Republicans gear up to defund Planned Parenthood

sunflower_petal(5a)

The vast majority of federal money that Planned Parenthood does receive funds preventive health care, birth control, pregnancy tests, breast cancer screening and other womens health care services.

Removing funding for these services will ensure that the abortion rate goes up not down. Education and prevention services are the most effective way to reduce the abortion rate.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/paul-ryan-planned-parenthood-obamacare/index.html

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Roseberry Ranch

Why is it then, if PP is so great, why did they tell my daughter that she could NOT get a Mammogram, or Pap smear because it isn't on their list of services, Just what do they do besides suck babies our of women's wombs ?

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momj47(7A)

Why is it then, if PP is so great, why did they tell my daughter that she could NOT get a Mammogram, or Pap smear

What did they say when you asked them why?

How old is she? Was it an appropriate request. I'm suspecting an ulterior motive,

And, so, therefore, we should close all Planned Parenthood clinics because your daughter couldn't get a pap smear or mammogram.

suck babies our of women's wombs

Do you know what an abortion is?

Do you know what a baby is?

A baby is a very young child, especially one newly or recently born.

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chase_gw

Why was your daughter looking to PP for those services ?

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SandyC.

PP provides health care to men and wome, cancer screening, breast exams, std screening, birth control.

3% of the services are abortions, 97% is for women and men health. 84% under 20 years old.

No federal funding is used for abortions!

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purrmichigan(5)

My post shows a graphic of what PP does, how they get paid for those services the government reimburses. Not abortion.

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Zeus

There are MANY reasons to not want to ensure women have access to health care, and health care concerning sexuality in particular.

That said, defunding PP will not save anyone money and it will not decrease the number of abortions. News flash - when unintended pregnancy rates increase - SO DOES THE RATE OF ABORTION (crazy...I know...)

While one can argue whether or not it is the role of gov't to be involved in family planning. Gov't costs increase when unintended pregnancies increase. Contraception is cheaper than pregnant woman and babies.

In addition - there are more cost savings when woman have access to health care:

  • Woman with fewer children 1) can go to school and work more and thus spend more and pay more taxes and 2) don't require as much assistance or social services
  • States can/will still fund PP (see the first two bullets to understand why)
  • In 2011, Texas cut access to birth control
  • In 2012, Texas law makers suddenly realized less access to birth control resulted in A LOT of unintended pregnancies.
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Roseberry Ranch

Why was your daughter looking to PP for those services ?

Because she needed the services and was told by a co-worker that they provided health services for men and women. Apparently her co-worker was mistaken.

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Zeus

Which PP?

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SandyC.

Look out for the next women's movement! No rich white,so called Christian men are going to take services away from poor women and minorities,In many counties in the Deep South in red states, 21% of counties only have PP as the ONLY women's health care. Through Medicaid poor women receive funding for services, but not abortions. If PP is defunded there will be no services available, in there will be an increase in cancer, pregnancies, stds, and undiagnosed illnesses. How misogynistic and backwards can the GOP be? Bite off you nose to spite your face!

I have many friends who work and volunteer at PP. It is a vital part of many communities for women's and families health.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I believe that not every location offers all services.

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SandyC.
They do :)
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Roseberry Ranch

Which PP?

What difference does that make ? It was PP and she was told they don't provide those services,.


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SandyC.
Do you know this is the reason the GOP shut down the government a few years ago. More right wing propaganda. No abortions are federally funded! Just discrimination, racism, sexism that the new GOP ( white nationalists) spew.
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Zeus

PSA -- PP does not offer mammograms.

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momj47(7A)

Many sites make referrals to local physicians or clinics for some services.

Actually, mammograms are not performed at the clinics; Planned Parenthood doctors and nurses conduct breast exams and refer patients to other facilities for mammograms. Individual clinics sometimes provide more than referrals, arranging for mobile mammography vans.

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SandyC.
The right wing, religious zealots are the worst of the worst. Such hate and bigotry towards poor women, with this non issue of abortions that we don't fund.
But the same party want to take away entitlements, affordable health care, food stamps and such for poor women and CHILDREN!
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SandyC.
Most young women seeking services at PP would not require a mammogram. Breast exams would be done, and if X-rays were needed for cancer screening, they may be sent to an X-ray clinic.
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SandyC.
Sorry mom, just saw your post :)
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Zeus

"Which PP?

What difference does that make ? It was PP and she was told they don't provide those services,."

It makes a difference because I doubt your daughter's claim.

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SandyC.
An 18 year old or 20 year old college student doesn't need a mammogram routinely. They need general health exams, sex education, birth control services, std screening and cancer screening.
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azmom

I found the following information listed various services and statistics that Planned Parenthood provided.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/f/What-Does-Planned-Parenthood-Do-What-Are-Their-Services-Do-They-Do-Mammograms.htm. The article was updated August 04, 2015.

Question: What does Planned Parenthood do? What are their services? Do they do mammograms?

Although the name Planned Parenthood clearly states the primary objective of the organization -- responsible family planning -- it has been inaccurately portrayed by opponents such as Arizona Senator Jon Kyl who famously announced on the Senate floor on April 8, 2011 that providing abortions is "well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does." (Hours later, Kyle's office made it clear the senator's comment "was not intended to be a factual statement.") The senator had good reason to back down from his misrepresentation. Only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services are abortion services. The other 97% includes testing and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases, contraception, cancer screening and prevention, and pregnancy testing and prenatal services.

Answer: Below is a breakdown of all patient care services* provided by Planned Parenthood affiliate health centers in 2010:

33.5% - Contraception (including reversible and permanent)38% - Testing of and treatment for Sexually Transmitted Diseases/Infections (STDs/STIs)
In 2010, Planned Parenthood provided a total of 4,179, 053 services which encompassed:

  • STI tests for women and men -3,552,955
  • Genital warts (HPV) treatments - 51, 197
  • HIV tests for women and men - 574,901

In 2010, Planned Parenthood provided a total of 3,685,437 services which encompassed:

  • Reversible contraception for women** - 2,219,726
  • Emergency contraception kits - 1,461,816
  • Vasectomy patients - 3, 290
  • Female sterilization procedures - 605

14.5% - Cancer screening and prevention
In 2010, Planned Parenthood provided a total of 1,596,741 services which encompassed:

  • Pap tests -769,769
  • Breast Exams and Breast Care - 747,607
  • Colposcopy procedures (for diagnosis of abnormal growth cells in the cervix) - 41,549
  • LOOP/LEEP procedures (treatment for abnormal growths) - 2,432
  • Cryotherapy procedures (treatment for abnormal growths - 1,254

Planned Parenthood does not offer mammograms at any of their affiliate health centers but will refer clients to other local providers who do.

10.4% - Other women's health services
In 2010, Planned Parenthood provided a total of 1,144,558 services which encompassed:

  • Pregnancy tests -1,113,460
  • Prenatal services - 31,098

3% - Abortion services
In 2010, Planned Parenthood conducted a total of 329, 445 abortion procedures.

0.6% - Other health services
In 2010, Planned Parenthood provided a total of 68,132 services which encompassed:

  • Family practice services for women and men - 35, 062
  • Adoption referrals to other agencies - 841
  • Other procedures for women and men (which include WIC services -- a federally funded nutrition program for low-income women, infants, and children up to the age of five -- as well as pediatric care and immunizations) - 32,229

-----

* As defined by Planned Parenthood, "A service is a discrete clinical interaction, such as the administration of a physical exam or STI test or the provision of a birth control method." In 2010, Planned Parenthood health centers saw approximately three million patients. Collectively, they received nearly 11 million services during nearly five million clinical visits.

** Reversible contraceptive methods chosen by Planned Parenthood clients in 2010:

  • Oral - 39.5%
  • Non-prescription barrier - 17.8%
  • No Method - 11.9%
  • Progestin-only Injectables - 9.4%
  • Other/Unknown - 8.4%
  • Combined Hormone Ring - 5.7%
  • IUD - 4.1%
  • Combined Hormone Patch - 2.3%
  • Contraceptive Implant - 0.7%
  • Prescription Barrier - 0.1%
  • Fertility Awareness-based Methods - 0.1%
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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

I have never been to an ob/gyn office that performed mammograms. My docs always referred me to a specialized mammogram place. Now, my doctor is with a large teaching hospital, so I just have to walk to a different wing. I did have Pap tests at a PP clinic back in the 70s when I couldn't afford a private doctor. I would probably redirect my anger, Roseberry. I agree that we are probably missing some details about your daughter's story that make it sound a bit questionable. I suspect that PP gave her more of an explanation than just saying they didn't provide the services.

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azmom

Roseberry,

As the mother, why did not you check out the service PP provides and share it with your daughter, instead, you let your daughter find out on her own, and then blamed her coworker?

cati1,

How about move the money spent on protecting New York Trump Tower to poor women's health care?

Sorry, I forgot that you may not have any say about how we spend our tax money, as you are not one of us who are paying Taxes.

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momj47(7A)

You do understand, Roseberry, that once Planned Parenthood is defunded, your daughter won't have anyplace to go to get these services, especially if she doesn't have health insurance.

Because your RWNJ "lawmakers" are defunding health insurance, too.

Maybe the dentist can do a pap smear, or the optician can refer her for a mammogram. Like they do in Louisiana and Florida

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Roseberry Ranch

As the mother, why did not you check out the service PP provides and share it with your daughter, instead, you let your daughter find out on her own, and then blamed her coworker?

She is a grown up, and as such not subject to asking my permission as to where she should obtain her health care, especially since she lived in another state. Her co-worker volunteered the info when she was asked, but was wrong in her recommendation, Have you never been wrong about anything? Nah, probably not since you probably ever make mistakes ever.


How about move the money spent on protecting New York Trump Tower to poor women's health care?

Fine with me. Especially teaching them how to eat heathy, nutritious food on a small budget and do all in their own power to remain as active as they are able as well and how to use contraceptives properly so they went be going to have an unwanted baby or having an innocent baby sucked or cut out of their wombs.

I wonder, do you volunteer to educate some of those women in learning those basic life skills? Do you give to and volunteer in a local food bank? Do you drive some of them to clinics to receive necessary basic health care? Are you willing to spend your own money to pay for med, utilities or rent for someone that is down on their luck? Do you take anyone into your home to get them out of a dangerous environment? Do you ever randomly give out food gift cards and "necessary" packets to a homeless person you may come across? Mind you, I am not saying you do or don't do things to help folks, but don't be so quick to judge someone you know absolutely nothing about.

Sorry, I forgot that you may not have any say about how we spend our tax money, as you are not one of us who are paying Taxes.

Since you think you know everything about everyone, it gives me great pleasure to let you know, I do pay taxes, always have paid taxes, and as such feel that I should have a voice, albeit a small voice in how that money is spent.

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Zeus

Rose - we are all super glad you pay taxes.

"Sorry, I forgot that you may not have any say about how we spend our tax money, as you are not one of us who are paying Taxes." was directed at Cati1.

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cait1

Roseberry Ranch, can you please edit your 3:38PM post and REMOVE my name from it. I had nothing to do with that ridiculous quote that follows.

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practigal

Grown men have worked for years to ensure women get pregnant and stay pregnant and they don't care that you can't afford a child or that you and the children you have already will suffer....they don't care....they don't care...they don't care...

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patriciae_gw(07)

Roseberry, this is what you said

" Why is it then, if PP is so great, why did they tell my daughter that she could NOT get a Mammogram, or Pap smear because it isn't on their list of services, Just what do they do besides suck babies our of women's wombs ?"

This is not a nice or even handed thing to say about PP. You seem to blame PP for the misinformation she got from someone else and then end up with a great wack of misinformation your self in that you appear to believe that PP is mostly there to provide abortion services which they are not. Abortion services are normally provided in very remote areas because there is no place to refer clients.

Different clinics do provide different services. I am astonished she couldn't get a pelvic exam though. Are you sure your daughters story was accurate? Just like doctors offices they do referrals for services that require dedicated expensive equipment like Mammograms and of course they mostly refer abortions. An abortion is still a woman's legal choice. Without PP there would be a whole lot more of them.

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SandyC.
Grown so called " Christian" men. Not Christian in my world.
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purrmichigan(5)

Btw, there is a rally for PP in MI on the 15th. Bernie, Chuck Schumer, MI Senators will be there. PP isn't going down w/o a very big fight.

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Roseberry Ranch

Are you sure your daughters story was accurate?

Please explain what you mean exactly.

SandyC., would you kindly describe to us what precisely is a Christian in your world, and / or what you believe a Christian should be?

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azmom

Roseberry,

I never said I have never made any mistakes, admittedly, I have made plenty in my life. Yet in this thread, you made at least two mistakes:

1. Please re-read my posting closely.

Do you notice "cait1"? all the statements following that name are direct toward cait1, instead of you.

As cait1 lives in Australia, but has always been very generous with our tax money including wasting it on protecting Trump Tower in NYC. Same as providing his/her questionable or worthless opinions on the subjects impacting American residents.

2, You should have checked services provided by Plan Parenthood before you made these horrible statements "Why is it then, if PP is so great, why did they tell my daughter that she could NOT get a Mammogram, or Pap smear because it isn't on their list of services, Just what do they do besides suck babies our of women's wombs ?"

I have posted a list of various services PP provides to both women and men. I have compared the list with the one PP published, therefore I believe the list is quite comprehensive. Many forum members also provided explanations of the work PP does. You may want to read those to have a better understanding of PP's mission. Hopefully, it would change your misconceptions.

By mis-read my comments, you questioned me with a group of good deeds, I assume you have done some or all of them, regardless, it is very commendable.

In the last 25 plus years, I have made donations and worked numerous volunteer hours in the areas of education, STEM fields, hospitals, art and cultural events, and conferences of International companies in helping students, young professionals, foreigner visitors and graduate students, and domestic & international businesses. No, I have not done any of these you listed, because I have different focus to share my time and resource.

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purrmichigan(5)

Oops, I thought those questions were aimed at cait1. Sorry for the above azmom.

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SandyC.

Christian=opposite of Trump, Pence, Flynn, Bannon and the rest of the white supremacist, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, liars, authoritarian, far right, puppet of a KGB agent, liar, propagandist.

A Christian is one who believes all people are created equal, and does not run a presidential campaign based on racist, xenophobic rhetoric.

A Christian does not blame immigrants for our country's economic problems

A Christian does not threaten to lock up his opposition, based on fake news and lies, that he repeated through tweets and media.

A Christian does not threaten to ban an entire religious group of people and create a registry.

A Christian does not dictate what a woman can do with her body!

A Christian does not discriminate and stop needle exchange programs for HIV patients.

A Christian does not pull out essential health care services for poor women and children by defunding the only low income health care services in many of our poorest counties.

A Christian does not propagandize undocumented workers, threatening families and young children with deportation.

A Christian does not have a campaign promise of repealing our affordable insurance health plan, leaving millions of children, disabled and elderly with no insurance.

Basically think of Trump, then think of the exact opposite, a deeply intelligent, loving, compassionate, person, who puts his country and its citizens, (not just the minority that voted for him,)and its national security above a Russian authoritarian, billionaire bankers, and white supremacist racists, and Christian hipocrites.


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azmom

Pure, no problem.

Glad the posting gave us a chance to understand many good deeds Roseberry has carried out for the needy. It is very admirable if they are true.

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SandyC.
A Christian is not a self centered, man child, more worried about his presidential legitimacy than our own election being influenced by a foreign enemy. The whole world is watching in despair, thinking what the h_ ll has our country done. First Brexit, then Eastern Europe, now us. Putin and his gang are celebrating! Trump not trusting his own national security, what could be better!
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elvis

SandyC., would you kindly describe to us what precisely is a Christian in your world, and / or what you believe a Christian should be?

SandyC.

A Christian is not a self centered, man child, more worried about his presidential legitimacy than our own election being influenced by a foreign enemy. The whole world is watching in despair, thinking what the h_ ll has our country done. First Brexit, then Eastern Europe, now us. Putin and his gang are celebrating! Trump not trusting his own national security, what could be better!

That's your answer to RBR's question? Very poor.

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Roseberry Ranch

SandyC, you didn't answer my question. I asked what you believe a Christian is, NOT what a Christian isn't. What part of my inquiry didn't you understand? Politics aside, I am curious as to what you believe it takes to be a Christian.

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SandyC.
Not getting into a religious discussion. I am allowed to have my beliefs, you are allowed yours, just as Jews, Muslims and everybody else are, just don't force your beliefs on anybody else. We have a separation of church and state.
My one belief is everybody is equal and should not be marginalized and discriminated against, as Mr Trump plans to do with his various proposals.Not that they all will most likely pass, but he will lie his way through to make himself look good, to his faithful supporters.
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practigal

Roseberry you have hit on exactly what the problem is with modern-day Christianity. At the moment "Christians" are frequently people who say that they "have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior" and so long as they keep saying that they seem to feel perfectly justified in doing any evil thing that they want because they have been "saved" and "their sins will be forgiven" and they will go to heaven no matter what they do. It's a really an odd notion of Christianity. It doesn't correspond to anything that I ever understood about the Christianity that I was grew up with as back then I did not equate Christianity with hypocrisy as I do to today.

