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goosie8360

x-post Help for a Yellow Sunroom

goosie8360
5 years ago

Cross posting from Paint since it seems color questions get posted both places!


My husband and I painted our southwest facing sun room last fall and our attempt at a soft, buttery yellow is going to get a redo. It looks ok, if strong, during the day with shades up and natural light pouring in, but when we turn on the lights at night or have the shades down (which we often do!) , it is way too strong and has a neony-green look to it. We've tried a multitude of light bulbs and it's helped reduce the green but not enough. The color is Sunflower Seed by Behr. Looking at it now, I don't know how we ever thought it would work. I think when we first started, we thought we wanted a much stronger yellow to replicate a sun room we saw house hunting. However, that house also had bold color throughout. Warm browns and greens - whereas we are doing softer colors like Grey Owl and Rainwashed. So a strong yellow doesn't really "fit", imo.

Here are a couple photos - one during the day with shades closed and lights off. As a note, the adjacent room(s) is now BM Gray Owl which I love. So I would like this yellow to be similarly easy on the eyes. While the room has several windows plus a patio door, it's often closed as my spouse has his computer in there and wants to reduce glare. It probably won't always be that way.

daytime, shades closed

evening, lights on. This is a fairly "kind" photo. To the right of the photo is another solid wall and the two together make for a lot. Eventually we'll have things hung on that walls which would help, but we still think the color is too much, regardless.

Here is a link to how I would like the color to look -

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sH74s6TvORI/T2IKYECjpAI/AAAAAAAABwE/X-C0SUHNqRI/s1600/4926396353_2ddc90f0b5.jpg+kellyraeroberts.com+westonflax.jpg

The other two pictures show colors we are currently considering. From l to r, BM Mushroom Cap, Pale Moon, and Weston Flax. I am concerned that Mushroom is too peach/orange and spouse thinks Pale Moon is too yellow/lacking warmth. We both agree that Weston Flax is too lemony/lacking warmth.

I would love suggestions on other colors (preferably BM as I like how their colors have worked for us thus far) that we could consider. I am thinking of getting a sample of RH Butter as it seems to have good comments. We have a sample of Windham Cream and it is too pale.

Comments (83)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lori, I always feel like I'm getting an upper level education when you post on colors! : )

    You are. lol! :D

    Been hangin' out here since 2004. I know how smart, talented, and color savvy everyone is so an advanced perspective on color is just par for the course.

    Would the abc columns have any similarity to the CMYK system?

    Nope. RGB, sRGB, ProPhoto, HSB, HSL, and CMYK have absolutely nothing to do with how paint colors are conceptualized, made, or perceived. Long story dealing with color models, color spaces, and color systems.

    I would be very interested in if the numbers you've shown are accessible to a layperson as we have other paint colors to pick

    Glidden, The Master Palette, paint chips at The Home Depot. It's right on some of the chips in the display and on every chip in The Master Palette fandeck. The Master Palette notation is hue LRV / Chroma.

    For example, the Margartia chip's notation is outlined in pink. GY green-yellow hue family, LRV 58 and Chroma 375. Having hue family, LRV, and chromaticity right in the color number is so darn handy. I love working with The Master Palette.

    I wrote a blog post about The Master Palette system that explains more.

    The Mater Palette's chroma scale is different it runs 000 to 999. Potato, potahto.

    Dunn-Edwards includes Munsell color notations, hue/value/chroma for each of their colors and the notation is located in the index of The Perfect Palette fandeck.

    and I think it would be very helpful in say, finding a color like gray owl but a bit bluer.

    Bluer, yellower, greener, redder that's not as easy as hue/value/chroma LRV. Those numbers come from raw colorimetric data and that takes some practice and know-how to manage, not like super simple hue families, value, chroma, LRV.

  • allienc
    5 years ago

    Goosie, I haven't painted the bedroom yet but l'll post pix of my stairwell that is painted Popcorn Kernel tomorrow. My laptop charger died and the new cord will arrive tomorrow. I need the laptop to deal with Photobucket! I'm crazy about Popcorn Kernel, BTW.

