This is perhaps the best discussion I've found on lawn grasses for SoCal; thanks to DChall and others for the insights and local considerations. Like a earlier commenter, I also live in Simi Valley. Homes in my neighborhood (built 2005/6) had Marathon I or II installed.

Originally from the DC area, I've lived here for about 5 years andI now have a much better understanding of drought (and wind and fires, oh my!). Anyhow, my small lawn looks terrible. I have done nothing for the lawn (left if for the gardner, who does nothing more than cut and blow) and abided by the watering restrictions and whatever lawn I had inherited, it could not survive the water reduction and and lack of attention. There's very little fescue left; it seems a Bermuda has taken majority hold as well variety of weeds and other grass varieties. So I've spent the past few months learning about grasses, turf, and healthy soil.

However, now we are in our cool rainy season and the fescue lawns of some of my neighbors here look terrific. Even my 2 patches of fescue (about 10sq ft, hanging for dear life) look amazing. I really want to fix this lawn. I want the nice appearance but also better drought-tolerance (if that's possible).

I've been wrestling with the logic for choosing a cool season grass for somewhere so hot (zone 9b/10a). Unlike the Southern gulf states, we are nearly bone dry July-Nov - no humidity, no rain. So I think the logic for choosing a cool season grass is that the winters are mild enough to support the growing season which coincides with when it rains here. With a warm season grass, we would have to water during the drought season (and intense heat) which doesn't make use of the winter season rains. Instead, we should (hopefully) only be adding just enough water during the summer to keep it alive. I have had a soil test, started amendments last fall (added elemental sulfur to lower pH, add humid acid, organic matter, and phosphorus). Will test again in a couple months. I've also updated sprinkler system with rotary heads for more efficient water application and drip lines for the trees and bushes. So I'm trying to be water conservative but also build a healthy soil (not favoring artificial lawns as they trap heat and don't do anything for the soil).

My main criteria for the next lawn are drought-tolerance, capable of starting from seed (so I can repair/maintain it by over-seeding), appearance (I do think fescues look best, probably due to my east coast origin), and hopefully not too excessive/demanding in terms of maintenance although I'm committed to some level of maintenance for a healthy lawn. Other factors, the front yard is full sun about 500 sq ft, and is not subjected to wear and tear (consider it decorative).

I'm strongly considering Zoysia, UC Verde (although this one is not avialalbe in seed, only plugs) and a tall fescue or dwarf tall fescue, such as Marathon. However neither the Zoysia (Emerald) nor UC Verde seem ideal due to many mixed reviews, particularly on Zoysia. I've looked at the turf lawn tests published by Univ Cal. and I am now back to thinking that tall fescues are not terrible in their drought tolerance (although zoysia and buffalo are better) and thus might be a somewhat defensible option for this area? I wouldn't water it enough to keep it green all year, just enough to keep it alive until the summer temps drop and the rains arrive.

Curious to hear what others would say and thoughts on Zoysia vs. UC Verde vs. Marathon for this area. I find myself leaning toward Marathon (or some other drought tolerant cool-season grass) based on this logic. I think I could keep the fescue alive albeit dormant during the summer by monitoring the moisture in the soil (ie pull a 6-inch plug approx very month to see if I've added enough water).

edits: revised for clarity updated thinking on drought-tolerance of Marathon fescues (not as good as warm-season grasses, but not terrible either)

I was surprised at how well the Marathon did in that testing. Note that none of the grasses did well. They all had large die-out areas, but the fact that Marathon stayed alive surprised me.

I haven’t seen any mention of centipede grass in this thread. Is that something that would do well in the SoCal environment?

I‘m in Echo Park, not far from Dodger Stadium. My small patch of grass has a southeasterly exposure, So about a third of it is in the shade most of the day. It sounds like you’re a fan of St Augustine for many regions of SoCal. Are there any other varieties that would do well in the shade, but stand up to some very hot and dry days during the summer (with occasional watering)?

Thanks for your expertise!

Kevin, centipede works best in acidic soils and requires full sun. You don't have either.