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SandyC.
Everybody is free to believe whatever they want, it's a free country( for now). Just don't force your narrow minded, often bigoted, often judgmental, views on anybody else.
Mike Pence is the devil himself, with that calm demeanor and soft voice, he plans on taking away basic health care for poor women and children, next will be our LGBT community which he considers a " sin". The Republican Party has attracted the evangelicals and other extreme right wing groups, like the white nationals/ supremacists. They pander to their base to get enough votes & ran a campaign based on extreme right wing ideals and biases. Where are the centrist republicans? My dad was a conservative, but never, ever would he believe in forcing his religious views on anyone. He was an open minded , accepting man, not a bigoted, racist, xenophobe, like the president elect.
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heri_cles

Especially teaching them how to eat heathy, nutritious food on a small
budget and do all in their own power to remain as active as they are
able as well and how to use contraceptives properly so they went be
going to have an unwanted baby or having an innocent baby sucked or cut
out of their wombs.

Eating healthy nutritious foods and remaining active is not a guarantee against medically necessary D and C or abortions where babies are "sucked out of the womb." And where is the budget to teach women in low income areas about nutrition, to provide prenatal screening/exams, and to help new mothers who will not be able to financially make it after they give birth? Is that part of another repeal and replace plan once they defund planned parenthood?

Personal responsibility is Right Wing ideology that frequently strikes me as either arrogant, ignorant or both.

Politics aside, I am curious as to what you believe it takes to be a Christian.

Sandy C answered:

Everybody is free to believe whatever they want, it's a free country(
for now). Just don't force your narrow minded, often bigoted, often
judgmental, views on anybody else. Mike Pence is the devil himself,
with that calm demeanor and soft voice, he plans on taking away basic
health care for poor women and children, next will be our LGBT community
which he considers a " sin". The Republican Party has attracted the
evangelicals and other extreme right wing groups, like the white
nationals/ supremacists.

I concur. I am tired of the Right Wing claiming to have a monopoly on morality, Christianity, or patriotism. All too often they prove to be nothing more than bloviating, self-righteous, hypocrites.

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heri_cles

Christians who voted for Trump should be ashamed of themselves but if they aren't, they probably will be once they are a few years removed from this and their reflexive support for anything with a Republican label on it. To paraphrase Jesus, forgive them for they know not what they do, or as I might say, I can't frikking believe how many women voted for this guy.

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SandyC.
But, he's a billionaire businessman. He's so successful......he's going to solve all our problems, by building a frigging wall and cutting health insurance for millions of kids and disabled! Where are people's morals?
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momj47(7A)

Christians who voted for Trump should be ashamed of themselves

But, of course, they aren't

They are so easily led, and Trump and the wingnut "leaders" of the debauched "Republican" party know this.

They have aligned themselves with the so-called "prosperity gospel" that underlies so much of the fundamentalist and evangelical 'christianity" these days.

It's an insular, exclusionary, intolerant, unjust, sexist heresy, and it's certainly replacing Jesus actual message in American "christianity".

And it's in complete opposition to a democratic civil society.

I fear, it will destroy American constitutional democracy in this century.

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Nothing Left to Say

I do think politics has warped religion or religion has warped politics in this country.


I have attended very liberal churches. For example, the pastor who baptized my oldest refused to do the civil paper work for marriages until he could do so for the gay couples he married just as he could for the straight couples he married. He participated in many protests on that issue.


I always flinch at bit at media portrayals of Christian voters as right wing extremists. I'm not sure how we got from the liberal churches of the 1960s, including the black churches, supporting civil rights to the political landscape of today.


I suppose both conservative and liberal churches have always existed and for various reasons conservative churches are now in political ascendance. Anyone have a book recommendation on this topic? I should educate myself.

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azmom

I think Sandy gave good answer given the original question was poorly stated, which leaves room to grade any answer as 'Correct', or 'Wrong'.

Roseberry,

You should make your question more specific, and to the point. A few examples:

What is the definition of "Christians"? What religions fit into your definition?

Do you ask based on personal belief, or it has to be associated with political implication?

Do you only limit the discussions to voters whose religions fit into your definition of "Christians"? How about other votes who have different religious than your so called "Christians"?

Or Do you include a person lives in the USA, who is citizens, or anyone living on this earth?

I doubt Sandy has the time to write a Shakespeare in order to guess your mind.

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Oaktown

crl_, if you find good reading material please share recommendations. Personally I find that views on this forum are often quite different from those I see in every day life, which is a good part of what makes this forum interesting. What do you think of as a "conservative church" vs a "liberal church"?

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petalique

Some thoughts in no particular order.

Some reasons women voted for trump? Anti-HRC; disinterested or threatened by women's equal rights; pathetically uninformed (while confident that they are; and for a lot of the same distorted "thinking" or rationale that caused male voters to go for Trump the Fraudster.

Unwanted pregnancies have been statistically associated with an increase in crime. Trump and some RW's want to expand the prison-industrial complex.

For the US to increase productivity (to approach 4% annually), more work has to be done per employee or through automation; or more people must be in the labor force. If we're not going to invite more immigrants, we'll have to grow more of our on (not an immediate remedy).

What bothell and others have already stated.

(I hope we American women won't have to begin wearing that blue Taliban-mandated cloth prison garb (burka) and stop reading books.)

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ann_t

A true Christian, not just one that pays lip service to being one, would never have voted for the likes of Donald Trump.

And as for Roseberry, I discount just about everything she says. Including the story about her daughter.

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Nothing Left to Say

crl_, if you find good reading material please share recommendations. Personally I find that views on this forum are often quite different from those I see in every day life, which is a good part of what makes this forum interesting. What do you think of as a "conservative church" vs a "liberal church"?


Definitional questions are always interesting and I'm not sure I have a good answer. I guess I would think of conservative churches as those that tend to focus heavily on pro-life issues, those that exclude women from positions of authority, those that insist gay people are going to hell. And I would think of liberal churches as those that focus on being inclusive and focus on social justice issues. But that's pretty off the cuff. If I find a good book on religion and politics in recent American history, I will post the title.

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Roseberry Ranch

SandyC.

Not getting into a religious discussion

Then perhaps you should not have brought it up.

"Christians" are frequently people who say that they "have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior" and so long as they keep saying that they seem to feel perfectly justified in doing any evil thing that they want because they have been "saved" and "their sins will be forgiven" and they will go to heaven no matter what they do.

Sadly, that is true, but not true of folks that are "Saved". Unfortunately, there are millions of so called Christians use Christianity as "fire insurance', and a license to do what they wish with NO consequences in the end. However,, although nobody truly knows the heart of another unless that person makes it abundantly clear, ( advocate murder or that which is an abomination to God ), so we should reserve judgement as that it our Creator's job, not ours.

Eating healthy nutritious foods and remaining active is not a guarantee against medically necessary D and C or abortions where babies are "sucked out of the womb." And where is the budget to teach women in low income areas about nutrition, to provide prenatal screening/exams, and to help new mothers who will not be able to financially make it after they give birth? Is that part of another repeal and replace plan once they defund planned parenthood?

Here's a concept, perhaps you never thought of. Volunteering to teach a class on how to budget, cook healthier, less costly meals to welfare recipients. What is wrong with you and some of your friends making a small space in your home to welcome a scared, pregnant woman into your home, and help her learn a skill that will help her find gainful employment?

Christians who voted for Trump should be ashamed of themselves but if they aren't, they probably will be once they are a few years removed from this and their reflexive support for anything with a Republican label on it. To paraphrase Jesus, forgive them for they know not what they do, or as I might say, I can't frikking believe how many women voted for this guy.

To vote for Trump's opponent would have been a vote for evil incarnate, in my opinion. She was only a paid shill of Soros. and a third term for what we see as a failed presidency. She promised to raise taxes for the middle class, cut our armed forces to an even more miniscule level, and cut military and DAV pensions to the bone, just for starters. Us right wingers believe that she would have continued to sell her position to the highest bidder and allow foreign countries to hack her severs, putting ur entire country in jeopardy.. I, for one didn't want to see her sell the Oval Office to a foreign entity that wanted to murder infidels. That incudes everyone that is NOT Islamic. We KNEW we would be major KIMSHI with her, but we preferred to gamble on the fellow that made it obvious that he puts America ahead of Obama's pet JV team whom she would welcome with open arms and open borders by the millions, as long as she didn't have to live near them herself.

We were tired of the continual lies, and absolute stupidity that is in DC, and yes, that is on both sides of the aisle.


They have aligned themselves with the so-called "prosperity gospel" that underlies so much of the fundamentalist and evangelical 'christianity" these days.

Nobody I know has aligned themselves with "prosperity gospel', as we cannot find where it is biblical in any way, but rather a scam to become wealthy at the expense of gullible followers that are willing to hand over their life savings so said Evangelist can purchase a new Infinity for his wife. (Remember Jim Jones anyone ?)

It's an insular, exclusionary, intolerant, unjust, sexist heresy, and it's certainly replacing Jesus actual message in American "christianity".

Agreed. I, and every other God loving Christian I know feel the same way.

So, my friends, if you don't wish to open a discussion about what Christians are or are not, then I suggest you not bring it up. Problem solved.

Glad the posting gave us a chance to understand many good deeds Roseberry has carried out for the needy. It is very admirable.

I didn't list those things for "attaboys. 'I never said I did all those things, although it's possible that I have and do. As I said in another post, I do not boast of what I do. I am not here to try to impress anyone with my "goodness". If you go back and actually read what I wrote, and read it in context, I said that the $$ that would be spent at TT might HELP to accomplish some of helping people educate themselves regarding nutrition, exercise, and learning job skills. Helping people out of poverty begins with those of us that talk the talk. We need to be willing to get down there and put our money where our mouth is and help get folks off of the welfare rolls. How about beginning right in our own communities? Throwing money at a problem hasn't helped, but the left keeps insisting on throwing even more money and bringing in even more welfare recipients, many of whom wish to kill us infidels, for the rest of us to support. It hasn't worked, and to continue doing what has never worked, still won't work now or ever. Don't you see now why Hilliary lost? She is solely responsible for her loss. Nobody else !

My coffee is awaiting, so carry on. Yeah, I just now got up. Love it !!



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Roseberry Ranch

Ann T, Truth be known, you are not important enough in my life for me to give even one little whit what you think of me or my daughter. You know absolutely nothing about either one of us, so your dim witted opinion means nothing to me.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Roseberry, I was not implying your daughter (who I prefer to believe in) was lying about her PP experience but I do think perhaps she misunderstood what she was told there. Since the average clinic exists to provide just that sort of service in addition to screenings for VD and of course birth control information and products I wonder that she found one somehow that didn't provide this very simple service. Way back when I was in college I remember there were clinics that just tested for VD and gave out birth control but that was forty years ago. Your addition of total misinformation on abortions makes me wonder you see.

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elvis

Since the average clinic exists to provide just that sort of service in addition to screenings for VD and of course birth control information and products I wonder that she found one somehow that didn't provide this very simple service

Obviously not all the clinics are identical. No surprise there.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Anyone have a book recommendation on this topic? I should educate myself."

Yes, the Bible.

The scriptures explain Christianity. They give the doctrine in its entirety. Since Christianity is actually a continuance of all God's works, both the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures are applicable. However, to begin, and to get an answer to the question you outlined, start with the Christian Greek Scriptures.

As you read, you will see areas where individual 'Churches' may not be following the Christian doctrine. You will also see where entire 'denominations' 'miss the mark'. You will also find that many scriptures raise questions about their meaning. The Bible teaches in much the same way life teaches... what you don't understand in the beginning, will become clearer as you continue.

Other answers come by reflection, and still others come through the help of other people.

If you are attentive, you will be given the explanations for why some people who consider themselves Christians are different from others.

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jodik_gw

"If old rich white men could get pregnant this would be a totally different headline."

If men could get pregnant, there would be a PP and an abortion clinic on every corner in every town in the country!

By all means, I say sarcastically, let's go back to a time of coat hanger abortions where women died as a result. Let's take what is a legal and safe medical procedure and send it back underground where safety is not a concern.

~~~

This IS a war on women! Plain and simple! For some unknown reason they are scared of power when it's in female hands.

~~~

It is well known that Republicans are not known for their ability to look beyond right now. The future is not a concern to them... whether it has to do with this issue, or others such as Global Warming, pollution, dirty energy, etc... the uppermost thought in their minds is - 'how can we funnel more money into our own pockets?'.

~~~

In their minds, abstinence will solve everything... and if it doesn't, they don't care. Too many of them take cherry-picked old testament pieces to heart, where women are property and don't matter.

They don't want to see statistics and facts...

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Roseberry Ranch

Patricia, I do now realize that PP clinics in our area do provide a lot of amazing services, and/or recommendations. ( I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday (that not only is my doctor, but one of our Sate Senators) Although, I am personally against abortion as a measure of birth control, I understand the necessity of terminating a pregnancy in extreme cases. (Tobey's ex-wife had an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy) BUT, since abortion is a major invasive surgical procedure, it should be regulated the same as other major surgeries. However in too many PP clinics, this appears to not be the case.

Let me share something a little bit that is personal with you here. My daughter went through a "I know everything " and rebellious period in her life. Those of us who were over 30 were old "fuddie duddies" and just could not understand, so she went her way for awhile. She found herself deep in debt on a couple of occasions, with little formal education to fall back on. I quit trying to advise her, but I always left the light on for her along with an open door. After filing bankruptcy for the second time, she decided to come home. A lot of young folks go through that rebellious stage, and sadly so many will not go home, and even sadder, the parents don't want them to.

Suffice it to say, she was out on her own trying to make her own way, She came home when she found she could not afford the lifestyle she had grown up living. She tried to borrow her way to prosperity, and it didn't work. It never does but so may cannot see that.

Tobey has breakfast ready. Carry on.

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Maddie AtHome




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Ann

Oh, how I hope government funding of PP ends. I like the earlier idea (Cait's, I think) about the citizens that believe in it, funding it, if they so choose to.

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Ann

One can discuss other services they do or don't provide at various locations, but they perform over 300,000 abortions per year, making them the country's largest abortion provider. I hope the discussion won't flippantly dismiss that statistic.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

PP USES NO FEDERAL FUNDS FOR ABORTION SERVICES.

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SandyC.
"56-Million Voters Handed the Koch and Religious Right Control Over America"Politicus USA
As far as what to read about the rise of the right and evangelical "christians", try to get your hands in any of the recent books on the Koch Brothers and dark money. . Mitch McConnell has been in bed with the billionaires and it has been an orchestrated coup to take over all three branches of government. Even though the Koch brothers hate Trump, Pence is a heartbeat away.
According to the center for responsive politics, Wall St was the number one contributor to his campaign from 2009-2014.
The Koch brothers finance just about every right wing think tank out there. McConnell has said the passing of McCain-Feingold (the bill that bans soft money and unlimited donations to a party committee)was the worst day of his political life.
He is heard on tape at a Koch Bros Billionaire conference in San Diego saying "to contribute to Citizens United and Americans for prosperity, or something else, a variety of ways to push back against the party of government."
The Koch Bros have orchestrated a way for Wall St and their candidate of choice to come in and dismantle all regulations, EPA standards, health care, minimum wage reform, and every other piece of legislation that has held the billionaire bankers back.
As far as the Christian Right joining in, it is a way to gather more votes, because the 1% are not a majority, LOL and they need other fringe groups like the alt right & evangelicals to join. Paul Ryan, Pence appeal to the "christians" for the ever ending fight of roe v wade, but as far as the dark money billionaires I have no idea. The right dark money, also did a great job vilifying Hillary, and unfortunately the poor saps bought it.
Now we are looking at the next four years of deregulation and Wall St. raping and pillaging our country.
Anybody read The NY Times today? , An expose of Jarod Kushner's ties to China, Russia and just about every other foreign government. Now Kushner has been instrumental in placing the people in power, and responsible for over site of Wall St .
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chase_gw

Ann, not sure your number is correct but that it's not the point. Abortion funding is not the funding that your govrrnment is pulling. PP 's funding is in large part to provide birth control . Isn't birth control the best way to prevent abortions ? Why take away money that works to prevent unwanted pregnancies and therfore reduce abortions? Makes no sense. This action will increase the numbers of abortion. ......is that your goal ?

Hospitals perform the majority of abortions..........should you pull funding from them too ?

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Zeus

Ann - if PP were to stop offering abortion services, what do you think will happen?

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jodik_gw

Well, well... look at that, will you...

Thank you, Maddie, for your due diligence.

~~~

If Roseberry doesn't have children, as she clearly states in a post on December 1st of 2016, what is she even talking about?

I wouldn't think Planned Parenthood services pets...

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Ann

This part is just my opinion, but I think far, far, far fewer lives of people will be lost if PP is defunded by government.

As far as PP performing over 300,000 abortions per year, I could cite so many sources of that info (all left wing if you wanted). Don't bother being "not sure" about that Chase.

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chase_gw

Maddie, you never cease to amaze me .....great catch.