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  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    JTL, we are SW Antique White sisters!!! I have it in 80% of my house, including the ceilings. It's like being enveloped in French vanilla. It's especially luscious in the afternoon in west-facing rooms.

  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    oh thank you, allie!


    I'm using myperfectcolor.com to try to find the hue/saturation/lightness values for colors we've tried or am interested in. Think it's been helpful to see how and where the colors differ. Hawthorne yellow is nearly identical in value to our current wall color so that's a no! But SW Full Moon is very close to where I think we want to go. Little more intense and yellow hue, but same brightness. The problem I can see is that the hue may be further toward green than we want -just below Weston Flax which just reads a bit green.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    hue/saturation/lightness values

    Okay - we're goin' up a level in color know-how this morning! :) Everybody, ready?

    HSL values are relative to quantities of red, green and blue LIGHT. Like for your TV or computer monitor. They have nothing to do with paint colors and how we perceive their reflection to our eyeballs. If myperfectcolor.com understood those values, they wouldn't include them. But like most resources for paint colors, paint color information they don't have a fat clue what spectral data is nor how to apply it to color for the built environment.

    You're comparing the saturation of beams of light, the hue differences of light, the lightness/brightness values of light - don't want to do that.

    To find chroma values, and more, use easyrgb.com. In this video I walk you through how to find hue family but I also mention "L" which is lightness and "C" which is chroma. Here's the link to download the color wheel in the video if you want it.

    The problem I can see is that the hue may be further toward green than we want

    Further toward green light but not greeness in how it looks to your eyeballs in a three-dimensional room.

    If you can figure out how to plot your color on this color wheel, it will draw a picture for you of where the color "lives" within its hue family. You'll be able to see if it's OVER closer to green-yellow or OVER closer to yellow-red. Plotting color on this color wheel draws you a picture of greener, redder, bluer, yellower. This picture of color tells you about greener, redder, bluer, yellower in terms of OVERTONES.

    goosie8360 thanked Lori A. Sawaya
  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    well, the room was white for the first 18 months we lived here and we're not big home decor people, ha. It'll be two years living here this summer and have.....four things total hung up in the whole house. So it'll probably be a while before those walls are populated with anything! Though my husband would probably jump at the idea of just painting it back to white!

    It's just frustrating the chips that look infinitesimally different on the tiny little chips are hugely different on the wall. Makes it hard to figure out where to go next if you dislike something about the sample you have but don't want a radically different color. I thought picking a gray would be the hardest one for us and that ended up being pretty simple looking back!

    Lori, you're breaking my heart but I see what you are saying.....getting to learn so much more about paint than I thought I'd need! It's good though, as I mentioned we have other rooms to paint so it's useful knowledge. It looks like encycolorpedia has similar information? In that I can find the html color of a known paint sample and plug it into easyrgb to play around with.

    I'm determined to update this to the end though cause it's clear I'm not the only one who has struggled with yellow. And it always frustrated me to read through someone's struggle with the same colors I was considering and then never getting a final update to know how it worked out and what they picked!

  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    Lori, you're a goddess! I just watched your video and so appreciate your wealth of information and willingness to share it with us. It's also nice to hear your voice, which makes you even more real.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    {waving to Linelle} :D

    It looks like encycolorpedia has similar information?

    Noooooooo! Encycolorpedia is crap. They don't actually MEASURE the colors to get the raw spectral data - the real deal color DNA. They use an eyedropper to copy sRGB values from websites and then use colorimetric formulas to transform those values into hue, value, chroma, etc. Not only is that not the way to apply standard colorimetric formulas it's also the wrong color space for paint colors, the RGB color space.

    The purpose of colorimetry is to quantify the human perception of color. RGB values are about quantifying LIGHT not how we physically see and experience color. That's why sRGB, RGB, HSL, HSB, ProPhoto etc. have nothing to do with paint colors, colors we see and experience in real life. All those values are about graphic design and monitor and printer color (more or less).

    I know (via email) the people at easyrgb.com. I know the equipment used to measure (benchtop spectrophotometers), the International Color Standards followed to capture color and that they double-check everything. It's the only online resource I use and trust. It's the only resource I teach in Camp Chroma.

    I can find the html color of a known paint sample and plug it into easyrgb to play around with.

