and pushing that growth energy into roots and tillers, which is a good thing. It also helps a lot with drought resistance. It also helps with color. It also increases the chance for fungus issues because of the increased density and slow growth, so fungicides are a must. In other words, for highly maintained high quality lawns there are options but it takes a commitment of both time and money. For 98% of folks, your recommendations are spot on.

I agree also. An overlay of the natural fertilization process over Beckys recommendation fits hand in glove. Leaf drop in fall combined with rains wash an initial rush of nutrients followed by slow cool weather decomposition, which in turn is followed by a speeded up composting as warm weather returns, resulting in a slow feed across the year until later in the fall when dryness slows the process as well as the materials themselves having been consumed over the year in a slow trickle. Storms add materials here and there.

tarheelsol asked me to look at this topic. OMG! There's an hour I can never get back. In the end I don't think I know any more than before, but some things have been confirmed. What we know is that universities disagree with each other and disagree with experiential evidence from real people. I agree that using osmosis is the wrong term. Chemical salt fertilizers are forced into the roots by an imbalance in the salt balance. What's that called in the chemistry world? It's not partial pressure is it? We also know that that 3rd party lawn forum is still hanging on. We know that KBG needs more N than fescue. For those of us active an a couple different forums know that several years ago morph tried to overdose with organic fertilizer by applying 1,500 pounds per 1,000 of soybean meal and Milorganite over the course of a season. We also might remember I did something similar with St Augustine applying 200 pounds per 1,000 of corn gluten meal. Results were similar in that we had the most lush stands of grass ever. I am not aware that anyone has tried something like that with fescue. It may be important that neither morph nor I are in the transition zone.

Let's look at applying fertilizer in the early spring as the grass is awakening. The grass is going to do well anyway, so it may be hard to differentiate between the effect of fertilizer. The worst thing that can happen is the grass plants deplete their stores of carbohydrates early and suffer a fairly serious decline heading into summer. Does that happen with all grasses in all zones? I don't think it happens with bermuda. I may have seen it when I was converting to organics. I applied fertilizer on Washington's Birthday and it really needed it badly by May. If that is the worst thing then it seems the solution would be to boost fertilizer more toward the middle of spring and before the summer fear of disease hits you.

What's the worst thing that can happen if you fertilize in late spring (Memorial Day)? The fear is that you can get a disease from the late application of nitrogen. That's what the universities say (citation needed - not really, this isn't Wikipedia and I don't care). But what is happening in the real world? How much disease really happens from late spring fertilizer in the transition zone? Does it matter what (northern) grass you have? Does the type of fertilizer matter? Does the amount matter? Who wants to grab one of these questions and run with it? Anyone with fescue in the transition zone willing to use an organic fertilizer on a monthly basis?

Thanks tarheelsol. This really was more interesting than I thought it would be.

Whew.

I'm left with two questions:

Who am I? and Why am I here?

Thank you dchall! Per your direction, I actually have been using organics monthly and I was going to put down some more cottonseed meal until Professor B. went into berserko overdrive on nitrogen/fungus research. I have quite a bit of poa annua in my front yard that is now dying off. I am raking it up in hopes of improving air circulation. If I end up with fallow patches, my thought is to overlay with compost topped by either soil conditioner (tiny pine bark shavings) or Turfface. One advantage to raking, is I can spot common bermuda and paint it with round up before it can get a firm footing. I really like how Milorganite makes my fescue look but I am not putting down a preventative fungicide, so I am not going to chance it. I was planning on using the corn meal for beneficial fungi but I haven't been able to find it. So, I am going to follow Becky and leave well enough alone for now. Thanks for taking the time to respond. And yes, j4c11, :) I am planning on putting down Prodiamine in August (@ 2 mo rate) and seeding in mid- October or mid-February as back-up....in an effort to reduce the poa annua infestation. Time to focus on the vegetable garden.

For the transitional zone, brown patch on tttf and whatever KBG might get (brown patch? summer patch?) is a very real problem. A couple of years ago I went by "wait until the late spring" advice and put down Milorganite right before Memorial Day. Grass had been doing fine all spring. By the end of June, it was all wiped out by brown patch. I blame the Milorganite. I have been wary of nitrogen ever since, even organic nitrogen. I am not going to use fungicide, not as a preventative, not a curative. Fungi are too important to go around killing indiscriminately. I just have to do my best to prevent brown patch. Corn has helped in past years. Serenade helped too last year and this year I'm using both. As for early spring fertilizer depleting carbohydrates from the roots, I think it's a matter of balance. It's when nitrogen pushes excessive growth that there's a problem. If there is enough nitrogen to be sufficient but not more than the plant needs, the roots should be fine. That'a why I suggest a trickle all through spring for KBG, which needs more nitrogen than fescue, and for new grass that may not have enough because it's small. An early spring application of organics may sit there a while because the soil is cold but it will be in place when the microbes wake up and get to work. I am still impressed with the advice of John from SC (ATY posting): fescue needs to go into summer "lean and mean." He's got something there. If we coddle our grass throwing on tons of nutrients, they are going to get lazy. The mycorrhizae get busy when there is mild nutrient or water distress. I want more mycorrhizae!

Lol -due to confusing dchall I edited my previous post to illustrate 500lbs on 25000 feet, a rate of 1.6lbsN/1000 using the soya protein to N factor of 5.7 instead of the average 6.25.

