I think with five people cooking you're going to need that prep sink. Remind him that anything that needs to be prepped usually needs to be washed first so what he's proposing is washing it at the sink (while probably bumping into the other cooks), then carrying it across the aisle to the island to prep, and then carrying again across another aisle to cook it.

One other thought that has nothing to do with the kitchen. It appears you have to carry laundry through your living room, dining room to get to the laundry room. Are you sure you want to be carrying laundry all that distance back and forth instead of having it closer to the bedrooms?

I will try to wear him down concerning the prep sink...anything in possible.

Yes we've considered the pros & cons of having the laundry there...in the end this location won.

Love the design plan! Bet your so excited!

I have to agree with your hubby on no prep sink in the island!

You and hub's will be the main chefs in that kitchen the majority of the time anyway especially once those kiddos start to get older and more involved in school, sports, and their other activities.

Not only will you love the wide flat open clean space for prep on your island but when you have parties and all your food etc is there you won't have dirty dishes or a dirty sink for guests to get grossed out at. I went to a party 4 years ago that had all this food set up on the island and as I moved down the island picking up food I came to the sink area where the food was nearby and I was very grossed out. There were no dirty dishes in the sink, but still to me that is a big turn off. I never forgot it. Ewww :/

You can put a SS plate or a BB cutout over the prep sink opening if you are using the island for serving.

I cook our meals from scratch and do a lot of baking. We have one kiddo who is 5. She is in the kitchen with me half of the time, and even as she gets older and is involved with more stuff I hope she keeps helping me in the kitchen sometimes.

I hate cleaning drips of the floor.

My 3 kids do all sorts of activities, but they still have to eat, a lot! The demands on our kitchen have only increased.

I would keep the prep sink. But, what is the clearance in front of the frig? If it's french door the natural landing space is that island and the sink is right there. And that spot would be a bottle neck for us.

Could you just shift the oven cabinet back into the kitchen? Just shrink or remove a cabinet on the dining room side of the cooktop? It seems like you still have a landing spot there.

The new little counter next to the frig does not seem to be a landing spot for the frig. Knowing our crew it would just collect clutter.

jmarino I'd rather not lose any counter space...especially on either side of the range. I was thinking of using the counter near the fridge as a coffee spot rather then having that coffee station near the pantry.

I echo CPArtist - you will need that prep sink! You have a lot of years ahead of you with multiple cooks in the Kitchen!

Key elements of a good Prep Zone include:

• Water
• Sufficient counterspace (bare minimum is 36", much better is at least 42")
• Trash & recycle bins in the Prep Zone or next to the prep sink
• Close to the Cooking Zone (range/cooktop)
• Ideally - separated from the Cleanup Zone.

The island will not work well as a Prep Zone without a sink. You may plan to use it, but when you end up picking up the food and moving it over and over again, you will end up not using it much - or, if someone is forced into it b/c someone else is using the space b/w the cleanup sink and cooktop, not only will the cleanup sink become a choke point b/c everyone is trying to use it, but it will be annoying to everyone to have to wait around for the water and/or move out of the other person's way! If someone else is also cleaning up, then it becomes an even bigger issue!

Please, do yourselves a big favor - add a prep sink to the island. It will make your lives easier and meal prep more pleasant (and more fun)!

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Is that window finalized? Could it either be made much wider (toward the pantry) or moved (again, toward the pantry) and the sink moved in that direction? That DW will be an issue for anyone prepping at the island while someone else is cleaning up. You don't want to trip over or back into an open DW door, especially with a knife in your hand!

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BTW...I agree with those on the Building A Home forum. You really need some landing space next to the ovens and b/w them and the cooktop. You also don't want the cooktop too close to the corner b/c then it will interfere with the Prep Zone on the window wall as well as make it a tight fit for someone trying to work at the cooktop. With small kitchens, sometimes you end up with the cooktop or range only 12" from the corner as a compromise, but your kitchen is not small.

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You have quite a bit of wasted counterspace b/w the sink & "Coffee Station" - it's not particularly useful b/c it's too far from the cooktop and the DW is in the way b/w that counter and the sink. It could serve as a last-ditch prep area, but it would not be convenient.

Is the above layout with or without the additional 16"? I'm assuming without b/c the beam is still running "through" the ovens. So, you really have another 16" in Kitchen depth that isn't shown here -- correct?

"BTW...I agree with those on the Building A Home forum. You really need some landing space next to the ovens and b/w them and the cooktop"

buehl are you saying that the space there now is not sufficient?