Rosemary is lying on one post or the other....likely this one. Matters not she lied ,credibility gone

....now let's talk about the attributes of a Christian again ....

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Maddie AtHome

Thanks Chase!

Tall tales, make them up as they go. Gotta love it.

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chase_gw

Ann, number right or wrong , is not the issue.

You ignored everything else I posted. Removing funding for birth control will increase unwanted pregnancies....how does that help reduce abortions ?

What about hospitals that preform abortions ,should their funding be removed ?

How do you think removing funding for birth control will save lives? It will increase unwanted pregnancies , lead to more abortions and less safe abortions which will cause more lost life,

ETA : Given you value life as much as you do, what is you opinion on capital punishment?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Oh my, Maddie.

How appropriate to post the December comments after a discourse on Christian virtues.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ann, since PP receives no federal funding for abortion services, you do realize that contraception services will suffer from elimination of funding.

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ann_t

Like I said above, I discount just about everything Rosemary says.

If she is going to lie she should at least keep her story straight.

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Ann

Nightowl, I think many, many more babies will survive. I also think many people waiting for years to adopt will wait far less time to become loving parents. I have a family member (a white female who is married to another white female). They very much wanted to adopt and waited for several years after successfully completing their application. Finally, after waiting so long, a black birth mother selected them. They are now a very happy family with a beautiful baby girl who is about ready to walk. Seeing pictures on social media often (they live in a different state than I do), it's a joy to see this little girl thrive in the loving home they've provided. The birth mother doesn't want any communication or time with the adoptive parents or the child. The outcome has been great for all 4 lives involved. No abortion was necessary.

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Ann

I think contraception (for example, the pill) can and should be provided very inexpensively or free and that can be designed to happen independent of PP.

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Zeus

So...You want more baby makers to provide for those without kids? Wow!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Planned Parenthood is currently the major nationwide source for affordable contraceptives. Closing that source without an existing alternative is just plain stupid.

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Ann

I can't even believe you just said that nightowl. I think the adoptive parents are providing a wonderful avenue for the "baby makers" that in most case, were acting irresponsibly and suddenly have the responsibility of another human's life.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Nightowl, the future looks like a racialized Handmaid's Tale.

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jodik_gw

It does seem to be a pattern, doesn't it, Nancy?

We hear all this talk from the right of family values and christian virtues... and lo and behold, none of it holds any water.

Hypocrisy at its height.

At this point, it doesn't matter which post is truth or lie... as Chase said, all credibility is now gone.

~~~

To put a cap on part of another post...

Killing babies is murder. It's infanticide. We don't do that. We don't condone that. And Planned Parenthood has no part in anything like that.

Abortion has nothing to do with babies. It has to do with zygotes, embryos, teeny-tiny masses of cells that do not even resemble what they may or may not turn out to be.

Abortion is a very personal choice. It is not a requirement. If you are against abortion, do not have one. It's really that simple.

But no one person has the right to force their brand of morality on anyone else.

~~~

Planned Parenthood offers a plethora of health care to both males and females. And as Nancy and others have said over and over, NO FEDERAL FUNDS ARE USED BY PP FOR ABORTION.

It couldn't be clearer!

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Ann

Chase, I'm terribly torn on the subject of capital punishment. Both the thought of capital punishment and the thought of the brutality of the crimes that lead to it are topics that kind of put up a wall in my thinking. If I'm completely honest, I have to admit I don't have a clear opinion on the topic. Anything to do with it on a ballot is an item I have to skip due to my lack of ability to reach a decision I'm comfortable with.

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Ann

Regardless of how the financial books of PP are structured and how they say their government and private funds are distributed, the existence of PP makes it very easy for a person to make a very important decision too quickly and without careful thought - over 300,000 of those decisions are made each year. PP is an easy "out" to what may seem like an inconvenient pregnancy. If a person is young and afraid, 9 months of a pregnancy might seem like forever. In reality, it's typically just a little blip of time in a woman's life. If PP didn't provide abortions but did provide adoption services, I'd think it was a wonderful organization.

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jillinnj

Whao, maddie! You are amazing.

One should always trust their instincts. Roseberry's story just didn't sound right. Keep on reading and viola! Maddie confirms that it's a lie.

That post was only just over a month ago! Pretty stupid to not even remember what one said a month ago.

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jillinnj

At the moment "Christians" are frequently people who say that they "have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior" and so long as they keep saying that they seem to feel perfectly justified in doing any evil thing that they want because they have been "saved" and "their sins will be forgiven" and they will go to heaven no matter what they do.

Yep, we even have a poster here who loves to make the same claim - searching for their savior while they passively aggressively attack people they don't agree with and add an LOL, and all is good. For their sake, I hope their beliefs in heaven and hell are nonsense. If they're true, they will be in for a very big surprise.

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jillinnj

The GOTP "lawmakers" must be some of the stupidest people on the face of the earth.

Along with those that vote for them.

People that yell and scream about abortion and at the same time want to defund PP make no sense. Defunding PP will do nothing but hurt poor woman and increase the numbers of unwanted pregnancies. You have to be some kind of stupid to not understand that.

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chase_gw

"I think contraception (for example, the pill) can and should be provided very inexpensively or free and that can be designed to happen independent of PP."

But it's not and never will be with Republican majority. The two avenues for affordable, free birth control,tge ACA and PP are being shut down. This will mad to more unwashed pregnant and more abortions......not right and not bright.

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Zeus

Ann. The maternal death rate is 28/100000 pregnancies. The death rate of abortion is next to nil. So - you are okay essentially sentencing woman to death? And, if your reasoning is adoption, please research actual facts. For example, when forced to have a baby, most will not give it up at birth. Many of those babies end up in the social system and have a miriad of emotional problems due to the turmoil. Your lovely white friends want perfect bouncing babies.

It is very sad indeed, but many pregnant woman have severe mental health disturbances. Pregnancy increases mental health disturbances in that population. Not to mention the increased risk of birth defects caused by antipsychotics. Please research studies, real ones, on psychosis and pregnancy.


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bothell

Ann: how many of these children that you are going to force women to have are you planning to adopt? How about the ones with special needs or severe handicaps? Cause I haven't seen much of a demand for them.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ann, cutting federal funding to PP will not end their abortion services -- that funding comes from other sources.

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patriciae_gw(07)

There are at this moment in America about 100,000 children waiting for adoption. They just don't usually happen to be infants. If you want to adopt there are plenty of living breathing kids who desperately need a forever family. No one needs to create more kids so families can adopt.

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Roseberry Ranch

Oh golly gee whiz Maddie , reckon I should have added "at home". Oh such a grievous, unforgiven crime have I committed !! If I lie at your feet, and beg forgiveness with tears in my eyes, could you ever forgive me for such a terrible oversight on my part?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Reduction in PP providing general services = reduced birth control education = more unplanned pregnancies = more abortions.

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chase_gw

Roseberry, don't blame Maddie for your dishonesty . You were the one who chose to lie in order to move your personal agenda. Sorta like that guy you voted for. ...

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jodik_gw

There isn't a demand within the world of adoption for children with special needs, severe handicaps... and older children are often overlooked for adoption, as well.

In demand for adoption are healthy white babies. Let me repeat that... in demand for adoption are healthy white babies.

That leaves a whole lot of babies and other children out in the cold, forced to grow up as wards of the state. And that is far, far from being an ideal childhood.

~~~

The notion, or misconception, that women use abortion as a means of birth control is just that... a misconception. It's an anti-choice talking point. Pure propaganda.

~~~

How could anyone force a female to go through a pregnancy she didn't want, or didn't have a choice in? What about cases of rape? Incest? What if it's known that there are major health problems with the tiny fetus?

