Effects Of Feminisim On MEN

Rose
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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

If it's so interesting maybe you would care to discuss it, provide an excerpt instead of a You tube video link perhaps nobody who wishes to be careful with their computer should open.

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SandyC.

I try not to answer these silly posts. It was said on another one of these NO TOPIC posts, Houzz may hire people to generate clicks and therefore show their customers click # s for ads.

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Rose

The irony is strong with these two.

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jillinnj

Is there a topic you want to discuss?

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SandyC.
SOB, there you got another click!
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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

The irony is strong with these two.

It continues to appear that your main interest here is to bother other posters.

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Zeus


http://micahjmurray.com/how-feminism-hurts-men/

Yesterday somebody on Facebook told me that feminism elevates women at the expense of men, that its agenda to validate women emasculates us guys.

He was right.

For men, the rise of feminism has relegated us to second-class status. Inequality and discrimination have become part of our everyday lives.

Because of feminism, men can no longer walk down the street without fear of being catcalled, harassed, or even sexually assaulted by women. When he is assaulted, the man is blamed – the way he dressed he was “asking for it”.

Because of feminism, there are no major Christian conferences about how to act like men, where thousands of men can celebrate their manliness and Jesus (and perhaps poke fun at female stereotypes).

Because of feminism, church stages and spotlights are often dominated by women. Men are encouraged to just serve in the nursery or kitchen. Sometimes men are even told to stay silent in church.

Because of feminism, women make more money than man in the same jobs.

Because of feminism, it’s hard to find a movie with a heroic male lead anymore. Most blockbusters feature a brave woman who saves the world and gets a token man as a trophy for her accomplishments.

Because of feminism, women’s professional sports are a massively profitable enterprise where women are globally idolized. Men only appear briefly, before commercial breaks, when they’re objectified for their bodies.

Because of feminism, all birth control is covered for women without question or debate, while men have to fight to get insurance companies to pay for their Viagra prescriptions. When men do speak up about this, leaders of the “family friendly” right wing labels them “sluts” and “whores”.

Because of feminism, the male body is constantly under public scrutiny. If a man appears topless on TV, it’s a national scandal resulting in huge fines and boycotts. Bloggers regularly write about how we need to be more mindful of the ways our clothing choices tempt women to sin. Satirists insist that shorts “aren’t really pants” and then men should cover up because “nobody wants to see that”.

Because of feminism, men are not represented in the White House, and women hold over 80% of the seats in Congress. When a man runs for office, his physical appearance and clothing choices are discussed almost as much as his policies and ideas.

Because of feminism, men must fight for a voice in the public sphere. In issues of theology, politics, science, and philosophy, the female perspective is often considered default, normal, and unbiased. Male perspectives are dismissed for being too subjective or too emotional. When we speak up, we are often dismissed as angry, rebellious, subversive, or dangerous.

But stay strong, bros.

One day we’ll all be equal.

Whatever you do, don’t read Jesus Feminist. It’s full of ideas that will continue to oppress and harm men — ideas such as “women are people too” and “the dignity of and rights of women are as important as those of men”.

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Rose

Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

The irony is strong with these two.

It continues to appear that your main interest here is to bother other posters.
_________________________________________________________

It continues to appear that your main interest here is to be bothered by other posters.

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jodik_gw

Don't feed it... I keep saying it.

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Zeus

I know. I am bored today...

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chase_gw

Learned my lesson when my daughter was two.......best to ignore attempts to garner attention.

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youngquinn_gw

ok then , lets stop ...make feminism illegal......thats what you want rose? I mean if the men cant cope then the women should just fall into line

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dockside_gw

I didn't click on the youtube video. But, from the headline rose posted, I assume it was something negative about feminism. I wonder, rose, if you have ever pondered the effects on women being subjugated to men, beat up, killed, made to feel the lesser of the two, etc., etc., etc.? As youngquinn intimated, if these men can't cope, too bad. I was tired of coping 50 years ago and, thus, am a feminist. A proud one until the day I die. And the men in my life agree with me. It hasn't made them feel one bit less masculine. Maybe because they are sure of their masculinity.

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youngquinn_gw

rose are you saying you should not do something that is just and fair....because it makes life difficult for another sector of the population? along with dockside I could not give a hoot if some men find feminism hard to deal with.....their problem!!


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Olychick

I didn't click on the link because I care not one whit what feminism's effect on men is. My concern is what feminism's effect is on women. And everything else's effect for that matter.

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ann_t

Rose is probably married to a man who has a problem with feminism. Probably does what she is told.

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cait1

My concern is what feminism's effect is on women.

The effect feminists have had on me is that I can't stand feminists.

Every one is unique. Groupthink destroys the individual.

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jillinnj

cait speaking out against 'groupthink'.

hahahahaha!

The conservatives are on a roll tonight! Just too funny.

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Ann

I'm a woman and I equate feminism with whining. Women who don't waste their time whining about their supposed lack of equality go very far in life. Just ask all the female CEOs in the country.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Just ask all the female CEOs in the country.

All 21 of them out of the Fortune 500. That is 4.2%. Some "supposed" lack of equality.

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wildchild2x2

Thanks for the link Rose.

Strong women don't need to hide behind feminism. Strong women and strong men get along just fine. Partners, not combatants.

I am fortunate to have had many real men in my life. More than most people get. I am also fortunate to have a masculine son and son in law. They cherish their wives and their wives are independent and free to be themselves. The so called feminists will never get it. They can't experience it because of all the barriers their emotional thinking puts up.

Not like the feminists I see who are trapped in their agenda, anxieties and fear.




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Zeus

What does "real men" and "masculine" mean? Are there fake men?

I appreciate the strong women who have preceded me in life. I like being able to contract. I like owning property. I really like VOTING. I like that I could use contraception as I chose. I liked going to college, working, and being financially independent. I LOVE pants!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I second nightowl's comments.

I remember being perplexed by a boyfriend saying that I was too darn independent.

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dockside_gw

I remember a man telling me, back in about 1969, that the salary I was receiving was pretty good for a woman.

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SandyC.
I would hope we are all feminists men and women.
I don't know what Fox News guys and that obnoxious talk host Laura Ingram espouse, but we have come a long way baby. I guess feminist to them must be interrelated with liberal. Of course the alt right don't believe in equal rights for women as we saw all of those terrible memes of Hillary originate on Breitbart. We saw the Trump supporters with the vile ,misogynistic t- shirts at rallies. I often thought, do these people wear these in front of their kids?
To hear someone does not support feminism reminds me of those old fuddy-duddy conservatives like Anita Bryant and Phyllis Schafly. The holier than thou white women who never had to compete in the workforce or endure sexual abuse and discrimination.
I thank Susan B Anthony for her fight for the 19th amendment. I thank the women's movement and all their "whining" for equal rights in a marriage, for the right to initiate divorce, for equal pay for equal work , for the right to education, for the right to choose, and plan my family, and birth control, for maternity leave, for no discrimination in the work place, for the right to own property, for sexual abuse laws and the fight for prevention , especially if our young women. I am thankful to be able to wear pants. I remember in high school when we no longer had to only wear skirts.
Unfortunately not all counties embrace equal rights and women are still subjected to rape, prostitution, sex trafficking, female genitalia mutilation.
I am thankful for those who spoke out on sexual abuse, from powerful white men in the workplace, such as the female employees at Fox news, that settled a multi million law suit against one of the most powerful men in television, the women who were threatened with termination and retaliation. The women our president elect has verbally and physically assaulted.
I am thankful my daughter has more opportunities now than ever. I am grateful she had strong female role models, teachers, professors, mentors.
I am grateful my daughter, like myself and all our friends & family support women and children rights and will fight like h_ll if this authoritarian, misogynistic , racist president elect , and advisor, white supremacist Bannon threaten those in any way.
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SandyC.
"The so called feminists will never get it"
Whoooosh
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Dockside's comment reminds me of a similar situation -- a male colleague was irritated that I was earning almost as much as he was (different department and different position). To tell the truth, I was surprised that his position paid so little.

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Zeus

A female friend of mine is in her 50s and is an electrical engineer. One of her first jobs she learned a male with the same background and hired at the same time was paid more. In her opinion, she was actually much more qualified and talented. Nonetheless, she went to the small firm's president and asked for a raise to the same amount. The president (a male) said- wait for it .... He has a family to support. hahahahaha

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SandyC.
When I was a very young woman, many of my friends and I were newly married and starting our families. The head physician of our unit would comment on our boob sizes as we got further along in our pregnancy.
He would come up from behind and grab us.
It reminded me of Trump, a man in a position of authority preying on subordinates . A bully and a pervert.
Barbara Corcoran ,star on Shark Tank was sued by Trump in 1994 . Her firm brokered a deal to save one of his huge properties from bankruptcy. On the day he was to pay her her 4 million dollars, he turned around and sued her because of a news story she had given. She spent $500,000 defending herself and won. He is a bully and preys in the weak. Most people don't have the money for a lawsuit.
She says money always comes first for Donald.
She also said when she was in a meeting alone with her, he commented on the size of her boobs, and compared them to his pregnant wife Marla's.
She says as a leader she can't imagine anybody who would be less effective.
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wildchild2x2

Look at all the chatter Rose. Yet they are too fearful to even view your video. Staying in their safe space. LOL

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SandyC.
I watched it, it was silly. Not sure what it had to do with feminism and women's rights? It was stupid random clips. Is the "term" feminism, meant to show those " nasty" women, kind of like the " nasty" Hillary.
Well at least two women celebrities got out of Fox, they must be so happy to be out of that hateful, misogynistic culture.
Now they can enjoy a less sexist, less far right wing career, with fellow male feminist journalists.
Not sure where you get these things, Breitbart, Fox or just FB that sends nasty anti women propaganda? It was very effective , Trumps boys did a great job promoting anti women rhetoric. Poor KellyAnn she has sold her soul.....
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SandyC.
Yes " he has a family to support" and then there was the good old " are you planning on getting pregnant anytime soon?" when applying for a job. How about stewardesses who had to be single, had to weigh in each week?
I applied for a job, with British Air and they took my measurements and weight during the interview!
I highly recommend THE GOOD GIRLS REVOLT, on Amazon. It's terrific, group or women at Newsweek, who were called " researchers" who never got their own byline, even though they did just as much writing as the male writers. It's a true story, set in 1969.
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maifleur01

I heard someone being told that the new hire, son of one of the partners, had to be given the job that she had been in training for several years because he was looking for a girlfriend and needed the extra money to impress her. This was the firm back when firms could actually respond to verification of employment and how knowledgeable they were would respond either with a negative or comments that lead other companies to think the person was not doing a good job. I learned a lot at this company about how offices really worked.