I had to look back to see if I had posted my watering mantra on this topic. I have not, because most of the people were in areas that did not get too hot. Here's more

Deep and infrequent is the mantra for watering. This mantra was first presented to me by a lawn care professional in Phoenix. It works for him, so it should work for you. Deep watering means 1 inch all at one time. It is best to time your sprinkler system to see how long it takes to fill several cat food or tuna cans placed around the yard. Once you know how long to water, you are ahead of the game. For example my oscillator sprinkler takes 8 full hours to fill the cans on full sweep. My neighbor's high flow in-ground system took 20 minutes. Every hose/sprinkler/water pressure system will be different, so you have to test yours. As for frequency, there are many factors that go into how often to water. The factors are temperature, humidity, wind, shade/sun, soil type, grass type, grass length (related to shade), and possibly some others. The predominant factor is the air temperature, because moisture evaporates faster at high temperatures. But if the air is already saturated with high humidity, then it does not, so the entire equation is difficult to comprehend. A good starting point for frequency is this: at temperatures below 70 degrees F, deep water once per month. At temps between 70 and 80, water once every 3 weeks. At temps from 80 to 90, water once every 2 weeks. At temps from 90 to 100, water once per week. At temps from 100 to 105, water once every 5 days. This should take care of most of SoCal except for the Mojave Desert. The main point is you always deep water and you NEVER water every day.

If you want tall fescue grass and are willing to grow it by seed, then for this area I recommend SS1000 Tall Fescue Blend: https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100003/ss1000-tall-fescue-blend. The four grasses in this blend all ranked high when tested in Riverside, CA, which is in-between LA and Palm Springs and can get very hot. 4th Millennium ranked #1, Regenerate ranked #6, Amity ranked #8, and Raptor III ranked #39 out of 125 grasses. These will be the best cool season fescue grasses to endure the summer heat for this area. http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_18-3/tf12_18-3.pdf see page #33.

If you have shade then get the shade blend: https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100073/ss1002-tall-fescue-shade-blend. In the shade test, Rowdy ranked #1, Titanuim 2LS ranked #2, GTO ranked #5, and Valkyrie LS ranked #15. These grasses also do really well in full sun. http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_18-3/tf12_18-3.pdf see page #45.

If you’re going with sod, these are two local sod suppliers for the area: https://www.agsod.com/ and https://www.westcoastturf.com/.

With sod I would get one of the hybrid Bermuda’s like TifTuf - https://www.agsod.com/sod-varieties/tiftuf/. TifTuf is an all-around great grass. Can even handle some shade. Here is a good video highlighting TifTuf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb4oRryDIA0.

You could also look at Bandera Bermuda that is newer and developed to grow in this region - https://www.westcoastturf.com/Bandera-Bermuda-grass.

Dchall, I’ve been searching the web for sod day and night and couldn’t come to a final answer. But after reading your comments in this thread things make so much more sense now. I’m about 9 miles SE of the 405 /55 interchange (orange up in the hills). Have had a tough time with the tall Fescue that wasn’t in great shape when we moved in. We have a south facing lawn with a birch tree on the North side closer to the house. Because of the house and the birch tree the north part of the yard gets a lot of shade while the south section is in full sun most of the day. So basically 1 Side always seemed wet and the other always dry in the summer. the neighborhood is mostly Fescue and St Augustine. Our summer average high is around 85. I assume the Marathon 1 will take a lot of water and upkeep to stay healthy. Not a huge fan of the St Augustine. Do you have a suggestion for something that can handle the sun and shade? The shade portion I mentioned is about 25% of the yard and gets maybe 4-5hours of sun in the summer, but less in the winter. Most of the warm season grasses I’ve looked at have issues with the shade or id go with a Bermuda. On the cool side, Marathon Original would probably fair much better than Marathon 2 for the shady portion. But the other 75% Will be getting hit hard by the Sun. If St Augustine is my only option then it is what it is. But thought you might have a decent second option. Thanks for all the good content in your past posts. Been helpful.

I have no second choice for a turfgrass in a shady hot area. St Augustine is it. There used to be a zoysia called Shadow Turf, but they don't sell that anymore.

The Southland farms selection guide also lists the Zeon Zoysia as a warm weather sod that works well for shade. I saw you made a comment on it awhile back. Any recent experience with it? I’ve heard some good and bad.

Kurapia should work too. I use St. Augustine and Kurapia in shade. Kurapia uses much less water and is very tolerant of extreme heat. West Coast Turf is a good source and can answer your questions.

Dchall,

Is St. Augustine a good choice for a home in the Inland Empire (Rancho Cucamonga, Fontana) area? Or any other sod recommendations? New yard so no trees yet and plenty of sunshine.

Hector, please start a new topic so I can focus on you and not try to blend in a bunch of other ideas. This topic is 3 years old, so we have to do a lot of wasted reading to get to your issue. When you post the new one, mention your location as you already did and mention that it's new construction. Both are important.

