More Americans Support Roe v. Wade Than Ever Before

dublinbay z6 (KS)

I'm probably wading into dangerous waters to even post this information--especially since the HT powers-that-be have indicated they don't like threads that re-hash (again and again) --and in vitriolic tones-- the whole Roe v Wade argument all over again from its beginnings, but Pew Research is a highly regarded researcher/pollster, so I thought we should quickly just look at their latest survey (Jan. 2017) measuring how high the current level of pro-choice support is.

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"Sixty-nine percent of Americans now oppose overturning Roe v. Wade, according to a Pew Research Center report published Tuesday. This marks a six-point increase in public support for the 1973 Supreme Court decision since Pew last asked about it in 2013. It is also the highest level of approval for Roe v. Wade that national pollsters have measured since Gallup began asking about it in 1989. . . .

. . . . . . . . .

. . . the partisan gap has grown considerably. According to the new Pew poll, 84 percent of those who lean Democratic oppose overturning Roe v. Wade, compared to 66 percent in 1992. Just over half of people who lean Republican oppose overturning it, a negligible change from two decades ago. However, a majority of conservative Republicans support overturning the decision, according to the report. Some take the anti-abortion sentiment an extreme: In December, almost 40 percent of Trump supporters said they favored punishing women who get abortions if the procedure gets banned." (Source)

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I find the following bit particularly informative:

"Just over half of people who lean Republican oppose overturning [Roe v Wade]. . . ."

and---

"a majority of conservative Republicans support overturning the decision. . . "

There's another one of those splits in the Republican Party--the traditional Republicans vs. the conservatives.

People forget that abortion rights was originally a Republican position--by the traditional Republicans. It was the "newcomers" entering that party--the conservatives in various guises--that have been pressuring for decades now to change the Republican Party into the Conservative Republican Party.

Or course, nowadays, they are going to have to fight it out with the Trump Republican Party.

At any rate, commitment to abortion rights, by a majority of Americans from all parties (independents also) is growing stronger as time goes by.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

There is lots of interesting history around the issues of women's reproductivity, but as far as the Supreme Court ruling Roe v Wade goes, that is all irrelevant. The Supremes thoroughly studied that history as well as the other matters I mentioned in a previous post (did you read it?) and concluded that there is no consensus in terms of attitudes and beliefs in our society, past or present--and therefore, they could find no basis for determining why one attitude/belief/practice should prevail, by law, over all the other (and differing) attitudes/beliefs/practices. That is why the Supreme concluded that it would have to be left up to each individual woman to exercise her own freedom to believe/practice what she, as an individual, determined was best for herself.

That is the essence of Roe v Wade--and this other stuff being covered is irrelevant to that one essential principle enshrined in Roe v Wade.

Kate

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momj47(7A)

Read your own comment, oaktown

Backpedaling?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

By the way, Terrene--good post!


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Oaktown

What is the law? Is a worthy question.

What should the law be? Is another worthy question, some would say a more important one.

If the discussion here is going to be limited to "what does Roe v. Wade say" that's fine. Since I've read and discussed it many times, I don't really find discussions of the opinion itself to be that interesting. Have fun!

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Oaktown

momj47, what are you talking about? This is what the article you linked says (including the part you quoted in your post above):

UNTIL the last third of the nineteenth century, when it was criminalized state by state across the land, abortion was legal before "quickening" (approximately the fourth month of pregnancy).

***

Attitudes toward early abortions -- in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries those before quickening, today those in the first trimester -- have always been much more permissive and matter-of-fact than attitudes toward later abortions

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blfenton

The other stuff is covered and argued as being relevant by those who don't accept Roe v Wade. And there are many who try to circumvent the ruling.


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Exactly, blfenton.

And so that there is no confusion in the ranks, Roe v Wade is not a "law" passed by Congress (or the States). Abortion rights are a "Constitutional" right, as stated in the high court ruling called Roe v Wade.

Laws passed by Congress can later be declared constitutional or not, but that is not the same thing as the court finding the "right" already in the Constitution--which means you cannot pass a law declaring a constitutional "right" to be illegal or forbidden or whatever.

What Roe v Wade found was that certain kinds of legal restrictions can be imposed on the constitutional right to abortion, but it limited what kinds of restrictions and under what conditions.

In case you don't know, what states can and cannot pass laws on is as follows, in a nutshell:

1. State can't restrict woman's freedom of choice in the first trimester. Anything that interferes with her free choice is unconstitutional.

2. State can pass some restrictions during the second trimester that are intended to protect the woman's health. These kinds of restrictions are things like facilities and medical staff--but when such restrictions have less to do with the woman's health and more to do with excessive regulation (usually for political reasons), then they are unconstitutionally interfering with the woman's free choice.

3. After the point of viability is reached (medically, that is 24 weeks; politically, the anti-choicers have declared that date to be 20 weeks), then the State can weigh the interests of both the woman and her fetus. This usually means that late-term abortions (which are very rare) can be severely restricted, as long as the woman's life and health are held paramount. Usually extreme fetal deformity is also made an exception, and often rape/incest victims given an exception.

I'm somewhat oversimplifying here, but basically those are the only types of things the States can pass laws on when it comes to abortion. The one thing the State absolutely cannot do is make all abortion illegal in that State--because abortion is not a law to be passed or abolished, but a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, according to the Supreme Court -- its authority residing in the Constitution which enumerates the RIGHTS of individuals.

Kate

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Oaktown

"Law" as a concept vs. statute "laws" however one wants to parse it. I would pose a rhetorical question that if abortion so clearly is a constitutional right, and apparently so many people support the result in Roe v. Wade, then why are some people worried about a future Supreme Court decision modifying or overturning the decision?

That is why personally I find the larger picture is worth discussing with people who hold all kinds of opinions. Seems to me too often on this topic people talk past each other and discussions turn to broad generalizations that make it difficult to inject any kind of nuance much less move towards understanding.

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blfenton

Oaktown - that is a good question because Roe v Wade was determined by a 7-2 majority and 6 of the judges in the majority were nominated by Republican presidents.

Perhaps a fear of the changing times. I don't know.

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Ziemia(6a)

Dublinbay/ Kate - Your summary was very enlightening for me - and I took your comments as an invitation to read it. Just saved it in PDF and off to start reading it now.

I think few will change their feelings around Roe v Wade - it is a topic worthy of strong feelings. These discussions however help me to understand why I feel so strongly about this and why efforts to take the decision away from the woman so scary.

gyr_falcon - Your take on pro-life is provocative (& that is a good thing). This also connects to the 'right to die' issue, doesn't it? Organ donation upon death? In the USA, organ donation and blood donation are of vital importance to sustaining some lives - yet it is entirely up to the individual with those parts.

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Ziemia(6a)

Most (about 90%) abortions take place during the first trimester. Half occur before the 8th gestational week.

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Oaktown

Thank you texasranger2 I will take a look at the piece you linked.

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lily316

Just skimming this thread for the first time, I came to one conclusion. I am so glad I'm not a fanatical Christian and take the Bible literally. RR's description of a marriage is my idea of a Stepford wife's life. The forced birth nuts should be happy to take in any such child and raise it. They don't realize how hypocritical they are. The RW wants to deny benefits and food stamps to poor families , but think nothing of having that mother bring yet another child into the equation. I have never had an abortion but would in a heartbeat if the circumstances were such and would counsel daughter and granddaughter the same way. In the first trimester, it's not different than using birth control like the morning-after pill. I have a problem with abortions if they happen in the last trimester when the baby is viable and believe only in the case of a mother's life or a totally damaged baby who will die at birth. Roe will never be overturned. Women will resist. If you think the Women's march last month was spectacular, you ain't seen nothing yet. We are 51% of the population.

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jodik_gw

Good points to add, Meanom... I mean "the right to die" and "organ donation". We rarely discuss these issues, and I don't recall ever seeing them included in a discussion about abortion... but they all have to do with personal choice. There's a connection there, for sure.

The death penalty, also, comes into this discussion, in that I'm not understanding how one can be so totally against abortion... even though having one is not a requirement... but many of those same persons are all for the death penalty. How does that work out in terms of justification?

At one time, I wasn't sure how I felt about the death penalty... but as I thought about it, and as time passed, I came to see that that wasn't my judgment call to make. I can't condemn another living human being to death, no matter what he or she has done.

Getting back to the two opening ideas, though... and here again, some people are totally set against the right to die. The way I look at it is this... the life I live is mine, and belongs to no one else but me. Should I wish to end it, whether I'm elderly and ill, suffering constantly with chronic pain, end up with a condition that is fatal and horrible... or not... that should be my own choice to make.

And of course, we already know that organ and blood donation are choices... my husband and I are both donors, for what it's worth. Should something catastrophic happen, we would very much like to think that some parts of us can be saved to help others.

