Most joint bank accounts are "joint with right of survivorship", therefore no need to go through probate. The other signer has immediate and full access to all funds.

from a former longtime banker............:-))

It will depend if you are dealing with a death or illness. Some states and certain banks will freeze the assets until the death certificate is presented. Some banks will require the joint accounts to be switched to your name others do not. Legally they are not supposed to do this but they do it anyway.

However I will use us as an example. We had everything in joint or at least with signing provisions. Had made arrangements for POA for my husband who was developing dementia. Short form of story he developed an infection before signing the POA. I had to be appointed as his conservator. A separate account had to be set up to pay his bills out of. Between the time he became ill and the time it was obvious that he was not going to recover I set up a separate account for myself using the same amount of money as I later used to set his up with based on the documents on our local court's website. Both of our money now must be kept separate. Once the conservatorship was approved by the judge other than setting up his account I am limited as to what I can do with the joint accounts. Ironically we had been advised to set the accounts up as joint for estate reasons. The first year is over and the records will be presented to the court in a couple of weeks. Then I will know what if anything I did wrong.

You did not mention things like pensions, life insurance etc. for those you will need death certificates and if married probably a copy of your marriage license.

IRAs, pensions, life insurance all set up to go to survivor. We have money

market funds which I'm not sure about. Person at Vanguard saying money

market, if in joint account would need to be probated, when one of us dies.

recommended we divide and have separate accounts.

thanks for any help.

It also depends on how the how the account is titled. We hold a joint account that is with rights of survivorship. I would ask the attorney who drew up your wills to advise you. It does vary a lot from state to state.

If the account is joint it should not be mentioned in the will in most states as the joint designation takes it out of the hands of the deceased the minute the doctor signs the death certificate.

I would also ask if there is a beneficiary designated. If there is there is no need to probate. You may need to look through your documentation to see if you have a copy. Problem with beneficiary designations is that many were on paper that never got converted to electronic. Supposedly those are kept on file but many places destroy paper files after a certain number of years. Both of our pensions online show no beneficiary designation but I have the paperwork showing the designation for both of us.

In this state the spouse is the first in line when someone dies and it does not go through probate. It is not that way in all states. This one added a wrinkle for those without a will and property is not listed as joint. At one time if children were minors half of any non-joint property was set aside for there use. If over 21 it all went to the spouse. Currently non-joint property such as the checking account I set up to pay my husband's bills must be divided 50/50 no matter what the age of the children.

We have a money market at our bank and I asked my attorney a week ago and at that time was told that the stuff in the joint accounts would not go to the estate. Next week when I do the year end stuff I will need to ask about if the court would have to order the release of the funds to me. Banks and Brokerage firms work under different laws.

I looked and saw where you supposedly live in Alabama. I could not find anything in the statues other than where homicide was an issue about joint accounts. If you still live in that state you or other may find their probate rules interesting or perhaps you can find something concerning joint accounts in all of the verbiage. http://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2006/30792/130738.html

According to this joint accounts go to the other person named without going through probate. However like all things on the web be cautious believing what it states. I would hate to be a spouse in Alabama without a will. https://www.legalconsumer.com/inheritancelaw/topic.php?TopicID=20&ST=AL

Bank accounts are governed by banking regulations and that should be the same regardless of what state one resides in. These are federal regulations, not state regulations. A joint account with right of survivorship - which most joint bank accounts are - are not "personal" property. They are joint property and are therefore outside the terms of any will or subject to probate.

After my father died and my mother became elderly and infirm, we switched her accounts into joint accounts with me as cosigner. I was also the executor of her estate and was named under her durable POA. When she passed, the funds in her accounts became mine and were considered outside her estate. There is no freezing of accounts and no requiring of death certificates for this to happen and that is intentional, so funds are immediately available to the survivor/cosigner - usually the spouse - for any necessary living expenses and funeral costs.

Legally, as cosigner to the joint account, all the monies it contained were mine and I could do with it as I wished (confirmed by our probate attorney.........much to my brother's dismay). However, morally/ethically, I considered these funds rightfully part of my mother's estate and after paying off her final expenses and all other estate bills, the monies in this account were divided up equally between myself and my two siblings as equal beneficiaries under her will.

This is for bank accounts only - retirement, investment and 401K accounts are subject to different regulations depending on the institution that holds them and the terms of any beneficiary designations. They may or may not be considered under probate.

Gardengal, a money market through a brokerage firm, Vanguard, as you said is under different regulations. I hope once the OP finds out they will return and state what they found out.

My Joint Money Market Account at Vanguard goes to my wife directly the day I die... no probate involved with a Joint Account with right of Survivorship.

Gardengal nailed the answer.

Some got off on a tangent about Death Certificates. The OP did not ask about Death Certificates, but rather about the need to probate monies in Joint Accounts.

Saltidog Death Certificates are not a tangent even with joint accounts. Ask your person at Vanguard what your wife would need to provide to remove the other name from the account if and when you or she dies. You are correct about no probate but not about the death certificates. Make the call and save you and your wife some possible headaches later depending on whose SSN the 1099's are issued under. After a certain time IRS will want those in the living spouses SSN.