Where do you buy st augustine plugs in socal? Home depot doesnt ship them to CA

SoCal's not very big, is it? If you're in SoCal I'm guessing somewhere between Bakersfield and Calexico - Santa Barbara to Blythe. You'll have to be more specific. And if you say, Los Angeles, or San Diego, I'm gonna smack you again. Please be specific.

@accidentallyinsocal hey! Did you ever end up getting a response to your question? We are in Simi and still too

scared to commit to A grass bc we are holding out for the perfect one :)

Annie have you read this entire topic? It covers everything. What are you waiting for? You are located in a sweet spot for getting any kind of grass you want, with the possible exception of UC Verde. Still I would call all the suppliers on this list and ask them if they carry UC Verde.

Annie if you want to ask about which one is best for YOU, please start a new topic. Pictures of your property help, and be sure to mention Simi in your post.

So here is my fear for YOU. You are going to find the perfect grass and make a big mistake installing it. Please start a new topic with pictures of what you are starting with.

@dchall_san_antonio haha :) I actually emailed with you individually! And I think UC verde is the front runner. But all our neighbors put in fescue and it’s looking like a lush golf course! We starting to dig in a pool in the next month So once that’s all done we will install grass!

Ahh, jeeze! Watch to see what equipment they bring in to build the pool. We had a pool built in Riverside back in the 50s, and the bulldozer destroyed the place. I hate to suggest taking more time, but take a little time to evaluate the damage done to the soil before plugging.

There has been a lot of distinction between warmer eastern areas and western areas of southern California. Most people seem to be at least somewhat east. What about the cool coastal regions? I live in Santa Barbara which is extremely mild and live within walking distance to the ocean. We might have one day a year that creeps into the low 90s, but there is a high heat warning issued. It never freezes or frosts in the winter. Sod for that? I am looking for something that works best with the deep, infrequent watering schedule.

I live in west san fernando valley, where can I buy st augustine plugs? Is it ok to plant them now or should I wait till spring? My backyard has a lot of trees.

Also I understand deep watering is better than frequent shallow watering. What I noticed is after the sprinklers run for 5 min or so the water doesnt really absorb well and just runs off. Should I water for 5 min then wait maybe 30 min and water 5 min again and keep doing this until 1 inch is watered?

Also will st augustine turn brown in the winter in san fernando valley?

Usually not.....especially if ‘Ironite’ is applied at the end of October

HU-847..., sorry I missed your post 17 days ago. You are in the sweetest spot of sweet spots. You can grow anything you want with deep and infrequent watering. The Marathon fescues are good. Kentucky bluegrass is fine. Rye is fine. A mix of the three is fine. Any of the southern grasses (hybrid bermuda, St Augustine, zoysia) are fine.

Bob z, taking your last question first, yes, water for 5 and let it soak in. Better yet, before you water for 5, spray the yard with baby shampoo at a rate of at least 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. The surfactant effect of the shampoo will help the water penetrate more quickly and much more deeply than without the surfactant.

As for buying sod, start calling these nurseries. I would start with the sod farm and ask where they sell the most sod. Those locations will have the freshest sod. I just bought some St Augustine from a nursery in San Antonio that sells 14 pallets of sod every day. (Milberger's Nursery at 1604 and Bulverde Road, for the San Antonians who might be reading this). For your area you should be able to plant now. Water lightly 3x per day for 2 weeks until the sod/plugs become established. Then begin to wean off of the daily watering by watering longer and skipping a day or two. Whether it turns brown entirely depends on the weather and your soil health. One of my neighbors in San Antonio had the only green lawn all year round. Her landscaper applied a very slow acting, feather-based, organic fertilizer every few months. I don't see why that worked so well, but I did see him removing bags of mowed grass all year long.

i live in woodland hills and debating whether to go astroturf, marathon 2 or st augustine. what does everyone recommend?

I recommend you start a new topic and provide details of your situation. Woodland Hills is a good start, but there are more turf choices than you listed. It could be that hybrid bermuda or UC Verde buffalo grass might work best for you. Start your new topic with Woodland Hills and tell us about the shade/sun situation in the yard. Also, are you willing to water in the heat of summer? Do you want the nicest lawn on the block or just want to keep the mud off your shoes? Do you have pets or children? Any athletic events going on on the turf? Do you have a big or small budget? Are you going to mow and fertilize yourself?

As you can see, your lawn is going to be individual to you, so I suggest you start a new topic.

I put in Buffalo grass plugs last Sept., now it is mostly weed and little strings of Buffalo grass. Is it salvageable? Do they sell Buffalo grass sod? Should I start over? I am in Pasadena, CA. Any recommendation?