I am not a layout guru but will share my personal experience. My main and only sink is in the island. I have a nice chunk of counter on the side of my stove that has a window and no cabinet in my face and I still end up on the island by the sink. So even if I start out trying to prep there I end up by the sink/trash. If you are planning on prepping at your island I think you will miss no sink there.

I love your large front facing window. Good luck!

You could cover it up, but it's still there. Yucky when you have company IMO. I'm ok being the minority :) I'm not sure why you would have dripping on the floor Iowacommute? I don't have that problem, but I do clean my floors alot too. I guess I must be really anal. LOL

jmarino19 of course they have to eat! LOL. You misunderstood my point. It's not about the kids eating it's the lack of time the kids will have to be prepping. My kids have grown up in the kitchen learning how to cook and to this day still love it. I love it too and cook most meals at home. We have never had a problem with one sink. Mine still help when they can on weekends and especially time off from school, but you will see as they get older and have increased activities and school demands they have less and less time to do it unfortunately. Sad,but true. My friends and I say we are now like personal assistants for them. Ugh!

Ultimately I think it's a total personal preference. If it is so important to function than do it if one just won't work. In a very large kitchen and there is a big distance from sink to island it actually could be a pain in the ass for even 1 cook!

buel you wrote:

"The island will not work well as a Prep Zone without a sink."

is that your opinion or are you saying that because the main sink in the layout is so far from that area?

cpartist gotcha yeah guess it's not been an issue here. Don't be sorry my kids aren't around to help in the kitchen much because of their busy schedules. It is what it is. They know how to do it... they just can't. I don't know how old your kids are, but times are sure different from when I grew up. We did what your kids did and yes it was so helpful for me when I was on my own. Not only am I a neat freak from all that, I am actually a better cook than my mom. Sorry mom, but she knows it too :) The kids helping around the house topic comes up with my group of friends often. We don't have a solution other than have them help with things when they can and they do. Great kids, very smart with lots of opportunities coming their way. Just too many demands pushed down on them mainly from school :( I have to pick my battles. I guess this topic goes somewhere else lol.

jo the pantry in your design is gonna be the bomb! not gonna lie a little jealous of that :)

A key element of a functional Prep Zone includes water. Without water, you're running around the Kitchen from one place to the other b/c you need water - whether it's cleaning/rinsing veggies & fruit, adding water as an ingredient, washing your hands after handling raw meat or messy ingredients, etc.

Yes, experience. In our old kitchen, I had 24" b/w the sink and range and it was too cramped to work there. I tried prepping on the kitchen table, but I was running back & forth b/w the sink and table, etc. So, in the end, I ended up prepping in that 24" b/c I needed water access! I had to juggle dishes, ingredients, etc., just to have room for prepping. In addition, b/c we had only one sink, I was competing with dirty dishes and, often, my DH, for sink access. Cooking was not particularly fun b/c of all this. The lack of counterspace and, to some extent, sink sharing were probably the #1 drivers for our remodel (oh, and the fact that most of our cabinets were falling apart and were dysfunctional overall).

With the remodel, I have 42" of space b/w the cooktop and prep sink and I love it! It is so nice not to have to share the sink with dirty dishes and to have easy access to water and a sink!

Regarding busy children - ours were busy as well - sports, scouts, music, etc. - but they both helped out in the kitchen - both cleaning up and cooking. They still do when they're home from college. B/c of what they learned, they had no problems adjusting to off-campus living - they already knew how to cook, cleanup, clean bathrooms :-), do laundry, etc. It probably helped that both my DH and I worked outside the home full-time so we all had limited time, but I think it would have been the same even if I had been a stay-at-home mom.

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My statement about the landing space is that yes, if you want to move the ovens into the kitchen by those 16", you don't want to reduce the landing space you have b/w the ovens & cooktop now - it looks to be around 24". I thought someone said something about that on your other thread, but I may be remembering incorrectly. Regardless, to maintain the spacing you have now and still move the ovens into the Kitchen so the beam doesn't cross over the ovens, I think you need to add 16" to the depth of the Kitchen.

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Jocrochet...All we want for you is a wonderfully functional kitchen (that also looks nice) - like most of us have b/c of what we learned and paid attention to here on the forum. For me, without the folks here patiently explaining over & over why some things would/would not work, my kitchen would not be nearly as great as it is - in fact, I shudder to think of what it would have been!