    Nope. You may not. :) HTML values are the same as RGB values just stated in a different format. And, as we all now know, the RGB color space is all about beams of light and the wrong color space for anything to do with paint colors, color in real life.

    .getting to learn so much more about paint than I thought I'd need!

    Spectral data is the new normal for choosing paint colors. Valspar and Sherwin-Williams have already branded the Color Muse. Valspar calls it the Color Wand. Sherwin-Williams calls it SW Color Muse. Those devices do almost everything that a benchtop spectrophotometer does that easyrgb.com uses to measure color.

    So, for $50 or so the consumer can measure color and capture all the data they need to analyze color in not only the psychophysical dimensions of color, hue, value, chroma and LRV, but also colorimetric data like L* = lightness, C = chroma and h° = hue degrees.

    Many Millennials and all of Generation Z will look at all that "undertones" nonsense and laugh about how grandma used to pick paint colors.

  • House Vixen
    5 years ago

    Hi Goosie --

    The quest to get the shade that's in our mind on our wall...think most of us on this forum have been there!

    Couple of things:

    • You've already had lots of folks suggest you prime or cover a big section of walls, but...yellows are the poster colors (ba da dum) for the phrase "intensify when all walls are reflecting off each other." If you could even prime/cover where wall A connects to wall B connects to wall C I think you'd be better off when evaluating.
    • One thing I haven't seen discussed (unless I missed it) is that your floors look like they have a fair amount of golden/orange tones. I think they might be reflecting too. You might try covering your floors, then uncovering, to see if they influence your read of colors.

    That said, I wondered if I could ask you to take a step back now that you've been testing and getting into the technical side a bit thanks to Lori's awesome tutorials.

    I've seen your lovely inspiration photo, and I've also seen all the lovely paint jobs GWebbers have done and shared here and in the other "yellow" threads. I wouldn't want you to get too hung up on a yellow being a little too green or orange or pale (and keep in mind I think your "too pale" shades are gonna seem a lot more intense when the room's done!).

    So some Qs....

    • What's the overall feel you all want in this room -- soothing? lively? warm? welcoming?
    • I know it's a sunroom, but what time of day do you want it to look its best -- am or pm?
    • In general, what's the sky and land look like in your neck of the woods during fall/winter and spring/summer? Deep blue, icy white, or very grey? In my area, colors not only look different during sunny and grey days, they also pick up new tones

    I have a couple of paint color things for you to consider, too -- I'll post separately since this is a novel -- but I was really curious about the stuff above.

  • House Vixen
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Ok, me again. Better photo/word ratio this time!

    Obviously these are WET paints in studio lighting vs your house that started as print and were then reproduced online so

    *big disclaimer aside*

    I thought some of the side-by-side comparisons might help you.

    [Take a look at SW Ivoire in the first photo -- see how tan it looks? Is that the kind of color you're finding "too brown"?

    Because while I don't paint with SW, I do have some of their chips and Ivoire and Blonde - 6128 are pretty close to colors I've used and rec'd over and over in my climate. The are what I call "pale old gold" and "old gold" and they're REALLY easy to live with IMO. But we fans of those shades aren't you guys!

    Another SW color -- Inviting Ivory 6372 -- is a color chip that looks very close to a shade I've used -- the result reminded me a lot of your inspiration photo.

    Below, showing a pretty close dupe to SW Blonde on a grey day, northern exposure room -- Miller Paint "Conception" (deeper shade above the picture rail).

    House Vixen · More Info

    goosie8360 thanked House Vixen
  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    yep, Ivoire and and Blonde had been too tan for us. That's a more accurate description than brown, thank you! Your buttercream choices are much more what we are going for. I will say, I went back tonight and spent a lot of time looking at samples and came back with two. The one that I am currently very, very cautiously excited about is BM- Soleil. It's a color we've had up since we started looking at repainting but I thought it would be too bright/peach. I've painted several samples in the room that are pretty good, but where it looks best is just outside the doorway, next to the white trim with Gray Owl in the background. Absolutely hits exactly what is in my mind's eye. Husband thinks it will be good and the neon-y of the current sunroom color is overemphasizing the warmth of Soleil inside the room. I nearly didn't get the sample but thought over how I thought Pale Moon and Mushroom Cap looked dingy and decided to try for brighter. It's actually taped to the trim in my earlier pictures, ha.