My body, my choice...

~~~

Thanks, Kate... for laying all that out regarding Constitutional rights... simplifying it was okay. It got the point across.




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Oaktown

Here are links to the 2016 Democratic party platform and Republican party platform.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf

https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

I would be curious what if any reactions people have to the sections on reproductive rights (pages 37 in the Democratic party document) or right to life (pages 13-14 in the Republican party document) *on their face.* I'm sure there could be plenty of debate as to what each "really means" but how about looking at what each actually says. Neither of them mention Roe v. Wade.

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Oaktown

Unanimous agreement? I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are ;-)

Here's the Pew Research info re views on abortion from January 2017.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/01/11/public-opinion-on-abortion-2/

Interesting that this does not show differences in views by gender whereas it does show marked differences based on other demographics (for example religion or ethnicity). 57% of women said abortion should be legal in all or most cases, compared to 40% illegal in all or most cases. 57% of men said abortion should be legal in all or most cases compared to 39% illegal in all or most cases.

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jodik_gw

I guess the part that always stumps me is why some feel the need to control every little thing that other people do.


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Oaktown

jodik_gw, for those who truly believe that personhood begins at conception, then abortion effectively is murder and it's not a question of control? That is the view I have heard. That is why I would like to try to understand this view of personhood/humanity beginning at conception.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

meanom, I specifically correlated forced childbearing with forcing a donation from a living person, because they would be more equally burdensome. After someone dies, donating is no more onerous to the donor, than the queasiness level of their survivors.

I try to form stances so that they can support a range of like circumstances, even those that I might not otherwise agree with personally. In "right to die", as with being pro-choice, I count a person's rights (to control their own body, make decisions concerning the quality of their own life, fairness, etc.) and the magnitude of the impact of their decision, well above someone else's right to veto their wishes and rights due to superficial reasons (religion, fears, personal doubts, dubious what-ifs). I choose for me, you choose for you. Unless there is a very compelling reason otherwise (pedophiles don't get to harm children, community safety through vaccination levels, etc.).

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purrmichigan(5)

jodik_gw, for those who truly believe that personhood begins at conception, then abortion effectively is murder and it's not a question of control?

it is a matter of control. One person believes personhood begins at conception. Another person doesn't. Neither one gets to say what the truth is. Only for themselves, not for anyone else. The government finally had to establish some benchmarks that are probably arbitrary. Nevertheless, that is the law now. Your beliefs don't trump mine and they don't control my body.

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Oaktown

Neither one gets to say what the truth is.

One day I hope we will know but yes based on the two most common framings of the issue people are unlikely to ever reach agreement. I get that you see it as control. What I am saying is that they (pro-lifers) get that for some (pro-choicers) it is not a question of is it a person and what I am asking is do folks get that for some (pro-lifers) it is not a question of "feeling the need for control"? (Sorry for the generalizations re "they")

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Oaktown, in some countries, a woman can be sentenced to up to 50 years in jail for having a miscarriage or stillbirth. Do you consider a miscarriage or stillbirth murder? I don't know the ratios, but there are "personhood" groups that support jail for unintentional abortions and stillbirths in the United States. Can you see anything about those types of sentences that would show they are about anything other than control?

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Oaktown

Do you consider a miscarriage or stillbirth murder? No

I don't know the ratios, but there are "personhood" groups that support jail for unintentional abortions and stillbirths in the United States. Really? I was not aware of that.

If people want to debate abortion please count me out. What I am trying to do is get a better understanding of history and views. I am someone with lots of questions not answers.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I wanted to debate the issue, Oaktown. That wasn't my intention.

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momj47(7A)

I'm trying to get past the drum beating noise and political rhetoric

Then don't post links to pro forced-birth, anti-women web sites full of anecdotes and inflammatory rhetoric.

Anecdotes do not make policy

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Language needs to be carefully addressed--different words imply different philosophies.

Are you asking if "life" begins at "conception"? Or if "personhood" begins at conception?

"Life" was the argument anti-choicers have made for decades. Pro-choicers would answer that that is not the issue as far as any laws or the contitutional issue go. Legally, the question is, when does "personhood" begin--which is to say, for instance, does a zygote have voting rights (since "persons," legally/consitutionally speaking, have voting rights?) or does a zygote have civil rights (since "persons" do). But of course the real problem there is that the Constitutional Amendments make it very clear that "personhood" is an attribute of someone who is "born"--and a zygote is not "born."

It is only very recently that anti-choicers started making the "personhood at conception" argument. Before when they argued "life began at conception," most everyone agreed--and pro-choicers would point out that a zygote is "life" in the same sense that a tomato "lives" and "grows" and "develops." So does a zygote, but saying it has "life" is not the same as saying it is a human being or legal person. An acorn is not an oak tree, although it is a potential oak tree if the growing conditions are favorable.

Now about the "conception" argument, that is basically the Catholic position. Most protestant religions hold some version of the belief that until the fertilized eggs gets attached to the wall of the uterus, it is not yet a "baby" or "alive" (whichever terms/protestant religious group you espouse).

This is an important distinction when it comes to some kinds of birth control (such as the IUD) and the "morning-after-pill"--both of which do not stop conception, but keep the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall. Thus, to a Catholic both the IUD birth-control and the "morning-after-pill" are forms of abortion and thus "murder." To most protestant groups, neither birth-control like the IUD nor "morning-after-pill" are abortion, since to most of these groups abortion occurs only AFTER the fertilized egg attaches to the uterine wall.

By the way, since there are 100s of different protestant groups, some variation in beliefs is quite possible. My generalizations about protestant belief is referring mainly to the standard mainstream denominations and a number of right-wing fundamentalist protestants.

It is this kind of disagreement among religious groups that convinced the Supreme Court that they could not go to religion for an answer for everybody in the USA--since they would have to declare which ONE religion was the "correct" one and ban all the others. Most USA citizens would be outraged at such an idea. So the high court decided each woman would have to decide for herself based on her own religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

About the "control" issue, if your religious belief is made the law and everybody must agree with it, including its views on abortion, you darned well better believe that is "controlling" what I can believe or not, unless I want to go to jail or face some severe penalty for being guilty of "heresy" for disagreeing with the official state religion picked by the high court.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Additional point: I see someone earlier was wondering where the Bible declares fertilized eggs as "persons."

It does not.

"Personhood" is a modern legal/constitutional concept, mostly developed in American in the 19th and 20th Centuries by various legal and constitutional rulings and practices. Two thousand or more years ago and in a totally different culture, "zygotes are persons" would be gibberish.

And still doesn't make much sense today either--unless you believe there is no difference between an acorn and a 100 ft. oak tree.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Your Catholic training is showing up everywhere--and you are assuming most people agree with the Catholic viewpoint.

You said:

"Another thing I learned is there are many more risks involved in the procedure than I had any idea of previously and more emotional & mental problems resulting from it than I was aware of, even from avid pro-choice women."

Wrong. That is a bunch of propaganda. Abortion is a very safe procedure. If it weren't for the political hot button quality of the issue, abortions could be (and in the past, were) performed in a regular doctor's office during a regular office visit. In fact, a trained nurse could easily perform an abortion.

It is true that the later abortions can involve more problems sometimes, and a third trimester abortion is basically a caesaean section --which women have every day, by the way, but do involve more recovery time. But the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed in the early months--very easy, simple operation involved. And nowsdays, pills can bring about the early abortions, so surgery often isn't even involved.

It has long been known that carrying a pregnancy to term (for full-term delivery) is actually more dangerous than abortion is--and very few women nowadays suffer serious consequences from carrying full-term.

As for the "emotional and mental problems"--double horse-hockey. That is propaganda piled on propaganda. The respected PEW Institute has been studying this issue for decades now and can find no evidence of negative "emotional or mental" effects on the woman receiving the abortion.

I would add that if the woman exists in an environment where all the people around her, as well as her priest, are trying to make her feel guilty and to repent of her "sin" of abortion, yes, a woman in that case might have some real emotional/mental problems after an abortion--but not from the abortion. It would be caused by her unloving relatives/friends/religious leaders who want her to suffer!

You may believe any religious propaganda you want, but please do not state it here as though it were a universally acknowledged truth. Those are highly explosive things you are maintaining. This may all be new to you, but we have gone over these false arguments dozens and dozens of times since 1973 when the high court ruled in Roe v Wade--so you are, as far as many of us are concerned, simply repeating in an unthinking way the old propaganda myths that we discredited 30 or 40 years ago.

I don't mean to be rough with you, but it gets very aggravating having to spend 40 years stating again and again why something is a false belief.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"Dublin. After a bit of an eyeball roll, I decided I just had to come back and add there is a definite difference between a seedling and an acorn."

LOL. I'm glad we can agree on something.

Kate

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Oaktown

Thanks everyone. For me the question of when "personhood" or "humanity" begins, as a moral matter (as opposed to a legal one) is the major determining factor. I do not know when that is, and personally have gone back and forth in my views on that question. For me the uncertainty means that I would not choose an abortion; it also means that I would not presume to "pass judgment" so to speak as to those who do. This is a vast oversimplification of my views but I'm going to leave it there.

texasranger2 and dublinbay Kate I do appreciate the dialogue.

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Oaktown

texasranger2 I don't think it is just women's rights but also autonomy, self determination, personal freedom -- that's why it's called "pro-choice," right? And I understand how people can logically come out one way or the other depending on whether or not they think another human/person/baby is involved.

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momj47(7A)

All new human persons begin at conception.

Sort of, but the "life" that exists at conception cannot live on it's own. That "life" is totally dependent on, as the RWNJ MEN call us, the host.

That "life" cannot live on it's own until about 32 weeks - 8 months.

We have become so obsessed with the fetus that we have lost sight of the woman/mother - already a living being.

On Tuesday, the Oklahoma state legislature will hold a hearing for a bill that would require women to receive written consent from their sexual partner before undergoing an abortion. Bill HB 1441, as Jezebel points out, isunconstitutional.Rep. Justin Humphrey, defended the proposed legislation, saying that once women become pregnant, their bodies don’t belong to them anymore. And no, we’re not paraphrasing.

“I understand that they feel like that is their body,” Humphrey said in an interview with theIntercept. “I feel like it is a separate — what I call them is, is you’re a ‘host.’ And you know when you enter into a relationship you’re going to be that host and so, you know, if you pre-know that then take all precautions and don’t get pregnant. So that’s where I’m at. I’m like, hey, your body is your body and be responsible with it. But after you’re irresponsible then don’t claim, well, I can just go and do this with another body, when you’re the host and you invited that in.”

That’s right, “hosts.” Because pregnant women are basically akin to the unfortunate victims of parasites andChestbursters.

What an ignorant misogynist

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I will not bother to respond to your false statements since you do not seem to know when you are repeating propaganda and when you are advancing verifiable truths--and because you admitted you didn't bother to read my last answer because I correctly identified your viewpoint as the Catholic position on abortion--a viewpoint that is not shared by non-Catholics, although you do not seem to know that.

Abortion is a moral issue (among other things)--one for each individual to decide for herself. No law should be passed taking away each woman's right to make her own individual choices.

Carry on--I really don't care what anyone else's moral or otherwise personal opinion on abortion is. My concern is only when I see false information being passed around--false in the sense of being verifiable or not-- or when someone starts arguing that there ought to be a law taking away a woman constitutionally guaranteed freedom of reproductive choice.

Good bye.

Kate


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terrene(5b MA)

Texasranger - On a more personal level, all of my siblings nearly disowned me due
to my views when the subject came up a couple years ago and now we walk
on egg-shells, before that I had no idea they felt so strongly about it.
I was outnumbered and it was a terrible wake-up call that caught me
utterly off-guard. I am still stunned and hurt by their anger towards me
and we no longer bring the subject up but the damage is done in the
relationships...I looked into the medical aspect. From what I can learn they define
human life as beginning at the moment of conception, it appears to be an
unquestioned, apolitical fact based on biology.

I don't have any interest in the arguments, all of which I have heard on TV. I'm more interested in learning.

I doubt that. You have such a strong religious bias to your thinking that it is likely you are looking for sources of information that confirm your religious beliefs - aka "confirmation bias". This is typical of human psychology.

Another thing I learned is there are many more risks involved in the
procedure than I had any idea of previously and more emotional &
mental problems resulting from it

As someone who has experienced abortion, miscarriage, and full term pregnancy, and whose dear sister died 27 years ago this month from complications of pregnancy and childbirth, it's my experience that pregnancy, childbirth, and childrearing are potentially much more health-threatening, and much more psychologically challenging, than abortion (eta done in a clinical setting by a professional healthcare practitioner of course, not some back-alley abortion).

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rgreen48(7a)

Because this thread has a title of Roe vs. Wade (a secular issue,) and garden prep season is in full swing, I've stayed away from this thread.

I just opened it up after coming in from outside - and I mean... almost 80 degrees in Feb???!!! Records smashed! ... and I see that much of this later discussion revolves around Oaktown's query of a biblical basis for 'life at conception.'

The scriptures aren't direct on the issue. Why? Mainly because of the Hebrew culture. However, there is enough, at least in the minds of many of God's people, written to help a discerning person understand God's view on the matter.

The most direct scripture concerning the death of the unborn is found at Ex. 21: 22 - 25...

“When
men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come
out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined,
as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the
judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

The penalty, for the death of an unborn child - even if it is by accident (usually a charge of 'manslaughter' and slightly different under the Mosaic Law from murder) - is the same as murder. This gives us our first clue towards God's view of the unborn. In God's eyes, killing the unborn is murder.

Further evidence is found in the scriptures similar to...

Ps. 139: 16 - "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every
one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was
none of them."

and...

Jer. 1: 5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I
consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Such scriptures help us understand that before we are born, before even we are 'formed in the womb,' God sees us, and values us as human beings with a future.

Then, more evidence can be seen from God's view of sexual activity. Throughout the Bible, God teaches responsibility. Sexual intercourse, outside of marriage, is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Why? Because it is an act of creation. Bringing anything into existence means that the author is responsible for what he creates. The principle runs deep throughout the Bible's pages. Jesus even said that we are judged for every word that comes out of our mouths. Yes, we have to think about the consequences of our thoughts and actions.

Why is this important to God? Because he is the Creator. Every bit of his creation (even that which is not sentient, or even alive) is precious. His works are perfect, and he cares, and takes responsibility for every aspect of Creation (remember the sparrow that doesn't fall without our heavenly Father's notice, or even the lilies of the field that he arrayed so beautifully.) Thus, as his children who strive to become as much like him as we can, we too strive to be perfect and take care and responsibility for our works.

So, sex outside of marriage - even down to God helping his people with advice for how to find a good mate (one that will be a good complement for the raising of our children) - is not acceptable. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) treats the creative act that brings human life into the world with disdain and dishonors the precious nature of life. It looks at God's gift of sharing in creation as less than ordinary. It is the temporary enjoyment of pleasure and the total disregard for consequences.

Imagine, knowing that an act so precious as to be the very manner in which a life can be created... and there are many who don't look beyond the fleeting moment of pleasure... let's not even open the door of how disgraceful so many people treat each other during, and after the sexual act.

I hope that answers your question Oaktown. All the Biblical evidence suggests that life doesn't just begin at physical conception... but at the point of attraction between mates, and the question of choosing a partner to share in the precious opportunity to take responsibility for a new life.

The entire book of the Song of Solomon is a beautiful read. Chapter 8 goes into details about a young women who is either a 'door', or a 'wall'. In poetic language it reveals our attitude towards sex.

But Song of Solomon 8: 4 contains a thought that I find incredibly, and beautifully insightful...


"I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem,
that you not stir up or awaken love
until it pleases."

Love, attraction, desire... all should not be hurried. Do not awaken love. Do not move fast. Take your time. Find a lifelong mate. Look to the future, and measure every moment as opportunities... not simply for present, fleeting pleasures, but also with long-term consequences in view. Those seeking God's advice in this regard, recognize that this is the path to happiness and contentment. We can't see every unfolding aspect of our choices, but in every moment, with every choice, we do the best we can to set ourselves off to a happy and content future.

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susanjf_gw

ok roseberry ranch...you got it.. men win....but in OUR family it was love and being responsible members...knowing that long term birth control is $ and sometimes difficult? well they (all 5) did the only decent thing and had a vasectomy...

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purrmichigan(5)

mind-set on the pro-abortion side

This jumped out at me. Did not read any further. No. One. Is. Pro. Abortion. If this is something you like to say to irritate people or if, for some weird reason you believe, you will never understand the issue. Get real.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

texasranger2, have you asked your sisters what changed their attitudes? Wouldn't asking them give you a much more accurate answer than reading internet info and trying to guess which information might have changed their minds? If I missed where you brought this up already, I apologize.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Ah. Perhaps their change was not as sudden as you believe. They could have gone over things in their mind for some time before allowing you to become aware of their change in stance, knowing it would conflict with yours. Or they might know someone they are close with that had to make the choice, and gained empathy and understanding as a result. Of course, I have no idea. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it: you might gain better understanding by studying first person accounts of women that have made the choice, rather than in depth studies about the procedure itself.

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Ann

HUGE regret and for good reason! I can't imagine anyone could have an abortion (as I once did) and not eventually recognize the harsh and brutal reality of what they did. In my case that regret was not based on religion, but simple morality. If a woman has an abortion, she is ending the life of someone and that someone is her own child. That is simply the hard cold truth.

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Ziemia(6a)

As has been said:

No. One. Is. Pro. Abortion.

If one uses the term "pro abortion" one has missed entirely key aspects of the 'argument'

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Maybe the mainstream attitudes did not change in such a short time.

Illegal -- there was no other kind -- abortions took place, but were not discussed. The risks and punishments were too great.

I remember reading long ago that herbal remedies to terminate prenancies dated back to distant times. Women have wanted control over their reproduction for ages and ages.

The ability of women to choose the when of their pregnancy, or no pregnancy at all with birth control, was a step to greater independence, and away from a solely biologically determined life. As women are more involved outside the home, as equal earners, and contributors to family security, previous norms change to the new circumstances.

The ability of a woman to control her body now includes the right to terminate a pregnancy within recognized guidelines. The trade-off is the delicate balance between the right of the woman, and as pregnancy advances, the right to the unborn child.

There are also pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother.

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purrmichigan(5)

In real life you can't section people off into categories the way you seem to want to. You also seem like you're causing stress in your family by not accepting their beliefs. You'll have to decide for yourself how far you want to push it, and how far to the right you choose to go. People lose relationships all the time over disagreements about abortion and/or politics. Your choice.

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terrene(5b MA)

Ann - HUGE regret and for good reason! I can't imagine anyone could have an
abortion (as I once did) and not eventually recognize the harsh and
brutal reality of what they did.

Well, that is sad you feel that way, but you probably shouldn't project your own emotional bias onto others. I didn't experience emotional trauma, psychological torment, or been haunted. Don't feel guilt or the need to be forgiven. Not that having an abortion was a cavalier experience. It was emotional and distressing at the time, although it was even more distressing that I was pregnant when I didn't want to be. So the primary emotion I experienced afterwards was relief. I'm thankful to have lived at a time and place when legal, safe abortion was available. The vast majority of women who have walked the planet have not been so lucky.

PS As for not understanding the "harsh and brutal" reality, I am a curious and scientific person, know exactly what happened during the dilation and evacuation process, have studied embryonic development, have looked at
pictures of aborted embryos, etc. What is it that I don't understand?

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purrmichigan(5)

A woman's right to abortion - there you go. Nothing to be ashamed of saying.

I haven't been reading your comments with the goal of making very accurate and specific responses. More off the top of my head type comments. In any case, you've found like minded people, other than your family. Carry on.

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parker25mv

Some people ask "How can we as a society afford to take care of all those babies?"

Point granted. Now I'll ask "How can we afford to take care of all those babies that women choose to have?" You see, your argument in this particular case doesn't only stop at what the woman wants to do. If you can abort babies for the greater social good, there is likewise logical justification to control women's reproduction (to stop them from having babies). The two ultimately go together and by saying the woman's choice is more important than the life of the baby, you're ultimately setting a precedent. If the baby's life is not important, well how little weight the woman's choice must carry! It can be overridden by societal impositions, like so many other personal choices these days. If the baby's life isn't that important, it's morally easy to force a woman to abort. That may be an irony supporters of women's choice prefer to overlook. Then the only thing standing in between you and killing your baby is your choice. Because we've already established a precedent that that baby's life isn't worth much (sorry if I'm repeating myself). Is a woman's right to reproduction really that important? Is it more important than life? If we can write off one, isn't it easy to write off the other?

Sorry, just some thoughts.

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jodik_gw

(Excuse me while I edit my post... I'm working on a very old laptop that doesn't seem to want to cooperate today; I keep losing access to my preferred mouse.)

~~~

Oaktown said: "jodik_gw, for those who truly believe that personhood begins at conception, then abortion effectively is murder and it's not a question of control?"

Then I would guess it's time, once again, for those people to revisit and learn exactly what our federally upheld, legal rights are according to the Constitution and the rights of the people, thereof.

Religious interpretation plays no role, whatsoever, this being a secular nation... and neither does the personal belief of someone, or anyone else. My choice is a right supported by our Constitution. For those of us within this secular nation, there is no higher power than a Supreme Court decision.

I am not a believer in any gods or religious texts. Again, that is my right according to our Constitution. I am breaking no laws in being an atheist.

~~~

On a personal level, each individual is free to believe what they want... but that does not give them the right to step in where other person's beliefs and rights are concerned.

Therefore, should I decide to terminate a pregnancy that meets the requirements of said Supreme Court decision, I am legally within my rights to do so, and no one but me can change my mind. And it's not the job of anyone else to try to do so.

~~~

If it's not some form of control based in dogmatic idealism, then what is it? It's already a Constitutional right, and I'm within my legal bounds to have that abortion. Why shouldn't I if I decide it's the best course of action for myself, for the embryo, and for the particular situation I find myself in at this particular time?

This is a decision only I can make. No one else gets to stick their nose in it and tell me what I can or cannot do.

I happen to agree with our Supreme Court's decision regarding abortion. This is my body, my reproductive system, my life, and my decision. And I don't have to justify my decision to terminate a pregnancy to anyone.

What could be simpler than that?

~~~

If you, or anyone else, as individuals, do not hold the same beliefs, you and they are free to avoid obtaining an abortion. There is no law that states anyone has to participate in the termination of an early pregnancy, or abortion.

Takes the guesswork right out of it, doesn't it?

~~~

It seems a little bit odd, and not just a little bit hypocritical to me, to talk about the over-population of the planet... the vast numbers of immigrants and refugees looking to find a better life elsewhere... the eventual depletion of finite planetary resources... global warming and the consequences thereof... the fact that at any given time there are approximately a hundred thousand children awaiting adoption as wards of the states' court systems (and that only speaks to those children within the United States, and does not count the high numbers of children elsewhere in the world)... and yet, there's a push to stop the female portion of our population from owning control over their very own reproductive systems.

I can only wonder at the odd level of concern for embryos, but the lack of any concern voiced for those children already born and suffering, living lives they never asked for, with no hope in sight that they'll ever be adopted into a family that actually wants them, and wants to love and care for them, giving them the security every child has an unspoken, deserving right to.

~~~

Perhaps if we took better care of those children already born into this world, the concern for minuscule masses of cells, or embryos, or zygotes... attached inside uteruses that do not belong to us, the women involved in situations that can only be guessed at... would make more sense. But until humankind makes an effort to clean up the mess of living children already born and part of our world who have no parents or other adult figures to properly care for them, to look to for examples as they develop and grow, going after those females who have decided that abortion is the right thing for them to do is simply hypocritical.

~~~

To recap... according to my Constitutional rights, should I want to terminate a pregnancy, that is my legal choice... and I am the only one who has a say in the matter. No one else's beliefs matter but mine.

Thank you.


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parker25mv

So ironic Roe vs Wade invoked the Fourteenth Amendment. The Fourteenth Amendment was supposed to guarantee equal rights under the law for all. But pro-choicers only want it to apply to women.

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Ziemia(6a)

It is not ironic at all. The 14th amendment is working to give women equal footing. It should be automatic but is still too often an argument.

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momj47(7A)

Roe vs Wade invoked the Fourteenth Amendment. The Fourteenth Amendment was supposed to guarantee equal rights under the law for all. But pro-choicers only want it to apply to women.

You don't seem to understand the Constitution or the 14th Amendment, which isn't surprising. People who have been brainwashed and can't think for themselves tend to misunderstand the Constitution

It's that pesky "Equal Protection Clause". Which means if AMERICAN WOMEN aren't receiving the same protections as men, in terms of health care choices, or jobs, or votes, or any other rights, then the Fourteenth Amendment applies to women

And if BLACK Americans aren't receiving the same protections as white men, then the Fourteenth Amendment applies to black Americans.

And if immigrant Americans aren't receiving the same protections as white men, then the Fourteenth Amendment applies to immigrant Americans.

And you ignore this at your peril. When the day comes that you, parker, find that you are not receiving the protection of the 14th Amendment, it won't be there for you, because people, like you, will have succeeded in destroying our constitutional democracy.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

The Fourteenth Amendment, particularly its first section, is one of the most litigated parts of the Constitution, forming the basis for landmark decisions such as Brown v. Board of Education (1954) regarding racial segregation, Roe v. Wade (1973) regarding abortion, Bush v. Gore (2000) regarding the 2000 presidential election, and Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) regarding same-sex marriage. The amendment limits the actions of all state and local officials, including those acting on behalf of such an official.

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Oaktown

When folks say that no one is pro abortion, is that in reference to posters on this forum? Otherwise I can think of some counter examples?

No birth control? "No problem, if you get pregnant, you can just have an abortion" seems pro abortion to me.

China, not so long ago.

23% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in *all* cases. (Pew Research 2016. As distinct from 34% who believe it should be legal in most cases.) If someone believes in abortion on demand at 34 weeks, or because the woman wants a boy baby instead, seems pro abortion to me?

If I am misunderstanding what people mean by "pro abortion" please let me know. I am not arguing with your definition I am trying to figure out what it is because it seems to me that I am not getting where you are coming from.

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rgreen48(7a)

Oaktown, I'm just curious... did my post above answer your question? Any 'loose threads' of thought?

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jodik_gw

I gotta tell ya... this idea that women use abortion as birth control... you have to know, logically, that this is part of the anti-abortion crowd's propaganda message, right?

I'm sorry, but I don't know one female... not one, in all the years I've been alive... and I'm 56... who has ever utilized abortion as a form of birth control. Not one.

And I'd lay good money down that the majority of the stories told here within this forum about someone who knows someone else that does use or has used abortion as birth control... those are just stories. They are not being entirely truthful, or they don't know the entire story. They're just guessing.

And I never bet unless it's a sure thing. But I do know propaganda when I hear it.

~~~

My guess is that quite a few persons really don't know that much about abortion... like the cost involved, the appointments that have to be made and kept, the fact that there isn't a clinic on every corner and logistics are often difficult... right down to the actual procedure, itself.

Because if they knew all these things, they wouldn't be so quick to throw what is obvious propaganda into the mix.

~~~

The bottom line is this, folks... it's my body, my uterus, and therefore my choice.

~~~

You can avoid the whole issue by not getting yourself into a situation that might require or include an abortion. It's really that simple.

EDUCATE YOURSELF! USE PROTECTION!

~~~

Double down on that protection if you want!