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jodik_gw

Sorry... I don't do Utube, either. Is there any text that could be posted? Or any explanation? Or even an opinion or comment as accompaniment?

~~~

The word "feminism" is often misunderstood. It means: "the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes."

With that in mind, I remain a feminist, as does my husband... and he's very proud and happy to stand up for equal rights... and not just for women, but for all genders and differences.


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Annie Deighnaugh

I'm always amazed at how many people dis the very organizations that gave them the rights they enjoy today. I remember talking with someone at work who was rabidly anti-union, and I asked him if he liked his 40 hr work week, paid vacation, pension and healthcare coverage. If so, thank a union. Of course now, a lot of those benes have been rolled back, as has union membership.

I'm old enough to remember when women were not allowed to go to bars, so they passed a law saying to was ok for women to "sit" at bars, so a bunch of bars started removing the stools...no one said they could "stand" at bars. I remember when a woman couldn't get a credit card in her own name...it had to be in her husband's name. I remember when they finally made it illegal in NY for a man to strangle his wife. I remember at work where the professional woman was in a cubicle and the subordinate man was in the office. I remember a professional woman being asked by her boss why he should "give" her any more money when all she was going to do was go out and buy a new blouse. I remember having been married a couple of years, and since I hadn't gotten pregnant, the head of the department came over to me and remarked that I seemed to be serious about my career since I hadn't started a family. Today it is very different. None of that would have changed without feminism.

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wildchild2x2

Ann T

Of course I've raised a son and daughter. Do you have literacy issues?

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ojo_sigo

Nancy's story reminds me of the situation where I once worked briefly. All the men in the machine shop were on piece work and one by one over the months I was there they would come into the office to ask for more money and they all got the same answer "You are already the highest paid worker on the shop floor, now keep that under your hat."

To me 'feminism' in its political sense moves women away from vulnerable individuals to something like a union (that was missing where I worked) with bargaining power.

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momj47(7A)

Just visit a woman's shelter to see the effect of patriarchy on women, and children.

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jillinnj

It's the usual conservative mantra - shut up and stop complaining. To them standing up for rights of anyone is just "whining". I had no idea conservatives (or anyone really) felt that way until participating here. It's so strange to me.

Thank goodness the majority of people don't feel that way or we'd still be barefoot and pregnant.

I've told my story before of not making the same amount as a co-worker who was male and doing the same job as me on a different product. After asking for a bigger raise because I wasn't happy with mine, my boss (also a woman) found out this guy was making significantly more than me. It was a huge fight to get them to pay me the same amount. And the ironic part was the product I was managing was the largest money maker for the company, much more profitable than the product that guy was managing. Yet he was making significantly more than me. And we had to have a fight to even the playing field. Unbelievable.

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Ann

Nightowl, the good news is your electrical engineer friend doesn't even need to give her boss's comment a second thought. She made such a great career choice that she's in high demand (especially if she's good as she thinks she is - and I bet she is). She can easily say adios and will likely get the pay she wants elsewhere or even elsewhere in the same company. No whining would be necessary for her with her qualifications.

I think many of us that feel feminism is ridiculous have raised daughters - highly successful and capable daughters who haven't given feminism a sideways glance and never will. What a distracting, disruptive, out of date topic feminism is!


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Ann

Jill, liberals want to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Conservatives moved on long ago.

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ojo_sigo

Ann it is because of what brave and pioneering women did in the recent past that your daughters have the freedom they do.

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momj47(7A)

I think many of us that feel feminism is ridiculous have raised daughters -- highly successful and capable daughters who haven't given feminism a sideways glance and never will. What a distracting, disruptive, out of date topic feminism is!

What a naive comment!!!

SMH

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wildchild2x2

I just shared the Stepford wife comment Ann T made with my DH. He's trying to wipe the tears of laughter from his eyes so he can see. If you only knew.

Such sheltered people we have here. No wonder you need to march around in in kitty ears to feel self value for just a bit. Poor little girls.



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azmom

Ann,

If you indeed worked in a "Professional" capacity requires higher education and broad expertise, you would not make the comments you did.

As you should have already known even women in the most in demand/desirable professional fields in financial industry (On the Wall Street), Silicon Valley, Engineering, Healthcare, Law, ...etc. with best credentials and performances, their pays are ALWAYS less than their male counterparts.

Ask how I know it, ask these 4.2% women CEOs, ask your own daughter, your son and your husband if they are in these type of professional fields.

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ann_t

"What a naive comment!!!"

Mom it isn't just naive. It is ignorant.


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SandyC.
Naive does not begin to explain it. I really think O'Reilly and Hannity use the word feminist as a derogatory term. But then again there have been lots of sexual abuse claims on Fox. It is the culture there to silence women, have them dress up in short skirts, big hair and lots of make up. It is such a sexist culture, the women who get out are lucky. I can't stand to hear them, the men remind me of Trump, bullies who have all the answers. I also know lots of engineers. Their brains are wired differently. Many nurses are married to engineers. The yin and yang, I think. Can you imagine 2 engineers being married, yuck, the black and white, everything is right or wrong, would be a very bleak world to live in. No passion, no empathy, no forgiveness, no creativity, no joy!
Just like Wosniak and Jobs, the genius and the visionary.
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The video begins with the credit Manhood Academy.

Nice to know the bias from the beginning.

I couldn't watch more than a couple of minutes. What a load of cwap.

Edited to add: I didn't link to the site. Warning: Too many obscenities.

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SandyC.
Add to Ann's comment, and highly successful who would never be a taker and need government entitlements LOL. so sad, it's an alternate universe. Whooosh.
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momj47(7A)

Well, we know about Trump's attitudes towards women.

He's a sexual predator and sex-assaulter-in-chief.

I think we'll see a serious, and dangerous increase in attacks against women in the coming years.

Heaven forbid, one of the RWEx forum members is a victim of an attack................

I'm sure they'll be telling us that "boys will be boys".

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SandyC.
Ann, your comment in not naive, it is demeaning and ignorant. The most highly successful women in our country, if you think it equates to profession type, will be found in Silicon Valley. A place that is open minded, creative and non judgmental. The most " conservative" women you will find in the Bible Belt, poorest red states, that have been held back by GOP white " Christian" men for decades.
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momj47(7A)

The video begins with the credit ManhoodAcademy.com.

I never click on a link posted by a RWEx forum member. Video or not. It's too easy to get malware from these sites. Even YouTube.

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azmom

"Yet they are too fearful to even view your video. Staying in their safe space. LOL"

I am in STEM field, and have been using computer since '70s, indeed I am beyond "fearful"...as I would never click on links Rose provided, giving the stupidity reflected in her posts, I do not want to risk my computer to junk sites she visited.

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SandyC.
"Safe space" is white supremacist ( nationalist) verbiage. It has spread over to the propaganda sites and Hannity et al.
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SandyC.
They already told us they agree grabbing women in the pu__y is just locker room talk. They live in a bubble, have never experienced life. Have never volunteered at a church or homeless shelter. Have never seen children who suffer from poverty and malnutrition.
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wildchild2x2

WOW a STEM field. So impressive. I used to phreak with the Home Brewers in the 70s. DS is a well known IT security specialist. I'll take my knowledge over your academic knowledge any day. If you really knew what you think you know you would also be aware of the safe options that would allow you to view the video. Calling another forum member stupid. How telling. Look in the mirror.

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azmom

Hi Sandy,

Most of our family have engineering degrees even some of us later switched to other fields, in a way, our marriages are "two engineers married together". It is not bad at all. :-).

Good thing being an engineer is we would never have distort logic and convoluted thought process as displayed by the deporables.

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jillinnj

No whining would be necessary for her with her qualifications.

So speaking out to your boss that he is treating you unfairly is "whining"

We're supposed to just leave and find a different job, even if we like the job we have, because we women aren't supposed to speak up for ourselves to men.

Maybe in your world, but not in mine.

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jillinnj

I'll take my knowledge over your academic knowledge any day.

Conservative speak for demeaning those damn "liberal elites".

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azmom

"WOW a STEM field. So impressive."

Millions working in the STEM fields, unlike you, I don't think it is impressive. But at least my academic and working knowlege allow me to make decision on my own devices and equipments instead of depending on husband or son's expertise.

" I am fortunate to have had many real men in my life. More than most people get. I am also fortunate to have a masculine son and son in law."

We raise children as decent human beings, they don't need to use "masculinity or femininity" as their attractiveness.......So far I have never meet a fake man and woman in my life, your child raising philosophy is strange to say the least, just as using 'Stupid' to describe Rose's comment is an understatement.

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Ann

Azmom, I'm not sure what you consider a "Professional" capacity. My degree was in Computer Science and my first job out of college was at a subcontractor of Lockheed Martin. My task was validation and verification of Titan IV flight software. After that, I moved into other jobs in the same field and completed my career managing all the programmers within an IT department. Is that career considered professional in your opinion?

Along the way, I ran into situations where male peers made more than I did and other situations where I felt I was chosen for a job or given a promotion in part because of being a female. Like my daughter, I never gave a thought to feminism. What a waste of time and effort.

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azmom

"if one is too dumb to know how to safely view a video they probably should shut their pie hole about their computer expertise."

You have again and again demonstrated your limitation on the subject...feel free to be proud of yourself.

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Ann

Azmom, gosh, my father, uncle, son, and daughter all have degrees in engineering and every single one of them was (Dad is deceased) or is what you would consider a deplorable. I guess their logical thought processes are a bit different than yours.

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azmom

"I'm a woman and I equate feminism with whining".

Do you realize lots of "rights" you enjoy now is the results of feminists' "whining"?

"Along the way, I ran into situations where male peers made more than I did and other situations where I felt I was chosen for a job or given a promotion in part because of being a female".

You are anti- feminism.....I am confused by your above statements as you just gave shinning supporting examples that men and women are being treat differently at work place, you are supporting one of feminism's agenda trying to eliminate inequality at work place.

We are fighting for equality that women and men get equal pay, for same job based on their competency and performance instead of their gender, skin color and cultural background.

I don't know anything about your family, at least based on your comments, I am not so sure about your (engineering) logic.

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woodnymph2_gw

Ann----- your comment about your daughters never giving a thought to the positives of feminism is beyond naive. Don't you get that it was my generation (older than your daughters) who did all the heavy lifting in the workplace back in the 60's, and who made it possible for them to have the smooth career paths you claim they have today! It was my generation who fought for equal rights and equal pay that paved the way for the benefits today's younger women so enjoy. It was my generation who wanted the E.R.A. and who built the grass roots movement through consciousness raising groups. Surely, I am not alone in this, on HT.

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Ann

I think people are treated differently all the time. Sometimes one's sex, color, height, looks, age, and all sorts of different factors make one candidate more appealing than another to the hiring person. That's life. I think there are laws to try to prevent discrimination (and that's good) but, beyond that, it gets too nit picky as there is no way to really know what the hiring person was thinking. So, for the person choosing a career path, training, getting a job, and then furthering their career - don't dwell on that stuff and get on with your achievements. High achievers like that go far while others whine and watch with envy. There are personality traits that make some do better than others. Whining and dwelling on being held down is not one of those traits.

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Ann

Woody, that's wonderful and admirable but also old news. I am over 60 and I never felt held back in opportunities due to the type of progress you described (by those before me). Now, we're in 2017 and society has moved past that. Women that are still fighting that battle now are simply holding themselves down. Heck, my grandmother (born in the 1800s) traveled from her little town in Minnesota to serve as a WWI nurse in Jerusalem in her 20s. Even back then, she didn't let feminism hold her back. She loved her adventurous life and didn't feel anyone held her back.

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ojo_sigo

Threads that begin with a contentious link but no comment from the OP always take this route. In this case we are left to piece together what rose's thoughts on feminism's effect on men might be. Now that Nancy points out the source we can assume that that link contains not just views about this effect but is anti-feminism in total. And so it goes that now we are talking about feminism in general and not its effect on men.

I had a brief look at the link and I think it would be safe to say that the main thrust is that feminism has emasculated men. This view is very much of the times we live in where every prejudice that we thought we had overcome is crawling back out from whatever rock it was under. Making America great again apparently means we get to freely exercise all those prejudices again.

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practigal

The ignorance on display by some members here is simply unbelievable. Are you sure they're not all bots?

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azmom

wood,

Even I am not one generation behind you, I have also appreciated the heavy lifting your generation did for all of us, as well as enjoyed the benefits from it.

Thank you so much.

I still remember the encouragement one male manager gave to me around 20 years ago, he said it is so important for women like me to "blaze the trail" and to continue the good work.

Yes, I am still working on it, same as my daughter even she has so much better opportunities than the women of my generation.

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momj47(7A)

Are you sure they're not all bots?

Bots or trolls?

They spout the party line pretty consistently, either way.

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azmom

Ann, What is the definition of Feminism to you?

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practigal

Good question AZ mom. What is it Ann?

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jillinnj

Now, we're in 2017 and society has moved past that.

This statement shows you are completely clueless.

We have not "moved past that". Women are still not paid the same as men for the same job. Where have you been? Please turn off Fox and educate yourself.

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Ann

Time to find a current trail to blaze. The woman trail has already been successfully blazed. To continue wanting to rehash that trail is counterproductive. But, luckily, many women are more than happy to take all the great progress that was made and run with it. The rest of the women should take note as they might be left behind as their female peers sore past.

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jillinnj

Asking for equal pay and rights in the work place IS NOT WHINING.

OH MY GOD

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elvis

So speaking out to your boss that he is treating you unfairly is "whining"

Not necessarily "whining", but certainly unwise if you're doing it with a big fat chip on your narrow shoulder, makes no difference what gender you are and/or the "boss" (how quaint!) is.

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Ann

From Wikipedia, "Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment."

This definition is consistent with my own. We've got equal opportunities, Ladies.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Ann, so glad that you think all the work regarding equal rights for women is done which means you recognize the benefits that have been gained by such a movement. Can you at least make room for the possibility that all the work isn't done, at least not for some women...many women...who not only want to push equality further, but also make sure there isn't any backsliding along the way given the current political environment?

Still pending since 1972.

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Ann

EXACTLY Elvis. When I managed an IT department, the women and men that accomplished the work were well rewarded in salary. The women and men that whined about their pay were typically the ones that accomplished little and that I had little motivation to keep. The high achievers were a huge challenge to keep as they were in high demand. Word of their great achievements got around and I had to fight hard to keep them, spending a great deal of time with HR trying to convince them that salary increases were necessary or we'd lose a most valuable employee.

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practigal

That is the point Ann. You have equal opportunities NOW because feminists fought for them in the past. There are many who do not want women in the workplace and they are coming into power. You really miss the point in the definition the key words were "common goal"

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woodnymph2_gw

Thanks, practigal and az mom, for getting the points I was trying to make.

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practigal

Oh I see. In your view women who ask for equal pay are lacking in accomplishment and "whining" and are "feminists". Maybe you need to re-examine how you have pulled together those concepts because lazy and feminist are not synonymous. You need to go back and read your history.

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Ann