    If you look very closely, the spot under the window surrounding the outlet between the two papers is also Soleil. We'll live with it a few days (and see it during daytime), but I am more optimistic about this one than anything else so far.

  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    whoops, Vixen, missed your first post. It's Friday and there's a possibility I've been drinking ;) You are right about the floors - I have a white dropcloth that I think I should go put on the floor right now! I will say, in my pictures, everything looks more intensified. Goldtone doesn't look that saturated (I wish), the yellow hue to the whole pictures isn't as evident but it really comes through in photos that way. I would say the photo I just posted from outside the room is pretty accurate on my monitor, though. But we could all pretend there's not a tiny army of yellow paint samples on the floor.

    Answers to questions -


    1. Welcoming, cheerfully warm. It's a sunroom with access to the patio so I don't want it to feel hot, but I don't need it to be bedroom levels of calm. That's why I keep pushing away from the really muted, tan colors.

    2. PM because it seems that with the natural light it gets, a variety of yellows look acceptable during the day -including the current wall color. The natural light and warmth of the southeast exposure is much more forgiving that the fluorescents. We also work full-time and it's essentially my husband's computer room for now so it's more often used at night.


    3. There are no grown trees immediately outside - just lawn. I would say deep blue in summer and that would matter more than winter anyway since shades are down more in winter for both heat retention/short daylight hours. I am in southern WI if that helps. Don't think the zone thing carried over after the transition to Houzz.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    The one that I am currently very, very cautiously excited about is BM- Soleil.

    Soleil and Egg Nog from Pratt & Lambert are almost identical. Like, to the point I wouldn't go out of your way to get a chip of Egg Nog. Unless you end up thinking Soleil is too peachy.

    goosie8360 thanked Lori A. Sawaya
  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lori, that is fantastic to hear! Cause my next option was to track that color down (forgot to ask store tonight if they could match it). I've really been partial to this store that sells BM paints as they didn't call me crazy when I said their Gray Owl gallon was reading very green, not neutral like the sample can. Turned out the machine was calibrated differently for sample cans and gallons and I wasn't crazy (on that!). But it took a lot of visits/calls and help on their part to discover that. Always willing to spend time with me and seem more knowledgeable than other stores in the area.

    The more it dries though, the more I'm convinced Soleil is the one. Annoying that I spent too much in other samples while it was taped to my trim as an option but you live and learn. Now I keep all digits crossed that it looks fine in full daylight. Possibly a touch peachier than I'd like, but spouse likes it that way, so compromise is good. Probably be next weekend before I'd paint, but I can't thank everyone and especially you for the information given. And I have no plans to paint any other room in this house yellow!

  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    I just want to echo what some others have already said: Go ahead and put primer on the walls so you don't have the existing yellow throwing everything off. You're going to do it anyway, no matter what color you choose, and it will help so much.

    I'm involved in a painting project at my church. We will be painting two separate rooms (that can't be seen from one another) the same colors. One is currently a creamy white (albeit very old and battered) and the other is an obnoxious, pulsating yellow. None of our potential wall paint candidates look good in the yellow room, while they all have merit in the white room. The yellow is throwing everything off and making samples look dead and sludgy.

    I need to take note of this thread and get my own project's yellow walls primed and *then* make a new color choice.

  • House Vixen
    5 years ago

    Hi again Goosie --

    Thanks for answering x 2 (painting projects and adult beverages seem to go together, ha)!

    Your answers really clarified things for me (and maybe others!) since I was thinking after your current paint color experience, you were more of a non-yellow person looking for a barely there and/or muted yellow.

    So some of the colors in your idea rooms looked like they would be too bright in your space based on your sample feedback. But then you were talking about samples being too pale so I was ???

    But hearing the "Buttercream" spread doesn't alarm you is helpful!

    Speaking strictly from the visual read standpoint, they're cool-toned, low-saturation yellows (aside from "Straw").