We taught all of our children to use at least two forms of protection... condoms, and spermicidal foam. And that advice was mainly for our sons. Our daughter was also taught that being on the pill or another form of birth control, as well, couldn't hurt as an added option.

~~~

No one I've ever known has been pro-abortion. We are pro-CHOICE. We believe it is a choice that every female should have... the right to make that choice for herself.

Her reasons are not for public explanation. She owes that to no one. She should never have to justify what she does with her own body. She is her own person, owned by no one, and no one has the right to tell her what she can or cannot do... not even her spouse.

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momj47(7A)

When folks say that no one is pro abortion,

NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION

How hard is that for you to understand.

NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION, NO ONE

But millions of Americans, men and women, believe that a woman should have the same rights as men, to make their own healthcare decisions.

No birth control? "No problem,

No, more like "I'm not using a condom, sex just doesn't "feel right" with a condom, but you better not get pregnant".

I wonder how many of the abortions performed last year were done because a husband, boyfriend of father forced the woman to have one. Under threat of violence of death, but, most assuredly, abandonment?

Maybe you don't know this Oaktown, but it takes a sperm and an egg for a zygote to "pop" into existence. And the sperm and the egg come from two different people, a man and a woman

Here, this explains it

How to have sex

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momj47(7A)

Oh please, not the religion hype.

Again.

And more white supremacist thoefascist rhetoric

AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.

AMERICA IS A SECULAR NATION

That pesky First Amendment guarantees it

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purrmichigan(5)

As a result we live in a nation where a large group of people endlessly campaign to defend their right to abort their own children while others react in horror.

You can literally feel and observe our country collapsing in on itself. Its palpable.

Wow. Is that literally what's happening where you live? Private decisions women make are on display to campaign about and anti-abortion people are picketing outside her door? And because of this the country is collapsing?

Not sure why the drama and hyperbole.

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purrmichigan(5)

Houzz has said they don't want these posts. This is an instance where I wish they would step in and moderate.

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Caree

Dems trying to shut down opposing viewpoints again. They do not want anyone thinking outside their LW bubble.

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purrmichigan(5)

Actually, snookum .... 2 is it? Houzz does not want these discussions, most of us know this. They're useless and disintegrate. Blame that on the left if you need to. It's BS, but I don't care what you think.


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Caree

We keep 'hearing' about the right to protest during this time where Dems are on a vile campaign, taking to the streets, setting fires, destroying buildings, shutting others down everywhere they can, boycotting businesses, trying to overturn a democratic election.

Well, remember those equal rights. Others too have every right to defend what they believe in - the rights and lives of helpless babies in the womb who cannot speak for themselves. Even if those people's ideologies are religion based.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Texasranger, I do not agree with your analysis.

Christians made laws regarding slavery, then segregation; endorsed cruel and unusual punishment, and the death penalty; advocated unequal status of women; developed nuclear and chemical warfare: carried out genocides; denied refuge to Jews escaping Nazi Germany.

There was no perfect God-fearing time in this country.

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Caree

This is an instance where I wish they would step in and moderate.

Moderate what? Someone expressing an alternative opinion?

Don't read it if it hurts your ears. Create a safe space outside this thread. You are not being held hostage here.

Just because Dems can't bear to hear the opinions and perspectives of others, or for them to be aired in public, does not mean others do not like to hear them.

Sheesh. WTH

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Caree

No surprise that party is out.

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momj47(7A)

Moderate what? Someone expressing an alternative opinion?

No, proselytizing for some Christian denomination or other.

Religious spam is still SPAM

It's no better than someone trying to sell double-glazed window on the Home Remodeling forum

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cattyles

Being a secular nation protects all of you religious folks to practice as you see fit. I'm a Christian. There are absolutely no hindrances on my Christianity.

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momj47(7A)

I was never taught that America is a Christian nation, I've never believed it was and never said it is.

I'm sure you do, but why did you post this, then?

Americans believe they can survive the death of religion. A people's religion (their faith) creates their civilization, when their faith dies the culture dies, then the people begin to die, history has proved it out.

America once taught truths to the world of dignity, worth and inviolable human rights. This is traceable to Christianity whether we wish to accept it or not.

We have embraced secular ideologies to replace Christianity and grown debased and decadent with a steady, steep moral decline. America has set new records for abortions, violent crimes, incarcerations and drug consumption. The Supreme Court ruling proves secularism is incapable of offering answers to moral problems.

As a result we live in a nation where a large group of people endlessly campaign to defend their right to abort their own children while others react in horror.

You can't have it both ways.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Texasranger, we have politicians who were -- are -- Christians enact horribly repressive and undemocratic legislation. This is what happened, is happening in practice. Christian values have been routinely ignored by self-declared Christians in our government .

As far as the country being divided, history shows that this is as American as apple pie.

What you see as a breakdown of values, others see as expanding the promise of equality, more inclusive as to who participates at all levels of society.

The last thing we need is a return to the witch hunts of the past to protect Christianity -- whether from women accused of using black arts, or persons accused of communist sympathies.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I am showing my prejudices here; Christian values encompass far more than opposing abortion, yet this is the bell that's rung 99% of the time.

Death penalty; unequal sentencing; poverty and its special form of violence; children in poverty and threats of further reducing the safety net; lack of access to healthcare -- where is the outrage on these issues?

Instead we're back to rhetorically beating on women, and never questioning patriarchy that prompts the attacks.

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purrmichigan(5)

Well said, nancy

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purrmichigan(5)

Houzz administrators do not want discussions on abortion. Note the op's caveat.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I don't think that it's the topic of abortion per se, but the heated and usually vitriolic exchanges that happen in abortion threads.

I think that I keep a calm manner in these threads, but others have attacked me in the past for the way I express myself. So maybe it is solely the subject. < shrug >

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Caree

Good lord. Everything on this forum is useless and disintegrates! WTH

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Caree

Dems are able to handle others opinions. Which is why the Democrats have an inclusive, heterogenous group and Repubs are homogeneous. And you, snookums - who think whites should align with whites, are a prime example.

You can't be serious. LOL

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

snookums, if everything on this forum is useless, what keeps bringing you back to comment?

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Caree

One of your own:






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Caree

Nearly every thread on the forum, what we see on the media, demonstrates how intolerant Dems are. Downright mean and foul
responses to anything that conflicts with their own views. It is why
the 'liberal' party is now being referred to as an illiberalism by
academics and others.

Try upping the quality of material you expose yourself to, away from
the divisive MSM and social media. And politicians. There is
another world out there full of great thinkers working peacefully for
progress.

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Caree

This topic is a great example – look
at the treatment of pro-lifers on these threads. Then there is the
mocking of Christians. Of Republicans. Even rural Americans. Is
the common denominator there for you 'white'? Because the disdain for
'white people' that is constantly expressed here is appalling.

If
protesting the way these groups are treated makes me a white ally (for shame), then whatever floats your boat. I just consider them to be people who are members of the community. It is wrong not to consider their views. It is worse to shut them down. And it is despicable to treat them like cra$.

I will say that somehow 'whites' do not
exist in your world of identities - except for vilification. Please
try to create a new bucket for some of our 'white' working class that
are living in poverty. They have lost everything to the globalization
issues. And heck, apparently those loser dummies even vote.

Seeing all the conflict regarding
politics and religion in our own country, even over simple differences of opinion, no, I disagree with the notion that Dems are are more tolerant, inclusive and open minded. They prove they are not every day. Watching their behavior, I honestly do not see how
Dems could possibly manage to get along with people from other cultures, on a more personal level.

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Oaktown

momj47, meanom and others who say no one is pro abortion: sincere question, you do not think China with reported instances of forced abortion provides an example of pro abortion? Or when you say "no one" are you just talking about Americans?

>>>No, more like "I'm not using a condom, sex just doesn't "feel right" with a condom, but you better not get pregnant".

I wonder how many of the abortions performed last year were done because a husband, boyfriend of father forced the woman to have one. Under threat of violence of death, but, most assuredly, abandonment?<<<

Do you think men who express such views are pro abortion or not? I am trying to figure out what you mean. (Who is "no one" and what is "pro abortion" as those terms are being used)

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Oaktown

rgreen48, I missed your earlier post and appreciate your response. It helps to know that there is not a direct scriptural reference. "In the womb" those words in themselves might be consistent with abortions up to a certain point in fetal development, but I understand that there is a broader context that I do not know well. The rest I have heard similar things but will continue to reflect and I have some links from above to read as well.

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Caree

I am not familiar with this guy who is being trashed on another thread but he certainly does speak the truth here.

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Oaktown

nancy_in_venice, personally I think some folks enjoy arguing. So much so, that they will argue with you even if you don't disagree with them ;-)

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momj47(7A)

Oaktown, we are not talking about China, or North Korea, or where ever else you want to take this conversation

Of course we are talking about the US.

Nice try at trying to turn the conversation away from the OP. But it won't work

SMH

How hard is it for you all to accept the fact that, in the US, NO ONE IS PRO ABORTION.

Do you think men who express such views are pro abortion or not? I am trying to figure out what you mean. (Who is "no one" and what is "pro abortion" as those terms are being used)

Of course not, they are just selfish and self-centered, and not smart enough to have given a moment's thought to anything beyond a moment's pleasure. A lot like Donald Trump, I imagine. I wonder if he ever used a condom. Is that why Marla Maples became pregnant?

It seems you all will do or say anything not to face reality.

Saying people are "pro-abortion" is just another RWEx lie that far too many people believe because it advances their intolerant agenda.

Get over it

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rgreen48(7a)

Oaktown... my pleasure.

One of the reasons that the Bible doesn't directly comment on the idea is the thought above that, for brevity, I didn't flesh-out, and concerned the views on the subject in the Ancient Israeli culture.

To the Israelites of the time, giving birth was a blessing. It was an honor bestowed by God himself. In fact, it was the very first command given to humans by God...


“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth
and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the
birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the
earth.”

God's commands changed over time according to his purpose, and prioritization, but during the time that the Bible was written, the idea of killing an unborn child was anathema to God's people. Of course, there were no real surgical procedures.

Fornication (sexual immorality - including sex between people who aren't married to one another) was strictly forbidden. Adultery brought a death sentence, and another of the first teachings to humans was that "a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." (Gen. 2: 24)

Thus, the idea of killing an unborn child was a complete perversion of everything the people held sacred. There was even a law - often called levirate marriage - to ensure that a dead man's family line would continue.

With this understanding, one can truly see why even, as I mentioned in my first comment, the unintentional death of an unborn child was treated in the same way as murder. There was no need to make distinction between birth and pre-birth.

The Bible is not a scientific textbook. The Bible teaches spiritual matters, and through its teachings, we can come to know that God treated/treats life as sacred. To even enter into a relationship that could lead to a new life being brought into the world required wholehearted appreciation for the gift of life, and a lifetime commitment. There was little of more importance to God and his people.

This whole idea of 'pro-choice' would never even be thought of for an instant. It wasn't 'control of women'. The entire society saw childbirth as a sacred gift of God. Again, children were a blessing, not a curse. Some in today's society (at certain times in their lives) see pregnancy as a curse... something of an 'inconvenience'. They refuse to use simple logic and understand that when tab A goes into slot B, a child might be formed. It blows my mind how little that people value their own lives, let alone how much they can, at times, belittle the unborn. Life is worth little. Bombs though... yeah... lots of them.

It is often difficult for me to live in today's society. People can't see past the pleasure and comfort of 'right now!'.

One place known in the universe to hold life, and humans treat life as less than the 'miracle' it is.

Here's an interesting thing to consider... put a baby in any person's hands. Only the very, very mentally diseased would hold it with any less than the greatest of care. So delicate is life... and an infant embodies that supreme and precious delicateness in its purest essence. So amazing.

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rgreen48(7a)

One word to something in a few comments...


Although God sees life as precious, and abortion is detestable in his eyes, he is also supremely loving and merciful. If any are religious, and they feel regret over things in the past... please remember that God understands what we are going through in this imperfect life. He sees us as we can be, and he purposefully puts our mistakes behind him so as to not look at what we may have done in the past.


1 Pet. 5: 7... "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

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momj47(7A)

Although God sees life as precious, and abortion is detestable

And you know this how?............................

LOL

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purrmichigan(5)

Nearly every thread on the forum demonstrates how intolerant Dems are.

Oh, grow up. This is what you whine about every single post. You take projecting to a whole new level.

Sooner or later everyone outs themselves. Posters who refuse to use acceptable terminology such as pro-choice show they are rigidly dogmatic with no real interest in discussion with those who have different opinions.

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momj47(7A)

I've never said god doesn't exist.

Where did you get that idea?

Be careful, be very careful making suppositions

If one man says he talks to an invisible being, he's called crazy. If a hudrend men say they talk to an invisible being they're called a cult. But if millions say it, they're a religion. And the man once called crazy is now suddenly the prophet

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Ann

PM, you're exhausting and you're everywhere! I remember when you said how inappropriate you thought political talk was, lol!

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parker25mv

You can agree that women should have the right to abortion, BUT...

Has anyone here ever actually taken a look at the Roe vs. Wade majority opinion??

There were so many flaws with their reasoning and it was poorly thought out, obvious Judge Blackmun who wrote it was just trying to pull excuses out of a hat to justify the ruling they wanted to make.

Because McCorvey ("Roe") lied about being gang raped, it tipped 1 or 2 of the judges in her favor.

5 judges said yes, 4 said no.

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rgreen48(7a)

"And you know this how?"

Because the context of my comments concern the God of the Bible - The God that the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures say brought life into the world. The one who took responsibility for his choice.

As I mentioned in my first comment above, in God's law there is a difference between murder and manslaughter.

Basically, while manslaughter is the unintentional killing of another human, murder is intentional. There was a provision for manslaughter that the perpetrator could receive a measure of 'mercy'. However, for murder, God's declared penalty was death without a provision of mercy.

However, in the case of the unintentional killing of an unborn child, there was NO PROVISION OF MERCY. In God's eyes it is treated the same as murder.

My comment you quote from though, briefly explores God's merciful understanding of imperfect humans. Think of King David. Even though he once ordered the killing of an innocent man - and although David was punished - in David's repentance God saw fit to still find good in him.

So, God saw the killing of the unborn as detestable. It was worthy of the penalty of death. Although we don't live under that Law in today's society, we have that record of God's view of acceptable, and unacceptable action. In the Bible we find God's view of matters.

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momj47(7A)

Has anyone here ever actually taken a look at the Roe vs. Wade majority opinion??

Yes, have you?

This will make it easy for you to understand

The Court asserted that the "right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the district court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy."

Justice Blackmun's majority opinion explicitly rejected a fetal "right to life" argument. The Court instead recognized the right to an abortion as a fundamental right included within the guarantee of personal privacy. As a result, regulations limiting abortion had to be justified by a "compelling state interest," and legislative enactments regulating abortion had to be narrowly tailored to meet the compelling interests; in other words, Justice Blackmun applied a strict scrutiny analysis to abortion regulations

You do know, of course, that Jane Roe (Norma McCorvey,) never had an abortion, but had the baby and give it up for adoption.

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purrmichigan(5)

Good thing I have no interest in your opinions, Ann.

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momj47(7A)

So some men write a book, and declare they know all about a certain god, and then some other men get together and throw out all the stuff they don't like, and you believe it?

SMH

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rgreen48(7a)

"So some men write a book, and declare they know all about a certain god,
and then some other men get together and throw out all the stuff they
don't like, and you believe it?"

I wouldn't phrase it as you did, but I find my faith in the Bible's veracity, as well as the value of what it teaches me, to be of greater spiritual import than your mocking dismissal of another person's belief system. But, meh... I would love to see this change, but unfortunately I've learned to consider the source when you respond to my comments.

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Roseberry Ranch

I find it sad that so many are unwilling to personally experience God.

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momj47(7A)

I find it sad that so many are unwilling to personally experience God.

I find it distasteful that you would post such a comment

It's inappropriate proselytizing, and has no place on this forum.

Off to church with you now.

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Caree

Oh, grow up. This is what you whine about every single post. You take projecting to a whole new level.

I watch the show. Here, endless pages full of hate and ridicule. 98% Dem content. Certainly you realize it will make an impression on people.

I'm not projecting anything other than Dems behavior up onto the white screen for them to see. Hopeless as it is for them to open their eyes to their behavior or their minds to the perspectives of others. To see what they have done to the country with all the hatefulness and divisive identity politics that pit people against each other rather than bring people together.

I do a lot of reading and listen to intelligent discussions with a wide variety of perspectives and opinions so have good company in my observations. So I am not the least bit interested in what hate filled, narrow minded Dems think of me or the slurs I have been called here. I can also see how Dems treat some of the always polite conservative posters on the board who air their reasonable opinions and perspectives. Or people who just pop in to ask a few questions.

Personally knowing some Republicans who do not hide in the closet, I have listened to them talk openly so know that they are not xenophobes, the KKK or white supremacists lurking to pounce. That is absurd. There really is another world out there full of good people with different points of view and other approaches to accomplishing common goals.

Oppressing and demeaning others is intolerable. It just is. And I will continue to whine about how poorly Dems treat groups of people who do not meet with their approval.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"There really is another world out there full of good people with different points of view."

Of course there are some wonderful people out there; this is a very diverse country with many different perspectives and that is part of what makes it great. But pointing out the bad ones does not take away from those good ones. And we will not fail to point out the bad ones. Because being able to speak up without fear of reprisal is another part of what makes this country great.

"And I will continue to whine about how poorly Dems treat groups of people who do not meet with their approval."

And I hope that you would equally point out about how poorly some conservatives treat groups of people who do not meet with their approval. Cause that happens too and failure to acknowledge would be wrong, don't you think?

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Caree

'The RWEx attack Democrats, the rest of us attack racist, sexist, intolerant, ugly, fearful ideas.'

No momj, you gloss over. Dems believe that they are morally superior. Emotion is not fact.

They attack anyone with a differing opinion. Or a different approach to the same problems. Or a different world view in the case of globalization issues that have been killing America and hurting its own people of all races and ethnicities. They just cannot comprehend anything outside of their identity group doctrine. This is well documented. As is their hostile approach.

Dems assume differing opinions are based on xenophobia and racism and sexism when they are not. That is your opinion. It is the Dem's cognitive filter, which has become its campaign slogan. The only ammo they seem to have. Hurling slurs, accusations and shaming is their game.

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Caree

'The RWEx attack Democrats, the rest of us attack racist, sexist, intolerant, ugly, fearful ideas.'

Dems do in fact attack Republicans. How can you possibly say they do not. Look around this forum, fgs. Remember your favorite derogatory term for them, RWNJ? Now there is FRW and nutties, everyone else is a RWex or a white supremacist, a host of other names.

Dems also attack 'whites', mock and oppress Christians, abhor pro-lifers, make fun of rural people. There is a lot of strange anti-American talk.

Then there is all the vile treatment of men (sexists who hate and want to control women, old men, old white men, old Southern white men, a big pile of old white bones). On Abortion, the enemy is evil old women hating white men trying to control women. As if white men or Christians are the only people who want to protect the unborn.

I mean really. You are not making one bit of sense.

I do not care if people are tired of hearing about it. The rest of us are tired of Dems wrecking the country with their hysteria and divisive identity politics that pit people against each other rather than bringing people together.

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Caree

I have no idea who my Republican friends voted for. It is none of my business for one thing. And I am not one to disassociate with people over political or other opinions or different ways of looking at things. I like diversity.

I value open honest relationships where people can be themselves, talk freely and discuss the complexities of life. One does not learn anything or solve problems by living in an echo chamber.

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momj47(7A)

Dems believe that they are morally superior.

We know we are morally superior.

We didn't sell our souls to the Cheeto Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, or whatever the going rate is this year

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Oaktown

Be careful, be very careful making suppositions

I think it would be nice if everyone might get on board with that suggestion. Disappointed texasranger2 deleted the posts as I was going to look at some of the links. As I heard a kindergartner say recently, "snoozed and loozed." ;-)

Everyone have a nice rest of the day!

[ETA thank you for clarifying what you mean, momj47, that helped]

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SaraM

I don't this sneaky way of inserting political topics in garden forums, but need to comment. Norma McCorvey (aka Roe), regretted her involvement in Roe v. Wade, and realized later she had been used for a political purpose to force legalization. She was a pro-life advocate. People don't mention that too often, because it is an inconvenient fact. Protect and respect life. Pray often.

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ann_t

"I find it sad that so many are unwilling to personally experience God."

And I find it sad when any women is controlled by her husband. Stepford wife. Explains again why you voted for donny. Just doing what you are told.


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purrmichigan(5)

I don't know why an intelligent poster here would think that in the era of Trump and Company that there would or could be calm discussion about politics. It hasn't been politics as usual since Trump's campaign began. Multiply that by many when an op is about abortion. Opposing sides probably never "discuss" abortion quietly and politely for all the obvious reasons.

That's the deal when you decide to add your comments here. Hardly the place for most people and some are here only because Trump is president. Which is good for Houzz apparently, because otherwise HT would not exist on a home decorating site.

What those on the right refuse to acknowledge is that the passive aggressive, silly, mean-spirited, crude and most of all controlling RW here is every bit as aggressive and nasty as the left can be.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about abortion with a pro-choice advocate - don't use terminology that is provoking. And if you post about abortion, expect the back and forth to be rough.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

It hasn't been politics as usual since Obama. Trump just took it to a whole new level.

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purrmichigan(5)

Dems assume differing opinions are based on xenophobia and racism and sexism when they are not.

This is ^^^^ what alternative facts are all about. You've described what KAC Bannon and Steve Miller do. People who stay home a lot and watch newtainment are the ones most susceptible. Believe in alternative facts at your peril.

We recognize those evils and call them out - frankly, the more it bothers the RW, the more clear it is that we're right.

The FRW is either in denial or is enjoying their minute in power. Both ways they're deluding themselves.


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terrene(5b MA)

Texasranger There is a lot of hatred on this forum from the liberal side for anyone
who holds an opposing view on this issue and for Christianity in
general...
I refuse to use the term 'Pro-Choice' ever again. I deleted my previous posts from this thread.

I am socially liberal, but try to present my point of view based upon a mix of personal experience, facts, and reason, not emotion and histrionics, let alone hatefulness.

Besides if there are hateful people on this forum, they likely exist on both sides of an issue.

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arcy_gw

When speaking of killing/not killing;life or death majority rule or popular vote cannot win the day. Right is right and killing our future, human beings, creation that we by our actions set into motion is wrong. If it weren't then the Nazi's were just living their heart and slave owners were just being true to their needs and we are DOOMED.

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jodik_gw

How is it "morally superior" to want/have control over one's own body?