You would knowingly force that female to go through something that could be extremely damaging to her, physically or psychologically, or both... or knowingly force a child into this world that will suffer the entirety of its life?

~~~

I guess what I don't really understand is the audacity of some, who want to forcibly control the morality of others just because they don't have the same opinion.




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jodik_gw

As a footnote to my last post...

It's too late now, Roseberry... the information is already out there. Your credibility took quite a lot of buckshot.

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batyabeth

Favorite comments so far:
Us right wingers believe that she would have continued to sell her
position to the highest bidder and allow foreign countries to hack her
severs, (?????) putting ur entire country in jeopardy.. I, for one didn't want
to see her sell the Oval Office to a foreign entity that wanted to
murder infidels.(?????)

Followed by: An expose of Jarod Kushner's ties to China, Russia and just about every other foreign government.

Snort.
And then : "9 months of a pregnancy might seem like forever. In reality, it's typically just a little blip of time in a woman's life." And when the pregnancy's over? And who says unplanned unwanted pregnancies are "Usually" the result of irresponsibility?

Holy guacamole such moralizing and judgmental hogwash.


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Maddie AtHome

Exodus 20:16

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SandyC.
Ann pretends to be very naive, and is entitled to her "opinion".
It's her modus of operation. Say a cute, naive, statement, like she can't wait for Trump to take over, yippee!
SOB, she has been told on this thread and many others THERE ARE NO FUNDS GIVEN TO PP FOR ABORTIONS WHICH ENTAILS 3% of PP services. The fact is Ann has expressed the fact she does not want her taxes to go to entitlements for poor, lazy people after all she didn't get help and her children who are very successful will not take any entitlements.
I don't know why people don't care about all other clinics and hospitals that perform abortions, just PP that provides essential health care and preventative care to thousands of our young, disenfranchised portion of our society. The hypocrisy is appalling!
What will end up happening if these do called " christian" authoritarians defund, the abortion clinic will become it's own entity, be renamed and privately funded, to keep PP patients getting their other 97% of the services. Ladies get your check books out and be ready to fight for women's rights!
I feel like we have stepped back 50 years, what has this country and women who voted for a psychopath done?
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rgreen48(7a)

"I don't have an agenda."


What you are going to find is a large percentage of the members here who refuse to be objective. They will accuse you of having an agenda as a tactic to discredit. They will not accept you at face value if it furthers their interests.


They do not have the same ethical convictions. - And here's an example. If I don't qualify that sentence, they will pounce and accuse me of saying that 'they don't have ethical convictions'. Many have convictions, but their ethical standards are not based on objectivity. These ones do not believe in objective truth. Instead of areas of black and white, they see the world subjectively as grey. They will condemn, not based upon standards, but on preference.


People who don't agree are dumb, stupid, lower IQ, idiots, nut jobs, radicals, fundamentalists, etc...


Hang in there.

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chase_gw

Roseberry you lied in order to place PP in a bad light. ..that is an agenda. Period full stop.......insulting me might make you feel good but it changes nothing.


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Roseberry Ranch

I just deleted my previous comment. Why ? because it finally occurred to me that your name calling is just nothing but bait to get a rise out of me. Chase, I did not lie. But then liberals seem to be of the opinion that the untruths and name calling is just fine and dandy as long as those lies and name calling are coming from the liberal left.. Hypocritical double standards at it's shining best. Your right, insulting changes nothing, not even your insulting name calling.

Rgreen, you sure nailed I. I could not have said it an better. Thank you. It's their 'pack entality" that I find distressing. Sad lot at best to be so close minded.

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jillinnj

Ann, cutting federal funding to PP will not end their abortion services -- that funding comes from other sources.

This is what people don't understand. Defunding PP will turn them into a place that only does abortions since 100% of the money for abortions comes from private donations.

So, let me say this very slowly for those that don't seem to understand...

DEFUNDING PLANNED PARENTHOOD WILL TURN THEM INTO AN ABORTION ONLY CLINIC

and hurt millions of poor woman who will no longer have a place to go for care.

But maybe that's really their plan. They do seem to like hurting poor people.

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jillinnj

It's their 'pack mentality" that I find distressing.

So typical. Lie and then when others call it out, criticize them for "pack mentality".

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SandyC.
We don't need JW propaganda to know if we are Christian or not. I don't believe in a cults.
Green is entitled to his beliefs, it is a free country, so far.
He does not vote according to his cult, but is happy to speak his propaganda, anti female, anti gay through out the pages on HT.
SOB
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Ann

Nightowl, in 2015 in the US, it looks like 14 of every 100,000 women died in childbirth. Childbirth is very rarely the death sentence you mentioned. According to the CDC, that's approximately 600 women per year in the US. In comparison, I believe the Washington Post article I read several hours ago, said there were 327,000 abortions performed by PP alone in 2015.


http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT

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jodik_gw

Jill, it's a lost cause... facts don't seem to matter one whit to those with particular mindsets or agendas.

I suspect we could shout it from the rooftops or hang a 50 foot banner in Times Square, and some still wouldn't get it.

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SandyC.
NO ABORTIONS ARE PAID FOR BY FEDERAL FUNDS.
What is paid for is cancer screening, pre natal care, birth control, to prevent unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
It is obvious the Trump supporters want to drive up health costs for the rest of us, by preventing funding for the ones who need it the most :) those lazy, poor people.
If they get their wish, we will all see our benefits cut and prices rise :)
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jillinnj

If they get their wish, we will all see our benefits cut and prices rise :)

and then they'll blame Obama

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Roseberry Ranch

Jill, it's a lost cause... facts don't seem to matter one whit to those with particular mindsets or agendas.

I suspect we could shout it from the rooftops or hang a 50 foot banner in Times Square, and some still wouldn't get it.

For once we agree. The liberals appear to be unable to believe anything except what they are programmed to believe, right or wrong. Tis a shame they never did learn to think independently.

I'll just be they all still believe that if they like their doctor, they can keep their doctor, and that premiums will cost less, with lower deductables, or that Hilliary landed under sniper fire, or wiped her server clean with a cloth. Seriously? And you have the unmitigated gall to call me a prevaricator of the truth because I happen to not elaborate on who lives in our home? I will say, you sure have big ones !!

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rgreen48(7a)

"We don't need JW propaganda to know if we are Christian or not. I don't believe in a cults.
Green is entitled to his beliefs, it is a free country, so far.
He
does not vote according to his cult, but is happy to speak his
propaganda, anti female, anti gay through out the pages on HT.
SOB"


As you can see Roseberry, as soon as you become a threat to their message, you become a target to be discredited. No evidence, no pointed rebuttal to the issue, just accusations. It's intolerance and an unwillingness to consider any view point that challenges the message.

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elvis

jodik_gw

If Roseberry doesn't have children, as she clearly states in a post on December 1st of 2016, what is she even talking about?

jodik_gw

As a footnote to my last post...

It's too late now, Roseberry... the information is already out there. Your credibility took quite a lot of buckshot.

RBR clarified her statement. If someone asked me if I have children, I would definitely say "no", even though I raised one. For all you know, RBR's daughter is deceased.

You really want us to trot out your seemingly inconsistent "histories", Jodik?


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patriciae_gw(07)

Au contraire Roseberry. We all came to our conclusions independently just as you did.

I have not questioned the validity of your daughter because we have to take each other on faith. I might wonder why your daughter didn't think to make a phone call to the clinic in question to not only to make sure they could meet her needs but also to make an appointment in case they don't just deal with walk-ins. That is not some sort of radial thinking. To make it PP's fault because she didn't do that is just peevishness.

Because PP is a major supplier of health care you cant just do away with it. States have tried this. The idea is that other clinics will spring up like mushrooms fully staffed and ready to take in any patient who walks through the door with reproductive needs. That is magical thinking.

OK, on this on Elvis I flatly refuse to believe you would say you had no children when you do. I am sorry. I can only stretch credulity just so far.

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Ann

I do think defunding of PP will occur so we'll find out if abortions decrease or not. It seems to be fairly high on the Republican agenda.

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purrmichigan(5)

I'm more interested/baffled by the FRW in general and their need to get rid of PP. Personal anecdotes and regrets are just that. Personal. The case hasn't been made that accessible health care from PP leads to more abortions.

I did like Rose's questions above, I was confused who she was directing them to. For every person who is opposed to PP or for that matter helping people who need help, i.e. food stamps, health insurance I'd like to know what you're doing with your life that shows you care at all about the less fortunate. Or are food stamps and health insurance unnecessary cause you just don't have a darn because you and your family are above average and superior in most ways?

And Elvis, if I read you right, I'm sorry for your loss. I understand something about it.


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jlhug

Only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services are abortion services.


You do realize that each woman who visits a Planned Parenthood clinic receives more than one service, don't you?

Planned Parenthood claims they saw 2.5 million patients (page 5) in their 2014/2015 annual report. They performed 323,999 abortions (page 30). Simple math says that just shy of 13% of the people who are planned parenthood patients/clients receive abortions. The advertised 3% of services are abortions while not a lie is deceptive and, I believe, intentionally used instead of saying that 13% of their patients receive abortion services.

Even this article from Slate argues that the 3% figure is meaningless.


Personally, I think that Planned Parenthood should be supported by the government. I see no reason to defund it. However, I sure wish it was more upfront about the number of women who receive abortions.

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Caree

Pure Michigan: 'For every person who is opposed to PP or for that matter helping people who need help, i.e. food stamps, health insurance I'd like to know what you're doing with your life that shows you care at all about the less fortunate. Or are food stamps and health insurance unnecessary cause you just don't have a darn because you and your family are above average and superior in most ways?'

Pure Michigan: 'The divide again. Do Repubs not have the empathy gene? :) Did no one along the way get them to be more well rounded? imho there's something lacking in the RW.'


This kind of thinking from the Left is actually rooted in their own lack of 'roundness'.

In
reading the work of social scientist researcher J. Haidt, he states that it isn't that Republicans are not caring or interested in helping others, it's that they go about solving problems in different ways. Aside from discovering that conservatives work with a balance of all six moral foundations, rather than only the three that Dems have access to, he also says conservatives have a better intuitive understanding of human nature and are more open to liberal ideas than Dems are to conservative ideas.

I realize the core group here won't be interested in this research but others might be and it's useful information to put out there, to include amongst these typically one-sided threads for more perspective and balance.


***********

'Moral Foundations Theory:

The study design allowed us to examine the stereotypes that each side held about the other. ...The biggest errors in the whole study came when liberals answered the Care and Fairness questions while pretending to be conservatives.


At present, the theory proposes six such foundations: Care, Fairness, Liberty, Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity;

In particular, Haidt and fellow researchers have argued that progressives prioritize the moral foundations Care, Fairness, and Lifestyle Liberty in their reasoning; libertarians prioritize Lifestyle and Economic Liberty; while conservatives value all six metrics roughly equally.[1]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

*******

Excerpts from article by Gordon Trenchard of The Independent Whig about Haidt's work on understanding moral psychology as it applies to the dangerously deepening political divide:

'According to social science research into liberal and conservative psychology summarized in the book "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided By Religion And Politics" by Jonathan Haidt, conservatives are more open minded about liberal ideas than liberals are about conservative ideas.

The reason for this is that ideologies and moralities differ in the degree to which they employ six psychological mechanisms of social perception, awareness, understanding, and reasoning that evolved in the human psyche as we became the only animal on the planet that forms into extra large social groups of individuals who are not related to one another (e.g., beehives can be extra-large social groups but they're all siblings).

The six mechanisms operate like little subconscious radars, constantly scanning the social environment for patterns of thoughts and behaviors that represented opportunities/threats to our genetic ancestors, and sending flashes of affect - intuitive feelings of like or dislike, approach or avoid, and fight or flee - forward to consciousness when such patterns are detected. They are:

care/harm,

fairness/cheating,

liberty/oppression,

loyalty/betrayal,

authority/subversion,

sanctity/degradation

The conservative moral mind tends to use all of them, but the liberal moral mind tends to use only half of them. There's no liberal moral foundation that's not ALSO a conservative foundation, but half the conservative foundations are essentially unavailable to the liberal "righteous mind."

******

'JONATHAN HAIDT: When I began this work, I was very much a liberal. And over time, in doing the research for my book and in reading a lot of conservative writing, I’ve come to believe that conservative intellectuals actually are more in touch with human nature. They have a more accurate view of human nature.

We need structure. We need families. We need groups. It’s okay to have memberships and rivalries. All that stuff is okay, unless it crosses the threshold into Manichaeism. So I think that it would be very difficult to run a good society without resting much on loyalty, authority and sanctity. I think you need to use those.'

******

'It's true that liberals tend to score higher on the personality trait of openness to new ideas, but keep in mind that the opposite of openness is NOT closed mindedness, it is threat awareness. The term "open to new ideas and experience" is merely a positive-sounding label for the low end of the scale of social threat/opportunity awareness. More foundations are threat/opportunity detectors. So it's only natural that when one employs only about half of the evolved psychological mechanisms of social awareness that one will be "open" to all sorts of ideas and behaviors that a a person who is more sensitive and aware will be wary of.

Another interesting result of Haidt's research is that historically, from Edmund Burke to Thomas Sowell, conservatives have had a better intuitive grasp of fundamental human nature than have liberals from Jean-Jacques Rousseau to Paul Krugman. '

Full article:

https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-following-is-more-true-Liberals-are-open-minded-about-conservatives-ideas-OR-Conservatives-are-open-minded-about-liberals-ideas

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Caree

continued, Haidt did a study ... '

'The design allowed us to examine the stereotypes that each side held about the other. More important, it allowed us to assess how accurate they were by comparing people’s expectations about “typical” partisans to the actual responses from partisans on the left and the right)’ Who was best able to pretend to be the other?

The results were clear and consistent. Moderates and conservatives were most accurate in their predictions, whether they were pretending to be liberals or conservatives. Liberals were the least accurate, especially those who described themselves as “very liberal.”

The biggest errors in the whole study came when liberals answered the Care and Fairness questions while pretending to be conservatives.

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SandyC.
Watching Fox News propaganda.
I do think we are headed to a government run tv station.
Do people watch RT?
The GOP have to keep their minority bases happy and fulfill some of their promises to the "religious" zealot ideology.
They also have to pretend to keep the minority racist xenophobes happy by building a wall, LOL.
Then their Koch Brothers agenda, of taking over Wall Street to lift regulations, carry out defunding programs, taking away those nasty consumer protections led by McConnell, can proceed. Without the fringe groups of racists and religious evangelicals, the GOP would not win. This is why the party has gone so extreme right and xenophobic, they need to pander to the fringe groups for votes.We see it happening everywhere across the EU, with the intervention of Putin and the Russian government. The extremists are being given a voice.Jeez the KKK had a celebratory parade!
This has been a well constructed agenda for years.
Take a look at all of the " think tanks" that the Koch Brothers and dark money is funneled through.
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SandyC.
Snookums loves that on piece of information by Haight, one she presented to say white people need allies and immigrants should assimilate and take on," American" customs...SOB
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Roseberry Ranch

I might wonder why your daughter didn't think to make a phone call to the clinic in question to not only to make sure they could meet her needs but also to make an appointment in case they don't just deal with walk-ins. That is not some sort of radial thinking. To make it PP's fault because she didn't do that is just peevishness.

She is a grown up and not living with us, and out on her own, She was a single and pretty rebellious extreme left wing liberal for a time, and for me to question as to why she didn't call first would have sounded like an admonition on my part. S, I just let her do her thing and prayed my a$$ off that she would wake up and come back home. She eventually did, and I thank God she did Until reading up a lot more about PP, I hope that it isn't defunded, BUT I hope that funding is withheld from unregulated clinics until they are regulated. Would you want to go to an unregulated clinic to have back surgery? Both are invasive and IMO should be regulated. I admit I had a wrong and bad opinion of PP. I think knowing that the founder, M Sanger, and her fondness for eugenics put me off from even wanting to learn more about it. For that I apologize. But that still does not give you license to call me names without your knowing the facts. I should have been better prepared for the double standard that seems to be the norm for this forum .

I am proud to say that my daughter and her husband are working hard to become debt free and unless something catastrophic comes along, they should attain their goal within the next 3-4 years. She owns her own business, and he is retired military, and now works for the government as well as helping her when he has the time. She works from home and so no need for sitters or daycare. I am pleased that she returned to her roots and good ethics and moral base we provided for her to fall back on.

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jodik_gw

Is that a threat, elvis? Are you threatening me in a public forum?!

Bring it on!

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I work on behalf of domestic violence victims in need of legal representation pro bono when I can, regularly give legal advice free to these individuals and their children need not just legal assistance from me but health services, food stamps, housing, and more - to ensure they remain safe and do not have to return to their abuser due to such simple financial needs.

The same safety net that provides funding to domestic violence shelters includes PP and reproductive health services they provide to so many across the nation. The impact of losing funds will be felt by all, not just the less fortunate.

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Kathy

Jennifer....I salute you!

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momj47(7A)

So you'll be designating your taxes in 2016 for programs to care for the babies born to women who no longer have any access to women's health care services, jlhug?

Because if anti-women/anti-choice Americans aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is, then their objections are meaningless, and their attitude is beyond cruel, cold-hearted, inhuman, merciless.

I certainly hope the people here on HT who oppose abortion don't consider themselves to be Christians, or even "christians".

I don't think Jesus would be at all pleased.

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SandyC.
Kudos Jennifer.
You are a hero.
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sunflower_petal(5a)

"I hope that it isn't defunded"

So, Roseberry, you don't want to see PP defunded in general? Are you willing to call your representatives and let them know?

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SandyC.
Those of us, who work and volunteer with the disenfranchised, must speak up! We are their voice.

My daughter and I are attending a women's march Jan 21.
Not only can we protest and volunteer, we must donate to causes that support those Trump's misogynistic, racist programs will impact tremendously.
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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I shared my personal contribution not for praise but to show there's a tie-in among the various groups who our safety net helps. PP supplies reproductive health services and birth control; women seeking to escape abusive relationships become less and less able to the more children they have with their abuser not to mention the concern that domestic violence shelters don't always have the ability to accept women with children and it's all about FUNDING reductions or outright elimination.

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momj47(7A)

Anti-women/anti-choice Americans here on HT condemn women who want contraceptives and abortions as less worthy than their own pets.

You get your pets spayed and neutered. Yet you won't allow women the same rights.

By defunding Planned Parenthood, women all over America will no longer be able to get contraceptives, or treatment for STI's, or referrals for mammograms or abortions.

And Catholic hospitals don't provide women's health care services, they will let a woman die before they will even provide emergency care, if if goes against their "beliefs".

Shame, shame, shame on you.

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rgreen48(7a)

"I certainly hope the people here on HT who oppose abortion don't consider themselves to be Christians, or even "christians".

I don't think Jesus would be at all pleased."

Would you please expound?

Jesus followed the Mosaic Law. In the Mosaic Law, even the accidental killing of an unborn child was punished the same as manslaughter or murder. Numerous times throughout the Bible, God spoke to people with phrases such as... 'I knew you in the womb...'

Abortion is the intentional killing of a human in an early stage of development. And keep in mind, that even the first killing of animals required God's approval.

All life is precious in God's sight. 'Not even a sparrow falls to the ground...'

If earnest humans in general had any real concept of how precious life is, they would act much differently. Even the act that procreates life is treated selfishly by callous humans. But then, the consequences are murdered?

As far as human laws... the Christian does not need human laws in any form to find and understand God's viewpoint on the matter.

If you are a Christian, and feel that abortion is not a sin, or even the unmarried sexual intercourse that unfortunately leads to many abortions is not a sin, then I suggest reading the Bible and paying close attention. Don't look for something to excuse your conscience... rather read it objectively, looking for God's words on the subject, allowing God's words to shape your conscience.

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SandyC.
SOB
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lily316

Very interesting find, Maddie. I have two kids and even though they left home years ago , I would not categorize in a post that I don't have any children just my pets. So when kids leave home, then you are childless, Roseberry?????

More like liar liar, pants on fire...just to make a point against PP.

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Kathy

Re: choice/abortion

jodi....totally agree...

Abortion is a very personal choice. It is not a requirement. If you are against abortion, do not have one. It's really that simple.

conservatives complain government is taking away their freedoms as they are taking the freedoms from others.

Ann, there won't be statistics if abortions go down without PP until the women start showing up dead from backroom abortions. The Reps don't just want to defund PP they want to outlaw abortions PERIOD.


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Roseberry Ranch

So, Roseberry, you don't want to see PP defunded in general? Are you willing to call your representatives and let them know?

I had a discussion about PP with a friend of mine yesterday, one of our State Senators, and he filled me in on funding vs non funding PP here in our state. It was an interesting discussion, and provided a lot of information regarding PP, both good and bad. Our discussion was a lot more civil and informative sans name calling or vitriolic remarks. He listened to my concerns, and I listened to his. It was civil, something that I find is often lacking here at HT, especially if one dares to think independently rather than in lock step with the others.

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chase_gw

Just like you have a daughter. .......or not. You are not to be believed.

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jodik_gw

Thank you, Jennifer. What a wonderful, generous thing to do. :-)

I wish more people within the legal (and other) field would offer pro bono services. There's such a great need!

And thank you for reminding us that so many of the various services are tied in together, and when one loses... they all lose.

~~~

And if you're off on your threatened little hunt for inconsistencies, elvis... keep in mind that opinions and viewpoints often change over time, and are not subject to staying concretely stagnated.



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purrmichigan(5)

That's great that you and he both listened to each other. Something positive will come out of that discussion.

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momj47(7A)

The Reps don't just want to defund PP they want to outlaw abortions PERIOD.

And contraception, and sex education, and family planning, and anything having to do with women's health care.

The RWEx don't want women to have any reproductive rights, and once that's done, they'll take away all the other rights. too.

For example

Pence tried to shut down the government because of Planned Parenthood funding.

Pence cosponsored a bill that would have essentially redefined rape, prohibiting federal funds from paying for abortion except in cases of “forcible rape,” and a bill that would allow hospitals to deny abortions to pregnant women who would die without the care.

Pence said mothers who work stunt their children's growth

Mike Pence said condoms are a poor defense against sexually transmitted infections and diseases.

This is the idiocy running rampant on RWEx web sites, RWEx media, and even here on HT.

We should be afraid, very afraid

Does Pence have a womb, a uterus, a vagina?

If not, then he should get his nose out of ours.

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elvis

momj47(7A)

Anti-women/anti-choice Americans here on HT condemn women who want contraceptives and abortions as less worthy than their own pets.

You get your pets spayed and neutered. Yet you won't allow women the same rights.

I wouldn't get my dog an abortion. However, I have no problem having my taxes pay for adult humans to get contraceptives or be "spayed or neutered", if they choose to do so.

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Roseberry Ranch

Just like you have a daughter. .......or not. You are not to be believed.

Judgemental much chase??

Do you actually think I care whether or not you believe me? Seriously? You mean less to me than the dust bunnies I swept out from under my bed today. At least they are honorable, and don't pretend to be so much more righteous than folks that don't agree with your vitriolic false narratives.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Thank you for speaking to your State Senator about PP. I assume from what you said that you were speaking in favor of keeping it funded. I don't think I've ever called you a name on this forum. There are plenty of people here that are willing and able to be civil when the discussion remains open and productive.

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momj47(7A)

`I wouldn't get my dog an abortion. However, I have no problem having my taxes pay for adult humans to get contraceptives or be "spayed or neutered", if they choose to do so.

Really, then why do you vote for candidates who oppose women and women's reproductive rights?

Are RWEx supporters so naive to think that their RWEx "lawmakers" will stop with abortion?

If they do what they have promised, women won't be able to get contraceptives, or be spayed.

These MEN oppose women's reproductive rights, period. Not only abortion, but contraception, in any form.

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ann_t

Oh give me a break Rose, What a joke you talking about someone else being judgemental.

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chase_gw

Roseberry, judgemental ? Not at all. Which post did you lie on. ...the one with a daughter or the one without children? I do not presume to know which is true.

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SandyC.
The old, white, anti women, anti gay, anti minority, men have voted to stop needle exchange programs for HIV patients in one of the red states.
Whenever I see McConnell and the whole lot of them standing together on tv, with their sh_t eating grins I cringe. The thought of dismantling everything our free country stands for is nauseating.
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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

@Jodik_gw

I think part of the issue with doing pro bono is that any legal matter involves paying fees and doing 'free' hours means those hours aren't 'billable hours'; I would rather give free advice to DV victims than spend that time giving relatives and friends free legal - but that's me. I practice family law as a sole practitioner, and have seen an incredible amount of people who are leaving situations involving some sort of abuse if not multiple kinds. We mostly hear about the extreme cases that end in death(s) of the victim, their children, and sometimes the abuser when domestic violence makes the news. That it can take many forms on a sliding scale of severity makes it easier to ignore the issue until it ends with someone dead.


Until women begin turning up dead after 'back alley' surgeries trying to terminate a pregnancy, the right will ignore the problem.

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Kathy

We are going back to start with women's rights......what a shame ....

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jlhug

So you'll be designating your taxes in 2016 for programs to care for the babies born to women who no longer have any access to women's health care services, jlhug?

Please explain to me how I can designate the taxes I pay to go to any specific program?

Please explain where I said I wanted to cut off funding for Planned Parenthood?

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Caree

'Removing funding for these services will ensure that the abortion rate goes up not down. Education and prevention services are the most effective way to reduce the abortion rate.'

'women who no longer have any access to women's health care services'


From the OP article:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/paul-ryan-planned-parenthood-obamacare/index.html

'Congressional Republicans have tried for years to zero out all federal funding for Planned Parenthood because the group provides abortion services. ...

The vast majority of federal money that Planned Parenthood does receive funds preventive health care, birth control, pregnancy tests, and other women's health care services.

Democrats also point out that much of the money the group received is through the Medicaid program, which reimburses health care clinics that provide care to those covered by the federal program....

Anti-abortion rights groups point to a letter that the Trump campaign signed in September pledging support for "Defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they continue to perform abortions, and re-allocating their funding to community health centers that provide comprehensive health care for women."


So it would not seem so black and white. Services would be continued through other providers. It would also seem that a compromise could be reached if Planned Parenthood would refer the abortions to other providers. Then they could continue to offer their useful preventative/medical services through the Medicaid system without conflict.

I remember viewing some undercover investigation tapes revealing discussions on their sale of aborted fetus material, for suspected illegalities. So they've created a rather controversial organization. If PP doesn't want to modify what business they do, then it might need to rely on public funding to maintain their operations - while government funded healthcare is routed to other providers. It does not appear the government wants to eliminate these services.