    So the "peachiness" you see in some of the shades raises red flags for you -- you want your yellow to be a cool as possible, and intensity is OK!

    Since this is a primarily PM-use room, change out those bulbs like you were talking about ASAP. Try a few different types, even. Maybe it's already done? ;)

    I also think you should strongly consider a (cool-toned!) rug that covers much of the floor.

    To get to YOUR perfect yellow room, I'd ixnay anything that casts extra warmth on your walls. So bulbs, rugs, and even artwork.

    I'll hold good thoughts for Soleil working out -- it's sure a pretty shade. Wish you were in the PNW -- Miller Paint's "May Pole" might have been an easy win.

    goosie8360 thanked House Vixen
  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    yep, we spent several days trying light bulbs after the first color was painted. The current bulbs help a lot from where we were. Peach isn't the worst, but our problem was that anything leaning the other way was throwing green undertones under the fluorescents. Weston Flax is lovely in daylight, less so at night. So yep, as cool as possible without throwing green at night. Our inspiration room was the house ours is modeled after (just up the street) and they did a strong yellow sunroom. Well, looking back their whole house had stronger tones whereas we are doing Gray Owl and Rainwashed. They've since moved and I never got the chance to ask specifically what color they used. Probably would have helped us! But yes, don't want it to be a "is it cream or yellow or white" room. It can be yellow (buttery! buttercream, no lemon!)- just not cornea burning. Still like Soleil in daytime, so it's looking promising! Won't paint til next weekend at least, so we'll live with it this week to see how it progresses.

  • allienc
    5 years ago

    Goosie, here are daylight and night photos of BM Popcorn Kernel in my south/southwest facing stairwell tower. We live on an island and the house is on 16' pilings, so we have a lot of stairs. We also have intense sun and wanted a yellow that was strong (not pale or wussy) and welcoming -- pretty much exactly what you say you are looking for. Popcorn Kernel is both. It has no green or peach undertones ever. (The carpet is a tweed and has some of the yellow in it, but it doesn't show up in the photos.) We couldn't be happier with this paint color.


  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    allie, that looks great! Love how it looks against the white trim. I think we are still a bit color shy from the first color we used and thought popcorn didn't look different enough from the color we have. So I think the plan is to keep watching Soleil, then do one coat of it this weekend and see if we think it is enough color. If not, then we would try Popcorn.


    Living on an island sounds pretty nice!

  • allienc
    5 years ago

    goosie, I understand. The picture of my stairwell color does look a lot like your original sun room color, although I didn't think mine was that close to yours until I actually compared your photo of your room with my stairwell photo! If Soleil doesn't work out, maybe try Popcorn at 75%? And living on this island is great.

  • indygo
    5 years ago

    I'll add another! Ellen Kennon's Buttercream is beautiful. It's very similar to BM Montgomery White, but of course MW isn't as rich.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    indygo Oh geeze, some of those full spectrum yellows are fabulous. Ellen has a super bright one, Monet Soleil, that would really take a lot of guts to use, but gosh it's pretty.

  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    allie, we actually don't mind the color we have too much in the daytime. It softens quite a bit. The very first pic I posted from outside the room though, I think that gives an idea of the intensity and neon vibe it gives off at night even though that's a daytime pic. If it looked like your hallway pics at night too, it'd be lovely!

  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Painted today! BM Soleil looks fantastic this evening - absolutely exactly what I had wanted! Inviting, a little warm, cheerful and crisp against the trim. No hints of green or neon! I love it! Thanks again for all the help - I wouldn't have circled back to it without the input here. I think it looks pretty similar to allie's popcorn pics though that color looked too strong in this room. So crazy how these colors change with lighting and location!

    A couple pictures and I must say - we did this room with Behr first time around and I'm sticking with BM paint from here out. The same sheen had fairly visible roll lines in the previous color. Maybe it was due to our first time painting, but I think it's that the BM paint blends better as it dries. We've noticed it compared to our bathroom that's in Sherwin Williams as well. Not so in the LR/DR with BM Gray Owl.