~~~

Let's begin by defining what's moral? Who's standard of morality should we use, since morals are subjective... which means my values might differ from those of someone else's?

~~~

Who aborts children? Murder and infanticide are illegal. I could have sworn we've been over this a time or two... at least. The termination of an embryo or zygote are not murder. The choice to terminate a pregnancy, up to a specific point, is a Constitutional right, fully legal.

~~~

Why does the notion of a god come up in almost every discussion?

Don't feel sorry for us... we don't want your pity. And if that's part of the kind of relationship with a god we'd have to have, then the answer is... no, thanks.

Millions of people do just fine without any dogmatic system.

Some of us were forced into dogma as infants... but now that we're adults, able to think for ourselves, some of us have decided that the very idea of a god simply doesn't fit into our reality.

If such things work for you... more power to ya.

They don't work for me, and I resent the implication that without some dogmatic belief, I'm to be pitied and felt sorry for. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not an empty, soulless being with no direction in life.

It might surprise some people to learn that throwing off the mantle of religious belief is the very thing that made me feel lighter, happier, much less stressed. Dumping all that baggage of guilt, fear, control, etc. was the best decision I ever made.

~~~

When we say "no one is pro-abortion", it means that we hope women have access to options and opportunity to practice safe sex so she doesn't have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy... as in access to birth control, education, etc...

But we're still glad that our Supreme Court saw fit to include our right to choose as part of our Constitutional rights.


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rob333 (zone 7a)

I am white, Christian, and conservative and I back Roe v. Wade. So all excuses and parties aside, use common sense people. I even believe in life at conception. And have had an abortion. So there you go. You can embody all that's right and wrong with the legislation, live it personally, have God in your life, and let it exist. It's not YOUR right on which someone is infringing. It's their right to do what is wrong, without your intervention. If your reason is it's murder, then you know, have faith, that God will punish accordingly. Stay out of other people's business. Seriously.

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ann_t

Leave it to Rob to be the voice of reason. Thank you Rob.

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rgreen48(7a)

I think what we are seeing at work here, at least for those who strive to lead a Christian life, is the admonishment Jesus gave to his followers.


At John 15: 19, he said...


"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but
because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
therefore the world hates you."


This attitude of Jesus, and that which he imparted to his followers, was so important to him, that in prayer to his Father on the night he was arrested he earnestly petitioned his Father with the words...



“I
have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the
world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your
word.
Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For
I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received
them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have
believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming
to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me,
that they may be one, even as we are one. While
I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I
have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of
destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that
they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that
they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have
sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I
in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the
world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father,
I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I
am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before
the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I
made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known,
that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in
them.”


Notice the theme of that prayer...


That those who would choose to become Christ's followers would be separate from the world. Why? As I, for one, have often said on this forum (and if any desire the scriptures, feel free to ask...,) because Satan is the ruler of this world. In the Christian perspective, whenever a human(s) decides to rule themselves, they become followers of Satan. Christians already have a King. His name is Jesus. Any ruling authority beyond that is anathema to a Christian.


So, if a Christian chooses to become part of the world, they are choosing the world as a friend. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Why? Well, at the heart of the issue is that God is the only one with legitimacy to rule. Just think back to the original sin in the Garden of Eden. What was the sin? Eating of fruit? No. It was the disobeying of God. It was choosing to install ourselves as rulers, and declaring that apart from God, we can decide right from wrong for ourselves.


Imagine your child who, before it is mature, decides to do anything it wants without listening to your advice. Not only will it cause you and others around it grief, it will make many, many mistakes that were completely avoidable if they were only humble enough to listen.


Then imagine it takes your car and wrecks it. Then it wrecks your house... etc... etc...


In short... from a Christian perspective, the world stands apart from God. As a whole, they manifest the spirit that is embodied by Satan. (Gal. 5: 16 - 21)


If a Christian strives to follow God, and joins in with this world, they are put into a position where they might vote for someone who represents them in the Government. What if that representative believes abortion (murder in the eyes of God) should be legal? They now represent your opinion, and that opinion is against God. There are many such issues, not just abortion.


This is why Jesus told his followers that they would have to be separate from the world, and why later Bible writers told us that "friendship with the world is enmity with God".


We know that the person who desires to live a life without belief in God has desired to determine for themselves what is right and wrong. They believe that morality is subjective. But, this is not the way for a Christian. We understand morality to emanate from our Father. He alone has the right to determine what is right and wrong. He knows our make up, and he understands our needs and our frailties. He is the objective morality. He is Love.


In this case... abortion does not fulfill Love. If we were truly aware of our choices, made mature decisions, and sought the betterment of ourselves and everyone/thing around us, we would not engage in the action that conceives a life that we would love, without being ready to take responsibility for that life. That is Love. We certainly would not kill that life.


The Christian may not take part in this world, and thus at this time, they - like God - do not interfere with the choices of the world, but they would certainly not condone murder. If they take part in government, they are put in a position to either be okay with murder, or vote against it, and therefore try to make a secular government fit a Christian mold. This is a contradiction. The Christian becomes split in their allegiance, and becomes a hypocrite.


Again, if any are not Christian in their belief, this will not match their perspective. However, if a person endeavors to lead a Christian life, perhaps they should contemplate Jesus' heartfelt prayer to his Father about not being part of the world. They would benefit from not only working along with that prayer, but seeking to find others that feel the same way. It's each person's choice to live how they wish, it's nice though when each is honest with themselves and others. Harmony in belief and action is a wonderful characteristic.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

rgreen, keep your admonitions to yourself. God gave us freewill, and you cannot supersede His will.

ETA: rgreen deleted his/her post as he/she often does. It may show back up, and may not. But it was there. I'm sure you all know this.

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SaraM

The title of this string is incorrect- and it is an example of liberals wanting to make us believe their way, is the way of the people. It is not, and more people are pro-life, and more people are conservative than they want to portray. Just because liberals are loud and scream at people doesn't make it everyone's belief. I know they are trying, but it doesn't work that way.

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rgreen48(7a)

"rgreen, keep your admonitions to yourself. God gave us freewill, and you cannot supersede His will.

rgreen deleted his post as he often does. It may show back up, and may not. But it was there. I'm sure you all know this."

rob... perhaps you would benefit from taking momj47's advice above and 'be careful of making suppositions.' I did not delete my comment. Probably, as is often the case, someone who doesn't want people to understand the principles I discuss to be known, flagged my comment.

In that vein, I shall just re-post it for those who are tolerant, and open minded about learning things they might be interested in...

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rgreen48(7a)

I think what we are seeing at work here,
at least for those who strive to lead a Christian life, is the
admonishment Jesus gave to his followers.

At John 15: 19, he said...

"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but
because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
therefore the world hates you."

This attitude of Jesus, and that which he imparted to his followers,
was so important to him, that in prayer to his Father on the night he
was arrested he earnestly petitioned his Father with the words...

“I
have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the
world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your
word.
Now they know that everything that you have given me is
from you. For
I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received
them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have
believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for
the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All
mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming
to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me,
that they may be one, even as we are one. While
I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I
have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of
destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming
to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy
fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has
hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the
world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you
keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not
of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you
sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for
their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in
truth.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe
in me through their word, that
they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that
they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have
sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that
they may be one even as we are one, I
in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the
world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Father,
I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I
am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before
the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world
does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I
made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known,
that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in
them.”

Notice the theme of that prayer...

That those who would choose to become Christ's followers would be
separate from the world. Why? As I, for one, have often said on this
forum (and if any desire the scriptures, feel free to ask...,) because
Satan is the ruler of this world. In the Christian perspective, whenever
a human(s) decides to rule themselves, they become followers of Satan.
Christians already have a King. His name is Jesus. Any ruling authority
beyond that is anathema to a Christian.

So, if a Christian chooses to become part of the world, they are
choosing the world as a friend. Friendship with the world is enmity with
God. Why? Well, at the heart of the issue is that God is the only one
with legitimacy to rule. Just think back to the original sin in the
Garden of Eden. What was the sin? Eating of fruit? No. It was the
disobeying of God. It was choosing to install ourselves as rulers, and
declaring that apart from God, we can decide right from wrong for
ourselves.

Imagine your child who, before it is mature, decides to do anything
it wants without listening to your advice. Not only will it cause you
and others around it grief, it will make many, many mistakes that were
completely avoidable if they were only humble enough to listen.

Then imagine it takes your car and wrecks it. Then it wrecks your house... etc... etc...

In short... from a Christian perspective, the world stands apart from
God. As a whole, they manifest the spirit that is embodied by Satan.
(Gal. 5: 16 - 21)

If a Christian strives to follow God, and joins in with this world,
they are put into a position where they might vote for someone who
represents them in the Government. What if that representative believes
abortion (murder in the eyes of God) should be legal? They now represent
your opinion, and that opinion is against God. There are many such
issues, not just abortion.

This is why Jesus told his followers that they would have to be
separate from the world, and why later Bible writers told us that "friendship with the world is enmity with God".

We know that the person who desires to live a life without belief in
God has desired to determine for themselves what is right and wrong.
They believe that morality is subjective. But, this is not the way for a
Christian. We understand morality to emanate from our Father. He alone
has the right to determine what is right and wrong. He knows our make
up, and he understands our needs and our frailties. He is the objective
morality. He is Love.

In this case... abortion does not fulfill Love. If we were truly
aware of our choices, made mature decisions, and sought the betterment
of ourselves and everyone/thing around us, we would not engage in the
action that conceives a life that we would love, without being ready to
take responsibility for that life. That is Love. We certainly would not
kill that life.

The Christian may not take part in this world, and thus at this time,
they - like God - do not interfere with the choices of the world, but
they would certainly not condone murder. If they take part in
government, they are put in a position to either be okay with murder, or
vote against it, and therefore try to make a secular government fit a
Christian mold. This is a contradiction. The Christian becomes split in
their allegiance, and becomes a hypocrite.

Again, if any are not Christian in their belief, this will not match
their perspective. However, if a person endeavors to lead a Christian
life, perhaps they should contemplate Jesus' heartfelt prayer to his
Father about not being part of the world. They would benefit from not
only working along with that prayer, but seeking to find others that
feel the same way. It's each person's choice to live how they wish, it's
nice though when each is honest with themselves and others. Harmony in
belief and action is a wonderful characteristic.

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Oaktown

The question Pew Research asked was "Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?" My answer would be not. If the survey question had been "do you support Roe v Wade" I would say what do you mean; looking at the responses here it seems that people have different views as to what that means. (This is tongue in cheek!)

In these kinds of discussions (generally speaking, I not referring to this thread) seems to me like part of the room is speaking Swahili and another part Japanese, with little interest in mingling or even attempts at translation.

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momj47(7A)

Why isn't the forum refreshing?

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rgreen48(7a)

"... looking at the responses here it seems that people have different views as to what that means.

In these kinds of discussions (generally speaking, I not referring to
this thread) seems to me like part of the room is speaking Swahili and
another part Japanese, with little interest in mingling or even attempts
at translation."


I think this is a reasonable observation.


Since I am one of those who receives a lot of comments about my perspective, I would just like to say that your observation is why I do my best to phrase my comments in a way that makes it obvious to the discerning reader that my posts on topics such as these come from a certain perspective. I really have no desire to tell people how to believe.


When my perspective intersects with political beliefs, I even try to emphasize my neutrality. Giving my perspective on such issues does not indicate participation in the political sphere. Each person has a mind, and each uses it as they see fit. Someone's differing perspective does not necessarily mean that they are antagonistic. Unfortunately, this is often missed.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Why isn't the forum refreshing?"


I've noticed that things have been slow the last few days. At one point I thought it was my connection, but all other sites were fine. I don't know if Houzz is making changes, or if there's a server issue, but it's possible.

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Ann

I posted a new thread this morning, but I'm not even seeing it. I wonder if they are reviewing threads before they "release" them?

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Neutrality. You are anything but neutral rgreen. You should stop claiming it. Truly.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Neutrality. You are anything but neutral rgreen. You should stop claiming it. Truly."


rob, you would have to defend that accusation.


Just because a person doesn't take sides in a certain affair, doesn't mean they are indifferent.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

No, I don't. Anyone can see you are not neutral in any way.

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blfenton

rgreen believes that she/he is neutral when in fact I don't think he/she has any opinion at all on any of the topics. The only threads rgreen takes part in is those in which they can cherry-pick bible passages and stick them in to prove some unknown point - basically trying to stick square pegs into round holes. Their posts tend to lose context hence the constant deleting and reposting of posts.

Just my opinion, but I also just ignore them.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

I disagree. When there is a discussion between "christians" and those who are not, those who are not are seen as following the ways of the "world". So while not saying it, he's still saying it. He's against those in the world and it shows. Plainly. Why else would he go around preaching about the ways of the world? He finds them wrong. Does that help me get my point across better blfenton?


I don't find anything they say to be Christ-directed, of God's ways, or kind in any way.

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rgreen48(7a)

"rgreen believes that she/he is neutral when in fact I don't think he/she has any opinion at all on any of the topics."

That is quite insightful of you. Thank you. The thing is, I do have personal opinions, but because of my political neutrality, I do not forward them as a political opinion. The most I do is endeavor to give the Bible's view on specific issues. As far as whether I accomplish that feat faithfully, well... anyone is free to present another Biblical opinion with references. It's rare though, that people do present another well-documented case.

The effect of neutrality, is to not take sides, and thus be seen as not having an opinion on the political aspect of an issue. However, an issue like abortion is not just political... so, of course I have a personal opinion. As far as Roe vs. Wade, as I said in my first comment, I have no opinion to present. But... I do have a knowledge of what the Bible says on the subject of abortion, and any person who considers themselves Christian usually has more than a passing thought about what God says about that issue, as well as whether Christians should take part in politics.

When giving the Bible's view, scriptural references are the key. A person can say they disagree, and they are free to do so, but to present an alternative Biblical view, and to be taken as a faithful account, scriptures should be presented. If there are no scriptures to reinforce the statements, well... then anyone can claim the Bible says anything.

If you want to say you saw aliens, and if you want to be taken seriously, you should be ready with proof.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Norma McCorvey, aka "Jane Roe" of RvW fame, did a 180 and turned pro-life activist until she passed. Interesting.

"I'm a liberal and I'm pro-choice .......... except when it comes to schools, guns, trade, healthcare, energy, smoking, union membership, light bulbs, plastic bags, Walmart, hunting, what kind of food you can eat, what kind of cars you can drive ......." ~ Unknown


Al

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Ziemia(6a)

Ahhh. Is it then true that everyone who wants to prohibit all access is a conservative?

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jodik_gw

Good god, is my mouse's scroll button getting a workout!

~~~

Robin is correct, and I fully respect and support the choices she's made. From what I know of her, reading her posts for as long as I have been, I think I can say with some truth that she wrestled with a very difficult decision, but in the end made the choice that was right for her at the time in question. And I have to respect her for that.

Although, from my own point of view I don't feel anyone will be "punished" for making the decisions that best fit their own lives.

The key words here are "own lives". With or without a dogmatic belief, we have free will... and we have freedoms and rights bestowed upon us by our Constitution, as well.

~~~

I think the one thing I can't figure out is how my actions or those of others affect anyone else, and why they're so adamant about having that control over what I and others do, or what we decide.

It seems to me as though there are some folks who simply aren't happy unless they've got their fingers in everyone else's pie.

~~~

I'm liberal, and I'm pro-choice... unless what you're doing is or will have an impact on my life or those of my progeny.

If I choose to terminate a pregnancy, it only affects me. If I choose to pollute the environment, it affects everyone. See the difference?

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momj47(7A)

Norma McCorvey, aka "Jane Roe" of RvW fame, did a 180 and turned pro-life activist until she passed. +

I don't think Ms. McCorvey was anything until she stopped drinking and got her life under control. She was 21 and pregnant for the third time, so she was probably desperate.

McCorvey revealed herself to the press as being "Jane Roe" soon after the decision's issuance and stated that she sought an abortion because she was unemployable and greatly depressed.

She gave birth to the baby and gave it up for adoption.

The case was driven by the lawyers (thank goodness). Ms McCorvey never attended a single trial.

Ms. McCorvey didn't "turn" until 1994. More than 20 years after Roe v. Wade

Don't make her out to be something she wasn't.

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Roseberry Ranch

If what you say is true, then thank God she woke up to what she did.



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purrmichigan(5)

Hypocritical.

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momj47(7A)

Look it up. It's not hard to become informed, especially in 2017.

Do you expect everyone else to do the heavy lifting for you?

Or is that if the information doesn't appear in a right wing misinformation site, you don't believe it?

And thank god that women in the US still have the right to make a choice

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Roseberry Ranch

Yeah, you're probably right Nobody should ever be sorry for killing their baby. (Unless they have a conscience)


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Roseberry Ranch

Look it up. It's not hard to become informed, especially in 2017.

Do you expect everyone else to do the heavy lifting for you?

Or is that if the information doesn't appear in a right wing misinformation site, you don't believe it?

No, I don't expect anyone o do anything for me. But what I do have is a real life with other things to do besides sit on my rump in front of a screen all day, all night.

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momj47(7A)

If you are this interested in the topic, and Ms. McCorvey, then you should be willing to spend a bit of time to do a little bit of searching for information and facts.