I remember one particular situation where I was hiring a programmer. I hired a new graduate (a female) with an impressive GPA and an impressive interview impression. Well, she lasted a week before she came into my office to tell me how sorry she was but she had received a more lucrative offer from another company. No one was holding this woman down. I couldn't even keep her with a very nice starting salary.

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ojo_sigo

I wonder if Martin Luther King thought 50 years ago "Well now that Civil Rights have been accomplished what to do next?"

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Ann

Not all women (or men) who ask for pay raises are whining. But, most women (and men) who have clearly demonstrated their value to the company, don't need to ask. Great employees are hard to find and hard to keep, when other companies are trying to recruit them. A great employee is typically someone whose boss is fighting hard to get pay raises for them.

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SandyC.
"March around in kitty ears" white supremacist language, white nationalist verbiage right off Breitbart.
It is sad that middle America, who could not stand the fact a black man won the presidency, that they were h_ll bent on making sure a woman, who had a private email server was not going to win next. They chose a populist leader to speak to their bigotry and racism, who ran a campaign of misogyny and xenophobia. It did not matter to those who voted for Trump. Facts didn't matter. Everyone knew who Trump was for decades, if they didn't they must have been living under a rock. It is sad to me, that our daughters are seeing how a bigot, a liar, a racist and an authoritarian madman, who is pro Russia, is a better choice than a woman who had a private email server.
To think women, would sink so low, to accept this type of behavior from a man to be the leader of the free world is hypocrisy at it's highest. The boys will be boys, locker room talk explains it all. They have been brainwashed to think demeaning others, assaulting women is okay, as long as the end justifies the means. The end being, lowering taxes for us in the top 1%, cutting corporate taxes and deregulating banks and the lending institutions. Privatizing schools and medical care and bailing out businesses to stay in the US with huge tax incentives.
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Ann

I think you might be completely surprised at how many Trump voters had no problem whatsoever with a black man as president or a woman as a future president. That's another outdated topic. Obviously, the left will continue to try to pin that on the right, but I think that accusation will run out of steam too.

In reality, I think the right was sick and tired of Americans being held down by our leaders and wants the government chains cut so America really can be great again. The great news is, many Americans want to achieve and take care of their families. They simply don't want their hands tied anymore, so they are prevented from moving forward.

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SandyC.

There was a huge movement lead by that Phyllis Shafly. She denounced " feminism". A true hypocrite. I always would see her as looking down to working class women, women of color, single moms struggling in the workplace. It is evident here, as well. People who consider themselves above it all. Thank god, that is not the world I come from. The bigots, the racists, the ones who think everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Azmom, forgive me, if you thought, I was referring to you in any way. I to know a lot of engineers, but they have evolved are feminists and support women's rights. Not like the non empathetic, cold hearted we hear from on HT. Those who have no world outside of their own, with their perfect children an perfect lives.
Travel and experience living in foreign countries has opened my kids eyes to the world around them. They become huge proponents of equal rights, just like their parents.
I could care less what my kids did for a living, as long as they are caring, kind and empathetic. It has taken them a long way in this world, to find careers and partners they love.
I am proud of who they are.

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wildchild2x2

WTH do kitty ears have to do with white supremacists? Black and white girls will be marching wearing the pink kitty ears. All skin tones will wear kitty ears. Along with some emasculated men. Good grief are you that insane?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Emasculated men?

How does one make that determination?

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SandyC.
The women at Fox News with all of their fame and power, were powerless when they spoke up to HR. When powerful men such as Aires, women are mistreated and either forced to shut up or quit. To fight back for most women is impossible. They can't possibly fight someone like Trump.
It took a class action suit at Newsweek, the first of its kind in 1970, to fight the male dominated establishment of publishing. They are heroes, those women,risked everything. Many were divorced, single mothers, who risked being fired on the spot if they were found out. There were no HR departments to complain to. You either sucked it up or risked being fired. Do we have that short memories, that we don't remember the sixties?
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maifleur01

What Ann and others like her do not see is that this country is reversing itself and sadly people are once again thinking that just because body parts are visually different it makes some more qualified than others.

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woodnymph2_gw

I have all-too vivid memories of being a woman in the workplace in the 60's, as see my post above.

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jillinnj

Not necessarily "whining", but certainly unwise if you're doing it with a big fat chip on your narrow shoulder, makes no difference what gender you are and/or the "boss" (how quaint!) is.

Huh? Who said anyone did it with a "big fat chip" on their shoulders?

You are one of the 'keep your mouth shut and hope things work out' conservatives, so not at all surprising this comment comes from you.

I spoke out for my equal rights with facts and supporting evidence. As did my boss, also a woman. And I got the raise I deserved, and I was happy. Happy enough to still be at the same company. And based on my reviews and compensation they are still happy to have me.

But go on pretending that women speaking out for their rights are just "whining".

Some are just so clueless, it's hard to fathom.

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Kathy

In reality, I think the right was sick and tired of Americans being held down by our leaders and wants the government chains cut so America really can be great again. The great news is, many Americans want to achieve and take care of their families. They simply don't want their hands tied anymore, so they are prevented from moving forward.


I am wondering what you consider are chains holding people back?

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wildchild2x2

Just look for the men wearing pink pussy ears, Nancy.

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SandyC.
Getting rid of banking regulations, EPA standards, consumer protections, lol. You know the things that will help Trump's band of billionaires get richer. Oh and decreased taxes for the 1% and Huuuge tax cuts for the top 0,1%.Yes the middle class are really going to prosper. Did you watch SNL " Jobs, I'm bringing back jobs!!!"
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jodik_gw

"Jill, liberals want to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Conservatives moved on long ago."

We were right all along... it's an alternate reality.

But seriously... that statement combined with others tells me, through context and reading comprehension, that conservatives may have moved on, but it's been in the opposite direction... given the anti-female/anti-equality based legislation popping up at state levels, and the fact that patriarchy and misogyny, not to mention evangelical fundamentalists with inequality on the brain, are all part and parcel of the GOP, which would be that conservative side.

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Kathy

Ann,

Lockheed is a top federal contractor and had to abide by many anti discrimination laws. That is a whole different ballgame than working for a non union factory or other workplaces. It is like comparing apples and oranges..

If companies with federal contracts or subcontracts are found to be noncompliant in regard to equal employment and affirmative action, they can face mandatory changes in their employment policies as well as bad publicity. In the worst-case scenario, they may even be barred from working with the government. The laws governing the affirmative action programs for contractors are lengthy and complicated, so companies need to spend significant time to ensure compliance and to avoid trouble.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Kathy, good point about federal contractors being held to a higher standard.

Thank you, nanny state! Those regulations helped me as a woman when I was working for a company that did business with FHA.

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

it's an alternate reality

The posting of complete nonsense by certain mindsets is routine here.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ojo, bug spray and moi?

Just a flick of your index finger would send me reeling. No need to pollute the environment with insecticides.

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Kathy

maifleur01

What Ann and others like her do not see is that this country is reversing itself and sadly people are once again thinking that just because body parts are visually different it makes some more qualified than others

Either Ann wont admit or doesn't realize is working for a government contractor means you have all the protections the law can provide. It is not a fair comparison. Her experience is not typical. It is true entitlement. The pay, the benefits, and pensions are basically supplied by the taxpayers through the government. The contractors are paid huge exorbitant sums to produce and employ.

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maifleur01

Kathy I worked for the federal government. There are many protections in the various laws that are so easily worked around as to be nonexistent. It depends on the part of the agency that you are with on how the protections are interpreted.

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SandyC.
Lockheed and the aerospace industry, truly is an alternate universe. I find it ironic those that speak of these industries prospered under Reagan in the cold was era. Anybody remember the pricing scandals of government contractors? Lots of my friends worked for these huge, bloated government contractors, then with the end of the Cold War saw huge layoffs. My SIL just got out of Lockheed after 10 years. He hated it. As a manager, he was required to work mandatory overtime sometimes 2 weeks with no time off, no overtime pay. He got comp time, but if he took it the work just piled up. I was surprised how low his salary was, with such a high level position. These companies have a lot of ex military, finishing out their careers, waiting for a nice retirement. There is a segment of the work force who are happy with the status quo, who don t make waves. My SILs parents are those. Die hard republicans, who have had the same jobs their entire life, hate their jobs, but look forward to retirement, so stick it out. They don't charge anything, never use credit cards, own their home blah, bla, blah.
Then their are those like my husband, could not stand working for anyone, started his own company and is his own boss. Sometimes having the courage to risk change, the vision of a better life and happiness is difficult for people. It is easy to settle and stay in a stifling job, if there is no hope or opportunity.
My SIL told his parents, when he quit his secure job, he wanted to be more like my husband who found the key to happiness. Oh God, they just about stroked out, they had paid for a great college education and he quit his great job! LOL.
Needless to say, he has thrived, found a great satisfying, position, has been able to buy a home and now we're waiting for grandkids........
Women, are the same. Some are happy with the status quo, will stay in,stifling, discriminatory positions. We've been taught not to make waves. But I thank god, the women before us, did not accept the status quo.
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Annie Deighnaugh

In reality, I think the right was sick and tired of Americans being held down by our leaders and wants the government chains cut so America really can be great again.

I wonder how all those trump voters who feel that way will feel once they realize the presidency has been turned over to the kremlin and our constitutional guarantees are eroded one by one, and the chains of tyranny cut tighter into their flesh.

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Kathy

I still don't know what chains the Reps think held back workers ....

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purrmichigan(5)

The effect feminists have had on me is that I can't stand feminists.

Every one is unique. Groupthink destroys the individual.

One generalization after another. You "can't stand" a whole bunch of people. How interesting must that be when you're out in the heterogeneous world.


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Ann

Kathy, I never worked for Lockheed but for a subcontractor of Lockheed. Following that first job after college graduation, I worked for several different employers that had nothing to do with government contracts. I agree that Lockheed is very diligent about abiding by anti discrimination laws. I think anti discrimination laws are important and valuable. But, I do think they don't protect all and really can't protect all. For example, studies show that unattractive people and short men don't get job offers nearly as often as attractive people or tall men. I really don't think we should have a law about that and there would be no way to enforce an attractiveness law. So, at some point, there is only so much anti-discrimination laws can do. I think the best way to pursue success is to look to oneself by making careful education and career choices (I can't emphasize enough how important this step is IMO), presenting oneself well in resumes and interviews, conducting oneself professionally in the workplace, working hard, mingling with the positive people in the company, having a positive outlook, appreciating the opportunity to work for the company, and keeping complaints as few and far between as possible. I think many people that choose and behave like this almost can't believe how much success lands at their feet.

I remember a discussion on Houzz about feminism before. Many women were furious with me because my opinion was that all people (men or women) usually get paid what they deserve. I gave one personal example where I worked in a job with the same title as a male peer. I knew his salary because as an employee having all computer access to all company systems, I was able to look it up. He was paid more than me. At the time, I was a little annoyed. But, a short time later and ever since, I took a good hard look at my company contribution compared to his and if I'm completely honest, his contribution was greater. So, not only do I think it's important to conduct oneself well in the workplace, but also to be honest about one's own value to the company.

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

A well off middle aged woman I worked for told me she didn't go for any of the feminism stuff because she liked the status quo (being provided for by a man and so on). Her family had two businesses on the same multi-acre property where she lived. A manufacturing facility that her husband operated full time and a part time social club that the whole family helped with.

Including her, actually.

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purrmichigan(5)

Americans being held down by our leaders and wants the government chains cut so America really can be great again.

It's a metaphor without meaning. It's just easy to remember and repeat. Cold logic is more difficult and complex. Critical thinking and empathy seem to be impossible for the FRWingers.

There is nothing perfect in society. Nothing that can't be improved. People who believe America is post-racial bias, post-female bias are living in bubbles and comfortable there because of their lack of interest in people unlike themselves.



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maifleur01

Ann was his contribution different because he was allowed to make it different. The reason I asked was during the early office computer days companies allowed men and a few selected women to do more things to achieve that ability to contribute. Simple things like allowing men to train on things outside of working hours but still in the office. Allowing women to be in the work setting only when a man was there. I knew I was not going to get a promotion when I found out that the men and one woman all having the same job were allowed to come in on the weekend and stay late or come back in to learn the computer system.

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

People at the top have been able to rouse the rabble for their own purposes and theirs only since forever. Acceptance by the masses is why monarchs have tended historically to eventually start portraying themselves as gods. "We deserve our high positions (and your obedience) because we aren't just powerful humans, we are deities!"

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Ann

No, his work ethic and contribution was just better and more than mine. I wasn't a bad employee, but he was a better one. If I would have been the boss of the two of us, I would have paid him more too.

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Zeus

Ann - I don't understand your point. Are you attempting to extrapolate your experience?

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ann_t

I don't think anyone would argue that some employees are worth more
than others. They are paid more because as you said, they are better at
their jobs and contribute more. All of that is true.

But what isn't true, is that they should be paid more because they are male.

Often
women have the same experience and qualifications, and are the better
employee and they get paid less than the male doing the same job but not
as well.
Let me see you try and defend that.

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SandyC.
Personal anecdotes are used a lot on HT. Just because a person has an experience it is not always reality. Of course some companies are better than others. What is being discussed is feminism and how strong women, have lead the way for those now and going on in the world. Not only in the work place but in every aspect of life.
We need to continue to fight for people's rights, now more than ever. A strong republic, consists of not only free and democratic elections, but personal liberty.We will see Trump try to destroy these, throughout his term. Women's rights will be threatened, as will the first amendment. Democracy is a very precious thing, that is being threatened. We should all fight for our liberties, it is what makes us strong. Once we turn inward, to and appease a populist, there are many outside influences waiting to weaken our position in the world.
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SandyC.
"So America can really be great again" it is great. Many economists and foreign experts discussed Trumps threat of tariffs and trade deals. Of course the middle and lower class suffer tariffs and the increase of goods. 95% of our trade is global, farmers would be hurt the most. The very people that voted for Trump will be the ones hurt the most.
The wealthy will not notice a difference in the price of goods and will have greater incomes with lower federal taxes.
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ojo_sigo

This is an ancient question that thinkers from Jethro Tull - Marx - to Barack Obama have tried to answer, "if you have a successful business you didn't build that alone" he said to much opposition.

Equality does not mean that we should all get the same from the success of a business yet a CEO that gleans 400 times as much as a worker is just plain wrong.

This segues into the minimum wage and welfare thing - that says some people have more value than others and it matters not how this is divvied up because the usual suspects are the losers.

Elsewhere we have seen notice that equality for women may be a different question if this is a black woman or an immigrant to God forbid a black Muslim woman immigrant how is it possible to get your head around that?

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Pidge

Institutionalized misogyny has been hard-wired into Ann's brain. Too bad she has passed that social construct to her daughters. Maybe we need some kind of vaccine.

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SandyC.
My niece is a top exec at Google, is one of the top 100 employees pre IPO. She has a great job, travels the world, has lived all over our country and the world. It is extremely difficult for a woman in her position to have it all. Men in her position can have a family, and still be able to travel the world for work. I see my niece as a very successful business person, but has been unable to find happiness personally.She has dated some wonderful guys, but her work comes first. I still think there is a double standard for those at the top. It is very difficult to have it all, and 'Lean In' as Sheryl Sandburg says. There is a sad irony, she leaned in, has a great job and family and her husband suddenly died. So sad.