Preface: I'm not sure who I feel more sorry for, the people down south who can only grow forms of weed because they can't grow real grass or the people in the transition zone who struggle to grow either southern weed or northern real grass. The implication is that people in the transition zone have a choice and can grow either. The more accurate statement would be that people in the transition zone can't really grow either well.

Despite the creation of elite (or otherwise) cool season grasses, they are still cool season grasses, ideally suited for the temperate zone and its climate. It goes without saying that cool season grasses thrive in its natural temperate zone climate and accepts nitrogen application abuse to almost any extent. However, should Mother Nature decide to twist the Jet Stream and send us a dose of transition zone hot and steamy, it's a sure thing that disease will rear it's ugly head.Whether a pre-emptive reduction in N would protect us from disease is hard to say, as we in the North prefer the aesthetic over the occasional fungal strike preventative.

A two minute egg at sea level isn't a two minute egg on top of Everest. As dchall has implied, university studies and conclusions made about fertilization of cool season grasses in their natural environment in Wisconson and Michigan are probably not very useful for cool season grasses in the transition zone. So do throw the baby out with the bath and start from scratch, which appears to be Becky's approach here and I agree. Studies do seem to indicate a greater incidence of disease in higher N fed cool season turf when hot and humid conditions occur. So N adjustment does appear to be a good place to start. However, looking for an answer in N source (organic or synthetic) is a red hearing IMO.

I am not going to use fungicide, not as a preventative, not a curative. Fungi are too important to go around killing indiscriminately.

If fungus is at the top of your priority list and you're willing to sacrifice your grass for it then you're in the business of fungus care, not lawn care. I don't mean that in an unkind way - there's nothing wrong with that, I'm into fungus care too.

The fungi are more important. They increase the ability to forage for nutrients and water by 100-1000 times. Fungicides will greatly reduce them, leaving the grass more vulnerable to drought. Brown patch often affects just sections of a lawn (the time I used Milorganite in May was the worse attack, other years it was here and there). Should I save some to put the whole at risk? Brown patch is a battle but 95+ hot sun day after day, weeks on end sometimes, in July and August is a greater battle. I want all the water absorption I can get and those fungi are my ally.

Little NC Buddy, are you at Friday afternoon Happy Hour?! What the heck are we looking at on your ductwork? I was hoping to get a "Hallelujah High Five" on my Uncle re Poa Annua and pre-emergent. See...I have been paying attention. You can't ruffle Professor B. She has seen far worse antics than yours. :)

Foliar fungicides don't affect mycorrhizae. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

The problem in the summer is not water absorption, it's lack of water. Once the water is gone from the root zone it's gone, and there's nothing mycorrhizae can do about it. You're still going to have to water.

@tarheelsol

Pleurotus Ostreatus (Oyster Mushroom) mycelium on cardboard.

Perhaps I have been at Happy Hour? I don't dispute need to water. I give up and quote wise Ridgerunner, "Who am I? Why am I here?"

You are here to learn that ectomorphic semi-plants have roots that can draw water from the depths. Ridgerunner has a need for weed, I agree.

The point is, sometimes we can't see the forest because of the trees. If you water once a week July and August , that's 9 waterings. If you water infrequent, you might get away with 6. Let's say the mycorrhizae saves you a watering or two by extending drought resistance slightly. I don't think it's worth subjecting the grass to fungus to save $10 worth of water. You have 9 months starting September to grow all the mycorrhizae you want but when summer hits, you do what you have to do. That's just me.

You are here to learn that ectomorphic semi-plants have roots that can draw water from the depths.

I'd like to learn more about that. Do you have some information that quantifies that claim (e.g. mycorrhizae plants last X days longer than non-mycorrhizae plants)? I see grass on the side of the freeway - which should be loaded with mycorrhizae - and it's crisp in June, so I'm skeptical.

Heritage is a systemic fungicide. I'm not going to research fungicides but I imagine most that you would be using would be systemic. A fungicide that was foliar only would not give much protection, especially if it's being mowed off and washed off by rain. Of course we should water when it is needed. The mycorrhizae enable the plant to more efficiently use what's available. It's like root extensions: the plant can get it from more places than just what happens to be right by the root.

The mycorrhizae enable the plant to more efficiently use what's available. It's like root extensions: the plant can get it from more places than just what happens to be right by the root.

Sure. The question is, what is the real life effect of that? The plant lasts 10% longer? 20%? You get 5 days instead of 4? And what does that amount to? It needs to be quantified. You save 2-3 waterings across the span of the entire summer, maybe? It doesn't pass muster to me as far as cost (no fungicide, risk of turf loss) vs benefit (skipping a couple of waterings).

Suit yourself. I made my choice. On those hot days I want my roots to have as much access to the water down there as possible. There's a lot of evaporation going on.

I think you have a real opportunity to do some real science. Mark out a 10x10 on your lawn and spray Bayer Fungus Control (propiconazole) every 14 days through summer. A single bottle should get you through the whole summer. If there's significant differences in drought tolerance in the fungus control plot vs the surroundings it should quickly become evident, and would be big news for everyone in the transition zone.

I'm siding with Becky. Go, Girl Power.

Sorry, but not the least bit interested in your experiment. I don't think it would prove anything anyway.

Lol THE END.

There was another post, something with a dirty forum but it went missing.

aaaAGgghhhbh! no more!

Lol