Especially facts.

The hallmark of the RWEx forum members seems to be intellectual laziness.

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palisades_

If your reason is it's murder, then you know, have faith

Nowadays, sadly approx. 99% of it is 'justified' murder. The emotional turmoil lasts a lifetime for those who involved because deep down, they knew it's wrong regardless of reasons they rationalized or were goaded and talked into. People rightly condemn the holocaust, but this is worse than the holocaust. The so-called 'pro choice' responses here are out of touch with reality. Pro-choice is an empty word. Everyone makes choices every day, including to abort or not abort a life. So for those who favor abortion except for rape, incest, accidents, genetic defects, health risk to the mothers, or other pregnancy complications, they are pro abortion, 99% of the time.

hallmark of the RWEx forum members

There are no RWEx forum members, but there is at least one LWEx forum member.

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Roseberry Ranch

The hallmark of the RWEx forum members seems to be intellectual laziness.

Awwwwww gee whiz MomJ, wrong yet again. We simply have real lives with live people in a real world. I recommend it highly. There is absolutely nothing about me that is lazy I any way, shape or form.

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purrmichigan(5)

Gosh, thanks for telling us how it is. Wisdom!! :)))

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purrmichigan(5)

so you admit you're extreme, RR.

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Ann

How childish, PM.

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youngquinn_gw

what I have noticed about RR and A is that they very rarely do any work ...to add substance to their posts. There are few articles...and facts to back up what they say.....Just a quick retort or add lib from their own personal experience. What they should realise is that to be taken seriously...you must do the work!

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Roseberry Ranch

so you admit you're extreme, RR.

Uh no, not at all. Just because I don' sit here in front of a screen 24/7 doesn't exactly say I'm extreme. It says I have a life. But maybe having a real life is a bit extreme to liberals.

Liberals don't accept facts, so why bother producing then at all in here????


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purrmichigan(5)

And yet .... here you are.

Clue: if you weren't extreme you would have figured "RWEx forum members" didn't apply to you.

Capisce???

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

pot/kettle

Al

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Roseberry Ranch

But y'all seem to consider anyone with an IQ in triple digits as RWex,

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purrmichigan(5)

You both should hang out. Try harder next time.

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Roseberry Ranch

Good night, sweet dreams

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youngquinn_gw

do some work RR if you want to contribute...not just the quick retort.

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Linda(8)

Brought back, good!

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jodik_gw

I think maybe we should start a count, like we've done with global warming threads...

I'm not sure how many times this announcement makes it, but...

KILLING BABIES IS ILLEGAL. INFANTICIDE IS ILLEGAL.

Abortion is neither of those things.

~~~

And then we have those posters trying to tell us how we feel, or how we're supposed to feel about making such a decision... as though they've gone so far as to crawl inside our brains and hearts to our very consciences. I wonder which orifice they feel inclined to enter from?

Yeah, yeah... we're all gonna burn in hell... fire and brimstone for eternity... because some propaganda written by patriarchal humans told you so.

~~~

So... let me get this straight... abortion is okay, as long as it meets with your personally selected specifications, is that correct?

And with that personal opinion rolling around in your head, you deem the rest of us who think in terms of having our own say, making our own choices where our bodies and reproduction are concerned, and following the law, pro-abortion 99% of the time?

Wow... you must know everything there is to know about everything when it comes to the human condition and how females are supposed to feel.

Except... you missed something. We don't all think or feel the same way you do. We are each what is termed an "individual", with the ability and the right to hold our own opinions... that do not have to match yours in any way, shape or form.


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ann_t

Yeah, you're probably right Nobody should ever be sorry for killing their baby. (Unless they have a conscience)

Did you have an abortion that you are now sorry for?

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momj47(7A)

Useful idiots spewing lies, year after year

But y'all seem to consider anyone with an IQ in triple digits as RWex,

Anyone who thinks they have an IQ in triple digits and who believes the lies being told by the forced-birth advocates or Mr. Trump - who has now publicly announced that he will cut most, if not all the programs put in place over the years for babies and children, is so misguided, so deluded, as to be beyond redemption

Do you have even a shred of human decency?

Do you like to watch babies die? Is it the thrill you imagined it would be?


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rob333 (zone 7a)

The emotional
turmoil lasts a lifetime for those who involved because deep down, they
knew it's wrong regardless of reasons they rationalized or were goaded
and talked into


Uh no, that's completely wrong. I don't know a single woman who could've been talked into or out of it when they had to make the decision. It's one that takes a great deal of deciding and thinking. No goading or talking them into something they're against. That's an uneducated thought.

I'll educate you (you'll have to click on the links if you want specific specifics): I had a health condition, which doesn't excuse it, but explains my abortion. I had looked death in the face at the age of 26 and at 27, I wasn't interested in going through it all over again (the repeat part. I was told not to get pregnant again for 12-24 months, but I did in month 13). I am not in "turmoil", at all.

Believe it or not, they're going to debate this in my son's class. He and a couple other classmates (the ones who aren't peer pressured) picked the side of keeping Roe v Wade (on his own. He's seventeen and I don't attend school with him). He knows barring women won't stop abortions, but it will increase death among the women. I didn't know he didn't know, but I told him, "you know I've had an abortion, don't you? You can interview me if you want" . Last Monday, we sat down and talked about my personal background, what led up to it, and the consequences. His only question, did I regret it? My answer was, and you need to get this, deeply:

"I regret the child that could've been (and actually, that's not true, I've had five miscarriages, chances are great it would've happened again), but even looking back, I would still do it, I'd make the same choice".

I'm not in turmoil, and nothing would've talked me out of doing it.

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palisades_

Rob333. Instead of trying to educate me, I suggest you re read my entire post that it was not about you.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

I am talking about your comment. Maybe your comment should've been different.

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momj47(7A)

it's wrong regardless of reasons they rationalized or were goaded and talked into.

So women aren't smart enough to make their own decisions?

Wow, you triple digit IQ monsters are just amazing.

You really do hate women.

Is this why RWEX women allow RWEx MEN to step in and take away a woman's right to choose?

Not any more. That ended with the 19th Amendment

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momj47(7A)

Pro-choice is an empty word. Everyone makes choices every day, including to abort or not abort a life

You seem to be contradicting yourself

So the woman who was raped last night, and will discover in a few weeks that she might be pregnant "made a choice"?

The thirteen year old girl who was molested and will discover, before she has her first period, that she is pregnant, "made a choice"?

The woman who was drugged and assaulted by her husband, and will realize in a few weeks that she, too, is pregnant, "made a choice"?

Wow.

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Caree

MJ:

'Pro-choice is an empty word. Everyone makes choices every day, including to abort or not abort a life'

'You seem to be contradicting yourself

So the woman who was raped last night, and will discover in a few weeks that she might be pregnant "made a choice"?

The thirteen year old girl who was molested and will discover, before she has her first period, that she is pregnant, "made a choice"?

The woman who was drugged and assaulted by her husband, and will realize in a few weeks that she, too, is pregnant, "made a choice"?

Wow.'

~~~~~~~~~

Then there is what pallisades actually said. This goes on with Trump in the media all the time. The old fake news myth.

pallisades:

'Pro-choice is an empty word. Everyone makes choices every day, including to abort or not abort a life. So for those who favor abortion except for rape, incest, accidents, genetic defects, health risk to the mothers, or other pregnancy complications, they are pro abortion, 99% of the time.;

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Ziemia(6a)

To abort or not is NOT an every day decision. I have never been faced with that decision. IF you are are looking for disagreement then you choose to not use the correct terminology; you use terminology that is inflammatory. Pro-choice with respect to women's rights is far from an empty word.

You can say this is analogous to 'fake news'. Doesn't make it so.

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momj47(7A)

So for those who favor abortion except for rape, incest, accidents, genetic defects, health risk to the mothers, or other pregnancy complications, they are pro abortion, 99% of the time.;

No, why is it so hard for some people to understand.

NO ONE IS PRO ABORTION

That is just ugly RWEx rhetoric that you have chosen to spew, over and over again.

Pay attention, pay close attention

No matter what drives a woman to consider abortion, it's still a CHOICE that each woman should be allowed to make for herself

And the RWEx want to take away a woman's ability to choose birth control, too..

Of course, it's all right with you to be 99% anti-child, and anti-family.

You seem to approve, 100%, in destroying the safety net that enables vulnerable people to actually eat food, live in a home, have clothes get an education.

Because, after all, once a woman has been forced to give birth, neither the child, nor the mother matters any more.

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Roseberry Ranch

So, with so many rapes happening, necessitating said abortions, why is the left constantly crucifying police officers that are trying to do their job to protect and serve.

I was faced with a decision to abort or not to abort. Her genetic father wanted her dead, but murder was never something I was willing to do for convenience sake. so I chose not to terminate my daughter's life. Even at that point in my life, I was not a believer, He still never left me, but guided me and help me get through the tough times. Praise God that He gave me the strength to go through a difficult pregnancy and finally deliver a most beautiful child.

I am very proud to be able to say that the group I worked with that counsels pregnant women and teens have had a very high success rate in children born. I know of not one of those women that regret not aborting their beautiful child.


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momj47(7A)

Hate Pastor Angry After People Donate To Planned Parenthood In His Name

Pastor Greg Locke is angry that people are donating to Planned Parenthood in his name.

A Christian pastor known for his hate filled rants against the transgender community and others is angry after people began to donate money to Planned Parenthood in his name.

On a recent video aimed at his conservative Christian audience Locke explained that he did not support Planned Parenthood, and was angry that money to the organization that provided healthcare to women was receiving donations in his name.

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momj47(7A)

I am very proud to be able to say that the group I worked with that counsels pregnant women and teens have had a very high success rate in children born

And what happens to those children after they are born?

Do you follow up?

Do the mothers get baby boxes to ensure that they have a safe place for their baby to sleep, and clothes to wear when they leave the hospital?

Do you make sure they apply for WIC if they are eligible, so both mother and baby have food?

Do you ensure that the baby goes home to a safe environment, and will not be abused or killed by a family member?

Do you refer mother and baby to a clinic so the baby has well-baby checks and immunizations and mother has postpartum checks and access to contraceptives and birth control?

No? That's not your job?

Figures. You RW forced-birth extremists get off on childbirth. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

But that mountaintop feeling doesn't last, does it?

Well, imagine what it's like for a woman who has been coerced into giving birth? There is no mountaintop

Has anyone ever done a study on the outcomes for all the babies you "saved"?

Have they studied how many grew up and were successful in life, and how many were abused and killed as infants?

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ann_t

Roseberry, are you still with the man that wanted you to abort his daughter?

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Bigger question, is he in her life?

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texasranger2

Waving your hand and throwing this issue into the broad category of exRW is a conversational derailing technique intended to stifle reasonable intelligent objection or discussion by attempting to make the other side appear indefensibly biased, brainwashed or unable to think outside of their political party box. It, along with the incessant focus on sexual issues, has all but pushed me out of the Democratic party, it is not the party I originally registered for and I am not the only one. For that matter, I am not enthralled with the Republican party either.

The pro abortion people are the ones who have had to invent new terms with carefully chosen monikers in their etymology of propaganda. They also seem to need assurance in the form of across the board approval to justify their cause so they can perpetuate their myth and if they can't get that, they cross them off as uncaring or ignorant.

Its not difficult to come to the conclusion that women who have had abortions need to believe in this desperately. People who defend life have no need to change the language, they can speak plainly.

I know women who regretted it when it soaked in that they'd killed their own child. I know other women who felt justified at the time and were able to go on for a long time mentally dulled to the idea only to experience deep regret when they were older, a child never known, the grandchildren they could have had---plenty of regrets and sorrow for what can never be undone.






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Roseberry Ranch

And what happens to those children after they are born?

Do you follow up? Absolutely !! That's an important part of the program.

Do the mothers get baby boxes to ensure that they have a safe place for their baby to sleep, and clothes to wear when they leave the hospital? We don't call them "baby boxes", but they are provided with temporary housing if it is needed, Most of the time it isn't, as they stay with their families, and in a few cases, once the dad interacted with their child, it changed their attitude about the situation, Every situation is different. Some women put their children up for adoption.

Do you make sure they apply for WIC if they are eligible, so both mother and baby have food? As I stated above, they are not just dropped off at the nearest pound. Many of us have brought these women into our homes during the pregnancy and after the child is born.

Do you ensure that the baby goes home to a safe environment, and will not be abused or killed by a family member? One of the most important aspects is discussing the safety of both the mother and the baby.

Do you refer mother and baby to a clinic so the baby has well-baby checks and immunizations and mother has postpartum checks and access to contraceptives and birth control? If needed, yes we sure do, Some cases, when they go back home, their family undertakes these responsibilities.

No? That's not your job? See how wrong you truly are? You make misinformed assumptions based on your own experience with "being your brother's keeper"

Figures. You RW forced-birth extremists get off on childbirth. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. As a decent human being, yes seeing a beautiful baby born does give me the warm and fuzzies. The miracle of birth is always a blessing to behold.

But that mountaintop feeling doesn't last, does it? What a ridiculous question. Saving an innocent life is always a good feeling, but perhaps that's something many liberals just don't experience.

Well, imagine what it's like for a woman who has been coerced into giving birth? There is no mountaintop Are liberals truly that uninformed?

Has anyone ever done a study on the outcomes for all the babies you "saved"?

Have they studied how many grew up and were successful in life, and how many were abused and killed as infants? Actually we have some of those babies now adult, and are active within our church as well as many other churches of their own choice. We have one young fellow now in Seminary.

Fundraising is an important source of revenue and God has blessed us "big league" in our endeavors to save a lot of beautiful children.

Note: The Bold is not for yelling, but simply to differentiate the truth from the propaganda perpetrated by the left.

I have provided a link to a dear and much loved friend and his amazing gift.


A wonderful friend, a product of rape.

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Roseberry Ranch

Rob, My daughters sperm donor is dead.

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SandyC.

Thankfully with the availability of PP services in our poor and rural areas of the country, abortion rates are very low. PP, not only provides young men and women reproduction education and prevention, but with the availability of long term, effective injectable birth control methods abortion rates are very low.

Of course there are always circumstances that a woman may choose an abortion as the only choice. It is her choice, and as I have said before, hopefully those who are religiously against abortion will volunteer in the community at colleges and high schools to deliver information on low cost birth control methids available through PP.

Also I hope all those who do not accept abortion are willing to volunteer at their local homeless shelters, children's home, children's hospitals and foster care agencies and also donate generously.

Becoming a foster parent, especially for a medically fragile child is a great way to adopt. Many of my colleagues fostered babies who's parents were either homeless, alcohol or dug addicts, or just could not financially afford another child, because of having other children with chronic diseases.

There are many children that are not able to be placed because of chronic disease that are waiting for wonderful homes that have the financial stability of caring round the clock for an ill child.

Often the drug addicted mother does not have family to care for the child, either due to incarceration or drug and alcohol problems themselves. Please consider adopting one of these needy children. My son worked for a boys home where most parents were incarcerated, the children are often born with multiple problems, especially fetile alcohol syndrome, that leads to life long disability and learning problems. There are many school age and teenagers waiting for your love.

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Roseberry Ranch

The PP locations I am aware of are all in larger metro areas, and NONE in rural areas.

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SaraM

Skimming the responses, it sounds like some are describing a puppy....not a human being. It is sad and disgraceful that society allows this to happen. God creates life, and it is not up to us to manipulate that to "fit" into our lives. RESPECT LIFE and take responsibility.

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jodik_gw

What we favor is having a choice... having a say in what happens to our own bodies as women... having the right to make our own decisions regarding our reproductive systems.

If someone else's choice doesn't affect you, why all the propagandist cries of murder, punishment in hell, and whatnot?

~~~

We go over and over this, and I am still at a loss to explain why it's so important to force women to give birth, but then complain about our public assistance programs that some would require to help them care for those babies.