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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

Since she was married before there is an implication that she will be able to make that happen again.

If she wants it.

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ojo_sigo

You do realise that all this "my daughter is successful and get this ....she is woman" stuff is counter productive?

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jodik_gw

Before I ever thought about marriage or wanting a guy in my life, I made it on my own. Having a partner to share life with is a bonus... not a necessity.

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SandyC.
It is an excuse for everything. Unable to look outside and show understanding and empathy. The same people who want to remove affordable health insurance for 20,000,000. The Fox rhetoric has been very strong for many years. Too bad people did not open their minds and hearts and read what was happening. They believed Trump, who has no idea, no intellectual capacity to see the difficulty of many of his plans to "make America Great Again" lol.
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SandyC.
I know Jodik, that was my nieces plan, but life seems to move along with work, travel, fun and your friends are marrying and having kids. She is professionally successful, but her mom tells me it has been difficult for her. She is in charge of a huge team, and can't date from work, and many are very young. The tech business also suffers ageism. Men are threatened, she has a great deal of wealth, that they will never have. It takes a very secure, strong guy, to feel like an equal.Know any single guys, she is cute, bright and would love to meet somebody? Lol.
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purrmichigan(5)

Wonder what era and how far backwards the FRW thinks is 'great again'. Be careful what you wish for.

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Zeus

Ha ha. Sandy -how does messaging work on a cell phone?

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elvis

Ann posted: "I gave one personal example where I worked in a job with the same title as a male peer. I knew his salary because as an employee having all computer access to all company systems, I was able to look it up. He was paid more than me. At the time, I was a little annoyed. But, a short time later and ever since, I took a good hard look at my company contribution compared to his and if I'm completely honest, his contribution was greater. So, not only do I think it's important to conduct oneself well in the workplace, but also to be honest about one's own value to the company."

Parallel situation here. I immediately thought "unfair: just because he's got a penis". Hell, that's easy. But-- after (it took a while actually) brutal self-examination, I know it's because I was and still am simply unwilling to make the sacrifices he made, and I was certainly in a position to do so. Shrug. So much for personal anecdotes, carry on.

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Pidge

ojo writes: You do realise that all this "my daughter is successful and get this ....she is woman" stuff is counter productive?

You are right, ojo. The phrase falls right into the instituionalized misogyny that guides people like Ann's mindset. It's like saying, "He's a great baseball player. And he's black!" Or "He's a great nurse. And he's a guy!"

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ann_t

"Effects Of Feminisim On MEN"

Real men support feminism. Only a weak man would have a problem.

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Kathy

We have been hard wired as an androcentric country/world and it ties right in with Trump's slogan of MAGA.

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Kathy

Since Ivanka and Melania are having a special make up room built in the Whitehouse with special lighting I suppose the D will use it for his spray tan too if he is a "real" man

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elvis

Since Ivanka and Melania are having a special make up room built in the Whitehouse with special lighting

What a great idea, want one.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

It's mind boggling that such an inane thread has this many replies. Or should I say insane?

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Kathy

I bet it's a lot more than the 15,000 they complained Michele spent...

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purrmichigan(5)

Agree.

I'm not going to get defensive and argue for women's equality. It's such a no brainer. I think if you have a problem with 'feminism' whatever definition it currently has, then you're not changing with the times and not evolving. Arguing about equal pay is just silly and a waste of time.

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ann_t

I guess Michelle was a natural beauty who didn't need a special room just to put on makeup.

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Rose

Yet again, here we have the Left women's/body shaming---go figure.

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Kathy

Body shaming Trump? How many has he shamed?

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Rose

Kathy

Since
Ivanka and Melania are having a special make up room built in the
Whitehouse with special lighting I suppose the D will use it for his
spray tan too if he is a "real" man

_______________________________________________________________

MEEEEEE---OW


It's a design, not a build.


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ann_t

And here we go again repugs not caring when republicans spend frivolously.

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purrmichigan(5)

I wouldn't think it's built yet. He isn't president yet. They both use copious amounts of make-up and that's an aesthetic comment, not sexist. Melania's squint looks weird and Ivanka looks unnatural.

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Rose

More females shaming other females for the way they look--it's wrong and you know it. P.S. It's not a building.

_____________________________________________________

puremichigan60(5)

I
wouldn't think it's built yet. He isn't president yet. They both use
copious amounts of make-up and that's an aesthetic comment, not sexist.
Melania's squint looks weird and Ivanka looks unnatural.

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Rose

So, Melania Trump will design a combination wardrobe/makeup/hair styling space---the audacity. What First Family hasn't left their mark on the White House? You're really grasping here. And IT'S PAINFULLY AND PATHETICALLY OBVIOUS. Readers, take notice!

_____________________________________________________

Kathy

The Trump's will definitely leave their mark on the WH....

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purrmichigan(5)

Not grasping. The Trumps show themselves as all about the exterior. Hence, tt's love of gaudy gilt, Melania's posing like a model for family pics.

Among the first changes they will make it a make-up room? What're the "optics" on that? Not very good.

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maifleur01

I may not be correct but I believe that when one President leaves changes have already begun to the Presidential living quarters so that that the new President can move in immediately following their inauguration. Some are paid for by the government up to a certain amount the rest are billed to the incoming President.

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purrmichigan(5)

Seems to be very quick turnover.

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ann_t

You don't really expect that Trump will pay for anything do you? He has a habit of sticking to those that he owes. I suspect he will do the same to the American taxpayer.

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maifleur01

The women's magazines used have stories about this every time the President changed. Most years the plans were drawn up shortly after the election and submitted to the various agencies and people involved. Then the changes were started. This year with the electoral college vote being in doubt the changes were not started as early as they normally would. I have not seen Ladies Home Journal for years and do not know if it is still published but my Mom always insisted I look at the after pictures.

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elvis

I suspect he will do the same to the American taxpayer.

Are you an American taxpayer, annt? I hope so, you can help. Oh wait...

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Kathy

I just think it is interesting that that is a priority. A lot of FLOTUS have been criticized. Which one ordered all the new dishes costing so much money? This Presidency will be lavish and a lot of attention put on the optics. For the ones who are into the fluff I am sure it will be entertaining.

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maifleur01

I only posted as it was and should be. Elvis some may remember special donations to the White House to purchase new china as the old was just in terrible condition. The taxpayers may be asked to do the same for the living quarters.

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maifleur01

I was typing as Kathy posted so at least one person remembers the china. No memory of who it was.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I want to say Nancy Reagan, but I'm not sure.

Edited to add: It was Nancy Reagan with over four thousand pieces costing over $220,000 but not purchased with taxpayer funds.

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purrmichigan(5)

Why would anyone be interested in "helping"? :))

I don't think I've seen you, elvis, make note of cait1's living in another hemisphere and having zero positive to say. Sorry if that's not correct and you have called her/him on being extremely negative while not being a citizen of the U.S.

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Ann

I remember seeing a 60 Minutes (maybe???) special on inauguration day at the White House and it's remarkable what the staff and workers get done in a few hours time. They keep things as normal as possible for the outgoing president and nearly transform the place in a few hour's time as per the new president and first lady's requests. It was remarkably efficient and organized - truly amazing.

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purrmichigan(5)

The big refurnishing happened with Kennedy. I believe the reno happened under Eisenhower who was not able to live in the WH during that time.

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jodik_gw

"Real men support feminism. Only a weak man would have a problem."

You got that right, ann_t!

If my old man were in any way anti-feminist, he wouldn't be my old man!

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Rose

ann_t has exposed her personal information in her profile.

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Rose

jodik_gw

"Real men support feminism. Only a weak man would have a problem."

You got that right, ann_t!

If my old man were in any way anti-feminist, he wouldn't be my old man!

____________________________________

That would make you his 'old lady'.

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elvis

PM., Cait is an American citizen. j47 likes to call Cait an "ex-patriot", and no amount of pointing out that no such word exists will convince her otherwise. At any rate, if you ever noticed, that's what that's all about. Must be a "US-citizen-who-lives-in-another-country-thing". We think the word j47 is searching for is "expatriate".

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wildchild2x2

Either Annie Deighnaugh isn't from the US or she's older than dirt. She stated women weren't allowed in bars during her lifetime. That happened in Ireland/UK , not here in America.

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haydayhayday

More posts missing in this thread, too?

Practigal, isn't this the thread you made a comment about Roseberry and lies?

Now, I don't even see ANY posts by Roseberry.

Elvis, didn't you make some comments about that post of Practigal's?

Am I totally confused?

Hay

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ann_t

"Of course Ann T isn't from the US. She stated women weren't allowed in bars during her lifetime."

Really? Please show me where I said that. I think you must have confused me with someone else.

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purrmichigan(5)

Oh good grief. Can't you look at a word and it's context and assume that's what the writer meant? That's Reading Comprehension 101.

People who don't live here or even close to the U.S. and who want to get rid of every social, environmental policy and law w/o ever being constructive, are being silly. People who live close to the U.S. and probably travel here and are selective in their criticisms are much different.

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haydayhayday


Annie Deighnaugh:

"I'm old enough to remember when women were not allowed to go to bars, so they passed a law saying to was ok for women to "sit" at bars, so a bunch of bars started removing the stools...no one said they could "stand" at bars."

Hay

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haydayhayday

Mom, a while back, in another thread:

"She's an American, just an ex-patriot.

Do you know what that is? Maybe not.

And ex-patriot is a person who lives outside their native country."

Hay

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wildchild2x2

Thanks Hay. Lot's of Anns here and two are very similar in their posts. I went back and fixed it.


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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Interesting thread. I have a couple of questions: Who is Phyllis Shapely? And: Documentation on women still being paid less than men?

When I was in the work force 1974 - 2000 I was always paid the exact same as the men.

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SandyC.
Whooosh
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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

What, can't own up to your mistake in a name? Big of you. SandyC 10 hours ago.

Also the question about women's pay as compared to men's is also a legitimate question. Ever hear of the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay act of 2009? It was signed into law in Obama's first month in office. So all these supposed people who are paying all these women less than men are doing so illegally. Fancy that, I hope you turn them in; when you do, you should also turn in the Clintons as they paid women less, too. The truth hurts, I know.....

Edited to add Hillary paid women $.72 per hour less than men when she was a senator. I research before I post something which some people never seem to do.

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wildchild2x2

I believe a lot of causes for things that have already been significantly addressed and are almost non issues today have been appropriated by the left who missed the boat the first time around. They have to reinvent racism and sexism and come up with new things to be offended by for a reason to garner attention for themselves.They want to feel important so they join these left wing manufactured causes.

If you asked people what their cause was at a lot of these things a high percentage wouldn't be able to give you a concrete answer. It's always some generic thing like fill in the blank rights. The Women's March just keeps repeating the mantra that it is for "solidarity". Many won't admit it's just an anti Trump protest. Solidarity is the new buzzword for "I don't really have an answer".

I was invited to a local Women's March in my town. I quote, "Join us it will be fun".

My reply was no thanks. Fun is doing the things I love. Protest in my day was not fun. It meant you were putting your ass on the line to get arrested, beat down etc.

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Interesting that everyone here is whining about equal rights and do not check and see if the things they complain about are even true. Just a bunch of crybabies who want to whine about something. I was employed at a company that was 99% men; I helped them and they helped me.

Whoosh, really adult response there. Is that all you have?

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Watchmelol:

I believe you are right. All these poor misguided souls and so confused that Hillary lost that they don't quite know how to act. Heck, hilly was guaranteed to have it in the bag. This carp on these threads is so similar to all those poor little snowflakes shedding real tears at her "Victory Celebration". Meanwhile she is so drunk on her rear end she had to send out Podesta to send then home.

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SandyC.
Snowflakes is white supremacist verbiage, you have shown who you are on previous threads......
SOB
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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Oh, my gosh, that is really lame. I would be ashamed if I posted something that bad.

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wildchild2x2

Gardenerlorisc - Have you ever seen this series of videos? They are a bit old but it could easily be believed that the material came straight out of this site.


How Liberals Argue

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purrmichigan(5)

You two reinforce each other but it won't make you realistic and logical. Or worth anymore than a line or two.

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azmom

Here is an article from about Gender Pay Gap as of Fall 2016.

By The American Association of University Women (AAUW). It is the nation’s leading voice promoting equity and education for women and girls. Since our founding in 1881, AAUW members have examined and taken positions on the fundamental issues of the day — educational, social, economic, and political.

The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap (Fall 2016)

You’ve probably heard that men are paid more than women are paid over their lifetimes. But what does that mean? Are women paid less because they choose lower-paying jobs? Is it because more women work part time than men do? Or is it because women have more caregiving responsibilities? And what, exactly, does gender bias have to do with paychecks?

AAUW’s The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap succinctly addresses these issues by going beyond the widely reported 80 percent statistic. The report explains the pay gap in the United States; how it affects women of all ages, races, and education levels; and what you can do to close it. For 2016, the fifth anniversary of The Simple Truth, we’ve updated the report with information on disability status, sexual orientation, and gender identity.

........

The Big Number: 80 Percent

Did you know that in 2015, women working full time in the United States typically were paid just 80 percent of what men were paid, a gap of 20 percent? While the number has gone up one percentage point from 2014, the change isn’t statistically significant — because the increase is so small, mere tenths of a percent, it doesn’t amount to perceptible change. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the earnings ratio hasn’t had significant annual change since 2007. The gap has narrowed since the 1970s, due largely to women’s progress in education and workforce participation and to men’s wages rising at a slower rate. Still, the pay gap does not appear likely to go away on its own. At the rate of change between 1960 and 2015, women are expected to reach pay equity with men in 2059. But even that slow progress has stalled in recent years. If change continues at the slower rate seen since 2001, women will not reach pay equity with men until 2152.

Location, Location, Location: Pay Gap by State

Not only is there a national pay gap statistic, but the pay gap can also be calculated for each state. In 2015 the pay gap was smallest in New York, where women working full time year-round were paid 89 percent of what men were paid. The largest gap was in Wyoming, where women were paid 64 percent of what men were paid.

The Pay Gap Is Worse for Women of Color

The pay gap affects women from all backgrounds, at all ages, and of all levels of educational achievement, although earnings and the gap vary depending on a woman’s individual situation.

Among full-time workers in 2015, Hispanic and Latina, African American, American Indian, and Native Hawaiian and other native women had lower median annual earnings compared with non-Hispanic white and Asian American women. But within racial/ethnic groups, African American, Hispanic, American Indian, and Native Hawaiian women experienced a smaller gender pay gap compared with men in the same group than did non-Hispanic white and Asian American women (Figure 3).

A Closer Look at the Numbers by Race

Using a single benchmark provides a more informative picture. Because non-Hispanic white men are the largest demographic group in the labor force, they are often used for that purpose. AAUW uses two different data sources for earnings ratios by race/ethnicity. For African American, Asian American, and Latina and Hispanic women, we follow the Current Population Survey (CPS). Because the CPS lacks sufficient sample size for smaller demographic groups, we follow the American Community Survey (ACS) for Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander, American Indian, and Alaska Native women.