Eliminate the controversial, highly charged activity by referring out abortions, eliminate the problem. They are not supposed to be making profit on baby parts, so no income should be lost there.

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable compromise or alternative to me if the primary goal is to educate and provide preventative/medical care. I can understand how a lot of people would not approve of the organization due to its connection to abortions and sale of aborted fetus parts, and so object to much of its operation being supported by government funding. I don't find that unreasonable either.


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SandyC.
"Sale of aborted fetus parts" omg where are you getting your information? Such obscene misogynistic, rhetoric, probably from the Pence crowd. Does this garbage meant to marginalize women come from white supremacist Breitbart or Russian tv, not sure where you get your propaganda?
Do you also agree with the Donald about " late term" abortions? I think he actually thought it was a real thing. He is so intellectually challenged he probably believes his own misogynistic rhetoric.
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Caree

@SandyC

'Snookums loves that on piece of information by Haight, one she presented to say white people need allies and immigrants should assimilate and take on," American" customs...'

I don't even know what you are talking about. People here just make things up, whether it be politics or simply understanding what someone has said. It's entertaining to watch and is about the only useful informative aspect of reading here.

The Left's filters are so clogged and their thinking so distorted that it is not just amusing but a frightening phenomena to see, considering what's at stake. Very useful take away information.

Of course you don't like what Haidt has to say to us. And we all know the HT group on Gardenweb knows more than the various Ph.D's that are observing and turning this work out. He's interested in the intense political divide because of the dangerous place the West is headed. He's ringing the warning bells.

I realize the core group here won't be interested in this type of research but others might be and it's useful information to put out there, to include amongst these typically one-sided corrosive threads, for more perspective and balance.

You are the ones who come out with those highly flawed statements and conclusions. This is ivy league research's conclusion, whether you like it or not.

In the work of social scientist researcher J. Haidt, he states that it isn't that Republicans are not caring or interested in helping others, it's that they go about solving problems in different ways. Aside from discovering that conservatives work with a balance of all six moral foundations, rather than only the three that Dems have available, he also says conservatives have a better intuitive understanding of human nature and are more open to liberal ideas than Dems are to conservative ideas.

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Caree

SandyC you're rather scary, lol.

I've never watched your vilified Breitbart either. The worst things I'm exposed to are right here.

I did watch several videos of multiple discussions with PP doctors regarding their sale of aborted fetus material. I guess it was a play put on by the Right.

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Caree

Here's one news piece that includes video of one of the conversations. There are quite a few different encounters on tape, showing detailed conversations with other people included.

As I understand, it's legal to provide tissue to biomedical research companies. They were being investigated for making profit which is illegal.

'A shocking video has emerged that shows a Planned Parenthood doctor discussing the sale of body parts taken from aborted fetuses with who she believes to be potential buyers from a medical company.

Dr. Deborah Nucatola, who has been the Senior Director of Medical Services at Planned Parenthood Federation of America since February of 2009, is seen on camera as she discusses selling hearts, lungs, livers and even the muscles of aborted fetuses.

She also discusses using 'partial-birth abortion' techniques to deliver some of these organs intact. '

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3161040/Planned-Parenthood-s-doctor-caught-undercover-video-discussing-sale-aborted-fetus-organs-potential-buyers-including-body-worth.html

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Caree

Slate's coverage, defending PP for making $0 profit on the sale of fetal material:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/09/28/doing_the_math_on_how_much_profit_planned_parenthood_is_supposedly_making.html


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SandyC.

Yes it is called fake news. Not everything on the internet is true. There are a lot of those vile anti abortion propaganda sights that are peddled by the old, white, religious zealots.
The people who blow up abortion clinics and kill health care providers. The ones who want to save the fetus, but kill anyone they feel in their twisted mind, deserves death.

" films which falsely showed parts being sold" Please scroll down to the next article in Slate where you see the committee to defund PP was dismissed and the findings of selling baby parts were false. These are truly religious zealots who believe propaganda. Btw, that blond congresswoman is one who is trying to dismantle the ACA, she is pure anti woman.

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SandyC.
Snookums you maybe confused or maybe you use another alias, but there was a very ugly topic about white nationalism and white America where you sited Haight a few months ago.
It was a thread about how the OP was happy with Trumps win and she thought everybody should just get over it.
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Caree

FactCheck.org covers the investigation which is around the selling of fetus parts. Legally, they can be donated for transplantation and research. PP is not permitted to sell them.

The story was not fabricated by Brietbart or Russian TV. I believe the group at HT approves FactCheck.org for reliable information.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/

'What Does the Law Say?

In a statement made to CNN, another presidential candidate, retired neurosurgeon Ben Carson, called the practice discussed in the video a “clear violation of federal law.” The “sale” of organs, both adult and fetal, for transplantation is indeed illegal, but donation of tissue — both from aborted fetuses and from adults — is not. And payment for “reasonable” costs is also allowed under the law.

The video itself highlights a portion of title 42 of the U.S. code, which reads: “It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human organ for valuable consideration for use in human transplantation if the transfer affects interstate commerce.” The law does include fetal tissue in its definitions. It says that the term “valuable consideration” doesn’t include “reasonable payments” for removal, transportation, preservation and other associated costs.

In 1993, a law pertaining to federally funded NIH research was enacted that allows donation of fetal tissue from induced abortions if certain criteria are met. These include that the woman donating is not aware of the recipients of the tissue, and that the abortion timing, procedures or method itself would not be altered for the sole purpose of obtaining the tissue.

The 1993 law also says that it is unlawful “for any person to knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human fetal tissue for valuable consideration if the transfer affects interstate commerce.” The law again excludes the types of costs Nucatola discussed in the video: “The term ‘valuable consideration’ does not include reasonable payments associated with the transportation, implantation, processing, preservation, quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue.”

The American Medical Association echoes this in its ethical guidelines on the issue: “Fetal tissue is not provided in exchange for financial remuneration above that which is necessary to cover reasonable expenses.”'

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Caree

Sandy I think you are quite mistaken that this is fake news. There are numerous videos of multiple open conversations involving the sale (not legal donation) of aborted fetus parts. One of those videos is shown on the DailyMail link above. CNN shows one too. Some time ago I saw several that were conducted for the undercover investigation. Multiple staff members were involved not just Dr. N. What they are talking about is not only shocking for many but against the law according to the information on FactCheck.org

Of course, some of the speculation or valid concerns certainly might be untrue, such as whether PP or the mothers were profiting from the sales (not just covering costs) but the activity of selling parts is illegal. That is why there was an undercover operation.

Presidential candidates commented on the tapes. This is not a made up news story from partisan media outlets.

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Ann

Snookums, how dare you bring up a topic she doesn't want to hear! I guess the dramatic reaction is meant to try to convince all it isn't true. Anyone out there that thinks PP didn't sell body parts? Anyone else want to try the dramatic reaction tactic?

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SandyC.

Please read the second article you posted. The whole thing was dropped. It is a non story and was proved wrong. The committee were a bunch of right wing religious zealots, just another plan to defund PP. It is propaganda and false.

This was last year and was dropped. They were reaching at straws to defund the services of PP for poor women.

This is evil, anti woman propaganda, one of the many reasons Putin's puppet is frightening as he_ll.

This is not Russia, we have free press for now....thank goodness.

if this false story shows up again, then we should really be worried. Trump and Puin may plant a fake story, but for now it is not true.

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Caree

'Snookums you maybe confused or maybe you use another alias, but there was a very ugly topic about white nationalism and white America where you sited Haight a few months ago. '

I've cited various researchers and different pieces by him quite a few times. I don't think I'm at all confused about what work I've posted and why, or what I think.

What's that saying. I'm responsible for what I say but not for your interpretation of it. I do attempt to be clear and provide useful information which is all anyone can do.

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SandyC.


Please try not to believe fake stories. We will be seeing more and more now Putin is involved. Wait until he turns on Donnie, it will take a year or so, it always does, once the honeymoon phase is over with Putin.

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SandyC.

Go to snopes. Com. I remember the smear campaign of PP last year, using the words" selling body parts". The tape was well funded by an anti abortion group.

They don't sell body parts. Some patients request to donate tissues be used for medical stem cell research, there is no profit. It is a woman's right to donate for medical research.

Abortions are mostly done very early,the woman is given a pill and sent home to abort. The ones done in the office are a little later up to 12 weeks, so no body parts.

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Caree

Sandy, please post what disproves the content of the tapes. How it is fake news. I scanned quite a bit of FactCheck's coverage and did not see where the story was false. Why would presidential candidates be wasting their time discussing the legalities within fake news stories. I'm sorry but you are not making sense to me.

I don't see how anyone can look at those tapes and still conclude it's all fake and there is no selling of fetus body parts going on. PP has a price list. They were casually discussing buying options and organ condition on tapes I saw. While I don't know the details around the law, what I read clearly stated that is illegal. They can legally make donations for transplant and science only.

I assumed charges weren't filed or we would still be hearing about it if that's what you were saying. That still doesn't change the fact that they have been selling organs and tissue. This is understandably shocking to many people, on either side of the debate for that matter.

Honestly, pro-lifers are entitled to their beliefs too. Just because you don't believe a mother carries a child in her womb doesn't mean everyone else has to buy into it. Where did freedom for all go. It's not a selective thing.

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Caree

They have a pricing system. They detail organs and condition. Full conversations with a potential buyer are on video.

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purrmichigan(5)

Snookums loves that on piece of information by Haight, one she presented to say white people need allies and immigrants should assimilate and take on," American" customs...'

I don't even know what you are talking about. You people just make things up, whether it be politics or simply understanding what someone has said

I'm curious about the alias thing. Because I distinctly remember you posting furiously about whites aligning with whites. Definitely not made up. Not so long ago, but you can't remember saying that?

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azmom

"Planned Parenthood claims they saw 2.5 million patients (page 5) in their 2014/2015 annual report. They performed 323,999 abortions (page 30). Simple math says that just shy of 13% of the people who are planned parenthood patients/clients receive abortions. "

Your simple math based on subjective interpretation of the data is misleading and deceiving.

PP clearly stated that Only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services are abortion, instead of 3% of patients they saw.

The claim is correct, based on the number of the 2014-2015 annual report.

total services - 9,455,582 total abortion - 329,999

Total Abortion/Total Services = 329,999/9,455,582 = 0.034899914145951 ~ 3%

Why did you calculate the percentage based on 2.5 million patients the PP saw instead of the 9,455,582 number of services PP Provided? the way you calculated artificially bumped up the percentage to 13%.

It is the danger of interpreting data subjectively. 2 simple examples:

1. you could also declare out of 2.5 million patients, only 329,999 are women, the rest are men, so PP performed abortion on 100% of its patients.

2. Or you could announce PP's abortion service percentage is 0.001% or less.

As PP services to male patients also prevent pregnancies. If factoring in these potential pregnancies, the abortion services percentage could be even less.

The bottom line is why RW refuses to give women their rights to control their own body, health and future? Why RW forces women to go through unwanted pregnancies? Why RW forces us to pay for others' unwanted kids?

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azmom

"Because I distinctly remember you posting furiously about whites aligning with whites. Definitely not made up. Not so long ago, but you can't remember saying that?"

I remember that too. And also remember Snook cited an intellectual from a big name university and a TED talk show. I read the intellectual's article, and considered his opinions were laughable.

snook,

Most bizarre, angry and scary stuff I read from HT are from your postings.

Now Selling baby body parts? You are a little out of date, aren't you?

Are you in the same camp with Carly Fiorina? She used the "Selling baby parts" as one of her major campaign topics back in Aug. Sept, 2015. It was fake news. On the CNN when reporter confronted Fiorina about her crazy tale, she did not have any answer. It surely further sealed her reputation as being 'crazy' and a 'rumor manufactory'.

By any chance, do you copy her favorite phase "you people" from Ann Romney? Guess you GOP failed to vote a Maria Antonia into the White House, so now you voted a nude model. Amazing!

Oh, almost forget, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann are also GOP. Should ask "What is wrong with you GOP Women?

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SandyC.

The same Repub senator that showed that " evidence" with Carly Fiorina, is itching to dismantle the ACA. Remember, the GOP have to pander to the extreme fringe groups like the evangelicals, to keep their vote, who will never, ever admit that PP does not get funding from the Feds for abortions. It's just the fact they do 3% of their business as abortions and they don't approve, the hipocrites. To he_ ll with the 97% of poor women ,children and men who got essential medical service, they deem it not worthy of funding. I am done discussing this issue, as the religious hypocrites will never change their minds. They have shown who they are and it is appalling. They have never expressed empathy for the disenfranchised kids or moms who can barely put food on the table. This is going to go on for years, we must all stand up against Putin's puppet and the white supremacist, bigots.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

A group called Center for Medical Progress released a video in June or July of 2015 with false claims of Planned Parenthood illegally selling remains of aborted fetuses. Later David Daleiden of CMP admitted to deceptive editing. PP was not selling fetal tissue, but receiving reimbursement for transport costs of the tissue -- all legal. Iirc Center for Medical Progess ran into legal problems after their bogus video was exposed.

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SandyC.

It's going to be a long four years. The fake news lives on forever. For the bigots, racists and misogynists, there will always be a fake story, if not on Fox fakenews, online or from Trumps own mouth, or tweet to confirm their bias. The hoaxer was charged with felony but charges were dropped.
Looks like they got funding from Operation Rescue to pull off the hoax. Despicable, to try to defund medical care for young women and babies.
Do the Koch brothers fund anti abortion efforts?

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SandyC.

The Koch brothers have given millions to anti abortion groups.

They don't particularly care about fetuses, zygotes, or embryos, they need the evangelical vote.

This has been part of their master plan, to add to their base, and continue the raid of Wall Street and to rape and pillage our country.

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jlhug

Azmom, neither number is incorrect. The problem with using the 3% of services fact is that it is easily and frequently interpreted by those who don't understand how Planned Parenthood defines services. People hear 3% of services and interpret it to mean that only 3% of the people who go into Planned Parenthood have an abortion. That is not true. Even some pretty smart people such as Elizabeth Warren have made the mistake. Planned Parenthood includes pregnancy tests, pap smears, etc as a service.

As seen on page 30 of Planned Parenthood's annual report, Planned Parenthood completed 271,539 pap tests and 323,999 abortions. Assuming that each patient/client only receives one abortion and one pap test a year, comparing those two services which are unique to women leaves a different impression that "3% of services".

I support Planned Parenthood. It offers a much needed service. However, their rhetoric is deceptive and misleads the public.

Edited to add a link to Planned Parenthood's annual report.

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Ann

It does happen to be true according to PP's own website that 2.5 million patients are seen per year. Also, the number of abortions performed by them annually is over 300,000. I agree it's terribly misleading to say abortion is 3% of their services as I agree many services may be performed in one visit. Since many criticize them for the number of abortions, of course they conveniently throw out an accurate but highly misleading and quite meaningless statistic. I do think much more meaningful statistic would be what percentage of patients per year receive an abortion.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Still, that doesn't affect the total number of abortions per year, does it? Isn't that the only number that ultimately matters to anti-choice people?

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momj47(7A)

much more meaningful statistic would be what percentage of patients per year receive an abortion.

But you don't talk about patients, you rant on and on about abortions done "by" Planned Parenthood

So they give you statistics, and then you whine about that.

Maybe you'd like them to name the women who asked about abortion so you can harass them with misleading lies and ExRWc rhetoric

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Ann

j47, you may never wonder why or care, though I notice you chose to not SOB my comment, but I have decided to not deal with people that comment like you choose to on HT in the future. I think the childish name calling is not worth any effort or time so, in the future, I won't be responding to anyone on HT that uses those tactics. I'll comment without any name calling and be more than happy to chat with anyone that wants to be civil. If no one wants a civil conversation with me or with anyone else, that's fine too and certainly up to each person posting.

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Ann

Sunflower, I think the total number of abortions is a very disturbing number to pro-life people. If I were to comment as you have chosen to, would I refer to you as an anti-life person?

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Nothing Left to Say

I have come to the conclusion that the people who want to defund planned parenthood are anti-life.


The single most effective way to reduce the rate of abortion is to provide access to birth control. Defunding planned parenthood takes this away. It is the opposite of pro-life.


What's in it for these people? What is their real agenda?

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Punishing women for daring to want to decide when to have kids if ever, oh and for having sex outside of the parameters they approve of.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Women previously didn't have as much time to devote to advanced degrees or gaining more rights; lack of control over when and how many children they had kept them 'in their place' more or less - since abuse wasn't treated the same way back then (considered a private family issue) it likely kept many submissive and silent.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Back to the erroneous claim that PP "sells" fetal tissue. Many states held investigations of the PP clinics in their states after the false news about fetal tissue sales was brought forth by right-wing anti-abortion sources.

In every single case, the states could find NO EVIDENCE that PP was "selling" fetal tissue.

Try using google to search for "selling fetal tissue"--lots and lots and lots of hits will be shown, and a lot of them will cover the state investigations which ALL cleared PP of such charges.