You don't want women to have the choice to terminate a pregnancy, but you complain about paying taxes that could go toward a better education, and you do your best to shut down programs and organizations like Planned Parenthood that help with birth control and other forms of health care.

~~~

Help me understand this... what possible difference could it make to you what I choose to do with my own body? Tell me that, please, so maybe I could understand a different point of view.

Edited to add...

SaraM... first of all, that only applies if one believes in a deity.

And tell me how a woman who is raped, molested, or otherwise compromised against her will is supposed to take responsibility?

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Was he a part at all? I know it's hard when they're not around, but not being wanted at all would hurt very deeply. ((((you and your daughter)))

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SaraM

I haven't complained about too many babies or public assistance.

This is about taking responsibility for your life before there is a situation....caused by not worrying about consequences.

Yes and imagine the babies one shot at life and then learning someone chose not to accept you as Gods gift. I know I would be devastated. "Nope, sorry, you can't go they don't want you." Put the shoe on the other foot and it's not as easy to shove in the corner.

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texasranger2

Its about your own body? The child stands a 50% chance of being different sex than the mother and probably a different blood type. Basic facts of biology are being twisted around to fit an agenda which makes that argument ludicrous and blatant propaganda. Belief in deity or not, in most cases its a matter of the woman's preferences being more important with a higher priority than her baby's life. Why can't people be honest and admit that if they have no qualms about abortion?

The high abortion numbers affect everyone in this country. Affecting only the woman in question is another propagandist remark, moral decline of a large segment of the population affects everyone.

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Roseberry Ranch

Rob, Once he saw that he could not manipulate me into having an abortion, he walked away and refused any contact. When my daughter wanted to meet him, we located him, she went to see him, and he slammed the door. It hurt, but the hurt was so temporary when I look at my wonderful daughter. She now has a better understanding of good vs evil. Now I see my grandbabies and great grandbabies that never would have been had I listened to that sperm donor. So, for me, it was a win win situation to keep my child.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

That is awful and great to hear. I hope she doesn't take anything personally. It was never her, all him. You tell her I said so.

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SandyC.
Rose many PP are in small rural towns near colleges and low income areas where other affordable women's health care, pre natal care, cancer screening, male and female std screening and male and female low cost birth control is not available. When Texas defunded many clinics the abortion rate increased due to less availability of low cost monthly injectable birth control. Women in low income areas often are not able to travel 20-30 miles for monthly injectables, especially if they are students or young mothers, working or caring young children with limited transportation. Many of my patients work or go to school 6 days /week and either don't have a car, gas money,child care , or someone to drive them.
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momj47(7A)

So does he fit Oaktown's description of a person who is pro-abortion.

Like Mr. Trump

No, more like "I'm not using a condom, sex just doesn't "feel right" with a condom, but you better not get pregnant".

I wonder how many of the abortions performed last year were done because a husband, boyfriend of father forced the woman to have one. Under threat of violence of death, but, most assuredly, abandonment?<<<

Do you think men who express such views are pro abortion or not? I am trying to figure out what you mean. (Who is "no one" and what is "pro abortion" as those terms are being used)

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Despite the verbal hi-jinks the anti-abortion crowd indulges in when they pretend to be "explaining" the pro-choice position but are really trying to smear it, the concept of "pro-choice" is very simple and direct and easy to understand.

If you are against abortion (for any reason), you are free to choose not to have an abortion.

If you are not against abortion (for any reason), you are free to choose to have one (within certain limitations) if you want one.

And one other simple and direct explanation should be added:

If you are personally against abortion and would never choose to have one--but believe other women should be free to make their own choices for or against abortion (for whatever reasons), then you are pro-choice.

There--that about covers it. Pro-choice encompasses YES and NO.

No mystery, no complex linguistic tricks needed--it means what it say.

Of course, there is also that "big" word we could add--"autonomy": the right or condition of self-government; or freedom from external control or influence; independence. A quality that is considered my most people to be the essential trait of a free, adult person.

Kate

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momj47(7A)

If you support a woman's right to choose, you are free to choose not to have an abortion, too

Just remember, a decision to test is a decision to treat.

You also have to make a choice about getting an amniocentesis. If abnormalities show up in that test ....

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elvis

jodik_gw

What we favor is having a choice... having a say in what happens to our own bodies as women... having the right to make our own decisions regarding our reproductive systems.

So you are advocating the choice to have an abortion if the sex was against your will. I can understand that point of view.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I'm glad, Elvis, that you can understand the rape victim's possible viewpoint on abortion, but I don't think that is what jodi was talking about in her comment that you quote.

Kate

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terrene(5b MA)

Texasranger The high abortion numbers affect everyone in this country.

How so exactly?

Btw, I noticed you deleted all your previous posts and yet you are back posting on this thread. How odd.

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terrene(5b MA)

Texas ranger - I know women who regretted it when it soaked in that they'd killed
their own child. I know other women who felt justified at the time and
were able to go on for a long time mentally dulled to the idea only to
experience deep regret when they were older, a child never known, the
grandchildren they could have had---plenty of regrets and sorrow for
what can never be undone.

Palisades - The emotional
turmoil lasts a lifetime for those who involved because deep down, they
knew it's wrong regardless of reasons they rationalized or were goaded
and talked into

SaraM -Yes and imagine the babies one shot at life and then learning someone
chose not to accept you as Gods gift. I know I would be devastated.

Wow, one gets the impression that you guys almost wish this kind of misery on women who have had an abortion. That would serve them right, wouldn't it?

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Roseberry Ranch

Rob, She has always leaned on her heavenly Father when times got tough and that in of itself was what got us through the really hard times. His rejection of her was tough at first, but she knew her REAL father would always love her.

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everdebz

Almost hate to post here -- only saw 1 post -- I hear that question/ quandary about any 'moral issue' [how can it hurt another?] -- think of idea that we're 6 or so connections away from any person -- as to the influence of their attitudes/ actions, however large or small -- isn't it possible that knowing one of them can be on sprectrum of helpfulness/ joy/ peace, within our 6 degrees. People have troubles of their own, and almost rightfully so, can't feel it "their problem" / responsibility how others near or far live. Sense anyone? In other words, those 6 degrees have an impact -- what? are we plants, robots, without influence? no - we have influence. I don't call that cause for conservative thinking, just rational.

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purrmichigan(5)

Why can't people be honest and admit that if they have no qualms about abortion?

The high abortion numbers affect everyone in this country. Affecting only the woman in question is another propagandist remark, moral decline of a large segment of the population affects everyone.

I have no qualms about abortion.

Abortion rates are lower all the time - they are not "high" relatively speaking. Incorrect and misleading to state this.

Show me the facts that abortion affects everyone. Show me the study

Propagandist? Who or what agency?

You're connecting "moral decline" to abortion. Studies shows this?

"Moral decline of a large segment of the population" Are you trying to relate having an abortion to having low morals? If so, then you are being judgmental - and anyone who you judge, in person, I would expect to be outraged.

In looking at each bit of your argument, all I get are highly subjective opinions.

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everdebz

... not necessarily that we must button up and behave -- but just admit that we have influence. Am I wrong that many think we actually don't?

As just one thing: the foul language that is now common - I heard F word on live TV and wished I hadn't, though I understood I think the disgust /anger. Others, young and old, are impacted when multiplied..... soapbox.

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everdebz

Science has studied the minutest of human behaviors. A smile, falling in love, destruction toward self or others. Many are too subtle to study! Don't be naïve.

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everdebz

But I am Not assigning blame while saying this.

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everdebz

You can't study the whole human race, or even an entire society, but changes do happen. Look back into last several decades.

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everdebz

elvis, alas life is way too complicated to be judgmental toward others. But we do make laws, don't we?.... I'm sorry that others have to be hurt is all. So much support is needed it's mind blowing.

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palisades_

Thank you Snookums for highlighting part my post that some
people have contradicted and tripped all over themselves.

I am talking about your comment. Maybe your comment
should've been different.

I read my post again; there is nothing I need to change. I
addressed the 99%. Yours is a knee jerk reaction typically coming from the LWEx
side of the spectrum, hence my suggestion to read my post in it entirety. But you are unable to distinguish the point I
made about the 99% and the 1%. Instead you attempt to contradict yourself with “I'll
educate you…. I had a health condition, which doesn't excuse it, but explains my
abortion…..” It may give you some
clarity to re read my post again, especially the part that Snookums placed in bold.

no, that's completely wrong. I don't know a single woman
who could've been talked into or out of it when they had to make the decision

Contradicting yourself. When you don’t know any women who
could’ve been talked into or out, how can you conclude that’s completely wrong?
Assume much?

NO ONE IS PRO ABORTION

That is just ugly…

Yes, there are people like you who are pro abortion; glad
you admit that pro abortion is an ugly fact, shrouded in glossy terms and
monikers and ill justifications that the far leftists are desperately
incorporating in their propaganda. But fails it always does.

BTW, the regrets, emotional turmoil are normal part of human
feeling that many people experience, not a wish on any one as some people misconstrue.

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purrmichigan(5)

Anti-women. That's what I think of "pro-lifers"

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Roseberry Ranch

Anti baby, that's what pro choicers are.

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everdebz

Tug of war, and heels are dug in, and grunting with effort. There's a grey-area world of living and understanding each other, and we're on it [planet earth]. :)

:/

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everdebz

I'm signing out but will say that there's fighting fair and fighting not so fair.... get counseling!

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SandyC.

Or better yet, do some counseling of battered women, 13 year old incest victims, rape victims, single mothers with 5 kids living below the federal poverty level, children in the foster care system whose parents are incarcerated.
There is no black and white in a women's choice. A woman's choice is the most personal decision, that the government has no business in.
If you are against choice get out and support starving children and homeless families living in their cars and stop the pettiness and name calling. It is not what a "Christian" does. Sponsor a refugee family and help them adjust to your community.

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texasranger2

Michigan, I'll post a quote below that came to mind. You can research or conduct your own studies, my comments are based on comparative religious study, ethics and history. You can try to understand the depth and humanity of the quote or you can roll your eyeballs and come back with more cynicism, whatever the case its not my concern, I am not trying to change your mind, your mind sounds made up already.

terrene gets her panties all in a twist if someone doesn't speak correctly about abortion using the approved terminology in the politically proper way. Worse than that, if someone has the audacity to step out of line and be emotionally different than her---to feel grief, regret or sadness about having an abortion they have a problem. If anyone sympathizes with these women we are faking, its really because we secretly wish the offenders to suffer. Meanwhile she proudly boasts that her own experience resulted in one emotion--relief. Anything that is more emotional than that is histrionics.


"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

Yerushalmi Talmud 4:9


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SandyC.

I agree, Go save a life, take in a refugee, a homeless person, a foster child.

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purrmichigan(5)

"gets her panties in a twist" seriously? That's pretty nasty language.

Please live by that quote. You will be occupied 24/7 if you do. And then come back and you'll have the high moral ground.

Won't change my opinion, of course not. Your super subjective comments are your thoughts. Good for you, hope you feel better having expressed them. Or, are you one of those people who think it's their job in life to tell others how to live their lives.

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jodik_gw

Elvis knows damn well exactly what my post meant. She's been on my heels, reading my posts and plopping her comments in for years, which would be considered long enough to know better.

Her twisted inference is not worth commenting on, beyond the above.

~~~

SaraM said: "This is about taking responsibility for your life before there is a situation....caused by not worrying about consequences."

So, as a female, "taking responsibility" means I need to be on birth control whether I want to or not, even if it's proven to be harmful to me as an individual... because rape, molestation, and roofies exist? What kind of messed up logic is that?

It sounds to me like you're placing all the onus on the female, and excusing the rapist, the molester, and anyone else who would force a female to have intercourse against her will! Because only females should bear responsibility, is that correct?

And because I edited my former post to add, because we kind of cross-posted, what was written above regarding public assistance does not apply to what I posted to you.

~~~

In the world of reason and logic, where family planning and birth control are both available and accessible, not to mention affordable, the majority of women do take that responsibility. It's when those options are taken away that abortion numbers rise.

Education also plays a large and key role. Where our youth are properly prepared to meet the challenges of being young and hormonal, properly educated about sex, and about protecting themselves from unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases... and that protection is made available, accessible, and affordable, there are less incidences of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies and abortion.

Statistics bear this out. We've discussed this time and time again. But very few "forced-birth" posters ever comment on the correlation between lowered percentages of abortion... and accessible, available, affordable birth control or protection, and the proper education.

~~~

Apparently, Terrene, it's a woman's lot in life to suffer consequences. She should never, ever even think about dropping that dime she keeps pressed between her knees, unless she's legally tied to a man in marriage! And then, sex is a duty.

She is supposed to be counting ceiling tiles or thinking about what shade of white to paint it next while her spouse uses, or even abuses, her body... whether she wants him to or not!

And to enjoy sex? Oh, the horrors! Where is that fainting couch?! I may need it!

Accidental pregnancy due to any mishap is a female's punishment! The mishap could be rape, molestation, a form of birth control that doesn't work, a defective condom... it doesn't matter! The fault is hers as a female... and hers, alone! She should be punished, and she should suffer for what happened... so, it makes perfect sense in the mindset of those who believe in "forced-birth" to think of her in terms of a slutty individual deserving of what she got, who possibly (gasp!) enjoyed the sexual interlude, and could have even experienced one of those mythical "big O's" they've heard spoken of!

~~~

Yeah... I, too, would like to see the studies that indicate women never get over the trauma of terminating an early pregnancy... where they spend the rest of their lives weighted down by regret and self-loathing, wishing they could continually flagellate themselves with barbed wire in a useless attempt at remorse.

Show me studies indicating that the idea of abortion equals moral decline. or any lack of morality.

Morals are purely subjective, and do not match perfectly person to person... and there's not a thing wrong with that.

I'd also like to see studies that indicate a female having an abortion affects other people.

C'mon... in this age of instant access to information, surely someone can find those studies.

~~~

That's right... no one is pro-abortion. The majority of people who are pro-choice do most assuredly wish that proper education and the access, availability and affordability of birth control were always there to be utilized.

The unfortunate thing is... the Republican extreme right and those extremely dogmatic are colluding to make access to birth control and family planning non-existent. And some would like to take education regarding sex and protection out of schools so our youth can't access that valuable and necessary knowledge.

~~~

The bottom line is... no one is under any obligation to have an abortion, to terminate a pregnancy... no one... not one person.

The Constitution gives me the right to terminate a pregnancy should I feel it's in my best interest, with caveats attached... and my doing so will affect no one. So, please... can you just stay out of my uterus?

Worry about your own, instead.




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SaraM

Terrene- I would never wish anything bad on someone else. What I am saying, is I do not think women understand they have been used politically, or the real consequences. Evil in society has lulled people into thinking it's ok....It's a quick fix and don't feel bad....there's an easy solution.

Well....it's not easy or a solution. Pride and anger perpetuate the thought that its ok. Walking the tight rope of "It's a relief" is quite risky. It's controlling someone else. There are calls for freedom for people all over the world, and yet why can't the new person be free too?

And why not stop and take a look at all the beauty in the world. It's not by chance, neither are we. If you can't see the beauty, stop and ask yourself, why? Why can others see it and I can't?

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Roseberry Ranch

And why not stop and take a look at all the beauty in the world. It's not by chance, neither are we. If you can't see the beauty, stop and ask yourself, why? Why can others see it and I can't?

Liberals don't seem to want to see anything beautiful. Ugliness and hatred apparently fits their twisted agendas so much better.

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momj47(7A)

And who do you attribute this beauty to?

I bet if you are poor and pregnant, or have kids, but don't have enough food, or clothes, or a place to live, it's none to beautiful.

Here's more liberal ugliness and hatred RR, for your viewing pleasure

EVERY American should be able to see beauty.

I wonder if that will ever happen

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SaraM

Again, why not stop and take a look at all the beauty in the world. It's not by chance, neither are we. If you can't see the beauty, stop and ask yourself, why? Why can others see it and I can't?

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momj47(7A)

Again, why not stop and take a look at all the beauty in the world. It's not by chance, neither are we. If you can't see the beauty, stop and ask yourself, why? Why can others see it and I can't?

So you and RR think you are the only ones who can see beauty around you?

Hahaha

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purrmichigan(5)

That comment is about as ludicrous as they come. Liberals don't see beauty? It"ll be liberals fighting tooth and nail to keep our beautiful National Parks. Liberals in the cities who are artists and creative. Liberals who see beauty in all skin tones, all sexual orientations. Liberals who see beauty in humour.

Try harder.

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texasranger2

momj47---The wrongness of homelessness does not affirm a need for or justification of abortion.

The ability to see the beauty in the world is not wiped out just because a woman chooses to abort or supports abortion.

Seems I finally agree with puremichigan60 on something. Ludicrous.

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momj47(7A)

momj47---The wrongness of homelessness does not affirm a need for or justification of abortion.

I don't believe anyone has said that, have they?

The ability to see the beauty in the world is not wiped out just because a woman chooses to abort or supports abortion.

What a strange comment

And who, on this forum, supports abortion?

Is that the new word, no long "pro-abortion".

Thanks for the heads up

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texasranger2

Who supports the right to abortion? Does Roe v Wade suddenly mean something different than a woman's right to legalized abortion for any reason she chooses?

This subject is about public opinion, feminist oriented agendas and law. Sappy emotionalism is out of place here. There are two opposing sides, both seriously grounded in morality, reason and logic as everyone knows. The side of public opinion I am on is in direct conflict with those who support abortion on demand as the right of any woman who wishes to procure an abortion no matter what the reason, even self centered reasons of inconvenience or as a means of birth control.

I cannot support an agenda which focuses only on the woman in this life and death question based on my belief that all human life is equally sacred, both that of the mother and the child. The pro-abortion side is attempting to dull the American consciousness into normalizing abortion into a commonly accepted, morally neutral practice with the constantly reinforced message which says-- a woman's right to choose is more sacred than a child's existence and legally justifies killing her unborn child. Any disagreement is tantamount to heresy and considered a violation of human rights. I object to that. The numbers of unnecessary abortions, especially those procured as a form of birth control, in this country (and other countries) is obscene.

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terrene(5b MA)

Texasranger - terrene gets her panties all in a twist if someone doesn't speak
correctly about abortion using the approved terminology in the
politically proper way. Worse than that, if someone has the audacity to
step out of line and be emotionally different than her---to feel grief,
regret or sadness about having an abortion they have a problem. If
anyone sympathizes with these women we are faking, its really because we
secretly wish the offenders to suffer. Meanwhile she proudly boasts
that her own experience resulted in one emotion--relief. Anything that
is more emotional than that is histrionics.

TX it takes a lot more than this thread to get my panties in a twist. Are yours in a twist? Isn't deleting a bunch of posts and then coming back to post again and again on a thread somewhat histrionic?

I understand that each individual has their own emotional makeup. Some people are more emotional than others. But for the record I was not boasting, nor felt only one emotion, but relief was the primary emotion.

Your response above is perhaps one reason why women don't feel they can
express their experience about abortion freely. There is a lot of
judgement out there.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And I repeat: public opinion has nothing to do with establishing a constitutional right to freedom of reproductive choice. That is determined by the Supreme Court, based on their understanding of the Constitution/Amendments.

However, being that we have a constitutional right to freedom of reproductive choice, that protects your right to say "no" to abortion--as well as my right to say "yes" to abortion (although a seventy-something woman no longer has to worry about such things one way or another).

But I am concerned for the women of America, not just for myself.

Kate

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elvis

So, please... can you just stay out of my uterus?

It's too late for your uterus to be worried about pregnancy, Jodik, so if others' concerns about abortion are misplaced, so are yours. You have no dog in this fight.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Gee. I looked, and I can't find anything in the Constitution that gives FedGov the power to legislate in the areas of things like gay issues and abortion, which means Trump is pretty much spot on when he says it's a States issue. I'm betting we'll see movement in that direction by SCOTUS.

Al

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purrmichigan(5)

It's too late for your uterus to be worried about pregnancy, Jodik, so if others' concerns about abortion are misplaced, so are yours. You have no dog in this fight.

That's crass and not surprising, but noyb about a specific person. I'm dumbfounded that you would have the nerve to tell someone their concerns are irrelevant or misplaced.

She can and will comment as much as she pleases and it's none of your concern either way. Get a grip, seriously.

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SandyC.
A woman's right to choose is everyone's concern. Now more than ever we need to stand up for human rights. I marched with nuns, priests, church choirs, women's groups, babies, young mothers and dads, grandmothers, grandfathers, our mayor, city council members,community volunteers , Muslims, the ACLU, and all others who are standing up to protect our community members rights.
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jodik_gw

Thank you, puremichigan60... though, to be honest, elvis' comments are not that shocking or unexpected if you've spent any time reading this forum.

~~~

I happen to have several dogs in this fight, elvis, and you'd know that if you actually paid attention and quit living for "gotcha" moments, and the correction of spelling and grammar, instead!

I have children of childbearing age, and grandchildren to worry about. I also worry about the rights of every other female, whether I know her personally or not. You see, I don't just think about myself where human rights are concerned... I'm concerned for everyone.

Age, the ability to conceive, or even gender does not eliminate me, or anyone else, from this discussion, nor does it diminish my concern for the rights of future generations.

I know your sole intent is to goad me into posting something I'll regret so you can pretend I'm being personally insulting to you, but there's nothing I could say that you haven't already shown through your own collective posts over the years... and you've done so all by yourself.

So, yes... stay out of my uterus, and those that belong to every other female. Worry about your own self, instead.

~~~

Kate is correct, and has been since this, and so many threads like it began. There's not a thing stopping people from avoiding abortion. If it's not within your own framework of belief, don't have one.

But nothing gives you or anyone else the right to hold control over the actions of others where reproduction is concerned.

~~~

Actually, terminology is rather important to the issue. Only anti-choice, forced-birth propaganda uses terms like "killing an unborn child" or "murdering babies" and the like.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows those are terms specifically chosen to be provocative and inflammatory.