Compared with salary information for white male workers, Asian American women’s salaries show the smallest gender pay gap, at 85 percent of white men’s earnings. The gap was largest for Hispanic and Latina women, who were paid only 54 percent of what white men were paid in 2015 (below).

Age Is More than Just a Number

Earnings for both female and male full-time workers tend to increase with age, with a plateau after 45 and a drop after age 65. The gender pay gap also grows with age, and differences among older workers are considerably larger than gaps among younger workers. Women typically earn about 90 percent of what men are paid until they hit 35. After that median earnings for women are typically 76–81 percent of what men are paid.

Education Is Not an Effective Pay Gap Solution

As a rule, earnings increase as years of education increase for both men and women. However, while more education is a useful tool for increasing earnings, it is not effective against the gender pay gap. At every level of academic achievement, women’s median earnings are less than men’s median earnings, and in some cases, the gender pay gap is larger at higher levels of education.

Education improves earnings for women of all races and ethnicities, but earnings are affected by race and ethnicity as well as gender. White women are paid more than African American and Hispanic women at all education levels.

Student Debt, Race, and the Pay Gap

The gender pay gap persists across educational levels and is worse for African American and Hispanic women, even among college graduates. As a result, women who complete college degree are less able to pay off their student loans promptly, leaving them paying more and for a longer time than men.

Despite the gains women have made in the workforce, the pay gap persists. Individuals in the workforce, community, and government have the ability to help chip away at the pay gap.

Here are changes that can help close the wage gap.

For companies

While some CEOs have been vocal in their commitment to paying workers fairly, American women can’t wait for trickle-down change. AAUW urges companies to conduct salary audits to proactively monitor and address gender-based pay differences. It’s just good business.

For individuals

Women can learn strategies to better negotiate for equal pay. AAUW’s salary negotiation workshops help empower women to advocate for themselves when it comes to salary, benefits, and promotions. In Boston or Washington, D.C.? Read more about the free workshops in your area, and stay tuned for more cities to come!

For policy makers

The Paycheck Fairness Act would improve the scope of the Equal Pay Act, which hasn’t been updated since 1963, with stronger incentives for employers to follow the law, enhance federal enforcement efforts, and prohibit retaliation against workers asking about wage practices. Tell the Congress to take action for equal pay.

Learn more about what you can do to fight the pay gap by reading The Simple Truth and taking action at fightforfairpay.org.

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wildchild2x2

1234 what are we marching for?


We Don't Know

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azmom

" Either Ann wont admit or doesn't realize is working for a government contractor means you have all the protections the law can provide. It is not a fair comparison."

The answer is probably Ann was oblivious during her working years. We can also see Ann tends to use examples suitable for opposite position to support her own arguments, it resulted erroneous, confusion conclusion.

Even in government and defense contractor companies, the current law and cultural at work place DO NOT guarantee/protect true equality between both genders. It is an undeniable fact when everything is equal, men always get better assignments, better training, better advance opportunities and better positions.

"When I was in the work force 1974 - 2000 I was always paid the exact same as the men."

We don't know what type of work you did, or if we could believe your claim. According to the chart in the above report I cited, as of 2016 women in Iowa get 77% of men's pay. I believe this stat as it is the same as what I heard from my family and friends in Iowa during the last 15 years; they all work in white collar jobs require graduate school degrees.

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purrmichigan(5)

Ann----- your comment about your daughters never giving a thought to the positives of feminism is beyond naive. Don't you get that it was my generation (older than your daughters) who did all the heavy lifting in the workplace back in the 60's, and who made it possible for them to have the smooth career paths you claim they have today!

You got a non-answer imo to a very constructive argument.

I've just come to understand that the well learned words - from Judge J., Hannity et al, - "I'm past that" have the same meaning as: I lack the basic knowledge of history or interest in it to comprehend that brave women pushed barriers and proved themselves with their strength and intelligence. I see this entitled attitude in the Millennial Generation - in fact they're known for it. With age you should have gotten over yourself.

People who dismiss the past as irrelevant to their own lives are incredibly short sighted and in fact, just plain wrong. The egotism is tiresome.

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haydayhayday

Sandy:


"I also know lots of engineers. Their brains are wired differently. Many nurses are married to engineers."


From all appearances, men and women are different.


Certainly physically.


Why would you not also think that, in a general sort of way, the average man's brain might be "wired differently" than the average woman's brain.


You're fond of telling us how rich you are. You did that on a nurse's salary? I think you said that was your career.



Hay

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haydayhayday

Every time I see one of these threads.... where women aren't being paid as much as men for the same work....I'm always wondering why some enterprising women don't get together and start a company and "exploit" this difference.

Hay

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jodik_gw

"That would make you his 'old lady'."

And?

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momj47(7A)

Every time I see one of these threads.... where women aren't being paid as much as men for the same work....I'm always wondering why some enterprising women don't get together and start a company and "exploit" this difference.

I have doubt there are hundreds, thousands of small businesses that do just the hayday.

It's the YUGE companies that institutionalize sexism and racism that continue to discriminate.

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labrea_gw

all My Nephews cook 4 of them have housekeepers that come in to clean and so "their corporate wives are never going to hear or even imagine what it might feel like to have a sting when Tim or Liam says this place is a mess" They would simply get a new housekeeper they would never think it had anything to do with them personally of their failure as women . Only the older generation ask when are you going to have a baby their own cousins (would never intrude or it might come u[p casually as a life plan discussion among them at family gatherings)

The Domestic whip was a common tool of subjugation in my parents generation. The physical condition of the home was the understood responsibility of the WIFE (little woman) and there was palpable guilt & shame that went along with a husbands critique unless the wife was a (SHREW) who told the husband get off his ass but even there that would have been reactionary anger. The sting would have been felt.

The defined role was hit by many sledgehammers that permitted the husband to relinquish his role as LOVING PROTECTIVE Neanderthal in chief. (JACKIE GLEASON AS Role MODEL amiable bellowing provider & fool .

2 nephews have wives who make more than them have MBA's and a child some day could happen but was not a priority. One of my other nephews the oldest 46 & his girlfriend see no need to marry & do not want children this is very different from the cultural roles their parents were trained for and dropped 80's only 1 of the nephews were married in a Catholic church and that was more the stage prop ideal of the wife, their spouses were also brought up nominally Catholic but culturally ambitious the world is your oyster. Mo steno pool or typing pool for them (gone the way of the dodo)

These are independent women who are competitive in their fields and competitive with their own husbands.


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azmom

"I'm always wondering why some enterprising women don't get together and start a company and "exploit" this difference."

The problems in your comments:

1. Women are being paid less, instead of helping to equalize the pay scale between genders, you suggested to "exploit" the difference and take advantage of women who are being wronged on their pays?

2. As long as women are not being paid equally, what makes you think they would be paid fairly by any public or private owned businesses even if they leave their current jobs? Apparently, they will NOT because there are plenty of businesses would "Exploit" them.

3. Why could women not work at any companies of their choices, instead, they have to leave their current jobs to join "some enterprising women don't get together and start a company"?

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ann_t

Why should women have to "exploit" anything in order to be paid the same as a man doing an equal job?

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haydayhayday

If the word, (in quotes), "exploit" bothers you, find another word.

"1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

"500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology"

synonyms: utilize, harness, use, make use of, turn/put to good use, make the most of, capitalize on, benefit from;

informal cash in on

"we should exploit this new technology"

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+exploit&rlz=1C1_____enUS367US368&oq=define+exploit&aqs=chrome..69i57.6713j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

When all else fails, NITPICK.

Hay

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ann_t

Again, why should women have to work for other women in order to receive equal pay for equal work?

Is that what you are suggesting?

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azmom

Definition of exploit

transitive verb

1: to make productive use of : utilize <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness>

2: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>

There are issues in your comments following either definition.

Of course, same diverting approach - when you have no answers, accusing the people who ask questions "nitpick".

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Nothing Left to Say

Every time I see one of these threads.... where women aren't being paid as much as men for the same work....I'm always wondering why some enterprising women don't get together and start a company and "exploit" this difference.


It's not quite so easy as just starting up your own company. It requires capital, which is also not as available to women.

Women-owned businesses receive just 7 percent of venture capital investment money, which is highly disproportionate to their role in the economy. Additionally, loan approval rates for female entrepreneurs is 15 to 20 percent less than it is for men. Clearly, something is not right.


https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/281733

Start ups are usually associated with extremely long hours for initially low pay and poor benefits in the hopes of long term success. Not every woman is in a position to put in those kinds of hours or take that kind of risk. And not every woman wants that lifestyle (just like not every man does).


And, of course, women shouldn't have to start their own business to receive equal pay. We should expect fair treatment in all jobs.

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practigal

Ann "Jill, liberals want to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Conservatives moved on long ago."

Huh? Conservatives don't believe in birth control. The quiverfull movement is definitely conservative, not liberal and that movement is all about women being both barefoot and pregnant. Heck there are men who are going around the country trying to seduce more and more women and lie about not using birth control in order to ensure that there will be more (unwanted) children... that and rape will become increasingly popular in the increasingly anti-abortion climate. It's a pretty rough road that you are giving young women to walk today.

Ann, what is your favorite flavor of Kool-Aid?

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practigal

No Elvis I don't think you are confused I find that posts go missing quite frequently. I also noticed that at the same time that a poster named Margot appeared, noels66 left. When I accused Margot of being Noels66, they and many if not all of their posts disappeared....

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Ann

Practigal, why do you think conservatives don't believe in birth control? Aside from some individuals with strong religious opposition, that's a ridiculous statement.

PM, it's wonderful that women before us worked hard for the right to vote, work, and equal pay. But, women of today don't need to march about that anymore. The women before us succeeded in solving those issues. The women harping on it today just hold themselves down and look like whiners. Being grateful for progress made by our mothers and grandmothers is wonderful. Living one's life by whining about already solved issues is a waste of effort. The women who have moved on soar right on by with confidence and without their own unnecessary and self-imposed obstructions.

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labrea_gw

There is a corrosive force in the country & women continue to need to march IF THEY FEE LIKE MARCHING!

any troll who tells them there is no need would be part of the problem anyone who says your whining ague you have concern is a cancer cell!

Those who have the energy to say no or to diminish have an agenda & what is it why do they need to say stop marching what skin is it off their nose.

Go powder it

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SandyC.
Feminist does not relate to liberal or il- liberal, man or woman, democrat or republican.
A feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women. It is what women before us have fought for. To say you are over feminism is like saying I am done with the equal rights amendment. We are never done. Just look around the world at what is happening. Authoritarianism and right wing populist movements are in the rise. There is a xenophobic, misogynistic, racist movement as seen with the Trump campaign. Now more than ever, people should not remain silent.
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Ann

Sandy, I'm sure there is many a march you can join:)

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SandyC.
FYI, people that did not vote for Trump are not all " liberals". The Trump campaign was run on very far, far right wing agenda, with Steve Bannon, a white supremacist advising. So anyone left if Trump is not necessarily " liberal" they are non Trump voters, who do not condone racist, xenophobic rhetoric. Many republicans did not vote for Trump.
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Ann

But, many democrats did vote for Trump. All those middle America working people that voted for Obama and were disappointed in the last 8 years.

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Ann

Also, many of the republicans that didn't vote for Trump also didn't vote for Clinton. It was a most interesting election and very telling about how Americans are feeling.

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ann_t

Well I hope they are prepared for a bigger disappointment because trump won't be doing anything that will improve their lives. Just the opposite.

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haydayhayday

Practical,

It was me (and you?) that was confused about missing posts. Not Elvis.

Did you post this?

I'll ask again,

"More posts missing in this thread, too?

Practigal, isn't this the thread you made a comment about Roseberry and lies?

Now, I don't even see ANY posts by Roseberry.

Elvis, didn't you make some comments about that post of Practigal's?

Am I totally confused?"

If you can see it, post it again for all of us to see.

Thanks,

Hay

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haydayhayday

Just in case you didn't see it:

Sandy:


"I also know lots of engineers. Their brains are wired differently. Many nurses are married to engineers."


From all appearances, men and women are different.

Certainly physically.

Why would you not also think that, in a general sort of way, the average man's brain might be "wired differently" than the average woman's brain.

You're fond of telling us how rich you are. You did that on a nurse's salary? I think you said that was your career.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Azmom:

"Here is an article from about Gender Pay Gap as of Fall 2016.

By The American Association of University Women (AAUW)."

Funny.

Here is an article about the Lack of a Gender Pay Gap as of 2015:

https://mises.org/library/what%E2%80%99s-behind-gender-wage-gap

////////////////////

"Some myths die hard. The myth of the gender wage gap is one that’s had particularly long legs.

It’s all but taken for granted. Women make 77 cents on the dollar compared to what a man makes for the same work. I’ve been taught this since grade school. Indeed, it would seem to be that the only people who disagree with this are actual economists who study the issue.

As many have noted, a question quickly comes up when discussing wage discrepancies between two groups; if employers care so much about money (which progressives seem to be convinced of), why would they ever hire a man when they can hire a women to do the same thing for three quarters the cost?"

/////////////////////////////////////////

Much, much more in that article with tons of links to back it up.

Read it or ignore it. "You can lead a mare...."

Hay

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jillinnj

He was paid more than me. At the time, I was a little annoyed. But, a short time later and ever since, I took a good hard look at my company contribution compared to his and if I'm completely honest, his contribution was greater. So, not only do I think it's important to conduct oneself well in the workplace, but also to be honest about one's own value to the company.

Ann, what would you have done if your company contribution was equivalent or even better than his, yet you were making less money?

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SandyC.
Lots of engineers are women, lots of nurses are men. In college we used to have mixers and dances with the mostly male departments. That was a looong time ago :) but still the science and engineering departments are still a majority male.
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rob333 (zone 7a)

"His contribution was greater". Was it greater Ann, because he got more responsibility, dealt to him from higher ups and NOT given to you? That's another problem that happens in this cycle. They get it all. The respect, the responsibility, the money. I have been standing up for myself and it's been working. I shouldn't have to fight to get what is given away to a man.

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SandyC.
Hay why on earth would I tell you my source of income? The reason I have said Trumps huge tax cuts for the 1% and even larger for the 0.1% and tax cuts will help businesses and corporations. I don't see why the middle class are going to be helped. There will be huge tax cuts for the wealthy, And if Obamacare is repealed billions of tax dollars spent on providing medical care to the sick.
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catspa_zone9sunset14

I got fired for being pregnant. That was one year before passage of the Pregnancy Discrimination Act (1978), but apparently still happens, to the point that the EEOC issued a "reminder" to employers in 2014. How many times is that happening to a man?

Scanned through the OP video. Silly indeed, and talk about whinin'...

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Ann

Jill, if I sincerely had felt I was the higher contributor, I would have discussed it with my boss. I believe it was you that mentioned doing that and having good success and continued employment with the same company. But, if in a rational discussion, my boss had good points about the man's contributions being greater, I would have spent some time analyzing those points. If I ultimately decided I was being paid unfairly and they didn't want to change that, I might have looked for employment elsewhere. Also, I would have kept my conversations about my pay professional and within a direct line of my title. For example, I would not have bypassed my boss and gone directly to a higher level or to HR.

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Nothing Left to Say