It is really very easy to come up with hundreds of sources, so if you are having trouble finding sources, you are doing it completely wrong and need to have someone show you how to do an easy-peasy google search--so simple that a young child could easily do it.

On the other hand, if your searching is limited to just right-wing sources, you will have a hard time coming up with any accurate information at all since the right-wing sources are the ones responsible for circulating the FALSE NEWS about PP supposedly "selling" fetal tissue.

Kate

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"would I refer to you as an anti-life person?"

I would expect so. You guys refer to us as "pro-abortion" all the time when the correct term is pro-choice.

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Ann

I wonder if PP would consider continuing the part of their business that provides screening and birth control and eliminating the abortion part? It seems Republicans and Democrats might agree wholeheartedly about the benefits of birth control being readily available and affordable for free. Even though PP claims government funds aren't spent on abortions, that's a tough thing for them to demonstrate/prove with the abortion service being mixed in with their other services. Or, maybe PP will be defunded and continue with private funds. At that point, maybe a separate business could be formed that does not provide abortions but does provide the other services and does get government funding. Then, if PP provided abortions based on private funding, it would be their decision.

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Kathy

Sunflower...I agree...I am not pro-abortion------I am pro-choice...

"your freedom ends where mine begins"

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Ann

Sunflower, I don't.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Are you saying, Ann, that you are not anti-choice? You support letting women have reasonable access to safe abortions without undue burdens (such as waiting 72 hours between the first visit and the procedure) as per the law?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Then, if PP provided abortions based on private funding, it would be their decision."

Most of the women that go to PP for abortion pay for it themselves. That is private funding.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The problem is that not all the pro-life Republicans actually want women to have access to family planning services and so forth.

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jlhug

It is my understanding that Planned Parenthood used to make the fetal tissue from abortions available for research for the cost of "processing" the tissue. It is my understanding that about a year ago, they no longer accept reimbursement for fetal tissue.

IMO, using fetal tissue for research is similar to organ donation. The deceased has no use for it anymore so it makes sense to use it to benefit others.

Edited to change "accept payment for" to "accept reimbursement for".

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ann_t

I'm sorry Ann, but I think that any woman that has admitted to having an abortion should be supportive of other women who have a difficult choice to make, and should allow them to choose the best option that is right for them.


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Kathy

There is such a smear campaign about PP put out by extreme RW sources that the people have a hard time deciphering the facts...I read the Rep plan is to treat people at other clinics. Then if you get more into the details, it is about their private clinics. I am against taking taxpayers money for Profit. As much as people complain about their tax money spent by the government they are willing to hand it over to the profiteers.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ann, as pointed out numerous times in numerous threads through numerous years, PP has been continuously audited, and no federal funds are used for abortion services. To imply that keeping costs and income separate is some sort of magic displays complete ignorance of accounting.

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Kathy

Jhug, the money was never FOR the fetal tissue, it was for the processing...small difference...but legally different.

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momj47(7A)

I think the total number of abortions is a very disturbing number to pro-life people

You are kidding no one but yourself if you think you are "pro-life"

People who are pro-life support living people from birth to death. They make sure people have food, clothing, a place to live, health care, and on and on........

But you anti-women people don't believe in any of those things. You will happily cut off a new born baby from WIC, from SNAP from health care, from housing, because they are undeserving if they are poor, or black, or Latino, etc.

What hypocrites the RWEx are.

Shame on you.

Undeserving - isn't that the favorite RWEx word for anyone who is not Western European, white and middle class?

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Kathy

I wonder if the number of people suffering without medical care, or the children who have debilitating diseases are distressing to Pro-life people. Yet repealing Ocare is the top of the agenda with Pro-life people. Nonsensical to me...


eta-crosspost Mom

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bothell

Ann: still waiting for you to tell us how many children you will be adopting

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Ann

Sunflower, the "I don't" meant I don't refer to anyone as pro-abortion. Just clarifying in case it seemed like a random comment.

I want abortion to be a very, very well considered option. My biggest problem with PP is how quickly an abortion is performed. I think the mother should be really considering the consequences of the decision she is making. I'm in favor of mandatory ultrasounds (I don't buy the topic that an ultrasound is a highly invasive procedure - it's easy and painless) and I'm in favor of a 72 hour wait. I basically think there should be good counseling available to women that discusses the option of continuing the pregnancy. I don't think abortion should be against the law, but I'd like to see a decrease in the number of abortions and an increase in the number of adoptions. I wish there was an organization working hard to make adoption a more available option - to both pregnant women and adoptive parents.

Remember, this is my view. So, even though I anticipate attacks will begin, it's simply my view and I'm not asking others to share it. There is really no reason to expect I'll share your view. But, my personal opinion leads me to hope PP is defunded. I do believe there was a very callous procedure of the selling of fetal body parts and I do believe there is a fairly good chance there might be a "mixing" of private and government funds within PP. I am not a fan of PP as it currently exists.

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jlhug

Kathy, I said:

It is my understanding that Planned Parenthood used to make the fetal tissue from abortions available for research for the cost of "processing" the tissue.

So yes they didn't sell the tissue but were reimbursed for the processing of the tissue. I know that. I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer in my wording.

In my second sentence, I changed

no longer accept payment for fetal tissue

to

no longer accept reimbursement for fetal tissue.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

There was a woman who was well known for arranging adoptions for movie stars (can't remember her name right this minute and have too many windows open on my pc right now anyway) but obtained these babies through less than honest means and did some horrible things to the babies who weren't high enough quality to bring the highest price...Adoption agencies don't have nearly the amount of scrutiny they should, and if other countries have begun to refuse to do international adoptions with Americans (remember the woman who put a 6/7 year old boy on a plane by himself back to his country of origin?) there's reasons for it.

ETA: The idea of poor women being turned into a means of supplying infants to childless couples looking to adopt is already a problem happening in other parts of the world, where the wealthy take advantage of the desperate poverty, essentially BUYING a child. There are children in the U.S. waiting for a family to adopt them but this is unlikely considering all the requirements prospective adoptive parents have - infants are preferred, most don't want special needs children or those with severe medical problems...Private adoption agencies operating without much if any oversight, will let people adopt without putting them through the same checks and process that is required by the government system of foster care/adoptions. Is supplying babies to childless couples who the right considers 'more deserving of having children' the sort of thing people want to turn into a profitable business option? What do people think goes on at those 'crisis pregnancy' centers? They push pregnant women to give the baby up for adoption to supply their customer's demand! Instead of helping the woman keep her baby with services and programs that improve her life and capability of providing for that child, they want her to give it over to them instead! But hey, as long as those undeserving don't get any help that is paid for with taxes!

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Kathy

Ann, did you know they wanted a vaginal ultrasound not just an ultrasound? Do you realize there is a difference? Vaginal is vaginal....it is more invasive and not necessary. There is a waiting period already and the fact that they have closed many clinics the people have to travel for miles in some areas and stay for days.

Why doesn't the GOP set up adoption agencies near PP clinics to provide services for women to expand their choices? Instead of eliminating choices why not make more choices? The bottom line is the Republicans want to suck the money from the government for their businesses. If anyone wants to talk about entitlements, look at GOP agenda.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"I want abortion to be a very, very well considered option."

You are pre-judging the women that they can not possibly have already spent much time considering this. Will there be some women that don't? Of course, just like there are people that do all sorts of things when they should have considered them.

But the controls you advocate would affect every woman even if she did her own thinking. And, in particular, the 72 hour waiting period is a burden to women who have to travel for a procedure (because so few abortion-providing clinics remain in some states; some states are down to a single clinic).

"I'd like to see a decrease in the number of abortions"

Defunding PP will accomplish the opposite of that as they are single largest provider of family planning, education and ultimately the choice to use birth control.

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momj47(7A)

I want abortion to be a very, very well considered option.

And why do you think it's not a very well-considered choice?

Sarah Palin considered it and decided not to have an abortion, she said so herself.

Donald Trump told Marla Maples to "consider" an abortion and she, obviously, decided not to have one.

You aren't fooling anyone buy yourself with that "I want abortion to be a very, very well considered option."

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Kathy

Defunding PP only punishes and penalizes the poor. The wealthy will always have their private doctors and medical care.

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Ann

Again, my opinion is simply mine. I'm not asking anyone here to share it and I don't share the opinion of many commenting. That's OK.

I did mean vaginal ultrasound. I don't buy the topic that it is highly invasive. It's a very simple procedure.

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jlhug

Why doesn't the GOP set up adoption agencies near PP clinics to provide services for women to expand their choices?

Why is the ratio of adoptions to abortions in the Planned Parenthood annual report so low? 2024 adoption referrals vs. 323,999 abortions.

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jlhug

Kathy, you do realize that an abortion is an invasive procedure?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Of course, we are allowed to have different opinions. We are just trying to point out to you the consequences of what you support. What you think will happen has been proved over the years to be the opposite of what happens. Women will still have abortions however they can get them. Some women will die trying. Some will continue the pregnancy but resent the child, may not have good prenatal care, won't necessarily give it up for adoption, and in some of those households, the child later dies of abuse (mother, boyfriend).

The glorious dream that these pregnancies will end up as beautiful, white, healthy, adoptable babies is, in fact, just a dream.

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palisades_

It's a good idea to defund PP, then support other clinics, or replace it with a new organization to support women health and contraceptives, sans ANY abortion methods.

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chase_gw

Difference between invasive I choose and invasive others choose for me. .....a and ann vaginal ultrasounds are most definitely invasive !

In Canada PP offers referrals to adoption service as well as counseling re abortions. They don't do abortions as far as I know. Abortions are mainly performed in hospitals and are covered by universal health care.

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Ann

Jhug, I wasn't aware of the adoption vs abortion ratio in their annual report. I find that sad and upsetting.

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Nothing Left to Say

It's a good idea to defund PP, then support other clinics, or replace it with a new organization to support women health and contraceptives, sans ANY abortion methods.

If you think this is a good idea, why would you defund planned parenthood first? Why wouldn't you put this alternative into place first? Your stated order creates a substantial gap in the services you say should be provided.

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momj47(7A)

And is anyone doing that, palisades?

No, because the RWEx don't want to support women's reproductive health and contraception. The RWEx "lawmakers" have made that very clear.

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momj47(7A)

Adoption & Foster Care Statistics

427,910 children in foster care FY2015

111,820 children waiting to be adopted

62,378 children waiting to be adopted whose parental rights (for all
living parents) were terminated during FY

53,549 children adopted with public welfare agency involvement.

If abortion is banned, you can add many of those 300,000 children to the 428,000 already in foster care?

But, of course, the RWEx "lawmakers" will no doubt cut funding to public welfare agencies. After all, we need to build a wall.

And we know foster care can be a dead end for far too many children who, when they age out, end up homeless, on the streets of our cites and towns.

And many of the girls are raped, and become pregnant.....................................

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azmom

"interpret it to mean that only 3% of the people who go into Planned Parenthood have an abortion. That is not true."

jlhug,

No I disagree.

Why people would interpret the statistic as only 3% of the people who go into PP have an abortion when the report is clearly spelled out it is 3% of the services?

Please do not insult others' intelligence level.

Of course, mis-interpreting could happen, for those who do not have basic reading comprehension skill, or who deliberately try to sabotage PP's services to fit their agenda, such as some posters on this thread.

Added:

"Why is the ratio of adoptions to abortions in the Planned Parenthood annual report so low? 2024 adoption referrals vs. 323,999 abortions"

Perhaps adoptions were handled by other channels, perhaps the abortions are associated with unhealthy pregnancies, perhaps......etc. Again, no one knows the circumstances of each pregnancy and the thought processes lead to the conclusion of abortion better than the pregnant woman herself, why do you believe anyone could make a better decision for her, especially by the ones themselves could not read the annual report without mis-interpreting it.

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Kathy

Ann, why is a vaginal sound necessary when a regular one suffices? Have you ever had one? The whole point is to make it more difficult.

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palisades_

why would you defund planned parenthood first? Why wouldn't
you put this alternative into place first?

The alternatives are already existed, at local levels, as I
wrote “then support other clinics”.
Better yet, establish a new national organization so funding can be
better distributed.

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Kathy

Palisades....the whole point is to shift the money for PP into For profit clinics....is that your objective?

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momj47(7A)

Better yet, establish a new national organization so funding can be better distributed.

Big government sticking it's Big G nose into a woman's uterus?

Why reinvent the wheel, when we've already got good wheels.

Very few women have ever been forced to have an abortion, only if they got pregnant by a RW "lawmaker".

Otherwise, women have a choice.

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Nothing Left to Say

No, the alternatives do not exist. Witness what happened when Texas defunded Planned Parenthood.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-planned-parenthood-texas-births-20160203-story.html

And again, go ahead and establish a new national organization. Do it first. Otherwise you are just creating a gap in services. Reducing access to birth control increases the abortion rate. That's being anti-life.

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jlhug

Azmom

Elizabeth Warren at about 4:25 in this video says 3% of patients go to planned parenthood for abortions. She is a fairly smart individual and "bought" the disinformation.

Planned parenthood uses that 3% of all services without clarifying what constitutes a service and how many services a patient receives at a visit. Yes, they aren't lying when they use that static but they are giving a false impression on the percent of women who actually receive an abortion.

The only way to find out what 3% of services really means is to go to the annual report which I doubt that many people do. I've never seen Planned Parenthood explain how it counts services anywhere but the annual report. I read financial reports on organizations I consider donating to so I have some assurance that my money will actually go to help people and not line someone's pockets.

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azmom

jlhug,

Elizabeth Warren has done hundred and thousand right things, there is no need to use this one incidence to prove your point that "People would mis-read the report".

From your postings, we could see you are a smart individual, I bet you know the examples and scenarios you gave do not meet standard practices of interpreting data in business, Scientific and Engineering fields. I happen to have academic background and years of working experience in these fields.

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jodik_gw

I hear you, Jennifer... and a big part of the problem is that police can't really do anything until after actual abuse takes place, or during if they can actually get there while the abuser is in the act. The abuser can threaten all they want, and keep the victim locked in a state of constant paranoia and fear for their life... but until something actually happens, there's nothing legally to be done. And by that time, it may be too late.

And an Order of Protection is just a piece of paper. True, it's a step that needs to be taken to get the ball rolling with regard to a paperwork trail that helps prove a case... but it does nothing to protect the victim(s).

~~~

I would have to agree regarding the use of fetal tissue, much like I'm an organ donor in case something catastrophic might happen to me... after death occurs, there's no valid reason to NOT make use of tissue that could help someone live a better quality of life, or save their life. All propaganda aside, I think it's a wonderful program.

~~~

This is sort of off topic, but I've mentioned this before a time or two...

As retired canine breeders, we're very much against the idea of spay/neuter, and we have very valid reasons for thinking this way.

First, much like a machine with moving parts does not function well when some of those parts are removed, so the body does not function optimally when a system it requires is removed. Modern veterinarians will ply people with the notion that spay/neuter lengthens life span, but that is a false notion. It actually shortens life span. And yes, we've studied this extensively. The veterinary industry makes a fortune spaying and neutering pets quite unnecessarily.

Second, and more importantly, our domesticated canine friends only experience two short bouts annually where they are in a position to become pregnant. It is not that difficult to take responsibility and separate that animal from others for the duration of those two short, annual cycles.

Human females who have hysterectomies performed have the option of taking synthetic hormones to replace those lost through such a procedure... canines do not, as far as I am aware. This leaves them at a distinct disadvantage.

What I find to be quite shameful is how the public spays or neuters their pets out of sheer convenience, so they don't have to take responsibility for keeping their pets separated while in heat... or they don't have to deal with the spotting from females that is a normal part of it.

Modern advances include panties made especially for female dogs, in all sizes, with easy to use velcro side closures and a hole for the tail built right in, in which one would place a feminine napkin to help keep carpet, flooring, and furniture clean. One would simply change the pads on a regular basis, and remove the panties when taking the dog out to do its duty. It couldn't be simpler, or more healthy for the dog.

It is shameful that we have to recommend spay/neuter in this day and age because of what are human failures.

~~~

And I'm wondering why someone would not consider an abortion for a beloved pet should the pregnancy be accidental, happening to a dog too young to be bred and/or have serious consequences and be life-threatening for that animal, or for the embryos she carries?

I would absolutely consider such a thing... and for several very valid reasons. If there were a problem with the fetuses... if the pregnancy would result in loss of my female... if the pregnancy were an accident and the female too young... etc.

But then, I would support the choice of any human female to have an abortion if that's what she wanted. Her reasons are personal, and are very much her own. Who am I to dictate her morality?

~~~

Getting back to Planned Parenthood... It's all too obvious the propaganda machine is still spinning... still spitting out lies for the anti-life, anti-choice crowd to repeat, rinse, and repeat again.

Every individual is free to hold the opinion they do on the issue of abortion... but how dare they try to dictate the morality and choices of another human being! Abortion in this nation is a safe and simple procedure, BECAUSE it's legal and regulated!