Jean, I recommend you start a new topic to address your particular issue. Every situation is a little different. When you start the topic, be sure to mention Pasadena and what your shade/sun situation is for the grass in question. Also, if you know what variety of buffalo you plugged, that would be helpful.

KURAPIA is an excellent choice for an evergreen ground cover. They have been testing it at UC Irvine and CalPoly Pomona - DWP/BeWaterWise allow it for turf replacement - it needs watered as little as 1x/week in summer, once established. it is non-invasive, bee/bird/pet friendly.... grows in a variety of soil types. The only thing i have found that some clients get uncomfortable about is the bees with the flowers. This can be greatly reduced with a lite mowing every 3-4 weeks to clip the flowers and thus the attraction for bees.

Personally, I believe that all water sucking grasses should be outlawed in SoCal and anywhere water is scarce. Pets and kids do not REQUIRE grass... but they do WATER. and we live in an area that water is not abundant. Fact.

If you are looking for an alternative to turf - then i think Kurapia is a dynamite choice. ***and it tolerates both sun and shade well!

Kurapia is new to most of us, but once a week watering is normal for lawns...except when you plant the wrong grass (Marathon fescue) in the South.

I’m sorry but “most grass“ is not once a week watering. Most people water their grass at least three times a week.

Now, one could argue that if people watered properly and got those route to the deepest water could be less… But this is not the case and therefore it is affecting our water supply.
We not only live in a land that is very Harold and Haley susceptible to drought… And probably only going to get worse. But we live in a densely populated area demanding large amounts of water for other things. Our landscapes need to support the reality.

dez, it is unfortunate that in SoCal, you are correct. Most people have an inappropriate, cool-season turf grass, Marathon dwarf fescue, and with the heat of SoCal, have to water daily to keep it alive. If they had planted a more appropriate, heat-adapted turf, like hybrid bermuda, St Augustine, or UC Verde buffalo grass, the demand for water in SoCal would be less. As for supply, that's a function of snowfall in the local mountains and in the Rockies supplying the Colorado River.

Marathon grass might work in the mountains above Lake Arrowhead, or on the coast where late night and early morning low fog and clouds are normal, but as soon as you get east of the 405, it's too hot for cool season grasses. The fescue should be replaced with anything besides cool season grass. Warm season grasses are only one alternative. At my house we have killed off 75% of the grass in favor of drought tolerant ground cover. That's another alternative. You probably have many other alternatives to recommend.

hi dchall_san_antonio

What do you think of the kurapia? I live in Encino. I'm looking for drought tolerant grass. They suggested Kurapia and Rhizomatous Tall Fescue (RTF©). Can't find anywhere close home to check them out. What's your opinion regarding these 2 grasses.

Do you have a sod business? In Texas or los angeles?

Thanks so much for your help! Best, Mercedes

In my opinion never use any fescue in California unless you live where it rains more frequently and you don't have to water. If you lived near the beach, within a mile of the beach, you might get away with fescue due to the morning fog.

I've never seen Kurapia in person. It's not a grass, as I understand it, but certainly a legit ground cover. Don't know anything about the care or how much water it really takes.

@HU-602608794 We've been specing it on many projects and have several in. Please contact us if you are interested.

Thanks for your answers!! Last Sunday I went to a greenery and they suggested the BUFFALO GRASS VERDE from UC. Looks like drought tolerant and nice. Have you heard or tried this one?

The bad thing is that right now I have a hole in my garden (there used to be 6 inches of cement that we removed ) and I can't plant till spring. Don't know what to do with the "hole" of 800 sq aprox in the meantime. Any suggestions or ideas? Thanks again!

UC Verde® Buffalograss

I missed a couple questions. I don't have a sod business. I live in San Antonio, but I lived in many places in SoCal (between Hawthorne and Indio) over 30 years. I have a pretty good feel for the issues you face - especially local climates.

UC Verde seems to be excellent for FULL SUN installations. Buffalo grass does not like even a little shade.

Why do you have to wait for spring?

Is the hole from removing a patio? Can you post a picture of the hole?

Hi dchall_san_antonio,

Thanks so much for getting back to me! The area is totally full sun!

At the greenery and other landscaping experts told me that I have to wait till February to put plugs of buffalo grass.

Right now I have this entire space empty. I attach photo. Can't leave it like this till February...

Thanks!

Perfect picture.