Murder and infanticide are illegal. Everyone knows this... or should.

~~~

The other inflammatory part of the equation often brought to the table of debate is religious belief. However, not everyone believes in a god... another right we all have... so terminology that separates science and biology from conception and places it in some imaginary realm of performed miracles doesn't exactly advance the discussion.

Personally, I don't care if someone's belief system includes a specific religion... that's fine. But bringing a personal, private belief and dropping it into the mix does nothing to further anything... except the anti-choice agenda.





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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Tapla admits to total ignorance of the history of Supreme Court rulings on the right to privacy and the right to liberty.

They are included in any basic Civics or Government 101 course. Do read up on them so that we can have a more informed discussion next time.

Or go read the Supreme Court ruling Roe v Wade. As I've mentioned before, it is very readable and very informative.

Kate

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SaraM

The discussion here is not whether it is legal, the discussion is whether most people agree with it. Again, most people do not agree with it, and know that it is morally wrong. That is because we respect human life at all levels and do not disregard it when inconvenient. We learned respect for life at an early age.

Talking about women's body parts and the "It's my choice", is propaganda that has been fed to our society, to make it appear that women are being protected. It is the opposite, actually. PP clinics lobby to make us think they help women with preventive tests. It is a fake excuse. There are plenty of doctors offices which will do the preventive testing people need.

Here is one example of the ridiculous nature of the propaganda: liberals who yell about animal rights but then support abortion. They have fallen for it and are hypocritical.....and don't even see it in themselves!

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SandyC.
"There are plenty of clinics that will do the preventative testing they need" WRONG
Birth control is expensive, young, poor women and men receive affordable care through PP. Often a PP clinic is the only affordable care available for those on Medicaid or on the ACA.
Monthly injectables are not only proven to be highly effective in decreasing the rate of abortion, but they are available through PP for those women who can't travel monthly to clinics farther away. Many low income women, lack transportation, are in school, or caring for young children.
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purrmichigan(5)

gain, most people do not agree with it, and know that it is morally wrong.

Again, you can't say that and make it true because it's what you believe and want to force your beliefs on others. Most people believe women should make the choice. For myselves, as it is THEIR body. That's what it comes down to in the end. You just don't like it. You don't speak for the majority of Americans.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Most people would not choose abortion for themselves (or their female partner) but still want to let other women have that choice.

It's as simple as that. Morals do not have to come into it. I do not look down at those who made that choice.

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Roseberry Ranch

I smell a very dead horse here.

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jodik_gw

Precisely, puremichigan60!

"...most people do not agree with it, and know that it is morally wrong."

That is a personal opinion, at best. It is not a fact.

Actually, that whole post reads like it was copied straight from an anti-choice, just-say-no pamphlet. None of it is fact. It is all personal opinion.

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rgreen48(7a)

"For myselves, as it is THEIR body." [sic]

Morally speaking...

That's the thing... they aren't killing their own body, they are killing the body of a developing human being. They are taking a life.

Secular laws can tell you what you may, or may not do in any particular nation at any particular time, but morally, once you've created the life, it is a thing... a maturing individual. Just by engaging in the act, you've consented to the possibility of mothering, and fathering a child.

In another discussion, you can discuss the relatively few cases of nonconsensual actions which bring a life into the world - compared to the consensual that is... Nonconsensual sex is the violation of another individual. It is morally wrong.

A life growing inside a woman's womb is not a parasite. It is a choice to nurture a developing life (again, nonconsent is a different issue.) It is a commitment, and it begins the moment the 2 people decide to engage in the creative act.

Killing a developing human, at any stage, is the violation of an individual. As it is done without their consent, it is a moral violation.

Thinking that killing the developing human life is a choice that can be made by the woman, is a convenient artifice. It is shallow, and empty of moral comprehension.

A cannibalistic society may have laws that permit the killing of other humans, but that doesn't make it morally right.

So, each society can choose to make whatever laws they wish, but one shouldn't confuse morality and legality. Legality does not make something moral.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Sara claims, "the discussion is whether most people agree with it. Again, most people do not agree with it . . . "

Wrong, Sara.

Let me repeat from the source I cited in the OP:

------------------------------

""Sixty-nine percent of Americans now oppose overturning Roe v. Wade, according to a Pew Research Center report published Tuesday. . . .

. . . According to the new Pew poll, 84 percent of those who lean Democratic oppose overturning Roe v. Wade. . . .Just over half of people who lean Republican oppose overturning it. . . . However, a majority of conservative Republicans support overturning the decision. . . ."

------------------------------

You may not like those FACTS, but those FACTS are indisputable. Pew Research Center is a highly respected and widely recognized first-rate data collector. They do not take partisan sides. They just report the stats as they find them.

Now what do you have--FACT-WISE--to counter PEW's findings? Your own personal opinion or "feeling" is not sufficient--and proves NOTHING.

What it boils down to is that, other than "conservative Republicans," the majority of Democrats and Republicans, as well as of those leaning Democrat and Republican, OPPOSE overturning Roe v Wade.

And that is a FACT.

And do remember that even if a majority of all Americans wanted Roe v Wade overturned, that would mean nothing as far as a Constitutional right is concerned. Constitutional rights are NOT decided by the majority votes of the people or their representatives.

Kate

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SaraM

Fact- Pew has not been correct of recent.

Yes it would mean a lot as far as the 14th amendment. Because it would be recognizing human life at any stage.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Wait. I'm pro-choice. You mean I have not also been an atheist all these past decades? So...., so..., completely ridiculous that it does not merit a serious response!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Roe v Wade defined legal rights embodied in the US Constitution.

When a woman exercises one of her rights i.e.; abortion, that is her legal, and moral choice. Within the confines of that decision, her choice is considered by many, religious or not, to be a moral choice.

.

Make no mistake, abortions were being performed long before Roe v Wade, and will continue if that decision is ever overturned.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Who has secularized their religion?

I see far more trying to make the US a theocracy -- contrary to the Constitution.

We live in society comprised of many faiths and creeds. Disagreement on matters of religion and faith are to be expected unless you are endorsing a state religion, once again against the US Constitution.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Texasranger, if you wish all in the US to adhere to your particular set of religious beliefs, you are in for a life of frustration.

You can condemn our society as much as you wish, but you cannot impose your own personal standards on so many people.

You seem to be endorsing a theocracy which promotes your religion, and to Hades with all other beliefs.


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purrmichigan(5)

You are alienating when posting photos that are extreme and suggesting this is part of daily life of a typical American. It is indeed nonsense.

The more you attempt to judge the more obvious it is that that's your MO. Doesn't matter what forum you're in, I bet that's who you are. It's alienating.

Not sure why you're here except to preach. I don't see the slightest interest in understanding or learning.

These are the responses you'll get - even from Christians. Unless it's from the FRW who enjoy an authoritarian approach.

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SandyC.
Nope, we have a separation of church and state, period. Even though Trump tries to act like a pseudo Christian, much like Putin who wears his big gold cross, lol.
We are free to worship whoever we want. We have religious freedom, unlike Russia, where those whom "Christians" denounce, are left to die on the streets. Since HIV is considered to be a disease of gays, Putin has deemed those not worthy of treatment, he spews to his followers.
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Roseberry Ranch

Texas, extremely well put !! You nailed it!! It's a doggone shame that most folks just do not "get it" but not because they haven't had ample opportunity to learn, but because they would have to examine their own hearts, and chances are they wouldn't like what they find there. Those folks happily pass judgement on everyone that is willing to think for themselves. Name calling is the preferred MO.

I know there are things I do, that when I examine my heart, I find are not who I wish to be, but rather a reflection of who I am near. So, then I make a conscious effort to be a little bit kinder, a little bit more tolerant of the repeated taunting and name calling. Often I am wrong, etiher in approach or in not conveying my message so that it is understandable.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Nancy - The left invented moral relativism to justify their self-indulgent 'if it feels good, do it' approach to life's journey. Somewhere along the line they were conditioned to accept the idea there was no 'life eternal', so convincing them to sacrifice the reward of a heavenly eternity on the altar of ephemeral gratification was a snap. Where Christians are moored (or at least have a sense of being moored) to the 10 unchanging principles upon which our laws are based, the left is morally adrift, tethered to nothing but a 'progressively' evolving set of values that have nothing to do with the heavenly virtues and everything to do with escaping the feelings of guilt that would assail more morally erect individuals involved in similar baseness.

No one expects you (the left) to ever adhere to a fixed set of moral guidelines, so you'll frustrate very few by announcing you don't accept their beliefs. In that, you give yourself way to much import. What is true is, what TR believes has nothing to do with who you are or your values, other than to, perhaps, serve as an embarrassing meter for comparison.

Al

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And once again, a reminder that a large number of the founding fathers were deists, NOT Christians.

They also came from backgrounds in which they had witnessed or heard of people of different religions (including protestants) slay their political opponents or send them to dungeons for having the "wrong" religious belief (defined as that of the side currently in power).

The founding fathers were adamant that they didn't want the govt. mixing in with religion, nor religion mixing in with the govt. Separation of Church and State was not a passing whim with them.

Kate

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Al, you are ignoring the left that is Christian -- and Jewish, an important part of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

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purrmichigan(5)

Or ... just a bunch of BS cloaked in a "religious cause". You should learn the difference.

Gosh dern it .... really?? Cause you're just good ole' folks speaking the truth. :(((

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texasranger2

Weak argument.

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momj47(7A)

Embryo Experiments Reveal Earliest Human Development

Ali Brivanlou slides open a glass door at the Rockefeller University in New York to show off his latest experiments probing the mysteries of the human embryo.

His lab and one other discovered how to keep human embryos alive in lab dishes longer than ever before — at least 14 days. That has triggered an international debate about a long-standing convention (one that's legally binding in some countries, though not in the U.S.) that prohibits studying human embryos that have developed beyond the two-week stage.

"Women don't even know they are pregnant at that stage. So it has always been a big black box," Brivanlou says.

Gist Croft, a stem cell biologist in Brivanlou's lab, shows me some samples, starting with one that's 12 days old.

"So you can see this with the naked eye," Croft says, pointing to a dish. "In the middle of this well, if you look down, there's a little white speck — it looks like a grain of sand or a piece of dust."

Under a microscope, the embryo looks like a fragile ball of overlapping bubbles shimmering in a silvery light — with thin hairlike structures extending from all sides.

Croft and Brivanlou explain that those willowy structures are what embryos would normally extend at this stage to search for a place to implant inside the uterus. Scientists used to think embryos could do that only if they were receiving instructions from the mother's body.

"The amazing thing is that it's doing its thing without any information from mom," Brivanlou says. "It just has all the information already in it. That was mind-blowing to me."

The embryos they managed to keep alive in the lab dish beyond seven days of development have also started secreting hormones and organizing themselves to form the cells needed to create all the tissues and organs in the human body.

The two scientists think studying embryos at this and later stages could lead to discoveries that might point to new ways to stop miscarriages, treat infertility and prevent birth defects.

"The only way to understand what goes wrong is to understand what happens normally, or as normally as we can, so we can prevent all of this," Brivanlou says.

The latest guidelines issued by the International Society for Stem Cell Research call for intensive ethical review, Daley notes.

Brivanlou acknowledges that some of his experiments have produced early signs of the primitive streak. But that's a very long way from being able to develop a spinal cord, or flesh and bones, let alone a brain. He dismisses the notion that the research on embryoids would ever lead to scientists creating humans in a lab dish.

"They will not get up start walking around. I can assure you that," he says, noting that full human embryonic development is a highly complex process that requires just the right mix of the biology, physics, geometry and other factors.

Nevertheless, Brivanlou says all of his experiments go through many layers of review. And he's convinced the research should continue.

"It would be a travesty," he says, "to decide that, somehow, ignorance is bliss."

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

The founding fathers were adamant that they didn't want the govt. mixing
in with religion, nor religion mixing in with the govt. Separation of
Church and State was not a passing whim with them.

That is not true - not even close. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ....." That's it.

It's eminently clear the founders were not adverse to appealing to God for guidance or viewing God as the supreme judge of our actions and a very large part of the invisible force that guided our new government. What they were against, simply, is a state-established religion and the FedGov exacting tithes from the citizenry. Nowhere does the Constitution establish a "separation of church and state". That phrase was first used in a private letter between Jefferson and a church member. Taking prayer and God out of the schools was actually a construct of the SCOTUS - legislating from the bench, if you will.

Do take note of what happened to our country from the time the switch was thrown that disallowed using the Word of God to light our way and infused our society/culture with the moral relativity embraced by the left. It wasn't a coincidence.

Al

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jodik_gw

Thank you, Kate and Nancy... not everyone is aware of the reality of our nation's history.

Even within a group of liberals there will be different opinions on what is considered morally acceptable. Everyone has their own opinion where morality is concerned, and they don't all have to align perfectly. They don't have align at all.

For example, it may absolutely stun some people to learn that I think exotic dancing and even prostitution are morally acceptable, and I'd never judge someone who made a career of either one. It's not my place to judge others and what they choose to do. I find abortion morally acceptable, also... and it just so happens the Constitution has placed a stamp of legality on it... with certain caveats, of course, which make good sense.

~~~

I think that perhaps if there weren't quite so much hypocrisy within the parameters of organized christianity, it wouldn't take such ridicule.

I'm an atheist, myself... though I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone their own choice of dogmatic beliefs. If such a thing works for you, great. It simply doesn't work for me.

But that's the beauty of living in a secular country and having certain rights and the freedom to choose. No one has to be imprisoned or impaled by beliefs that are not their own.




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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Yes - they believed that only a virtuous society, guided by God, was capable of self governance.

This new-found love of the Constitution by the left, and the FOUNDERS for that matter, is very hypocritical and is going to be VERY inconvenient for them in the coming years.

The Founders on Jesus Christ, the Bible, and Christianity.

Liberty and Virtue.


Al

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momj47(7A)

Do take note of what happened to our country from the time the switch was thrown that disallowed using the Word of God to light our way and infused our society/culture with the moral relativity embraced by the left. It wasn't a coincidence.

Religious SPAM

That switch was thrown in 1789

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momj47(7A)

No one here is "pro-abortion"

Did you miss the memo?

The new term is "supports abortion".

America is not now, nor has it ever been a "christian nation".

And whose "christianity" would you deem to be appropriate?

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SandyC.
Religious spam.
Get over this notion Roe v Wade will ever be repealed. There would be more protests than the early 70 s by those who believe a women's has a right to choose.
We have a separation of religion and state.
The majority of Christians and decent citizens support a women's right to choose.
If their right is taken away, you have to be an idiot to think it would stop a woman from making the most difficult decision of her life.
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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

No one here is "pro-abortion"

Did you miss the memo?

The new term is "supports abortion".

America is not now, nor has it ever been a "christian nation".

And whose "christianity" would you deem to be appropriate?

Nice ...... the left using ever changing phraseology, hoping it will slow momentum of the growing aversion to their subjective morality while using sarcasm to make someone look small because they 'didn't get the memo'.

Why don't you just call it what it is - infanticide.

Get over this notion Roe v Wade will ever be repealed. There would be
more protests than the early 70 s by those who believe a women's has a
right to choose.
Since when has the specter of protest served as arbiter between right and wrong? Protesting doesn't make a wrong right, it simply illustrates to what degree the kipsters are willing to go to remain wrong. And, we only recently saw what the country thinks about what the left "believes". The left believes in whatever is expedient, even when it's a lie or immoral. For proof, look no further than what they defend and how they defend it.

Al

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momj47(7A)

Whose Christianity? is therefore a silly question,

Oh really. So Free Methodist should be really pleased if the US becomes a Roman Catholic nation.

Or how about Mormon?

Or maybe the Baptists would be pleased if the US becomes a Seventh Day Adventist nation.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Mom - how do you interpret President George Washington's commentary provided below, a commentary that is the polar opposite of your POV . Would you say his views were unpatriotic? simply WRONG? will you go down the weasel hole and say times have changed?

Of all the dispositions
and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are
indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism
who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness ‑these
firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally
with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not
trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be
asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the
sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of
investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the
supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded
to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason
and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in
exclusion of religious principle.


'Tis substantially true
that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule
indeed extends with more or less force to every species of free Government. Who
that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to
shake the foundation of the fabric?

Al

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momj47(7A)

My goodness, I knew the RWNJ's wanted to go back but this is a bit much

It doesn't matter how we interpret what George Washington said.

AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.

And the Founding Fathers took every clear steps to ensure that it would never be one.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

How do you interpret this?

Would you say the Founding Father's views were unpatriotic, or will you go down the weasel hole and say times have changed?

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Dodge much? I already explained what that clause meant. Didn't you get the memo? And your reply isn't even close to an answer - sorry to put you in such a tight spot. Epic fail.

Since you're so interested in the Constitution, what do you think the second clause means, the one about prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Sounds to me like those 'old white guys' were pretty serious about wanting to be sure kids/adults could pray wherever they want to, or offer a moment of silence whenever they thought it appropriate. I really think it's pretty darn clear, ESPECIALLY in light of what part The Founders felt religion and God played in lighting the way for our nation. THAT is undisputable.

BTW - I didn't say the US was a Cristian nation, so you can stash that strawman and save it for someone who doesn't have your number.

Al

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elvis

j47 can't hear you, TR, Al, Green & company. I'm enjoying your posts, though. Thank you for taking the time.

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rgreen48(7a)

"The majority of Christians and decent citizens support a women's right to choose."

Would it be more fair to say that, from your opinion, 'the majority of people who consider themselves as 'Christians'... support a woman's right to choose?'

We've already explored the Bible's view, where the killing of the unborn was punished the same as murder. Christ perfectly obeyed the law. He understood that not all humans would be willing to live a righteous life, but since he was in perfect agreement with his Father, he did not condone killing the unborn.

Just as God says in the Bible that he 'knew' people before they were born - 'before they were formed in the womb' - Jesus too would look at the unborn as his neighbor, and would love them as he did himself.

Christians are not part of this morally subjective world. While they may not voice a political view, they would not 'support a woman's right to choose'. No, a Christian teaches people to love as God loves. And since God treated the unborn as alive, we too express our love for the unborn. A mature Christian, with even a basic understanding of the knowledge taught by God and his son Jesus, would never support the killing of an unborn human being.

There are many people who consider themselves Christians, but who do not desire to walk as Christ. These put their own desires before the will of God. If this fits you, and you desire to do your own will in the supporting of a woman's 'right' to choose an abortion - regardless of what God's word says on the matter - then self-reflection might be something that you may consider.

Most of the scriptural principles were covered in previous comments, but if anyone would like the references, please feel free to ask. If you aren't a Christian, then this may not be relevant to your life.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Elvis - The center and right are gaining ground fast, so what they're hearing now is just a start. If you take into consideration who's leading their party today, who their "leaders" are, the morally bereft reserves waiting in the wings on the bench, and the damage they do to themselves by coming out into the light to put their real nature on full display, you might as well start referring to them as the Desultorian Party. They got no game.


Al

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Ann

I think the Dems are most definitely struggling for the foreseeable future. They are so busy hanging on to anger that they can't even look forward. Elections happen so often, that's a strange course of action.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Thank you for taking the time."