Taking away that legality will NOT stop abortions from taking place... it will simply send it all back underground where it used to be, and we'll go back to the days of coat hangers and dirty, non-sterile equipment, where women die from what is a very benign medical procedure.

~~~

If you want to lower the number of abortions, the solution is quite simple... support early, in depth sex education and the availability of free or affordable birth control.

Abandon the ludicrous notion that 'abstinence' is a workable solution, because we know it's not.

Studies we've posted in the past show the logistics of higher numbers of abortions... and they occur in higher numbers where sex education is not taught, or not taught in a truthful manner... where birth control and std's are not part of that education... where birth control is not made available... and where the idea of abstinence as birth control is taught.


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jlhug

Azmom, I edited my comments after you posted. Elizabeth Warren is a smart lady. If she is deceived by the "3% of services", it stands to reason that others are deceived as well.

I've seen the 3% of services posted here multiple times. No one has clarified that each patient receives multiple services or how Planned Parenthood counts services.

The only reason I found that close to 13% of Planned Parenthood patients receive abortions was because I was reading the annual report while trying to decide whether or not I wanted to donate money to them.

How many posters here have read and analyzed the Planned Parenthood annual report?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

As usual, lots of arguments made based on false beliefs.

Here are a few FACTS about abortion, based on the latest stats available from the CDC:

"Compared with 2012, the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions for 2013 decreased 5%. Additionally, from 2004–2013, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 20%, 21%, and 17%, respectively. In 2013, all three measures reached their lowest level for the entire period of analysis (2004-2013)." (SOURCE)

And here is some additional factual info., in case you were wondering:

  • The majority of abortions in 2013 took place early in gestation: 91.6% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation;

  • a smaller number of abortions (7.1%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation,

  • and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.

Those percentages are roughly the same as they have always been under Roe v Wade, except that a new and earlier viability date is being used here: viability at 20 weeks. That is a figure no medical authorities accept. It is a purely political date invented by the "pro-life" political forces. If the recognized medical date is used--namely, viability at 24 weeks--then the percentages come out more like --

  • Over 91% during first trimester (first 12 weeks)
  • Over 8% during second trimester (up until the viability date of 24 weeks)
  • Less than 1% during the third trimesters (after the viability date of 24 weeks)

And just so everyone remembers correctly, 3rd trimester abortions are allowed only for rape, incest, and health/life of woman issues, with the health/life of woman issues being by far the major reason for the extremely rare 3rd trimester abortions.

Every time we get a wave of new posters from the right, all the same mis-information is posted again ( and again and again). So here is the CORRECT information posted again (and again and again).

And by the way, the Supreme Court says you are entitled to your private opinion and I am entitled to my private opinion, so you should not be passing laws about abortion that dictate what I must believe. Abortion is LEGAL, according to the Supreme Court. Your private opinion and my private opinion on this issue are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.

Kate

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jillinnj

I don't think abortion should be against the law, but I'd like to see a decrease in the number of abortions

Glad to hear that! That's not the impression I've gotten from your previous posts, but I'm very happy to hear that's how you feel.

You do know, that is exactly how pro-choice people feel?

It's also exactly what PP would like to see. Free birth control for anyone that wants it, which will reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

And, aside from the abortion issue, as has been said over and over again, PP provides very important health care provided to poor women that have no other way to get it.

For those that say the government can just fund other places, that's complete BS. In many MANY places in the US, PP is the only option. Closing those clinics will hurt millions of women.

Just because you made a hasty decision you now regret, does not give you the right to impose your views on other women.

Vaginal ultrasounds are extremely invasive. An ultrasound of any kind is not a medically necessary treatment for a pregnant women deciding on abortion. Forcing a women to have one is just a punishment you're trying to enforce on them because of your personal beliefs.

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jillinnj

If I were to comment as you have chosen to, would I refer to you as an anti-life person?

Funny comment from someone that hasn't decided how they feel about the death penalty. So, you're really only "pro-life" when you want to be. When it fits the agenda. Got it.

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jillinnj

Kathy, you do realize that an abortion is an invasive procedure?


Actually, most are not invasive. But, as chase pointed out, it's a choice. Nobody is forced to have an invasive abortion (if past the point where meds can do it). But, forcing a women to have a vaginal ultrasound for no medical reason is just fine and dandy.


So ridiculous.


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Ann

Kathy, I don't think either kind of ultrasound is invasive (only my opinion). Yes, I've had both kinds and think both are very easy procedures.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Vaginal sonograms are not invasive?!?

SMDH

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chase_gw

ANN, I am assuming you had a vaginal ultrasound at your choice...no one made you. I too have had one. ..right up their with an pap smear.....invasive

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

As far as PP is concerned, you can parse those percentages however you want, but the FACT remains that PP's main function is to provide birth control (like birth control pills or IUDs, etc.) and related services (like testing for pap smears and sexually transmitted diseases, etc.) to poor women.

Abortion has never been the main service offered by PP. Most PPs do NOT offer abortion services, but instead REFER the patient/client to an abortion provider.

Kate

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jillinnj

I don't think either kind of ultrasound is invasive (only my opinion). Yes, I've had both kinds and think both are very easy procedures.

What is your definition of 'invasive'?

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haydayhayday

"Elizabeth Warren at about 4:25 in this video says 3% of patients go to planned parenthood for abortions. She is a fairly smart individual and "bought" the disinformation."

Elizabeth and the rest of her crew, in the same manner, misled us with the claim about how medical issues were causing so many bankruptcies in this country.

Just like you, I went to the original report and looked at it. I studied it.

She lied to us. Or else she's really stupid.

I think she's a liar.

Hay


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chase_gw

When someone places a lubricated device in my vagina and then moves it around in ways that are sometimes uncomfortable and not in my control, I call that invasive. It may be that for my own well being I choose to do that. ...but to be directed to when I don't want to......at the bidding of the government. ..it goes beyond invasive

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Ann

Kate, the opinions of any of us or of politicians are irrelevant if the Supreme Court has made a ruling and, yes, abortion is legal. As far as I know, there is not yet any Supreme Court ruling that prevents government defunding of PP, so the opinions of our politicians on that topic are still very relevant and I imagine they will make a decision on that topic and it will be forthcoming, regardless of your opinion or mine. I guess all we're really debating is what we each hope that decision will be.

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haydayhayday

When Maddie posted that "comment", MY immediate reaction was, maybe, just maybe, Roseberry meant "not at home".

I still don't know, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.

I'm not at all surprised that the usual crew jumped on it.

Hay



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Ann

Jill, my definition is obviously different than yours. I find it hard to believe that any woman who has had sex, visited an OB/Gyn, delivered a baby, or reached the age of menstruation could be traumatized by an ultrasound. I think it's a game of hype.

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Ann

Hay, I thought the exact same thing as you.

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SandyC.
Ann, do not call a person who supports a women's right to choose, anti life. The term is PRO CHOICE. I have had a blessed life, I am a life saver, a person who has worked with women and babies my entire career. I now volunteer my services in the community and donate generously to women and children's charities.
Just because a person regrets having an abortion it is not up to YOU and the religious zealots to judge another family's choice.It is an individuals decision that PP helps with guidance and options.
Until you mention one evidence of support for unwed mothers and children living in poverty, with no health care and no food stamps, school lunch programs, and no public assistance, stop whining about lazy people who in your all knowing judgment don't deserve government assistance, you are a HYPOCRITE!
If you want to see abortions rates decrease, defunding the one agency that offers poor women contraceptive services will not affect the abortion rate. Various hospitals and clinics will continue to offer services, but health care workers will be at increased risk of being murdered by religious zealot criminals who bomb clinics and doctors residences, with this continual anti woman rhetoric.
Let's talk about ways to stop abortions, by helping to lift people out of the cycle of poverty, instead of turning your nose up to them as if they were second class citizens and not deserving of equal care and rights.
As women, we need to resist this incoming cabinet of old white, racist, misogynistic, southern men, who want to take us back to the 1950s, and take away women's rights we fought so hard for, to ensure our daughters had a better life.
Luckily, the religious hypocrites are a minority, but as I said, to appease this minority the Koch cartel will try to do the one thing that brings them out to vote:the ever lasting quest to get rid of Roe v Wade. Hopefully it will never happen, but it keeps them supporting the Wall Street crooks and liars.
This administration is going to see resistance like we have never seen. There will be an uprising of young women who are not going to see rights, their moms and grandmothers fought for, be taken away by these old white men!
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azmom

jlhug,

Due to my professional trainings, I am a deliberate type when reading articles and reports (not necessary a good habit at times). I did gave some thoughts on this report.

I think it matters to judge by number of services vs patients, as pregnancy/abortion is not only caused by one gender, or one physical moment. It is related to a slew of factors such as life circumstances, personal situations/conditions, decision makings...etc. Any services to better equip both genders would lead to a healthy, desired pregnancy.

My problem with RW is they want to control others only based on their own interests. To make things worse is over the years, they have not demonstrated any intelligence and compassion; it is obvious that dumbing down general public is the easiest path to fulfill their agenda.

I applaud your pondering over make donation to PP. I know in this year I will not as I am contributing my money to STEM causes especially for women/girls, my time to one of the best hospitals, if not THE best hospital in the USA, both are my top priorities.

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momj47(7A)

"my pets are my family"

A hundred thousand children are waiting to be adopted

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sunflower_petal(5a)

If you truly want to see fewer abortions in this country then you don't want to defund PP under Medicare. Period.

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jillinnj

Exactly, sunflower. So, either they're really dumb and don't understand that defunding PP will lead to more unwanted pregnancies, or they're lying.


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momj47(7A)

Defunding Planned Parenthood has more to do with denying women the right to make any reproductive choices - contraception, sterilization etc.

Abortion is just what they use to hide their real agenda.

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SandyC.
The evangelical hypocrites pick and choose who in their almighty judgment are deserving of life. A zygote, is more deserving than a mother with six kids living on $20,000/ year. The GOP have no qualms of denying medical care to sick babies, children with disabilities, the elderly and mentally ill, because NO government entitlements should come out of their taxes.
We have come so far from the Nixon and Reagan years, in terms of forms of contraception. Now with the patch and other long term forms of contraception, the unplanned pregnancy rate has decreased dramatically.
Defending a woman's only source of health care in poor rural( predominantly red ) states is the most arcane, sexist, racist, form of discrimination our government can will do.
These bigots will go down in history as the old, southern (Sessions) racist, white guys who tried to strip women of their rights.
Next will be voting rights and gerrymandering, as they move forward with the Koch agenda.
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ann_t

I think that they know exactly what defunding PP will lead to and they are lying, but that doesn't exclude being dumb too.

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jillinnj

Defending a woman's only source of health care in poor rural( predominantly red ) states is the most arcane, sexist, racist, form of discrimination our government can will do.

THIS!!

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jillinnj

I think that they know exactly what defunding PP will lead to and they are lying, but that doesn't exclude being dumb too.

The politicians are lying. Those that believe them are dumb.

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haydayhayday

Where are you hanging out this Winter, Chase?

Florida?

Hay




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haydayhayday

Maddie AtHome:

"Conservatives Wreaking Havoc Again:


Police have confirmed that they are treating an incident at


Berlin’s Breitscheidplatz on Monday night as a “presumed terrorist


attack”"

Hay


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chase_gw

.....and your point would be ?

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Ann

Ann, do not call a person who supports a women's right to choose, anti life. The term is PRO CHOICE

Sandy, do you care to go back and review that portion of the conversation? If you do, you'll see I was asking Sunflower if she thought it would be appropriate for me to use anti-life as she had chosen to use anti-choice (rather than the common pro-life term). Do you have any suggestions for Sunflower (if one would say "do not...." is a suggestion rather than an order:)? Do you recognize I didn't call anyone anti life? I did find Sunflower's terminology odd, and I also did wonder if she felt I should do the same. Again, do you care to go back and read before giving your orders? Then, if you feel the need to issue orders, maybe you should direct them at the person using the terms in the unusual way rather than giving orders to a person simply noticing the odd terminology of another but choosing to not reciprocate with like terminology. You just may have been a little quick to place judgment on the wrong person in this situation, since you are taking issue with the proper or common use of terminology.

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chase_gw

I am personally anti abortion in that it is not a CHOICE I think I could make. However , it is not my place, or my right , to tell another woman, whose circumstances I don't understand ,what her CHOICE should be.

Therfore I am PRO CHOICE. ......and damn proud of it.

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haydayhayday

"and your point would be ?"

You in Florida this year?

Hay

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chase_gw

...and your point would be ?

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purrmichigan(5)

I wonder if the number of people suffering without medical care, or the children who have debilitating diseases are distressing to Pro-life people

Stands to reason, doesn't it. All this hand wringing over abortion, yet not a word about people suffering. Unless it's to denigrate the poor. Those that would take away PP funding are so ironically the same that want to take away social supports like food stamps and basic health care.

You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. If you believe a fetus is a human life and you desperately want to "save" it, then why don't you desperately want to save people who are poor, disabled, need health insurance, need food?

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haydayhayday

Just checking to see if you lied to us.

You in Florida this Winter?

Hay

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momj47(7A)

would be appropriate for me to use anti-life as she had chosen to use anti-choice

But you are anti-choice, and everyone is pro-life. EVERYONE

The difference between the anti-choice people, and the rest of us, is that the rest of us support human life from beginning to end - newborns, babies, children, teens, 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, etc.

The anti-choice people only care about fetuses.

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Ann

Are you wanting to change the PP topic to the topic of children with debilitating diseases? I imagine you'll be able to generate conversation here or on another thread if you want to discuss that topic.

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palisades_

Again and again, there is no such term as pro-choice, but
PRO ABORTION. People don’t go to doctor office
to check how their fetus, ahem, baby, is doing. People don’t ask, how is your
fetus doing. But when it comes to destroying a life, it’s just a fetus, a clump
of cells, inanimate object.

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ann_t

Well Ann, if you would restrict a woman's right to choose (except for
yourself of course) than you are anti-choice. It is simple as that. No
spitting hairs.

No one is "pro abortion" . I'm
pro-choice. I would never try and tell another woman what her choice
should be or try and prevent her from having a choice.

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haydayhayday

While we're waiting for Chase to figure out where she is...

While we're waiting for Maddie to tell us how she knew, before anyone else in the world had a clue, that the killer was a Conservative...

While we're waiting, maybe we can get Maddie to tell us who is doing all the killing in Chicago;


"High black criminality myth has been debunked long ago."


Hay

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purrmichigan(5)

Actually that's not correct. Doctors usually use the correct terminology.

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purrmichigan(5)

Why would you be "waiting" for anyone here to say where they are? That's intrusive and inappropriate. I'd no more tell you where I am than I would to talk or brag about my family members. It's NYB.

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SandyC.
Ann, we know your opinion on children with debilitating diseases. We have discussed the ACA at nauseam. You suggested people who receive YOUR tax money for health insurance or Medicaid in your all knowing " opinion" should receive longer wait times or better yet, use ERs like they used to, or better yet,have the many charitable people in this country help!
You have made your point well known, you don't agree with government entitlements.
I explained when a child is admitted to a hospital, we don't check what type of insurance they have. When a patient needs a heart transplant, it is not one of the criteria we check! This is not Russia.
The fact is many people that care for a disabled child, or one with a chronic illness, and the elderly are living below the poverty level.
"There, but for the grace of God go I"
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Kathy

Sandy, I hope you don't mind if I add....the people go home with a huge bill if they have no insurance. Somehow the Republicans think you go to emergency and it's free. No, if it requires surgery or intensive care you can go bankrupt.

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haydayhayday



"If he becomes the candidate I will never visit any state that he wins . I could not imagine being in a place with so many ignorant, hate filled , angry people."


Hay

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ann_t

Shameful that this is what happens in the great US of A.

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purrmichigan(5)

Those medical bills have ruined families. The family I wrote about above with a schizophrenic child and the medical and institutional bills were too much for them. The debt affected their own health and their marriage. No one should have medical bills that bankrupt them. There's no reason to in a first world country with all our resources.

My couple of trips to ER where I read the bold signs that say in effect: Emergency Room care is limited to stabilizing the patient. So, until ACA patients got stop gap treatment and went home with lingering illnesses.

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Kathy

That sign means also mentally ill are treated and released....unless they have a mental facility at the hospital and many of those are now gone.

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chase_gw

I said that and meant it when I said it. Unfortuanetly we have assets that must be dealt with and money that was spent never imagining he would win.

Luckily we are in a decidedly liberal enclave mostly made up of Brits and Canadians. We have some tough decisions to make. At least I have choices.

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SandyC.
"People don't go to the doctor to see how their fetus is doing" Yes they do!
This is anti choice, hypocritical, rhetoric.
First zygote, then embryo, then fetus. A fetus and a neonate are interchangeable.
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petalique

The evangelical hypocrites pick and choose who in their almighty judgment are deserving of life. A zygote, is more deserving than a mother with six kids living on $20,000/ year. The GOP have no qualms of denying medical care to sick babies, children with disabilities, the elderly and mentally ill, because NO government entitlements should come out of their taxes.

(My bold for emphasis)

Right. Distorted values, IMO.

I and many other taxpayers have an increased burden because churches -- some very anti-(full)-life are tax-exempt. They don't contribute to the tax burden, yet they have way too much to say in the political realm of deeming (claiming) a zygote is worthy, but a disastrously deformed, mangled infant cannot be rewarded medical assistance or support. Death penalty? No problem. Children and families without housing or who are hungry? They can fend for themselves, join a church and cross their tiny fingers.

Today, I had CBS "Meet the Press" on low while cleaning a room. Some GOP/RW woman was whining about ACA and how some MEN did not want have to pay (via premium) for "birth control services" that they (ta "men") didn't need or use. (Whew! For real.) I guess conservatives have no issue or don't notice that twisted logic.

Hmm. And why would women want/need birth control services? Where do babies come from, again? (You put the lime in the coconut....)

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SandyC.
Yes, Kathy, that was discussed too. The ACA has allowed millions of people, the low income, people who are just above the FPL and don't qualify for Mecicaid, have affordable insurance. Before the ACA, if they didn't have insurance they owed cash. This is the reason they did not seek diagnostic, preventative care, but waited until an emergency arose.
Diseases that could have been treated or prevented with routine health care, could have been avoided.
There is a reason, poor people have higher incidences of chronic diseases, and higher death rates.
As a civilized country we rank higher than many countries in infant mortality. We are the only western country that does not have health care for all citizens.
It is not only a huge reason our hospital costs are so high, it is also a public health risk.
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haydayhayday

"chase_gw:

Maddie, you never cease to amaze me .....great catch.

Rosemary is lying on one post or the other....likely this one. Matters not she lied ,credibility gone

....now let's talk about the attributes of a Christian again ....

...........................................

Maddie AtHome

Thanks Chase!

Tall tales, make them up as they go. Gotta love it.


..................................................

chase_gw

Roseberry, don't blame Maddie for your dishonesty . You were the one who chose to lie in order to move your personal agenda. Sorta like that guy you voted for. ..."

Hay

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ann_t

Hay don't you have a dance to go to?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Reduction in PP providing general services = reduced birth control education = more unplanned pregnancies = more abortions.

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SandyC.
The issue of charging more for women's health insurance is being proposed by the GOP. This is how it used to be. Before the ACA, we took our 20 year old daughter off of our private insurance because her premiums were sky high, because she was of child bearing age. I was not of child bearing years, so my rates were not as high. There was absolute discrimination according to sex and age. Our rates could be changed at the whim of Blue Cross.
The ACA has protected all those with insurance, whether you are using an exchange, have private, government or employer insurance.
The laws to make insurance companies offer quality insurance was applied to all of us. We now have, no denial for pre existing, no lifetime cap, mental health coverage, routine well care coverage., and not charging higher rates for females.
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purrmichigan(5)

While we're waiting for Maddie to tell us how she knew, before anyone else in the world had a clue, that the killer was a Conservative...

Trump ALWAYS knows that it's a terrorist when there's been a shooting.. Right away goes to Twitter to announce his opinion.

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chase_gw

Hay, I did not lie. I meant what I said at the time I said it. But have at it if it makes your buttons burst.....,,.

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jodik_gw

Why does it matter where Chase is right now? She's a welcome, respected and legitimate member of this forum, and has been for a long time.