"His contribution was greater". Was it greater Ann, because he got more responsibility, dealt to him from higher ups and NOT given to you? That's another problem that happens in this cycle. They get it all. The respect, the responsibility, the money. I have been standing up for myself and it's been working. I shouldn't have to fight to get what is given away to a man.

Your post reminds me of an incident I hadn't thought about in a long time. When I was in a clinic in school, the male teacher in charge doled out assignments. He was very haphazard in doing so. I went and asked for more work and was told that I didn't need any more. At the end of the semester they gave "mock" grades as the school was considering switching the course from pass fail to graded. He told me my grade would have been a B, not an A because I didn't do as much work as other students--all male. And asked for feedback on that. I told him that would be unfair because I had requested more work and he had refused to assign it to me. The two female assistant teachers, to my surprise, jumped in and told him I was absolutely right and that this was an ongoing issue. I think it can be hard to see more subtle discrimination and hard to know about patterns sometimes.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Practigal, isn't this the thread you made a comment about Roseberry and lies?

Now, I don't even see ANY posts by Roseberry.

Elvis, didn't you make some comments about that post of Practigal's?

Am I totally confused?"


I can't speak for practigal, but no, this isn't the thread Roseberry was accused of lying. That was the Planned Parenthood thread.


I've been reading this thread off and on, but I haven't participated. So, I don't know if any comments are missing from here.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

A blog post with helpful information on how sexism continues to be a problem:

https://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/female-traits/


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Ann

Did any of the women here ever get ahead BECAUSE of being a woman. For example, a company like the aforementioned Lockheed Martin has to fill positions with a certain percentage of women and minorities. So, if they have 5 candidates for an engineering position and 4 are male and 1 female, the female will very likely be the one to get the offer. I think we've reached a point in society where being a white male is not at all advantageous in the job market. For example, it's still true that women in engineering school are in the minority but, in the job market, they are sought after much more than their male counterparts. I think I got job offers, raises and promotions often because I was a woman and worked hard to act and dress professionally. Computer Science in the 1980s and 1990s was still predominately men and being a woman was a great asset to me. Heck, it was one of the reasons I chose that career - it was marketable, paid well, and lacking in qualified women.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

I call bs. "The one woman will get it because she's a woman"? You've got to be kidding. I work in a science world (on the fringes) and it's still dog eat dog, kick the women aside. Even the MD, PhDs.

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purrmichigan(5)

The women who have moved on soar right on by with confidence and without their own unnecessary and self-imposed obstructions.

It's a minority of people who believe we are post social issues. Period. Your comment is lightweight as in doesn't hold true for women as a whole. Or blacks and minorities as a whole.

Just because, in your subjective view, you and yours haven't experienced discrimination does not mean it doesn't exist. And stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that it may is denying facts. Facts are what matter in this discussion and in the real world. A highly subjective opinion based on a small sampling is not factual.

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Nothing Left to Say

No, I do not believe I was ever given a slot in school, a job, or a promotion because I am a woman.

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purrmichigan(5)

I doubt there's a woman anywhere in this patriarchal society who hasn't experienced a man: talking down, speaking over their words, re-explaining what that woman said. There's some cute word for it because it's so prevalent. And obnoxious.


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Ann

I live in the real world and it happens to be 2017. People just aren't concerned anymore if you are a woman, black, Hispanic, gay, etc. Show up to the table qualified, prepared and confident and the skies the limit. Condi Rice has some wonderful quotes and speeches on the topic. There is no need to hold yourself down or assume anyone else wants to hold people down. As I said earlier, that just creates an unnecessary and self-imposed obstruction.

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Kathy

It is so weird that the very people that benefitted from certain government programs now are against it for others? I don't get it....

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Ann

If you choose to, you can talk down to him or speak over his words - but maybe you instead choose to conduct yourself in a more civil manner. If he chooses to be rude to you, that's his problem. That, in no way needs to impede your success.

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purrmichigan(5)

A feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women. It is what women before us have fought for. To say you are over feminism is like saying I am done with the equal rights amendment.

I think it shows an insular life. Not representative of society as a whole.

Feminism and continuing to fight for equal rights and equal pay will continue. I don't like the fight and how far we haven't come but I so appreciate the fighters. Women and men.


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purrmichigan(5)

ople just aren't concerned anymore if you are a woman, black, Hispanic, gay, etc.

And you base this on what? What you're listening to for "news"? What are your sources for this belief? What excellent resources have you read to prove this theory?

It's dumbfounding. And one person's opinion. Not what most people believe because it isn't their experience.

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momj47(7A)

I live in the real world and it happens to be 2017. People just aren't concerned anymore if you are a woman, black, Hispanic, gay, etc.

Oh my, that comment must come from a world in an entirely different universe. or an incredibly sheltered closet in our universe.

People are definitely concerned, and the "most concerned" are the RWEx, especially the "christian" right wing extremists who wage constant and unending war against women.

White women, of course, but an even more vicious war against women of color, LGBT women, Asian women, Latino women.

Though any woman will do, even a RWEx woman, if she doesn't know her place.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

You should talk over him? Really? How do you think that would go over in one's job in the real world in 2017? Be as oafish as he, and that will cause _______ to happen? Sure, throw someone else's life away. Dismiss women with pedantry and treat them like they're allowing it to happen. It's how we've ended with women making 81% of what a man makes (where I live). Stop making excuses for the bad behavior of those males who act badly. Not all men are like this. But don't give that bad apple a pass.

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Ann

What government programs did certain people benefit from? I happened to be employed by a subcontractor of Lockheed Martin for the first 2 years of my career. I was paid a salary for my work on the Titan IV/Centaur program during that 2 years. After that job, I moved to other jobs outside of the aerospace industry. So, is the Titan IV/Centaur program the government program you are referring to? Might you be suggesting that no more government funds ever go to space programs and defense? Do you think there is any difference between gainful employment in the space/defense industry and the application for and receipt of needs based welfare?

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jillinnj

If I ultimately decided I was being paid unfairly and they didn't want to change that, I might have looked for employment elsewhere.

And you don't think you'd have a valid complaint of sexism if that's what happened?

Your posts imply we should just shut up and leave and find a new job. That's the problem.

Yes, I am the one that had the same situation and had a positive outlook. But the point is I should never have had to have that discussion. Why was I paid less? Because, consciously or not, they thought they could.



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ann_t

People get jobs for all kinds of reasons. What we are talking about here is whether or not a woman doing the same job, doing it as well as a man in the same position is receiving equal compensation.


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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

azmom: I was in the transportation industry and you can believe my claim to have made just as much and do the exact same work as the men doing the same work. I did it so I ought to know that which I am stating. Back in the early to mid '70's it was almost unheard of for a female to be driving big trucks.

OTOH, I have seen so much drivel spewed by people who don't know what they are talking about that this is like a comedy hour. What a bunch of fools here.

Watchmelol: That was quite enlightening with the typical parroting of the usual blather that spews. I almost fell out of my chair with the DWTS statement. I can understand where this comes from.

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purrmichigan(5)

Dismiss it with pedantry and treat them like they're allowing it to happen. It's how we've ended with women making 81% of what a man makes (where I live). Stop making excuses for the bad behavior of those males who act badly.

Very true.

Garden, you really should find a fresh rant.

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jillinnj

What we are talking about here is whether or not a woman doing the same job, doing it as well as a man in the same position is receiving equal compensation.

And we're talking about what they should do if they find out they're doing the same job, with the same experience, performing that job as well, and are not paid the same.

And let's not forget that it's unusual to find out what a co-worker is getting paid. It's not like that is common knowledge.

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practigal

Ann you must be retired... that's why you no longer have any issues in the workplace.

Ann, you said "Jill, liberals want to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Conservatives moved on long ago." Then you asked why I in the world I would propose the same absolute in the other direction. Why I would think that conservatives don't believe in birth control… that doesn't require an answer does it? Conservatives are desperate, really, really desperate to defund Planned Parenthood. It's been a big long fight that has been publicly played out in the press for years and of which you are well aware of. It is exactly that reason that I believe that conservatives do not want birth-control. Why did you ask?

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SandyC.
The old reverse discrimination against the poor working male, I was waiting for that one to come up. " did anyone get ahead because they were female?"
Same as O'Reilly s white lash reference on Fox, oh my goodness. Do people not read, are they that brainwashed by Fox News that they are just tuned out to the world around them? Kind of like the president elect, out of touch with reality, or just so intellectually challenged, he is out of touch with minorities and the struggles they still face. He told congressman Lewis to worry about his district and take care of the crime and poverty. Trump is the most ignorant man, probably doesn 't even know the congressman's district. I have been to Atlanta many times, I believe it is about 50% African American, a vibrant city, with many corporate head quarters and thriving businesses in his district.
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dockside_gw

Does anyone truly believe that women are total equals to men now? If so, please tell me why most Republicans voted against the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (which said the statute of limitations for a lawsuit commenced 180 days AFTER a woman discovered she was not being paid the same for the same work as a man) and the Fair Pay Act in 2014? And, what about the Sandra Fluke testimony re birth control which was so denigrated by Rush Limbaugh and parroted by right-wingers? We still don't have an ERA. The Supreme Court has repeatedly put gender discrimination in a different, lower class requiring legal protection, than race, religion, national origin which are a "suspect" class getting the highest scrutiny from the courts as to whether it is unconstitutional under the "equal protection" laws of the U.S.

I could match everyone, one for one, about anecdotal instances of being treated differently in the workplace than men. But it's not singular anecdotal stories that are what governs courts but the law. When laws (or constitutional amendments) have to be enacted to set forth the things employers and other institutions must do to treat women equally, and lawsuits brought to show that those laws are not being followed, it's pretty obvious that there are still problems regarding the treatment of women. And, does anyone actually believe employers and other organizations would treat and/or pay women equally if these laws were not in place?

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Yes, absolutely I got ahead because I am a female. Back in 1974 I was hired since they needed a token woman. Retired 26 years later. Only one company my entire working life. Everyone got the same pay in their category due to a collective bargaining agreement.


Do you all work nights or are you posting on company time? Legitimate question. If you are playing around on a forum while on company time you shouldn't be making the same as the men.

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Kathy

Ann, did you not say you were promoted because you were a woman?

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Ann

Practigal, I'm one who very much wants PP defunded, but I'm in favor of birth control. I'm not in favor of abortion and if PP eliminates abortions from their menu of services, I would be in favor of funding continuing. I understand they claim government funding doesn't go toward abortions but I'm highly skeptical of that claim of theirs. Also, the selling of body parts videos made me sick to my stomach.

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Kathy

Garden, I have a relative, a man, who works for government and spends copious time on FB...posting anti government talk....I have him blocked but it is ludicrous the very job he has because he is a vet, he abuses it...

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Ann

Kathy, I have no clue what was in the minds of those that hired me (sometimes men and sometimes women), but I do know, after I graduated with my degree in Computer Science with a very high GPA, job offers, promotions, pay raises, and bonuses almost felt like they fell in my lap. I was astounded at how far and how quickly I was able to advance. Simply having a marketable degree, a nice gray ladies business suit, a good resume, and a professional demeanor worked wonders. And, yes, I think being a woman, which was in a bit of a minority in my field, might have been a big asset.

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Ann

Someone wondered if I am retired. Yes.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

You give yourself too little credit Ann. Rather than say you were treated well because you were a woman, why wasn't it because of your high GPA, for instance? Did you not have a great work ethic? How in the world is it all about being female? I don't get it. You must not be telling us something???

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SandyC.
To give an anecdotal excuse, for such a deeply historic civil rights topic and basically dismissing it, as no longer existing is what drives me nuts, about so many far right and even tea party ideals. To think just because someone doesn't see it as a problem in their insulated bubble, is not only naive, but downright insensitive and cruel. It might be helpful to read some biographies of women, women who have made a difference in our lives. My husband reads 2-3 books a week, I bought him the 10 best books of the year from NPR for Christmas. One is the 3rd volume of Eleanor Roosevelt, the war years and after, by Blanche Cook.I highly recommend the entire series, but this 3rd volume is very good."every woman interested in politics or interested in public life will want to read this book. Roosevelt is bold and searching, a woman of struggle, action, and achievement. Every issue, every battle and controversy she faced- both public and private-continues today." Bella Abzug
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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Kathy, as is everyone here on company time and posting.

I am a harda$$ as a boss and would fire the lot of them. Yes, I have quite often been a boss; I also operated stock farms and could never find females to do the same work as I did on the farm. Cleaning barns and hauling bales, smalls, was hard work.

I am glad you validated the argument about too many government workers that they have nothing to do. If he could sit around and do FB, there wasn't enough work in front of him.

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Ann

Nope, I told you everything. As far as work ethic, mine was not the best. I'm an excellent student but my work ethic on the job is less than stellar. I'm far to social and not good at keeping my nose to the grindstone:)

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Rose

Many are gray-hair hippies. Sticking up for more government--how far they have fallen.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Interesting Gardener that you got your job because they needed a "Token" female. and apparently you have never thought through why they needed a "Token" female and you were apparently pleased to have a job where they would not have valued your abilities except that they had too and your equal pay was the result of a union fighting for your rights? Do you hear yourself?

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jillinnj

I understand they claim government funding doesn't go toward abortions but I'm highly skeptical of that claim of theirs.

What do you base your skepticism on? Have you evaluated their reportings, which they are required to provide? Or do you base it on the fact that you want it to be true?

Also, the selling of body parts videos made me sick to my stomach.

You allow completely altered/edited videos to factor into your decision on such an important topic? Shame on you.

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SandyC.
Nope, not me. I am blonde and not a hippie. Rose what about women's equal rights do you consider part of government? That is a rather hostile comment :) oh, I forgot you posted that silly you tube, how it equates to feminism is beyond me? Are you a male?
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Kathy

, Garden he was a thief of time as far as I am concerned, but rest assured I am not on any companies time. I did work in a workplace where women and minorities would never have had a foot at the table of management unless the company was forced to comply. That is why I said the very people who are against government interference are the ones who benefited from it in the past.

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Ann

My greatest contribution to the last company I worked for was the hiring of a particular guy I had previously worked with. This guy could program circles around anyone else and had the work ethic of 20 people combined. I tried for a year to recruit/steal him from his previous company. I begged HR to let me offer him a higher and higher amount. Finally, I convinced him and my company and he accepted my offer. Once there, the whole IT department ran like a well oiled machine (which I knew it would if I could get him). When I retired, he moved into my position and has since moved into the executive offices (in very short order). So, I was extremely valuable to the company in my mission and success in hiring this guy, but my own work ethic was so so. Plus, in my several years as manager, I had very little to do once this guy was hired since the department and software then ran so well and with so few problems. So, I do give myself credit for some good decision making and perseverance (it was a serious effort to get this guy hired, lol).

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jillinnj

Do you all work nights or are you posting on company time? Legitimate question. If you are playing around on a forum while on company time you shouldn't be making the same as the men.

Ridiculous.

First, you assume men aren't doing something similar.

Second, you do understand that most of us do not work at jobs where we clock in and out and get paid by the hour, right?