    I may post a daylight pic tomorrow, but I think these are pretty accurate to how it looks. Sorry for not everything being quite put away yet - need to paint hallways soon and this is a good spot to store the ladders when in use. Now to continue the search for a silvery gray that barely leans blue for our bathroom. It never ends! Thanks again and special thanks to Lori for her patient, thorough explanations and color suggestions that got me out of the woods and back on track!

    For reference, a pic of previous color (Behr Sunflower Seed) at a similar angle:

    Soleil:

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Wow, what a difference. It's a lovely, bright, sophisticated yellow. So glad you're happy with it. The results are worth all your efforts!

    goosie8360 thanked Lori A. Sawaya
  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    I think it looks a bit more peach in the photos than it does IRL, it definitely reads yellow at night though it did reach a touch peach earlier (but it was kind of rainy today so hard to gauge). Not a color you will mistake for cream, if that's what you are looking for. Seeing the side by side - it looks such much less harsh than what we had before! Definitely worth the repaint. I walk in now and smile instead of thinking ugh, gotta repaint this soon.

  • Olychick
    5 years ago

    it is really a perfect yellow. Beautiful!

  • House Vixen
    5 years ago

    Looks like you can put your inspiration photo away -- you all got there! Definitely a much more relaxing yellow for evening work/hanging out.

    Enjoy!

  • eastautumn
    5 years ago

    Gorgeous!!

  • goosie8360
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    looks just as lovely in the daytime - and works much nicer with Gray Owl than the previous color



  • just_terrilynn
    5 years ago

    Very nice!!!

  • allienc
    5 years ago

    Love it! That looks wonderful, so happy you found the perfect color. Your white trim really punches it up.


  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    Lori, has the EasyRGB site changed? I found it easy to work with back in March, but now I'm lost. I'm just trying to figure out the hue value of Kelly-Moore City Tower (I suspect it's too far into the blues for me) and I'm stymied. Perhaps the newer site (it looks great, BTW) just has a different path to what I'm looking for.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Yes, they updated it quite a bit. Added a ton more colors/brands to their library. Ellen Kennon, C2 Paint, PPG and more new additions.

    I'm not sure what you mean by hue value?

  • Laurie Gordon
    5 years ago

    Love it.


  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    Oh, I thought it was the H value I needed to plot on your color wheel. The chroma? I watched your video again and might have gotten it wrong.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    OK, hue value works. I call it hue angle but, ya know, potato/potahto. :)

    On easyrgb choose

    >Find similar colors in different collections

    >Try it Now

    >Insert original color code/name

    >Click on your color in the list to select it

    >Click Compare

    >Click on your color again

    >Click Convert

    >Find CIE-L*Ch(ab) in the list of color data

    >Find the ° - for example City Tower is 94°
    > 94° on my color wheel is the yellow hue family


  • Bunny
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lori, you da best!!!

    I printed your instructions for future reference.

    As my July 5 paint day approaches, I decided to paint some swatches on the front of my house. I thought I had settled on SW Requisite Gray, but it looks a little light next to the existing 17-year-old gray which doesn't appear to have faded at all, compared to other sides of my house.

    I decided to reconsider KM City Tower (terrible name) and it has a bit more depth but seems noticeably cooler (which I always read as blue) than Requisite Gray. It's illuminating to see it in the yellow hue family, although slightly into the cool yellow. Req Gray is 82 in the warm yellow section.

    So my perception isn't too off. My gut says to go with Requisite Gray, but I need to do another swatch of CT in a different location. It's really hard to evaluate a color when it's surrounded by the existing color, as in exterior siding. All I can do is compare, rather than just assess a color on its own.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    So my perception isn't too off.

    No, it's not. The notation confirms what you see. If you're painting on the siding, try more of a circle shape than a big square to see if that helps you compare.

    Here's all the important notations/values for both colors. I'll explain how the wheel works in a little more depth because it might help you compare from an analytical perspective.


    When you plot the colors by degrees on the outside of the wheel, you're answering the question "where do theses colors fit in compared to all the other colors in the human gamut of colors?" Gamut is like a bucket and, of course, the human gamut of color is huge, millions.

    When you plot the colors by the hue family notation on the inside of the wheel, you're answering the question where do these colors fit in among all the colors in the Munsell color library. The Munsell color space is a much smaller gamut or bucket of colors.