Thank you for your kind words elvis.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Texas, if you think momj was wrestling with which religion to make our country's official religion, then I suggest you have serious reading comprehension problems.

No way momj would ever seriously consider such a possibility--as you would know if you ever paid any attention to other human beings on this forum.

You might also need some remedial classes in satire and sarcasm. Momj's quite good at those--though that seems to have floated right over your head.

And keep in mind that if you are going to attack others, they also have claws and just might scratch back!

Kate


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haydayhayday

For the religious extremes, your absolute faith that you have a direct line to God and that there is, in any sense, an "Absolute Morality" as opposed to us who don't have a direct line and have to trust our "Relative Morality".... however you might choose to express it.... I have news for you.

Your "Absolute Morality" is a "Relative Morality" just like the rest of of us. You're just arrogant enough to think you can speak for God.

Monkeys have morality. Black Widows have morality. You have morality and so do I.

Welcome to the club. Take a seat.

Hay

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Every once in a while I have to break down and say, "good job, hay!"

: )

Kate

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Nice try. What determines how a Christian perceives right and wrong depends almost entirely on 10 laws that are carved in stone. I'm not saying all Christians follow these laws or that there aren't hypocrites among us, but I AM saying that our unchanging set of values are based on something that doesn't change with the direction the PC breeze happens to blow on any given day. The left doesn't use morality as their guide to what's righteous, you use it selectively, putting it on in a fit of righteous outrage like it's a hat, and using it as a weapon against anyone who doesn't agree with you. Your sense of right and wrong is capricious, and is designed to allow you to ignore a conscience, without feeling guilt or remorse, and do as you please w/o the inconvenience of moral restraint. THAT, is the type of morality you invented for yourselves.

In the end, I don't have to claim a direct line to God or even profess that religion has ANY bearing on how Christians or other apostles of the 10 commandments determine right from wrong. All I need to point out is that a Christian's sense of right and wrong comes from the 10 commandments, 10 laws from God that DO NOT CHANGE. What is right and wrong for a Christian is the same today as it was 1,000 years ago, though the Pope is guilty of some overreach from time to time. Your sense of right and wrong is subjective and relative. If your brand of morality is anchored to anything, it's political correctness, which requires abandoning your integrity before you can be welcomed into that fold. That's what makes it funny when a leftist starts preaching. ;-) Take a backseat.

Al

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SaraM

How incredibly sad some of these posts are- the majority do not find this a laughing matter or of needing any type of shock value. Abortion is already is shocking in itself. Also shocking is that this debate even has to occur.

Al has made excellent points, which are based on facts, thousands of years old. We, who support life, are not the ones judging. We, are following the Word of God.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"You're just arrogant enough to think you can speak for God."

Worth repeating.

"They are so busy hanging on to anger that they can't even look forward."

Yes, I remember the conservatives in 2009-16.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Why is it that when someone tells you what they are thinking, you assume it comes from anger or hate? The intolerant and hate-filled left assumes the worst of everyone, and then uses that assumption to justify their selective moral outrage and vilification of ANYONE who doesn't totally agree with their agenda. When someone purposely uses their own tactics against them so they can get a feel for how they behave, suddenly it's anger, reprehensible, or something else from a long list of memorized labels the left uses in an attempt to marginalize detractors. Unfortunately (for you) the jig is up, and your strategy is backfiring in a Big League way. The marginalizers are being marginalized by their own habit of marginalizing all but a few Loony Tunes wackos who faithfully cling to a far left ideology ..... and the justice in that is poetic. You're completely outed and are currently favoring the right by remaining unfadingly locked in the throes of validating what the center and right has thought for a long time. We don't need to be angry or hateful to tell you that, and in many ways, you're amusing. We look at you more like spoiled children that have no understanding of what the future holds in terms of the grief their own petulance will bring them.

Al

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momj47(7A)

Why is it that when someone tells you what they are thinking, you assume it comes from anger or hate?

Because the intolerant, sexist, hate-filled, unjust right wing extremists are ALWAYS posting from anger and hate.

It's not a hard conclusion to draw.

Just look at your dear leader if you want to see an angry hate-filled right wing extremist. He is one dangerous man. And his closest adviser is even angrier and more hate-filled.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

...... she says while inching closer and closer to becoming just another totally unhinged kipster. Rolling out your memorized list of invectives 50 times/day might make the weak thinkers feel good, but it really doesn't serve you well if you're trying to make a point. Try substituting a little imagination for the vitriol and see how that works for you. ;-) And for heaven's sake - get some exercise. Sitting in front of the computer writing hateful post after post 10 hrs/day can't be good for you.

Al

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purrmichigan(5)

Just read your comments. Read them to an objective person. Get a grip.

You think you elected a dictator who will take care of those who speak out against him. That's ridiculous, ignorant of our government and shows hate towards those you don't approve of.

Don't blame the opposition. Take some responsibility like a grown-up.

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purrmichigan(5)

...... she says while inching closer and closer to becoming just another totally unhinged kipster ???? New word for you? Communisty is another. So very clever!! Few have ever written such drivel.

Some here are so busy defending their alternative world. They're clueless about what an ugly place they've created for themselves.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Wow. Quite a rant. ;-) What would your uncle say?

Don't blame the opposition. Take some responsibility like a grown-up. OMG - like you guys did after we handed you your ........ hats in Nov? That kind of responsibility. Do you even have a clue how hypocritical that is?

Al

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Roseberry Ranch

When someone purposely uses their own tactics against them so they can get a feel for how they behave, suddenly it's anger, reprehensible, or something else from a long list of memorized labels the left uses in an attempt to marginalize detractors. Unfortunately (for you) the jig is up, and your strategy is backfiring in a Big League way. The marginalizers are being marginalized by their own habit of marginalizing all but a few Loony Tunes wackos who faithfully cling to a far left ideology ..... and the justice in that is poetic. You're completely outed and are currently favoring the right by remaining unfadingly locked in the throes of validating what the center and right has thought for a long time. We don't need to be angry or hateful to tell you that, and in many ways, you're amusing. We look at you more like spoiled children that have no understanding of what the future holds in terms of the grief their own petulance will bring them.

Very well put Al. It never fails to amaze me how leftists will vilify, and tear down any anyone who won't fall for the hot, steaming pile of horse hockey they throw at conservatives at such a consistent level, that they could put Miracle Gro out of business. And when we have the unmitigated gall use their own tactics against them, then the real name calling begins. If it weren't so darned pitiful,it would be funny.

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haydayhayday

Sitting down for a few minutes before I head out to a night of debauchery.

And I get my best laugh of the day.

Tapla:

" OMG - like you guys did after we handed you your ........ hats in Nov? That kind of responsibility. Do you even have a clue how hypocritical that is?"

Funny. From the man who says he lives by the word of God, the Ten Commandments.

"OMG"

Is that allowed?

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

I don't have a direct line to God, but I thought that's what that commandment was all about.

I'll be back later tonight. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding God.

Hope lightening doesn't strike you meanwhile.

Hay

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purrmichigan(5)

The marginalizers are being marginalized by their own habit of marginalizing

:))))

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Ann

Roseberry, it is kind of funny.

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jodik_gw

Individualism is the very essence of life!

Right down to our very DNA, each one of us is different! We all have different fingerprints, different brain chemistry, and other differences too vast to list! Why would George Washington, or anyone else, think we should all be the same, with the same beliefs and opinions?

Conformity is a social construct built to keep the masses "where they belong", doing what the few at the top need them to do. Religion falls under that same construct, keeping everyone in line through fear or guilt, reward or punishment.

This is precisely why our Constitution and other major documents were written they way they were... so we'd remain a secular nation of individuals with rights and freedoms.

~~~

Abortion is shocking to YOU, SaraM... but you have to remember that not everyone thinks just like you do, or holds the same opinions, or even the same values in life.

Abortion is not shocking to me. What IS shocking to me is how many people want to control others... and aren't happy unless everyone else thinks like they do, believes the same things they do, and holds the same opinions and values they do.



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Campanula UK Z8

I have had 2. It's off to hell for me. Dodged a bullet (or 2) in this life though, that's for sure.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Is there something wrong with the phrase Oh My Goodness? As far as I know, it's not a mortal sin. And before you scoff, I used that acronym with purpose to see who would bite. You assumed the worst and try to ridicule someone for something you assumed. Strong work. Also, you use another of your own constructs to suggest I said I live by the word of God. I never said that. I said my sense of right and wrong is based on a rigid set of rules, unlike the left's whose "values" are moored to nothing. What guides the left has nothing to do with the heavenly virtues and much to do with things more centered on the self, like expediency and the fickle winds of political correctness. You can join the others in the back seat.

Al

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Roseberry Ranch

I had it wrong. I always thought it meant Oh My Gosh. I was wondering what Hay was going on about. Now I am laughing at the entire scenario. LOL

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momj47(7A)

I had it wrong. I always thought it meant Oh My Gosh

You have got to be kidding

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purrmichigan(5)

What would your uncle say?

My uncle? Feeling okay? I know you make up imaginary words but please don't make up imaginary uncles for me. Weirdo.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Run off on as many tangents as you want, change the subject as often as you can (deflect, deflect, deflect), that still doesn't change the FACT announced in the OP, namely, that --

"Sixty-nine percent of Americans now oppose overturning Roe v. Wade, according to a Pew Research Center report published Tuesday. This marks a six-point increase in public support for the 1973 Supreme Court decision since Pew last asked about it in 2013. "

Kate

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Roseberry Ranch

I had it wrong. I always thought it meant Oh My Gosh

You have got to be kidding

No, not kidding at all. I am very serious about never using His name in vain. But some folks wouldn't understand such a concept.

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elvis

Al, Not "uncle", although why PM used that mix-up as an excuse to call you "weirdo" is beyond me. Perhaps PM was practicing humility, as she understands it. PM claimed that her grandfather was a preacher, who taught PM "humility"...

puremichigan60(5)

"nancy, please don't judge organized religion by what you see here. There's a church for everyone - agnostic and atheist as well. Many routes lead to God.

My grandfather was a Lutheran pastor. I learned from him humility."

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Ann

Elvis, lol:)

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purrmichigan(5)

If I acted like my grandfather here on HT, I would bulldozed. Since I'm not willing to let that happen, if attacked I will attack back.

Yep. it was my grandfather. Some are so busy using their thesaurus to comment here, they lose the gist.

Keep on tryin'

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Ann

We have no doubt whatsoever that you'll attack, PM!

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Roseberry Ranch

So pure, your grandpa was a heavy equipment operator eh ?

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purrmichigan(5)

Such narrow thinking and unevolved. If you think my comment was ridiculous, I'm going to assume you live in a small town, very homogenous and don't get out much.

I also believe in second chances and changing your mind, which is why an atheist could very well go to heaven.

Enjoy!

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

If I acted like my grandfather here on HT, I would bulldozed. Is there a translator in the house, please?

Thanks
for the nice compliment, too. I've never used a Thesaurus to write a
reply here on HT, but that you think I must be looking words up is your
first kindness to me, though obviously unintended. I wonder what you
would think if I REALLY went all sesquipedalian on you? No, I didn't look that up either.

Thanks, Elvis. I'll be sure to remember that. Was it you that told me he said he was a Sunday school teacher?

Interesting story about him learning his 'humility' from his
grandfather. In the same vein, my grandfather was a matador. I learned
from him kindness to animals.

***********************************************************************************

"Sixty-nine percent of Americans now oppose overturning Roe v. Wade, according to a Pew Research Center report
published Tuesday. This marks a six-point increase in public support
for the 1973 Supreme Court decision since Pew last asked about it in
2013. "
Oookay ....... last I checked, we don't take polls to
determine what's Constitutional and what isn't. Feel me? If 69% of the
population thought it was appropriate to flog anyone spouting far left
rhetoric in the center of the town square, would that be ok, too? I
didn't think so, so let's talk about the Constitution that protects you
from floggings. I can't find anything in the Constitution that gives the
FedGov authority to pass legislation re men's/women's
reproductive rights, and there is nothing said about infanticide or abortion either.
You don't see that as a potential problem when the next abortion case is heard by SCOTUS? I do.

Al

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purrmichigan(5)

Those that will be headed downstream are the most vocal naysayers.

Once you show this thinking ^^^^^^^ it's all we need to know.

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elvis

Thanks, Elvis. I'll be sure to remember that. Was it you that told me he said he was a Sunday school teacher?

No, wasn't me, but I am one of those who remember when PM posted her "bona fides".

That's "credentials" if anyone can't find the thesaurus.

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SandyC.
Heard a great podcast on NPR today. Organized religion is at an all time low. Young people are not flocking to religious institutions for community and fellowship. They are forming their own sources of community, such as yoga, meditation, book clubs, dance.
When polled young people still say they have a faith, but don't necessarily follow an organized religion.
I think young people see the hypocrisy of the evangelicals who hopped on the racist Trump train, spewing fear and hate. The anti immigrant agenda is certainly not what a person of faith would support.
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Roseberry Ranch

It's a shame they can't see the racist, hate filled Christophobic minions of the devil that called themselves progressives. But one thing is sure, if they are a child of God's, then they will eventuall see the lies they are told, and return to their Father and He will welcome them home.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

The anti immigrant agenda is certainly not what a person of faith would support. Says you ..... and soo poorly reasoned. How do you explain the overwhelming evangelical vote that shunned Old Hills in favor of the likes of now President Trump?

Al

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SandyC.
"Christophobic" ha, ha, is that what alt right sites call it?
Is that the same as reverse racism, for the poor white man. Such nonsense. Christians are not discriminated against. . Hypocrites that call themselves Christian and refer to our president in a racial slur are just plain racists........

Christians in this country are not a group that has been discriminated against.
Do you believe we should keep our percentages of "immigrants " (Muslims) below a certain percentage, lol? Do you believe as Richard Spencer does, that we should go back to our white Euro, Judea Christian roots, and all others should go back to their native country?
Some great interviews on Breitbart radio with Bannon, Miller and some other white supremacists spewing their hate filled rhetoric.
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Roseberry Ranch

They can't, it's just grasping for straws.

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SandyC.
"How do you explain the overwhelming evangelical vote that voted against old Hills"
I proved my point!
Overwhelmingly, evangelicals are thrilled to see a Trump racist, white supremacist agenda try to come to fruition. They are nothing more than hypocrites.Unfortunately they may have to see a few more dark skinned people taking over our country, oh Lordy....and Muslim to boot! As it doesn't appear Trump will get anyone in Homeland Security to support a Muslim ban, as there is no evidence, banning certain nationalities helps prevent terrorism. His urgent act of a Muslim ban to keep us safe, seems to behaving a few problems passing constitutional muster.
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elvis

I think young people see the hypocrisy of the evangelicals who hopped on the racist Trump train, spewing fear and hate.

Sounds just like one of my least favorite opinion show pundits, Sean Hannity of FOX. He always complaining about "spewing". I'll bet old Sandy watches FOX a LOT.

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purrmichigan(5)

How do you explain the overwhelming evangelical vote that shunned Old Hills in favor of the likes of now President Trump?

Hypocrisy - as it shown by some here on HT.

Those "evangelicals" are frauds. Anyone can call themselves a person of faith. When it comes down to it, how you vote shows a lot more than the blah blah blah of ^^^^^^^^^^^.

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Caree

'The anti immigrant agenda is certainly not what a person of faith would support.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Anti-immigrant'?

Immigration is a legal process. Bucking the queue, squeezing others out to cross the border, breaking immigration law is not. Drug and other trafficking is not.

Canada, the 'bravo wonderful' country (other thread), has a strict immigration process that selectively screens potential immigrants to allow entry only to those individuals who meet criteria indicating that they will contribute positively to their country. Screening, which they are also doing with the 40,000 people they are willing to take in from the States under a strictly defined ... refugee ... status.

The majority of Canada's citizens are strongly opposed to their small illegal population which are very very low numbers to say the least, compared to what the United States is experiencing nothing.

  • US: 11,200,000 - 15,000,000 illegals (3.5% - 4.6% of pop)
  • Canada: 100,000 per govt. Maybe 80,000 - 500,000 per a news article. (0.0027% - 0.0135% of pop)

You can't just walk across the Canadian border and move in. They will kick you out.

So trash them too.

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Caree



Illegal immigration to Canada

Public opinions

Canadian citizens have voiced strong opinions regarding illegal immigrants within Canada. A poll conducted of 1,200 telephone interviews of adult Canadians gathered feedback on positive and negative opinions regarding illegal immigrants settled in Canada.

Being a developed country, residents believe strongly that only individuals who migrate legally should be allowed to mix with society.

A national poll revealed that two thirds of Canadians believe that any resident of Canada who is illegal should be deported. Considering factors such as: individuals who are positively contributing to the economy and who have studied in Canada that have the potential to contribute to the Canadian economy should also all be deported. Quebec was the only province that reached a level of 70% where individuals stated that “reasonable accommodations” should be made for illegal immigrants rather than simply deporting them.

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Caree



Legal

Canada has an immigration program which is established for every migrant wishing to immigrate to Canada. This program seeks individuals who will have the highest chances of providing positive input into the Canadian economy. By example, the New Federal Skilled Worker Program (FSWP) measures the capabilities of individuals who are required to meet a passing mark, in order to have their application accepted. The passing mark currently is 67 out of a 100 in six categories: education, work experience, language, age, arranged employment, and adaptability (such as any previous work or education acquired within Canada). The FSWP program in 2011 admitted more than 57, 000 immigrants alongside their spouses and any other dependent individuals. This program is effective and most successful method of skilled labour immigrating to Canada legally.

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Caree



Statistics

The last audit of the Canadian population was performed in 2003 that indicated approximately 36,000 more individuals over a span of 6 years became illegal residents within Canada. These statistics are considered inaccurate because, Canada does not record the information of illegal individuals leaving the country, but it is the last authentic value provided. Estimates made by the federal government account for 100,000 illegal immigrants who are still residing across Canada

Auditor General Sheila Fraser who worked for a 10-year period in the office of the Auditor General of Canada stated in 2008 that Canada’s border agency has lost track of 41,000 individuals who have been ordered to be deported.

Canada’s border agency is removing illegal immigrants in Canada regularly in a respective, safe, and effective manner. Although in some cases individuals can be removed immediately, or allowed a temporary access into Canada with a Temporary Resident Permit as long as they do not pose a threat to Canadians. The Temporary Resident Permit ... are issued based on technical, criminal history, or medical reasons that allow legal residency for a period ranging from one day to three years. During this time period, the legal documents are gathered for individuals to be deported back to the country they emigrated from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_Canada

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haydayhayday

Oh My Gosh and Oh My Goodness are just euphemisms for Oh My God.

You think God can't see through your trickery?

Gosh Darn it.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I stopped reading the Bible so long ago that I've forgotten most of it. Thank Goodness.

All I know about Ark of the Covenant is that it had something to do with a bit of fiction...Indiana Jones and something or another. Something like that.