~~~

As it's been said before... no one is PRO-abortion; but many people are PRO-CHOICE.

Morals are subjective... and many of us really resent the judge and jury mentality just because we don't want others controlling our reproductive parts or forcing their brand of morality on us!


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purrmichigan(5)

Maternal mortality in Texas doubled in 2011 & 2012 - right after they slashed funding for Planned Parenthood. http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/C

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rgreen48(7a)

"Morals are subjective..."

This depends on one's working definition.

Especially when dealing with principles, just because a person or group doesn't know what is right and wrong, doesn't mean there isn't an objective right and wrong.

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Ann

Texas began defunding Planned Parenthood in 2011. I'll keep looking for more up to date data covering 2014-2016, but the number of abortions in Texas in 2010 was 77,592 vs 72,470 in the first year of removal. The number in 2012 (when Medicaid abortion funding was removed) was 68,298 and when the funds were fully pulled in 2013, the abortion number was 62,849. IMO, that's a great trend. Sounds like about 15,000 baby's lives per year are now being saved in one state alone.

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Ann

Texas numbers for 2014 were 54,902.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Sure if you reduce the ability to get an abortion (i.e., fewer providers, farther apart) then you will get fewer abortions as measured by that location. What you're not measuring are things like:

- abortions performed in other states (because the person traveled there)

- illegal abortions

- increased births (and all the possible things that can happen afterwards: adoption, murder (yes that happens when people get desperate), raising a child on public assistance, raising the child, etc.)

- people that move to another state (for whatever reason)

All you've got is one number and that tells so little about the whole story.


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Ann

In the 4 year period between 2010 and 2014, approximately 600 women died from maternal mortality in Texas (following the PP funding changes) and the rate of maternal mortality did double as PM pointed out.

A death of a mother or a child is very unfortunate, but a rough estimate would indicate that in a 4 year period, approximately 300 mothers have died that might not have died had Texas not changed PP funding and approximately 24,000 babies have lived due to the same change in PP funding.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

You have no way of knowing how many additional babies have been born as a result of that change or if they are still alive.

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Kathy

In many states a large percentage of births are funded by Medicaid. If you had a choice to pay for an increase in Medicaid or the morning after pill what would be the choice? Texas 54% are Medicaid funded. In Arkansas 67%. Then they may have to be subsidized for life as wages in those states are low. That's why the births are subsidized.yet they vote Republican. I don't get it.

eta..now think about getting rid of PP and denying women birthcontrol options.

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SandyC.
Ann, are you really that misinformed or naive, or do you just like to seem you are? By your tone and your comments, you come off as a hard hearted, cold, judgmental, evangelical Christian, who is jumping for joy because women, men and children have been denied basic health care coverage, in the poor, rural parts of the state. Of course women will have to travel to other states for abortions, but many may just kill themselves, or cause massive sepsis or infertility with a coat hanger, yippee, less abortions! Who hoo. What a thing to be proud of.
Hypocrisy and shear disdain for the poor. Instead of supporting the very clinics that provide contraception and education both for men and women, they shut it down.
Statistics have nothing to do with reality. The GOP can feel really proud of themselves because of some scewed statistics They can go to congress and pound their chests and brag about defunding PP services, for thousands of poor women, men and children, what heros!
Remember this has to be carried out or the GOP, Koch cartel will lose their evangelical support.
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elvis

Second, and more importantly, our domesticated canine friends only experience two short bouts annually where they are in a position to become pregnant. It is not that difficult to take responsibility and separate that animal from others for the duration of those two short, annual cycles.

Isn't that something, Jodik?

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purrmichigan(5)

I'm done with statistics. They can be twisted in either direction and I'm not going to spend the time needed to verify every last detail.

People who claim they care about babies but want to cut off essential and basic health care, food and social services and/or want to regulate them according to their will and judgment are hypocrites.

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Kathy

I bet if women cut off men except two times a year thing would be different...lol

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SandyC.
Ann your statistics are so off it's alarming. You are finding them to support a VERY biased view. Just because a few less abortions were performed, you have NO idea if those women went on to have live births. If they had premature deliveries, if they had stillborn, if they died from sepsis, diabetes, hypertension,, hemorrhage, chicken pox, HIV, hepatitis, asphyxia, prolapsed cord, placenta previa.
You have no idea if these women had a live viable birth. You can pick and choose data, but it is not conclusive, period.
Denying medical care is wrong.
,
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elvis

jillinnj

Kathy, you do realize that an abortion is an invasive procedure?

Actually, most are not invasive.

jillinnj

I don't think either kind of ultrasound is invasive (only my opinion). Yes, I've had both kinds and think both are very easy procedures.

What is your definition of 'invasive'?

_________

Hey, jillin. What's your definition of "invasive"?

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SandyC.
It is alarming the states that treat women as second class citizens by denying them care are mostly red states, that MY state funds. Many latinos in Texas may vote just on the abortion rhetoric, and lies, being Catholic.
They may be brainwashed by the rhetoric of the GOP defunding PP, meanwhile they never funded abortions. Trump fooled everybody, he knew he needed the evangelicals,just wait till they loose their healthcare.
Does anybody truly think Trump cares about abortions?
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elvis

chase_gw

"If he becomes the candidate I will never visit any state that he wins . I could not imagine being in a place with so many ignorant, hate filled , angry people."

"I said that and meant it when I said it. Unfortuanetly [sic] we have assets that must be dealt with and money that was spent never imagining he would win. Luckily we are in a decidedly liberal enclave mostly made up of Brits and Canadians."

We avoid those.

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purrmichigan(5)

http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/watch/sanders-i-want-to-revitalize-democratic-party-850223683684

Great interview with Bernie. Much about the upcoming weekend of protests and marches. Warmer temps predicted for my area, thankfully.


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chase_gw

"We avoid those."

And we are grateful you do. ..........

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SandyC.

Chase, come to California! We love tourists and of course especially Canadians.

Our good old governor, Jerry supports everybody.

We have a lot of wealth injected in our state from immigrants and tourists.

They are our lifeblood :)

Hit the dirty rats where they will feel it, in their pocketbook. The only thing that matters to the billionaire, white, racist club.

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Ann

Kathy, you're incorrect. In Elvis's post where you then said Jill was quoting me both times, the top quote was not from any of my comments.

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Kathy

I'm sorry about that Ann, i will delete my comment

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Kathy

I see where the top quote was jlhug

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jodik_gw

Where morality is concerned, rgreen, there's a lot of grey area outside of specific dogmatic beliefs or tenets... therefore, morals are subjective.

For example, I see nothing morally wrong in working within the sex industry, if one is a consenting adult.

I see nothing morally wrong in being a free sexual being regardless of gender or marital status.

I see nothing morally wrong in using what might be termed "curse words" frequently and as punctuation within sentence structure.

I see nothing morally wrong in equal civil rights for all, including my brothers and sisters within the lgbt community... and in fact, I demand that equality.

I see nothing morally wrong in the personal choice to terminate an early, unwanted pregnancy.

I see nothing morally wrong in many things that would make a lot of people gasp and grab for their chests in mock heart attack!

What I cannot abide are liars, thieves and cheats... unjustified killing or harm to others... avarice, a lack of ethical behavior, a lack of integrity, dishonesty... and more.

I cannot abide self-righteousness, entitlement, unfair opportunity, selfishness, superiority - whether because of class, race, ethnicity, sexual preference, etc...

I cannot abide inequality, patriarchy, misogyny, racism, bigotry or prejudices, discrimination, etc...

~~~

What you might find morally reprehensible, I might not have an issue with. I hold to a strict code of honor... and I'm fairly certain that while my moral compass points in the correct direction, I am still human and I am prone to err. It is unavoidable. But I do the best I can, and apologize for my shortcomings, knowing that lessons can be learned from mistakes made,

Yes, morals are subjective.




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lily316

I haven't read all of this very long thread but was it mentioned that Trump wanted Marla to abort Tiffany? Was it mentioned he gave to PP all the time and even attended their events and balls? Freaking hypocrite.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I'd forgotten that Trump had suggested Marla have an abortion, instead she has a daughter named Tiffany. Her choice, and I respect her right to make it.

A balance between what *you* would personally do in your life and accepting that others have just as much right to decide what *they* want to do personally in their life - you don't try to decide for them and they don't try to decide for you - that is what freedom is.

PP isn't forcing anyone to have abortions they do provide them to women who come in requesting one but abortions are just a small portion of the services they provide, and we shouldn't be ok with the right trying to prevent anyone/everyone from choosing to have an abortion by taking the decision/option away, along with all the other services PP provides!

The saddest thing is how many women are of the opinion that only *they* should be allowed control over their bodies and when/how many children they have - but poor women don't deserve such rights. I hope their consciences keep them awake at night for being so judgmental and denying less fortunate women from the privilege of their ivory towers.

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Nothing Left to Say

When abortion providers are unavailable, women are more likely to seek abortions from unlicensed and unqualified providers. How are you accounting for those?

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momj47(7A)

I'd forgotten that Trump had suggested Marla have an abortion, instead she has a daughter named Tiffany. Her choice, and I respect her right to make it.

I have NO respect for Trump's "suggestion", or for Trump, for that matter.

I wonder how many never-born Trump "babies" there are?

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

...Which is why I said "Instead she has a daughter"...

She made the choice that she felt was the right one for her. Would I have had a child with him? Not for all the money and fancy stuff in the world. But she's an adult woman who can make choices for herself.

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jodik_gw

Jennifer, it appears that the mindset of "it's okay for me because I can afford it, and too bad for you because you can't" bleeds over into all areas of healthcare... and is not subject to abortion, alone.

Abortion is just one of more controversial procedures... and is seemingly more so within religious belief, and forbidden by most religious belief systems.

~~~

The odd thing is... if you watch Leah Remini's series on scientology, it is noted quite clearly that in some of the living/work accommodations provided by the cult for their workers... which resemble prison compounds... pregnancy is not allowed... not even married couples in some of their camps are allowed to have children.

At the first sign of a possible pregnancy, the woman is taken to her "overseer", forced to urinate on a pregnancy test stick in front of her, and if the results are positive, an immediate appointment is made to abort the embryo/fetus.

A few of the women interviewed confessed to having many abortions... not that they wanted to, but they were convinced by their belief system that they were doing the right thing, the necessary thing.

Only married couples who do not live and live/work within the scientology compounds are allowed to procreate... and that's because the hierarchy has less control over the common parishioners who simply attend lectures and classes, and buy the books and taped seminars and other materials.

If you haven't seen the series, I highly suggest it... it's fascinating, and very saddening. It made me angry to watch, and to find out what is being done to this group of people who began with the simple idea of making their life better, and making the world a better place, but instead were sucked into a very nasty cult that will stop at nothing to protect their reputation, and their fortune.

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rgreen48(7a)

"Where morality is concerned, rgreen, there's a lot of grey area outside
of specific dogmatic beliefs or tenets... therefore, morals are
subjective."

As I said, it depends upon your working definition.

If the standard that you apply is your own perspective, then there will seem to be grey areas, and subjectivity. However, if you find an objective standard, such as principles, you will begin to see where morals are not subjective at all.

What you are discussing is not morality in it's full sense. It is a subset, which might be labeled, 'personal morality'.

Just because any person or group does not know, nor understand, the objective moral standard, that does not mean it doesn't exist.

A person might not know that a law exists against a specific action, but that doesn't mean they aren't breaking the law by engaging in the activity.

That is just an example. Some laws are based on morals (or even principles,) and some aren't.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

@jodik_gw

I've seen the Leah Remini series, I think it's great that she's able to get people to open up about their experiences with Scientology in a way that truly reaches viewers who might otherwise scoff and think such insane out-there stuff must be at least partially 'for show' and that the stories are being exaggerated. Explaining to the audience how these individuals could have gotten into such a cult but not in a way that makes the former scientologists feel like they're being ridiculed in the process is a challenge that Leah handles very successfully and with obvious empathy.

However, Scientology is a fraud, masquerading as a religion while basically operating like a MLM/ponzi scheme. They get people to give them their entire lives but when they reach retirement age they're thrown out onto the street instead of getting a pension or even qualifying for social security. L Ron Hubbard was a pathological liar, David Miscavidge is that and a greedy, hateful man.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Reduction in PP providing general services = reduced birth control education = more unplanned pregnancies = more abortions.

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Ann

That doesn't appear to be what happened in Texas.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Appear" is right. Because you don't have all the information. You think 24,000 pregnancies will turn into 24,000 young adults. You don't know what happened to those pregnancies, do you?

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Ann

No, I don't, but I do know how many abortions were performed in Texas 2010-2014 and that number dropped substantially as PP funds were removed. You asserted "= more abortions" and that is factually not what happened in Texas. Exactly the opposite occurred.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Yes and instead of those abortions, perhaps the mother died (illegal abortion), killed herself, killed her child (or allowed her boyfriend to), had a drug-addicted baby, or the abortion happened anyway but in another state.

Not always a happy ending, eh?

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Ann

That's all complete speculation just as your comment ending in "= more abortions" was. You could research and learn if Texas experienced increased suicide among women of child bearing age, if murder of infants increased or if PP abortion rates in neighboring states increased. (I'm not aware if PP even accepts patients from across state lines. Are you?). But, you are just operating on complete (and somewhat dramatic) speculation with no facts or evidence behind it. That's not worth conversation.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

You are also speculating that those 24,000 pregnancies ended up in 24,000 happy, healthy babies. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between us.

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purrmichigan(5)

The morning after pill probably gets used more often.

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SandyC.
It's useless to talk to the bigots and an intolerant conservatives, who have no regard for mothers or babies. We know who they are, they have shown their "values"."That doesn't ' SEEM' to be what happened in Texas". We don't set policies on what " seems" to be true. Fact finding to support a particular bias, is ignorant and hateful.
The intolerant and women haters will not win this one. Many, of my nurse friends are Catholics, and work with mothers and babies.We are not bigots and hypocrites, we stand firm that a women is in charge of her own body.
Defunding medical clinics that support women, babies and dads is the absolute worst thing to do for, infant mortality rates, mothers mortality rates and pregnancy prevention.
No