    The hue family notation for City Tower is 3.68 Y and 94°. Requisite Gray is 0.44 Y and 83°. (here's the color wheel for reference, download it here)


    Where a color lands in terms of degrees on the outside does not always perfectly align with where the color lands on the inside - and that's okay, because...

    The reason why it's useful to plot colors in two different color spaces (the human gamut and Munsell) is because it's a way to COMPARE color from two different perspectives in addition to your own color perspective.

    It's like having two best friends who are really good with color and being able to ask them, "Hey, what do you think about this paint color, what do you see?"

    With those three different points of view, you're able to consistently, objectively, and intelligently evaluate color.

    The reason why you can merge the two color spaces/wheels, Munsell and the human gamut, is a long, fascinating story of color history and discovery. In short, Munsell's color system is the backbone of modern color spaces/systems because it is the best mapping of human color perception there is. Many have tried to improve or "best" the Munsell color system. After much documentation (a good estimation is 3,000,000 color judgments by more than 40 observers) it's still the
    standard against which other color order systems can be compared.

  • Bunny
    5 years ago

    Lori, I just watched your YouTube video "Why Does My Gray Paint Color Look Purple." Cool video. It's nice seeing you and hearing your voice. But I gotta ask, what gray did your client eventually choose so it wouldn't look purple?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    I don't know yet. Here's what I'm sending her - a range of grays starting from about the middle of the yellow hue family.

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Hi Lori Sawaya,

    I have been reading this thread with interest because I have
    been trying to find a Benjamin Moore yellow to replace a light yellow that has
    been in my living room for over twenty years.
    It is a yellow paint color an acquaintance used in her house that was a custom-match
    (to what I do not know) in Coronado paint.
    I, and everyone else that likes yellow, really like this yellow, but I
    would prefer to use Benjamin Moore paint when we repaint. When we originally painted the room, I tried
    to have our Benjamin Moore dealer custom-match the yellow and it was a poor
    match, so I ended up using the Coronado paint.

    I have recently tried a dozen, or so, Benjamin Moore yellow Color
    Samples (on Mighty Boards, rather than on the wall) and the closest matches in
    terms of value? are Weston Flax HC-5 and Goldtone OC-112, although they are a
    tiny bit more grayed down (which I like because they look better with the other
    Benjamin Moore paint colors in my house).
    The hue? (color) is somewhere between Weston Flax and Goldtone. I found your Munsell Color Notations for BM
    Off-White Colors and it places the hue for Goldtone at Y 2.59. Pale Moon is at Y 4.10, which may be the closest
    to Weston Flax. If you could provide the
    notations for Weston Flax I would really appreciate it (I am also curious what they
    are for Windham Cream HC-6 and Hawthorne Yellow HC-4, to compare with Weston Flax).

    Goldtone seems a bit too peachy with my upholstery (a linen
    print with a muted yellow/flax colored background), so I am tempted to try
    Weston Flax first, although the room faces north and I am a bit afraid it will show
    a green cast. I have considered Summer
    Harvest, but haven’t bought a sample of it because I was afraid it would be a
    bit tan like some of the more muted yellows I tried.

    Thanks so much for any information you can provide!
    lexy-02

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Sorry for the jumbled paragraphs above. I cut-and-pasted my question into the comment box and the format looked fine until it was submitted! lexy-02

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I think I got 'em all. Download the color wheel and plot the colors either by h° or hue family. This table is in order by h° / hue family.

    The attributes you're seeing align with the data. For example, Goldtone is the closest to the orange hue family out of the bunch which explains "too peachy".

    As far as Summer Harvest being too tan, I dunno about that. Here's the table in order by chroma. Chroma scale is about how close a color is to a true neutral gray. Summer Harvest is in the middle compared to these colors. (the lower the number the closer to gray so Hawthorne is the most chromatic or colorful)

    As far as greeness. This table puts them in order from most to least green.

    Just so you know I didn't pull any of these chips to check to see if the data aligns with how the colors look. So, be sure to evaluate carefully. Always remember we can not color by numbers alone. How the color looks in situ is what matters most.