8.5 years later, I still occasionally do the "happy dance" in my kitchen - I want you to be able to say the same!

How do you and your husband prep now?

I, personally, can't imagine myself prepping w/o a nearby sink. I often find myself rinsing my hands/my knife several times even when I'm dicing a few pre-washed tomatoes or some other veggie. If you or your husband is like me, you definitely need a second sink or least should consider one of those big sinks, like Stages/Galley.

Most here are not an opponent or proponent of the prep sink itself but whether the layout demands it. For me what I was trying to say is no matter where my nice stretch of counter is I always gravitate toward the sink to prep and my sink is in the island. I do have a nice space there also but I gravitate toward the sink not the window.

The OP wrote that her husband wanted to keep the island without a sink for a nice prep space yet with no water it may not end up being where they land to prep in reality. It's just how prep functions.

Thanks everyone:) The jut out of 16" will add 38 sq ft and although this house is much larger than I initially planned I think this increase is much needed.

I will continue to talk to my husband about the prep sink and show him your comments. You don't have to convince me of its importance.

Without changing too much here.... I thought this might be the simplest.

If you wanted to add depth to the entire kitchen (move bottom wall down 16"), or if you wanted to reconfigure the entry/laundry/pantry space, you will certainly have other options.

But, this works leaving most everything alone. Your seating bench gets shorter by whatever depth countertop you choose next to the fridge.

Since you are building this? I would make sure to put the plumbing in the foundation for the prep sink. So that minds can be cost effectively changed later. it is not worth fighting about now.

Maybe this humorous thread will help?

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

In your case, the lack of a prep sink in the island is fine IF you prep b/w the sink and cooktop, not the island. If you want the island for a Prep Zone (and I would!), then you need the sink. Maybe stressing that to your DH will help?

I think Practigal has a good idea - put in the plumbing rough-ins now so you can just hook them up if your DH finally realizes that a prep sink would make life so much easier!

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Here are the other Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

BTW, a prep sink rarely takes a way from the wonderful expanse of workspace - it enhances it and makes it much more useful! If it were a tiny island, I would agree with your DH, but your island is not tiny.

Buehl I'm glad you posted that

i don't know who marcolo is but that's freaking hilarious

i'm glad you posted that for jo in case it doesn't work for her to have a prep sink but great idea practigal to get plumbed ahead of time. Good thinking girl!

I never knew about that ice, water, stone, fire thing but it is so true! I guess I just automatically do it without having a name to it.

But that post brings up great advice for people planning a layout:

if the main sink is not located where it needs to be. It may cross paths with other kitchen invaders. Or it simply fails to follow the order Ice-Water-Stone-Fire in a really glaring and inefficient way.

That sounds a lot better than saying

"The island will not work well as a Prep Zone without a sink." As you posted.

Works great for me not to have it in the island and can work fine for others who so chose the same too. Everyone can and will have different opinions and that awesome ...that will help better inform the person trying to make a decision from others experience.

Somehow you and sena10 took away from my post that I don't have running water in my kitchen and that I'm running around trying to find it. Really?! Let's not exaggerate you make it sound like I'm on drugs cooking at a campsite.

No, we are responding to Jocrochet's comment that they plan to use the island for prepping. However, without a prep sink, it will not work well for that task.

Jocrochet also stated that they are a 5-cook family -- so only one truly functional Prep Zone will not work well for them.

We're trying to help make Jocrochets kitchen as functional as possible - and that includes making the island function well as a Prep Zone.

No one was addressing your cooking habits MaWizz, so please do not project our comments to Jocrochet onto yourself.

No MaWizz, what we were trying to say is if her husband wants to prep on the sink, then there needs to be a water source there.

I personally don't want to prep on my island because I'm getting older and don't want to be carrying cut veggies, meat, etc back and forth across the aisle. I'm envisioning my mother when she became frail and how difficult it would have been for her if she didn't have her prep zone between her sink and cooktop.

That's why in my kitchen, the prep sink is on the perimeter and my cleanup sink is on the island. We clean as we go, so I'm not really worried about dirty dishes laying around my island. LOL.

LOL buehl

Buehl my bad! I thought you were saying that in my response to my comment to jo. I was like geez chill!

I don't recall posting to you cp...not sure why your responding to posts to Buehl?

CPArtist cross-posted with me and was just responding in general about it (hence the "LOL" post). Please be aware that we work as a "community", we respond to questions regardless of who they are addressed to. Sometimes, the person called out doesn't get back to the thread until days later (often happens to me b/c of work & family obligations), so rather than make someone wait for an answer, we respond. CPArtist understood, so she responded.