Speaking for myself, I never work an 8 hour day. My days are way longer than 8 hours. And I am basically on call 24/7. So, if I spend a little time each day taking a break and this is how I choose to spend it, it's none of your business.

I am also a boss. I do not watch what my employees are doing with every second of their time. If they get their work done on schedule, and we meet our promised deadlines, I don't care where and when they do that work. And just as I don't care if they go outside for a cigarette, I don't care if they spend a bit of their time on the internet.

In fact, if I micro managed them to the extent that I complained they spent a small portion of their time on the internet, I would not hang on to any intelligent person.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Ann-That's exactly what a good manager does-knows their strengths and how to best use other strengths. It's still got nothing to do with gender.


_________________ and

I ECHO JILL'S EVERY WORD.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

I'm guessing you are maybe 10 years younger than I, Ann, and what a difference those 10 years made (not to mention the field you entered; computer science had barely begun as a discipline the first time I went to college!). You are correct that conditions in the workplace are much better now than they were then. A far cry from 1970, when my high school guidance counselor, Miss Valentine (yes, that was her name, I've never forgotten) pushed aside my request to take pre-calculus because, "you're bound to be getting married soon, anyway."

Santa Rosa High School (in those days Santa Rosa was a small-to-middling-sized, ag-oriented town and Future Farmers of America was the biggest club on campus) only offered one pre-calculus (and no calculus) class and, if they hadn't discouraged women from taking it, they would have had to offer 2 pre-calculus classes, which they were apparently not willing to do... That fateful moment cost me about 25 years, science-career-wise. Like many women, I didn't have the confidence to jump into math and science classes at UC Berkeley without having learned pre-calculus in high school, so I studied ancient history, Latin, and Greek instead ... Later on (when our daughter finished high school), I returned to school myself, where, older and more confident, I aced every math (including calculus) and science class I took.

As a part-time ecology/biology instructor at a community college (I do consulting the rest of the time), I would say that getting women to feel more confident about their math and science abilities, and keeping men from unduly dominating groups and discussions in class and lab is still something of a problem, though getting better. Yes, overall way better in the workplace, but there are still forces afoot such that vigilance is needed to keep progress from being lost. Women in physics (my husband's field) have had a particularly protracted struggle against that old-boys' network.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I multitask well, but being a sole practitioner family law attorney means I am in charge of determining my work load and assessing whether it is sufficient for meeting the expenses and mundane sorts of budget items an adult will tend to have. I have managed to do quite nicely, though it's a combination of accepting realities like "if I spend wildly instead of putting money aside, I will not be able to *do this thing*" (be it having the house painted, floors/carpet replaced, new blinds to replace the broken old ones all in the same fiscal year, or reaching the goal of being able to replace the 11 year old vehicle with a new one that will be paid for in full before driving it off the lot, and staying on top of the credit cards so there's no downward spiral into crushing bankruptcy likely debt.) and sheer luck.

I also suffer from insomnia. So there can be quite a lot of hours in which I can do work stuff, as well as 'fritter away online'.

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

I clocked in and out and for breaks and had a few 16 hour days. They did value my work or I wouldn't have been there.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Many are gray-hair hippies.

And proud of it, Rose, proud!

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rob333 (zone 7a)

gardenlori, but you're comparing physical work (which I have done plenty, long hours and volunteered, not paid) with desk jobs. Fire away, but you're comparing two incomparable worlds. I too would fire someone that was supposed to be hauling things with me, working as hard as I am, and instead was online. Sure. But when it's a desk job, it takes nothing away from the work.

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Kathy

Ann, I have no doubt you were a conceinous employee. The point is you benefitted from PP at a time when you felt there was no where else to turn. Your choice was yours and not made by someone else. You also held a job as a woman when laws were being passed for equal rights for women in a field where they needed quotas. Now you want to deny the same freedoms to others. Times have changed and even though strides have been made women still are not treated as equals. It was Scalia that said the Constitution does not assure equal rights for women. I believe he meant it has to be amended if that is to be constitutional.

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

I beg to differ. Time spent on things other than work when you are at work and getting paid to me is dishonest. But who am I to say; I could have never sat at a desk and stare at a screen all day. I prefer being active.

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SandyC.
I believe we were talking about the workforce, including entrepreneurs, VC funding and the high tech world, not only manual labor jobs. As we know, the glass ceiling was almost cracked in the US government, but in corporate America there is still a huge disparity, much more VC Funding available to males, many more start ups by males.
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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The argument between people with experience in a variety of occupational categories over the value of the person's labor, whether intensely physical, in STEM, in education, healthcare...is the kind of thing that can go around in circles with no real resolution precisely because of this variety of life experiences with work.

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ann_t

That isn't the only thing Ann wants to deny other women.

She also wants to deny other women access to abortion. An option she was able to choose for herself.

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Ann

Catspa, sounds like we're the same age. I graduated in 1971 and, unlike you, I was encouraged to and did take calculus in high school. But, I went to a large high school in Denver so the environment must have been very different. I was highly encouraged to take accelerated classes by the school counselor and she even helped facilitate my graduating from high school at the end of my junior year. She then encouraged me to enter the University of Puget Sound as a pre-med student. I did all that but never followed through with that major and left Tacoma after a year to return to Colorado (I missed Colorado). Then, I married young and had children young and didn't get back into college until my youngest reached school age. At that time, I made the computer science decision.

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azmom

Jill, if I sincerely had felt I was the higher contributor, I would have discussed it with my boss. I believe it was you that mentioned doing that and having good success and continued employment with the same company. But, if in a rational discussion, my boss had good points about the man's contributions being greater,"

Ann,

I doubt you have the grasp of our discussion. Why did you give us an example that obviously you did not perform as well as your male counterpart, so you did not get same pay, while we were on the subject of " women not getting equal pay even they have equal qualification and make equal contribution"?

"Did any of the women here ever get ahead BECAUSE of being a woman. For example, a company like the aforementioned Lockheed Martin has to fill positions with a certain percentage of women and minorities. So, if they have 5 candidates for an engineering position and 4 are male and 1 female, the female will very likely be the one to get the offer. I think we've reached a point..."

Ann,

You just gave us another example of reverse discrimination. What we are working toward is equality between women and men, without discrimination and reverse discrimination. The case you provided showing a true inequality, yet you call it "living in a real world".

Do you feel good for getting ahead because of you receive the favoritism? Do you understand once you accept favoritism, you give up the right to fight for equality when you were being treat unfairly?

I am amazed by the fact that you counted hiring a shiny start as your contribution to the company even after you left the job, instead of giving credit to that hard working employee.

I now recall you took credit for your daughter's accomplishment as your "good parenting skills", while most parents including myself, would contribute our children's achievements to their own work and effort.

Now I understand why you voted for Trump, as everything horrible he did, to you it is a "real life", and is totally acceptable. But to us, this approach is complicity, is regressive, is selfish, is irresponsible for yourself, and for future generations.

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azmom

Hay,

"Funny.

Here is an article about the Lack of a Gender Pay Gap as of 2015:"

I read the article you cited:

Here are the reasons of LACKING of a gender pay Gap:

1. It used categories of jobs that most of the employees are women, and then compared their pay to the small percentage of men employees.

2. It cited women paid more in 11 cities, then described these women have better education than their male counterpart.

3. It showed Asian Americans household have higher income, then showed Asian Americans have the highest educational attainment of any racial group in the country; about 49.8% of them have at least a bachelor degree.

4. It used "Men and Women Often Have Different Career Goals" to show as women pick less paid careers than men, therefore there is no pay gap.

5. It itemized the following to explain away why men and women's pay are different, guess once you factor these in, there is no pay gap.

  • Men go into technology and hard sciences more than women.
  • Men tend to take more stressful jobs that are not "nine-to-five."
  • Men are more likely to work longer hours, and the pay gap widens for every hour past 40 per week.
  • Women are more likely to have "gaps" in their careers, primarily because of child rearing and child care. Less experience means lower pay.

I don't want to continue, Hay, you waste our time by providing an article with irrelevant information.

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Ann

Equality is great but you can't always force it and that's exactly my point. Whether or not I got preferential treatment for being a woman, I'll never know, but I did suspect it at times. Did I walk away from good jobs and promotions because I wondered if the fact that I was a woman was helping me - heck no. I worked hard for my degree and I was going to take advantage of the job opportunities it afforded me. I also didn't walk away from my great job when I discovered my male peer was making more than me. I was doing just great at the time and wasn't about to mess with the great employment situation I was in. As far as the shining star, you would be so very wrong on that one. One of the best things about me as a boss was that I never, ever took credit for the accomplishments of my team. It was all them - they knew I felt that way - people above me knew I felt that way - and I knew I felt that way. That shining star couldn't have possibly received more praise, thanks, bonuses, and salary hikes if he dreamed of it. My good employees were treated like gold. The worst of my employees received tiny raises and were let go if the situation deemed it. I followed the ethics standards of the company but I didn't give anyone a participation award just for showing up. But, the high performers couldn't have had a more supportive boss. I love people that have a high desire to reach lofty goals - in life, in work, in sports, etc. People like that grab my attention and get a ton of my respect.

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Ann

Oh, and I do pat myself and my husband on the back for our parenting style. Our kids are quite remarkable and I think we did a fine job of helping them recognize their own capabilities at a very early age. But, that is completely independent of how we feel about THEIR accomplishments. I bet you couldn't find two kids that feel more parental pride (both coming from us toward them and their children and from them toward their young children).

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Your bringing in that shining star was actually "your greatest contribution to the last company". So...Getting someone else a good job with your employer, who would eventually go on to assume your position after you'd retired.

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azmom

gardenerlorisc,

"Everyone got the same pay in their category due to a collective bargaining agreement".

Good for you for getting equal pay. I believe in addition to your excellent work ethic, in your line of work you also have the protection of collective bargaining agreement to ensure your equal pay.

It is not the case in lots of professional jobs in many fields. Up until my last position, I worked 55-65 hours/weekly for 20 years without extra pay (as in the "Professional category"). I picked up and got on flights for domestic and international assignments at moment notice. My husband and our next generations have exact same "professional life" as of today. We also know DD gets less pay than her male counterpart, and DS has better career opportunities than the women in his field.



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Ann

Basically azmom, you don't know me or my children, and your description or impression is far from correct. I also don't know you, so I will be wise enough to not even begin to judge you or try to paint you in an incorrect way. I'll leave that tactic to you. Have fun with it.

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Ann

That's correct Jennifer. I think the employee I brought into that company (through tremendous effort over the course of a year) was my greatest contribution. I knew what he had to offer and he has far exceeded even my lofty expectations. I worked with him when he was young and I just always had a gut feeling about his future success. He will soon sit alone at the very top of the org chart.

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azmom

"Equality is great but you can't always force it and that's exactly my point."

If our predecessors thought the same way as you did, you would not be able to vote, go to college, own properties... do even 1/4 of what you could now. I am so glad not every woman thinks like you.

Tell us, as of today more than 50% of the college graduates are women, why there is only 4.2% women CEOs? why only 7% of the women could get VC loan? Then you tell us no trail need to blaze.

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azmom

Ann,

You are correct, I do not know you and your family. I am not judging you, as my comments are only based on what you shared with us. I don't think I am the only one who has the same impressions.

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bry911

As a man, I don't feel particularly harmed by feminism. To be honest I didn't watch any of the video, if you can find the abbreviated version I may watch it, but I looked at the length and closed it immediately. I have read through a few posts, but not all.

I am not sure what "masculine" means in the real world, and I am not sure the idea adds any real value to society.

However, I find arguments that feminism has achieved the necessary goals are silly in light of the double burden that too many women still bear. Equal pay and workplace treatment are only half the battle, we also have to tackle traditional gender roles in the home.

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Kathy

Before Women Lib as its called, woman could be as talented or as qualified as men but still would be passed over for a job because the men had families to support. I heard that reasoning mentioned more than once in the workplace. Then because a black woman checked two boxes of anti-discrimination they were the next preferred as companies had to comply with the laws. The fact we have never had a woman President as so many other countries that are less progressive than US shows there is still discrimination by some in our society, even if it is subtle.

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Woman president? My gosh, we might have had one but the one they put up was so despicable in so many ways it ,thankfully, did not happen. Are we really a progressive country?

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Rose

What are female students majoring in?

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Pidge

Rose: business, nursing, the sciences, and journalism.

ETAL I only wish students were eager to be English,, History, or Philosophy majors!

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Kathy

Do many women go into engineering?

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purrmichigan(5)

azmom probably has stats on that Kathy. Children get so much encouragement in classrooms to go into STEM careers. but, like Pidge I love History and English. Different types of intelligence for each.

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elvis

I too would fire someone that was supposed to be hauling things with me, working as hard as I am, and instead was online. Sure. But when it's a desk job, it takes nothing away from the work.

Oh, man. I have got to send this one to the HR Department. She could use a good laugh.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Ann, I'm going to try and say this as gently as possible...Stop. Consider for a bit that perhaps you have had a privileged life - privilege isn't all the things you get handed, but the things you never have to endure or worry about. It doesn't have to be your personal experience to exist or be valid! So you made mostly good decisions and the result was a level of success which you are happy with, passed what you learned from that on to your children, things in your view are great - no need for any more of that silly feminism stuff, only resentful people are still pushing that!

But maybe...that view is wrong. (I think it is, many others do as well...) Not everyone starts from the same line, not everyone has supportive parents or grew up in an area with quality schools, in a safe community, or without disabilities. It would be lovely if that whole "I managed, I pulled myself up and succeeded, therefore everyone who doesn't do so is to blame for their failing to" idea could just disappear, but it's a sign of the deeply rooted inequality in every level and institution this country has. Realize that women have often been the 'cultural enforcers', imposing restrictions and allowing their fellow women to be barred from access to things they themselves were able to have, because doing so was the way to retain their privileged status and at the whim of men they know it can be taken from them simply because they are female.

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purrmichigan(5)

I can't imagine sitting in a chair and staring at a computer screen all day. How solitary that must be. HR Departments probably get that. People aren't robots - they need to look at something to do with the real world for a few minutes every day. Ugh .... the epitome of boring imo.

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jillinnj

Haha, see how different we all are. I so much prefer to be 'staring at my screen' all day and actually getting work done, but unfortunately I spend a ridiculous amount of time in webex meetings. Talking. I so prefer to be alone and just work!

--

Oh, man. I have got to send this one to the HR Department. She could use a good laugh.

What a strange environment you must work in. In what world does HR set the rules for what work gets done, when and how? Not in my world. In my world, it's the managers and leaders that do that. If anyone complained to HR about someone being on the internet while at their desk, well yes that would cause a big laugh.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Do many women go into engineering?

Interesting question, Kathy. It seems that 20% of undergraduate engineering degrees are awarded to women, but only 13% of the engineering workforce is female (MIT study). According to the linked study, one of the elements deterring women, along with the usual suspects (lack of mentors, work/life issues, lack of confidence) is that older gender roles re-emerge when they join an engineering team. Women tend to get relegated to humdrum "support" roles, it seems, rather than doing the "fun stuff", when men are part of a team, which discourages them.

I can believe this, as I see it happening in my college biology labs all the time, where students work in groups of 4 on many projects. My strategy is to constantly circulate and "social engineer" the dynamics a bit by making sure all members of the group get to do at least one of the "bold" or lead tasks in an experiment/exercise.