I NEVER recommend rototilling, but in this case it might be an opportunity. Rototill with a Skidsteer or Bobcat to ensure the tiller remains at a constant level. If you use a hand operated tiller it will dig deep and bump up leaving an uneven subsurface. After leveling, apply any organic fertilizer at a rate of 15 pounds per 1,000 square feet. I also never recommend compost, but again, an opportunity. Apply about 1 cubic yard in that area. Then roll the soil down to start it settling. Water it lightly to moisten the organic fertilizer and repeat light watering every day or two almost as if you were starting new grass. If there are weed seeds in the soil, some of them will sprout. Don't worry about those, because roots are generally a good thing to have. The idea here is that the soil under the slab has gone, more or less, sterile, and the organic fertilizer will revive the microbes still there. The compost brings in all the microbes the soil needs, and the fertilizer feeds them. By spring, this will be a good soil organically speaking.

In late December you could fill the area with topsoil getting ready for the new grass. You can roll the new topsoil, but don't till it in. Get the topsoil as level as you can get it. Repeat with the organic fertilizer and you could get a soil test of the new soil. It's never perfect. When you get the plugs of UC Verde, the soil should be ready to go.

wow! this is way above my knowledge of gardens haha but I will print this and discuss it with any gardener I might hire. THANKS SO MUCH!

@dchall_san_antonio hi! thank you for sharing so much knowledge with everyone! I live in thousand oaks and am looking to plant st agustine sod. I am wondering if I am able to plant now in the next couple of weeks or do I need to wait until spring? Id prefer to have grass down as soon as possible even if it will immediately go dormant but also want to make sure we arent going to end up with dead grass in the spring by doing so … appreciate your help!!

Im telling you - kurapia is rhe way to go. no other grass will he as low maintainanse or water! if you want more info, call my office. 310.360.3961

Hi Maggie. You should probably look around for a kurapia installation, but in either case, for your area, now is perfect. It should root into the soil fine and use the winter to improve the roots. At the time you install I would put down an organic fertilizer after laying the sod. Roll or tamp the sod down to ensure good sod to soil contact. Then water the sod 3x per day, lightly (5-15 minutes), for 2 weeks. The roots should knit in by then. Butt the sod pieces tightly against each other as you go.

@dchall_san_antonio thank you so much for your help!

Adrienne in Thousand Oaks: Regarding UC Verde Buffalo Grass, we installed it June 2021 so can attest to how it took watering twice a day to establish, then less frequently until we were watering twice a week with good results; I live in Thousand Oaks and were restricted to watering once a week for 15 minutes which was a good soak and it survived the limited watering last summer. When first planted as plugs we had a lot of weeds but it eventually filled in and is very thick. What we don't like is that is it dormant and brown in color from November to March; it has been slowly turning green in the last few weeks now that it is spring. It requires very little mowing, about once a month at most from spring to fall. The only way to buy it in Southern California is from FloraSource Ltd. They ship it as plugs in flats so it is labor intensive to have it installed; cost is twice that of sod.

HU-65...

Thanks for your reply. This forum needs more real world stories about UC Verde. It would be great if you were to either post pictures here or if you were to open a new topic with pictures and restating your experience.

Most warm season grass goes dormant in the winter. For those of us who grew up in the south (including SoCal), it's normal. If you grew up in the north or lived with Marathon fescue, you would be used to year around green grass. But I'm convinced that the daily watering requirement to keep fescue alive in SoCal is one of the many causes of the drought. If more people, like you, had UC Verde instead of Marathon, you'd be in a much better situation.

Regarding the cost of UCV, I can find sod that is twice the price of other sod, so you have to be sure you are comparing UC Verde sod to UC Verde plugs.

Glad to see this thread is alive!

what is the best way to treat nutsedge grass?

Alan,

The easiest way to treat nutgrass is to not water it very often. Nutsedge/nutgrass is a swamp loving plant which thrives on daily watering. Back in the 90s the city came by and replaced our water meters at the street. When they replaced the dirt it immediately grew both bermuda and nutgrass. I didn't do anything to it except put it on my regular watering plan (deep and infrequent). Both the nutgrass and the bermuda went away.

If you want to get rid of it faster, use a sedge killer like Sedgehammer or Image for Nutsedge. Grass killers do not work on sedge plants.

If you have the cousin to nutgrass, green kyllinga, then restricting water does not work. Green kyllinga will thrive with no water for months and months. It is not quite as aggressive as nutgrass but it is equally ugly.

how do i get my hands on Sedgehammer? Seems like i cannot get this delivered in CA

You might need to drive to Havasu City. Call ahead first. Or Las Vegas. Again, call ahead first to see that they carry it.