Jocrochet...here's what I was talking about (moving the sink & adding the prep sink) and what you were talking about (adding 16" and moving the Coffee Station/Center).

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Alternate Sink...

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Prep Zones...

• This layout gives you two nice primary Prep Zones, with the one on the sink wall capable of handling two preppers, if needed. Both Prep Zones have water access.
• You could also have a secondary Prep Zone on the Cleanup Zone side of the cleanup sink as long as no one is cleaning up or unloading the DW.

See the Zone Map at the end.

Island...

• Seats three easily
• To increase the expanse of workspace and increase storage, it contains a set of cabinets on the back. The ends of the space contain 12" wide cabs that open out to the sides. B/w the two end cabinets is a 33" wide x 12" deep cabinet that opens under the overhang. I recommend storing seasonal or other seldom-used items.
• I put in a MW drawer b/c they are much more functional than a standard MW under the counter. Drawers are designed to be operated from above - standard MWs are designed to be operated at waist level or above and from the front, not top.
  -- Accessing controls and contents inside the MW are much, much easier with a drawer than a standard placed in an alcove under the counter.
  -- If you'd rather have a counter MW, consider placing it on the wide expanse of counter b/w the sink and Pantry - there's plenty of room there and it will not interfere with prepping or cleaning up.
• Note that the MW is facing the side of the island, not the front. This is so someone can use the MW (for cooking or a snack) without getting in the way of the person prepping at the island.

Refrigerator & Coffee Station...

• The refrigerator is a standard-depth refrigerator. You could put in a counter-depth, but to be honest, I don't think a 36" wide CD refrigerator will be big enough for a family of 5. It wasn't big enough for our family of 4 (especially when our 2 entered the pre-teen and teen years!). We ended up with a second refrigerator in the basement.
• The refrigerator is "below" the Coffee station so the island is not a "barrier island" - a barrier b/w the refrigerator & island Prep Zone, b/w the refrigerator & perimeter Prep Zone, and b/w the refrigerator & Cooking Zone.
• The Coffee Station is a 33" wide space with a 30" base cabinet and 30" upper cabinet.
  -- The base cabinet is pulled out from the wall so it appears to be 30" deep. This is to give you plenty of depth at the Station for both the coffee machine and workspace in front of it. (The counter is 31.5" deep since counters overhang cabinets by an average of 1.5". You might be able to get a base cab 27" or 30" deep, but not all cabinet lines have them.)
  -- The upper cabinet is 15" deep for more storage for mugs, etc.
  -- If you get a shallower refrigerator (counter-depth or built-in), then you may have to reduce the depth of the base cab & counter by about 3" so the doors of the refrigerator can open fully.

Cleanup Zone & Dish Storage...

• There is plenty of dish storage on the DW side of the cleanup sink - and that's the Cleanup Zone.
• Dishes are stored where someone unloading the DW can easily reach the cabinets (upper & base). This location will also allow someone setting the table (or getting dishes for a snack) to get to the dishes w/o having to cross through the busy Prep and Cooking Zones while a meal is being prepared.
• The cleanup sink is either a double-bowl sink in a 45" sink base or a 48" sink base with a sink similar to a Kohler Stages 45 sink. Of course, you make the sink whichever configuration you prefer - even if it's not one of the two suggestions.

Aisles...

• The main work aisle is are wider (51") to make it easier for two or more people to prep in the same work aisle. The wider aisle also makes it easier to go to/from the refrigerator w/o getting in the way of others working in the aisle.
• The other aisles are wide enough for easy access to the appliances on each.

Landing Space...

• Oven landing space is either the 22" of counterspace b/w the cooktop and oven cabinet or on the island across from the ovens. If there is someone sitting at the island, the side counter will obviously be preferred.
• Refrigerator landing space is on the island - which makes it very convenient for the island Prep Zone. While it's not as convenient for the perimeter Prep Zone, it's not out of the way.

Pantry doorway...is a standard 32" doorway. This allows the Coffee Station to be a bit wider.

Regarding the trash pullout...I put it in the perimeter Prep Zone and not the island b/c you could put a trash can under the island Prep Zone for use by the person prepping at the island. There's only room for one person to prep on the island (at least on the working side), so it would not be an issue accessing the trash under the sink. If you would rather, you could take 15" to 18" from the 27" cabinet for another trash bin (1-bin or 2-bin, respectively), but that would reduce your storage in the island. It's up to you.