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Kathy

I understand that engineers are in short supply in the US and that is one area they feel we need to bring on people from other countries. I agree with Ann on making the point that women and men too need guidance to pick an area to study that will be in demand if they hope to make a decent salary. It seems engineering would be an easy choice. I wonder if the stereotype of men as engineers is still prevalent?

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purrmichigan(5)

Students who get the best career counseling in hs have a great advantage. The real deal testing isn't cheap though, but I imagine it saves a lot of money in the long run. Tests can reveal careers that a student may never have thought of, but the tests reveal they have the mental, emotional, physical aptitude for. Much different than interest inventories or basic skill testing.

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Ann

Sounds to me like a large group of you should get together and march for women's rights. Is there any end to the things you feel the need to whine about, complain about, or feel like someone owes you?

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jillinnj

Is there any end to the things you feel the need to whine about, complain about, or feel like someone owes you?

That's what you got from this conversation?

That is very sad but I should not be surprised.

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purrmichigan(5)

Weird takeaway, but no surprise :))

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Out of EVERYTHING I specifically wrote directly to you, Ann, that's your take away?

That it's an endless whining and complaining?

I'm sorry you feel that way. You are wrong.

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Ann

Jennifer, the first thing I noticed and my biggest take away was the "Stop". To that, my thought bubble was "who do you think you are". I certainly would never feel right telling any person on HT to "Stop". But, you and I are different.

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Ann

The thing is, Jennifer, I don't feel that you are superior to me or me superior to you. Thus, saying "Stop" to someone feels like one of us may feel that way. I think your comments and your opinions are up to you, not me. Carry on but good luck when you attempt to dictate.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Ann, I, for one, am not whining, and have seen huge progress in my lifetime, but equal status in society between women and men is clearly still a work in progress. I'm not seeing what you seem to presume, that no more can reasonably be done. Not because it is "owed" but because it is fair, and ultimately better for society as a whole (as in, "all of us"). Somewhat overlooked in the skirmish here (not commented on, at least) is bry911's excellent point about the still-existing problem of women's double burdens, i.e., having to keep up traditional gender roles in the home even while working. I can only hope it's getting better for younger generations, because it has certainly been an issue in my life, not because my husband was unwilling -- mostly because the imprint of the old milieu was so pervasive, he was clueless.

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elvis

Not in my world. In my world, it's the managers and leaders that do that...If anyone complained to HR about someone being on the internet while at their desk, well yes that would cause a big laugh.

It's pretty commonplace for managers to "do that", not just in your "working-at- home" world, which is also pretty commonplace, and certainly more flexible. You can work in your PJs with no makeup: yay! As I'm sure you're aware, not all types of jobs lend themselves to working at home, especially when the work involves interacting with the public in live, in-person, right-across-the- counter contacts with hikers, snowmobilers, loggers, fishermen, campers, law enforcement, County Board, Courthouse personnel, etc. When I'm at work, I'm working. If I were to sit at the computer and "play" on the internet (as opposed to using the internet for its intended purpose at my job, which is not personal use), my manager would strenuously object, and rightly so. After going through the required series of steps, i.e. warnings, etc., the matter would indeed end up at HR if I insisted that it really was quite all right to "play" (personal use) on the internet instead of, or even while, doing my job. They would think I had lost my mind.

Work ethics are going to hell in a hand basket, no wonder this country has financial problems.

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Kathy

Elvis, does it bother you the hell in a handbag Congress only worked 110 days last year and we paid their wages, healthcare and pension plan?

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

elvis, may I like 100 times?

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Ann

Catspat, I love your comment. I couldn't agree more. In my own working years, juggling home, children and work was incredibly challenging. My husband is a great guy but the bulk of the home stuff landed on my shoulders. It was a challenging time for me because I really love homemaking and adore my children and I wasn't willing to let any of that slide. I actually think that had an impact on my less than stellar work ethic. But, while I see all of this as a challenge, I don't think there is much the government can or should do about it. I think it needs to be figured out within the family. I expect companies that provide services like work from home opportunities or daycare are and will be very popular among workers. Wouldn't it be convenient for a woman choosing to breastfeed to be able to be able to spend some time in the company daycare nursing her baby? But, again, I don't think these are government issues.

Thank you for your willingness to converse in a civil manner. I love talking to people like you on HT, even if our political views may differ.

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purrmichigan(5)

I've done both types of jobs. Until you've sat behind a computer for every minute of your work time it's hard to envision taking a visual and mental break. People who abuse that flexibility will feel the results. Do you really never ever chat a little longer with a customer or coworker than necessary?

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Ann

Elvis, my husband spent the last many years of his career with a full time home office while working for a big company. His work ethic was phenomenal. I so admire that about him. I don't think it would have been a good fit for me as I don't think I could have been as dedicated as him. I think it's a pretty special and maybe unusual quality that leads one to be that extraordinarily honest and fair about their productivity.

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cait1

@ Jennifer D

Not everyone starts from the same line, not everyone has supportive
parents or grew up in an area with quality schools, in a safe community,
or without disabilities
.

Why do progs continue to hold such BS ideas?

It's like saying you can't overcome whatever misadventure you get yourself in if your don't have 'supportive parents'. I'm even sure there are plenty of people who made it without the benefit of any parents. There are so many people we meet in our lives who've we've looked up to in one way or the other but it seems to me progs think we all live in some kind of bubble without any kind of outside influence. Really... even a book can change your entire outlook.

Is it really just this 'dependency' factor that progs rely so much on? It's the progs who believe 'government' should give you everything and cradle-to-grave everyone. I sometimes thinks progs just want that transference from 'supportive parents' to full blown govt take-over of a person's life set in everyone's minds.

Often it's hardships that build a solid character.

'Quality schools' mean nothing, too, if a kid isn't interested in learning.

'Safe communities' don't exist, either. 'Gated communities' for the rich, sure, but I think we're talking 'average family' here.

Progs really need to move on from their 18th century view of those with 'disabilities'. Read up on Anne Sullivan. Disabilities pose special challenges, for sure, but depending on the severity, many can and do overcome whatever challenge they face.

It seems that 'self-reliance' is missing from the progs' vocabulary.

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Ann

I chatted with coworkers far more often than necessary!

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cait1

Elvis, does it bother you the hell in a handbag Congress only worked 110
days last year and we paid their wages, healthcare and pension plan?

I remember reading that Jefferson was more than happy to be VP because it meant he could mostly stay at Monticello and work his farm. I think most early politicians still kept their businesses going while working in government.

The problem with those in the modern government is that politicking is their sole business. I have no problem paying them wages, but healthcare and pensions should be paid from their own pocket and not be the burden of the taxpayer, especially since so many make great amounts of money by insider trading and the connections they make.

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SandyC.
There are thousands of engineers employed in Silicon Valley in high tech, working here on work visas. It is very hard to fill positions, as there are not nearly enough US citizens, qualified for the positions. Also, it is difficult to attract young engineers as the housing is so expensive. High tech and Medicine are both hiring. Of course not for long, if 20,000,000 lose health insurance. Lots of closed hospitals and clinics.
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Kathy

The population when Jefferson was President was approx 6.5million...currently it is 325million plus the President is leader of the Free world...(WAS)

I don't think that leaves a lot of time to twitter away his time.

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Kathy

Yes, Sandy I wonder how many jobs will be lost since Healthcare was one of the fastest growing fields.

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SandyC.

Unfortunately, engineering is not as lucrative as finance and business. Of course if you are geniuses like Sergei and Larry, and are lucky enough to start a successful company, it is, but it is a lot harder than the likes of Trump and his merry band of Wall St. billionaires. Engineers from overseas are still in high demand, a starting salary is just barely a living wage in this area.

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purrmichigan(5)

since so many make great amounts of money by insider trading

:)))

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Ann

Engineering provides a very nice income in most places. Maybe not enough to make one rich, but certainly enough to do a good job of supporting oneself and family.

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gardenerlorisc_ia(4a)

Why so many work visas for foreign workers? Are there no Americans who can be trained to do that work?

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purrmichigan(5)

California is an expensive place to live. My family is full of engineers who live all over the country and in Scotland and have done very well financially. Detroit is home to many engineers and I haven't heard about positions going unfilled or filled with immigrants on visas.

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SandyC.
Females are not going into these professions, because very few are prepared in high school. We employ many engineers from overseas. Also, there are a lot of foreign students who are enrolled in the sciences. We do not have adequate preparation in public high schools. Maybe instead of worrying about cutting taxes for the wealthy, we could think of education and training. Also, as Germany has done, they have invested in re- training their citizens when jobs are lost to automation. This will never happen in the next 4 years, but we can hope.
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SandyC.
"Are there no Americans that can be trained?"
The question is are there no Americans that can afford a four year college degree and often an advanced degree?
Are there any Americans that have an adequate high school preparation? Foreign students are sooooo much more prepared. They receive way more sciences and math than the US. Our colleges rely on foreign students, who pay huge out of state tuition to help with costs.
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elvis

Kathy

Elvis, does it bother you the hell in a handbag Congress only worked 110 days last year and we paid their wages, healthcare and pension plan?

Now, now Kathy. How do you know they weren't diligently "working from home"? ;D

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SandyC.
Pure, the hedge fund managers are the billionaires. The group Trump has assembled to run Wall St, lol.
In Silicon Valley there is a lot of wealth. The money is in the VCs, the money guys, the CEOs and CFOs, the bankers.
Engineers begin at a starting level salary and have to put in a lot of blood, sweat and tears to climb the ladder.
Marketing and finance are the movers and shakers.
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Rose

And I'd venture to say they don't give out participation trophies to losers.

_______________________________________________________

SandyC.

"Are there no Americans that can be trained?"
The question is are there no Americans that can afford a four year college degree and often an advanced degree?
Are
there any Americans that have an adequate high school preparation?
Foreign students are sooooo much more prepared. They receive way more
sciences and math than the US. Our colleges rely on foreign students,
who pay huge out of state tuition to help with costs.



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Rose

Sure hope Peter Thiel decides to run for Governor. Buh-bye Moonbeam.

________________________________________________

SandyC.

Pure, the hedge fund managers are the billionaires. The group Trump has assembled to run Wall St, lol.
In Silicon Valley there is a lot of wealth. The money is in the VCs, the money guys, the CEOs and CFOs, the bankers.
Engineers begin at a starting level salary and have to put in a lot of blood, sweat and tears to climb the ladder.
Marketing and finance are the movers and shakers.

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palisades_

Engineers couldn’t escape the fate of being outsourced to
cheaper salaries to foreigners on visas.
That, and age discrimination when they get over 50 years old. Many of
them become too expensive. Health care professions fair better than most.

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Kathy

I know the auto industry has many engineers from other countries on contract working here.

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purrmichigan(5)

My BIL sister and kids moved once a year for 19 years. That was the price they paid for him to become an executive at Exxon. OTH my father was a mechanical and electrical engineer for General Motors. Company car, month off in the summer, excellent health insurance and pension. An ideal job for him and our family. Made him happy as he worked in R&D and took cars up Pikes Peak for testing, brought home Rolls Royces and other experimental cars. Friends who are engineers are doing well with the car companies. So, my perspective is that it's a good career.

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SandyC.
Rose, is Peter going to donate to our public high schools? I hadn't heard. That would be great. You do realize many of our immigrants are the brightest, the innovators.
Peter Thiel is a German immigrant, his parents moved here when he was an infant.
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purrmichigan(5)

I didn't know that, Kathy. It isn't a complicated problem getting kids into STEM careers. We need a bigger investment in public schools to keep up with other and less wealthy countries. Betsy DeVoss is the last person who should be chair of DOE. She's created train wrecks wherever she goes.

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SandyC.

Rose, why do you not like Jerry Brown? You sound jealous. He is a beloved politician. He certainly doesn't need the money,he is a true public servant, and will defend all of his citizens rights.

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purrmichigan(5)

In the meantime while our students get prepared for STEM careers it is nice to have the cultural diversity from immigrants on visas. How much more interesting to live among people different from yourself. And Dearborn, where Ford Motor is located, has one of the most vibrant small towns in MI.

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SandyC.
I don't see it happening any time soon. We are losing good teachers, it is just too expensive to live here on a teachers salary. Even for those with the passion, the love of the kids, it is not possible, if they ever want to own a home.
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SandyC.
NPR had a show on ageism in the tech industry. It is a very youth oriented culture.
As far as I know, the engineers that are here on visas are not being paid less than an American of the same position. They can't fill the positions by Americans. One of my tenants is here from Australia on a 2 year visa. They paid his relocation fees, and gave him a housing stipend. He is making a good starting salary. Of course outsourcing is a different story.
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purrmichigan(5)

The COL is a factor in where engineers would end up living. But I think the rest of the country, I know for certain here in MI where there are a lot of engineering jobs, the COL is reasonable. MI offers a lot, right Kathy?

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Cait, some of what you say is true, but your overall conclusion rings wrong. I overcame a working-class childhood from hell, but it's a heck of a hard way to "build character" and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I won't bore you with all the gruesome details (father's sudden death, alcoholic mother), but I can tell you that modest Social Security survivor's benefits that allowed me to attend UC Berkeley on my own, a brief use of food stamps when I was pregnant (and got fired from my job for being so), and federal subsidies for charity care at New York City's teaching hospitals, where our daughter was born for a scrounged payment of $700 (welfare was not an option, especially in those days), saved our lives. My husband and I largely made and paid our own way (neither he or I had help from parents), with critical bits of help for those bumps along the way. Help does not equal dependency. We achieved success, have repaid that help many times over these past decades, are grateful, and do not begrudge the same kind of help to others (and personally give help also), despite being "self-made" (a misnomer if ever there was one). We are, after all, "progressives".

Of course there are "safe communities", leaving aside the remote but constant possibilities of earthquake or social collapse or.... The crime rate in the city where we've lived the past 15 years is laughably low, especially compared to the New York City in the late 1970s (which was collapsing), or Berkeley in the early 1970s, or the neighborhood where I grew up, where I saw a man shot to death in front of our house when I was 16. Still, the conservatives in my neighborhood hyperventilate the 3 or 4 times a year some trifle gets stolen (usually a crime of opportunity, and pretty much all that ever happens - talk about "snowflakes"!). There are no murders in a typical year here....

As to your last point about disabilities, as an instructor who tries to teach whoever walks in the door (community college, everybody admitted), I can say that there are some disabilities that cannot be overcome. Yes, there are sometimes wonderful successes, but you have to allow tor those who will never succeed.

Even so, the progress made by women still ranks among the top events of my lifetime, despite everything else (and there's been a lot of that) that has happened.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Well, Jerry Brown is going to term out in two years, Rose, so there will be someone new as governor, anyway.

Peter Thiel? He's too weird even for us, I think. First, he goes around saying stuff like this, "Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible ... ". (source) That makes everybody nervous -- hopefully even conservatives. Plus, he seems strangely and intensely obsessed with cryogenic preservation and immortality -- that makes everyone even more nervous. And, as Meg Whitman illustrated to the nth degree, you can spend a boatload of money in California -- astounding, record amounts -- and still not get to be governor.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ditto what catspat says about eMeg.

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We may see a north-south duel of philandering mayors to replace Jerry Brown. While neither may be in Moonbeam's rarified league, they both have 'good hair' and are easy on the eyes. Should be an entertaining primary season. The actual governing after the final vote may be another story.

There's competition from a state elected official as well -- John Chang?