"Bank accounts are governed by banking regulations and that should be the same regardless of what state one resides in. These are federal regulations, not state regulations. "

This is incorrect on several scores.

Property laws vary by state, and what exactly any particular title alternative means and doesn't mean, or is used or not used, will vary by state. For instance, I was married and have lived in a community property state. If I had an account with just my name on it, it nevertheless is one half mine and one half my wife's. Were I to die with such an account in existence, there's a process to give her access to her half of that account that has nothing at all to do with banking regulations, other than the fact that the bank is obligated to honor legally valid documents presented to it.

As far as regulation is concerned, there are state chartered banks as well as nationally chartered banks. State chartered banks are subject to the rules and regulation of and by their state's law and not the national banking regulatory agencies.

"You are correct about no probate but not about the death certificates."

I never suggested anything about death certs. I only pointed out that the OP did not ask about Death Certs, only about whether probate was involved in Joint Accounts - it is not.

It might have been your business but several of your comments are wrong, including among the newest ones. Were you an executive or in management at a central or regional HQ (that's where "bankers"are) or did you work in a branch (typically no "bankers" there) ?

Just quickly -

- I believe many state chartered banks in my state (California) are not part of the Federal Reserve system. They form under state law EXPRESSLY to avoid federal regulation and oversight. There would be little reason to do so otherwise. But you're a banker, you surely know that?

- Your explanations of joint tenancy above are facile and ignore the many nuances of state law. For example, go back to the account I described before with an account opened with community funds that has only my name in the title. Without my wife's written acknowledgement and agreement, I re title the account (or withdraw the funds and open another account) as a joint tenancy with rights of survivorship account with a woman my wife doesn't know. Then I die.

Guess what? That account is still community property, half of it is/was mine, half of it belongs to my wife, and the woman I wished to benefit has nothing. Perhaps she may have an argument that she's entitled to my one-half interest but because the whole structure is flawed, that may not be successful. The moral of this story is, community property trumps the form of title (if in conflict) and you can't give away something that isn't yours under state law, no matter how title is written.

-

Not all states are community property states to that tosses that argument.

That's right, maifleur. What started my comments on this track was the following incorrect comment that gardengal made:

"Bank accounts are governed by banking regulations and that should be the same regardless of what state one resides in. "

Semantics, see the "should"? They should be but because each state likes to prevent federal control of things they are not. One of the things about websites they can allow people to state what their state does so that others are aware of the differences. Even within states especially the court systems there are differences. Some counties in my state I would not have needed an attorney to file for guardianship of my husband. In the county I live in I do. I also know that unless there is a major mistake in this county unless you want problems with your case you can not dismiss your attorney. You can do it but it makes your life difficult.

How many laws have changed since you opened those accounts? Going by what was the law at some point in time and not current law can cause problems. Reason why wills should be looked at periodically.

JTWROS has a fixed and universal meaning that has not changed. To suggest that local laws might modify that without providing a single specific example is not at all helpful.

Some knowledgeable people have tried above to add value to the requested understanding and have been met with vague and non-specific ad hominem attacks.

maifleur, the community property rules in many states originate from when their regions were part of Mexico (Spain has such rules too) or France, in the case of Louisiana. So as for recent changes, not so much. Interestingly enough, for topics of divorce, alimony, and property splitting, many of the foundation priniciples of community property are now followed in spirit in many separate property states. So the trend of theory of community property has spread outward, rather than separate property views being imported.

To someone lacking more familiarity, it "should be the same" in all states. But it isn't.

salti, I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'll repeat that joint tenancy doesn't have a fixed a universal meaning, especially not in community property states. According to a quick Google search (didn't know the number myself), 10 US states have community property laws. Since one of those is California, it may mean these rules apply to 25% or more of Americans. Not a fringe exception.

Since the other 40 states do not have what is called community property and not all of the community property states have the same laws regarding what is community property each state is a fringe exception. You seem to be stuck in the box where what happens in your state is what happens in others. The OP appears to be from Alabama and if you look, must open each section, what is allowed to a spouse compared to other states is extremely reduced.

I came in in the middle of the conversation. I didn't realize I need to prescreen my comments with you. But different from others, I'm not speculating or guessing about rules in an area I don't have experience working with. As you are.

The best advice to give someone with questions like the OP has is - talk to a CPA, a lawyer, or both.

Keep thinking that differing opinions should not be expressed. Experience in financial field of over 30 years in banks and other areas apparently means nothing if you have made up your mind that you are the only one with the correct opinion.

Long talk with Vanguard today. Was told right of survivorship will work

for us.

Banks accounts are the same.

thanks everyone for your imput. Dh is not well so he is trying to simpilify

and make my life easier in the future.

sorry, didn't mean to start an argument.

again thanks so much.

Best wishes to both of you, Jisephinet. Sorry for the disruption.

Thank you for posting what you found out. Hopefully in reading the posts people will look at their own state laws before a crisis hits. I do have one suggestion have some money on hand in case there is a problem receiving access to the accounts needed to live on. This advice was given to me when my husband first went to the nursing home and he was expected to die from the actual experience of several people both women and men whose spouses have passed away in the last couple of years. For them it made some things easier.

Thank you Elmer.

money on hand and credit cards in my name only.