If a trash can was under the cleanup sink, then it would be an issue if more than one person was working on the perimeter - someone working at the sink (cleaning up or prepping) would have to move out of the way for someone else to get to the trash can. By having a trash pullout, the person (people) prepping on the perimeter can use the trash bins w/o interfering with someone at the sink (e.g., someone cleaning up).

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Zone Map:

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@ MaWizz

Somehow you and sena10 took away from my post that I don't have running water in my kitchen and that I'm running around trying to find it. Really?! Let's not exaggerate

If you mean me by "sena10", my comment was directed to Jocrochet, not you.

As buehl indicated we are sometimes late in our responses for various reasons. I'm from a different time zone for example. So I'm glad when another member step in on my behalf (and word it much better than I can, since I'm not a native speaker).

Sena01 we are past that ... see above. It's all good.

That alternate sink even one 31" wide or so can do double duty for cleanup and prep if you install a faucet at each rear corner. Kohler Karbons look good. One on the prep corner to also be a pot filler. And a gooseneck on the DW corner if two seems too much.

Dan I don't see either of those double sinks posted as anything more than eye candy. Where is the prep space for them?

Wow Buehl!! Thanks so much for putting time into improving our kitchen. It functions beautifully. I do wish the sink and windows were centered with the island but I see the functionality.

When you're in the kitchen you will never notice that it's not centered.

The pic is an example of dual faucets only. I'd install them at the corners of a 31" or so single bowl main sink. It would be nice to position the sink to increase the prep space side between the sink and the range. Moving it more to the side of the window. The person prepping there would be standing with the center view. That makes the best modern day use of the window. No one hand washes dishes anymore.. . . . .The island is open and still usable for baking, secondary prep without water and as a clean entertainment space. And a large surface for a beautiful piece of stone

The pic is an example of dual faucets only.

So you removed the pictures because you realized they showed what I was saying. You had posted 2 pictures of kitchens with dual sinks; one with a DW between two farmhouse sinks. In fact here's one of the pictures dan posted that I had commented on:

Woodland Addition & Renovation · More Info

And here's the other one he posted but now claims he wasn't talking about:

Vermont Hilltop Home · More Info

The problem I see with trying to put two sinks on the window wall is that you will have the two cooks bumping into each other as they try to go to/from their Prep Zone & the Cooking Zone.

With one Prep Zone on the wall and one in the island, they each have their own "path" to/from their Prep Zone and the Cooking Zone.

See how two cooks are separated from each other? The wider aisle plus the very separate locations of the Prep Zones - with water in each - makes this layout work.

Regarding centering the cleanup sink on the island, to do so would then put the DW directly behind the person prepping on the island. If someone is using the DW (loading/unloading/putting something in/taking something out) while someone else is working at the island, the open DW door poses a hazard for the person at the island. They could accidentally back into it and lose their balance (or even get a bad bruise). By offsetting the DW from the island, you eliminate that risk.

In addition, the offset allows four or more people to be working -

• One person on the pantry side of the cleanup sink loading/unloading the DW or rinsing dishes, etc.
• One person at the island prepping
• One person on the cooktop side of the sink prepping
• One person getting dishes out for setting the table

With the ovens on the far side, you could even have someone rolling out dough on the back side of the island at the same time all those other people are working! Access to the ovens and the trays above (cookie sheets, cooling racks, etc.) is right there!

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Buehl what are the dimensions of the island you're proposing? Also, with the cabinets on the back that you had mentioned...will that allow for drawers on the front of the island?

Oh, sorry, I forgot to add that information!

84" wide x 54" deep

cpartist you're hallucinating or hallucinterneting or something. No pics of two sinks are on my puter to post cause I don't consider that a efficient option when compared with one big single bowl sink in this space and TWO faucets. A near perfect option considering normal work timing. Mixing a Karbon on the prep side with a gooseneck with pullout head on the DW side will make it appear less unusual until next year when everyone's using it.

cpartist it wasn't dan that posted the double sink pics it was someone named warren that had posted directly after dan....he has obviously deleted his post though.

Man I thought I was losing it because I saw that pic too! Phew!

Please accept my apologies Dan for accusing you. Mea culpa. I guess I was hallucinating or hallucinternetting. I probably saw your name, read the next post and then made my comment thinking you had said it. :) Thankfully I wasn't hallucinating the pictures.

Jocrochet, thank you for correcting me.