    If the numbers are off a tiny bit from the notations you got from The LoC it's because the numbers in these tables come from measurements using a newer fandeck. NBD as long as they're close.

    This should keep you busy for a while. :)

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Hi Lori,

    Thanks so much for getting back with me so quickly! I love color and would like to know more about the science of color, so I will enjoy looking through all the information you sent. Yellows and ivories are my favorite colors, but they are difficult to get right (can lean too "green")!

    Have a great day!

    lexy-02

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Hi Lori,

    I quickly checked a 5 x 9 color chip I have of Summer Harvest next to my current yellow and it is darker and more muted. In saying "tan", I was thinking of the colors Westchester Tan 246 and Mansfield Tan 248 (same color as Dunmore Cream HC-29?), which are more muted). Summer Harvest seems to be in the right hue range, so I may try a sample of it. Unfortunately, the next lighter color on its strip is too peach/cream colored.

    I won't be able to repaint the living room until I finish some other projects. When I get there, I plan to roll a quart of Weston Flax on the walls to see what direction I need to go if that doesn't work. My daughter's master bedroom was already painted Hawthorne Yellow when they bought their house, which they eventually painted over. I actually liked it, but not for a master bedroom and it is too bright for my space. That room faces south, whereas my living room faces north.

    lexy-02

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Hi Lori,

    I have a question about the science of color when it comes
    to paint colors. If you take two cans of the same yellow paint (containing only
    yellow ochre and yellow pigments) that hasn’t had any gray or black pigment
    added to it to tone it down, and then add a different amount of gray (or black)
    to each can of yellow paint, does that change where the resulting two colors
    will fall on the Munsell color wheel in regard to hue? It would if you added
    the complementary color instead of gray or black to it to neutralize it, wouldn’t
    it?

    My original yellow paint formula contained two of Coronado’s
    yellows, with no gray or black added to it (though, compared to several of Benjamin Moore's cleaner yellow I have tried, it appears to be more toned down than they are).

    I have an art/design background, so am interested in the paint
    formulas, whether it helps to know them or not when choosing a paint color. (I do realize you can't compare paint formulas between manufacturers because their bases and pigments will differ.)

    Thanks!

    lexy-02

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    5 years ago

    Hi Lexy-02

    The only thing that matters, the only thing we can manage is the color when it's dry so don't waste your time trying to decipher colorants and formulas.

    I'm a color strategist not a chemist. No desire to know anything about where the color comes from. Happy letting the paint store people do it for me so I can focus on design.

    If someone works in a paint store mixing color day in and day out, then I'd be willing to entertain (maybe) the idea that they are able to make predictions about how a color will look and behave in the 3 dimensional built environment. But even then they are limited to the expert knowledge of their own brand, it's not a universal expertise that can be applied across the board to all paint brands. Other than that, it's my opinion that it's impossible to make predictions about color based on subtractive color mixing practices for architectural coatings.


    Whenever you change the ingredients in the can, you're going to get a new color with it's own color DNA and Munsell color notation. That's why cutting a formula by 25% or 50%, etc. is more myth than fact.

  • lexy_02
    5 years ago

    Lori, I suppose in theory the hue shouldn't change if you tone it down, but in practice it may to some degree. I took a color theory class when attending the University of Kansas, taught by someone who had a background in color science and worked in the industry before moving on to teaching, and we did a lot of mixing of pigments to learn about color. Thanks for all your help!

  • lexy_02
    4 years ago

    Update: Just in case anyone else is interested, Benjamin Moore’s paint
    color Summer Harvest 206, using the Regal matte finish base (548), is mixed
    using their black, organic yellow, and orange pigments. Due to the fact it
    contains black pigment, it can look a bit tan and green in some light. I found Happy Valley 212, using the same
    base, is mixed using the same pigments as Weston Flax HC-5 and Goldtone OC-112/176
    (oxide yellow, organic yellow, and gray). I recently bought a pint of Happy
    Valley and painted a large sample board with it. In my room’s northern light, it is a soft, creamy
    yellow. It appears to be a bit less “peach” than Goldtone and less “green” than
    Weston Flax. (I won’t be repainting the room for awhile, so have no pictures to
    show.)