I would definitely move the fridge to give you more prep space next to your range. With that wide of an aisle, I wouldn't think it would be efficient to use the island as a prep space when cooking on the range. Where does the door at the base of the plan lead to? Looks like powder room and pantry? You will be getting a lot of traffic through the kitchen to get to the powder room unless there is an alternate/more convenient route.

Easier to post a pic of the main floor I think then describe where it goes. To get to powder room it will be through kitchen. Either through the butler pantry or the doorway on bottom left of kitchen going towards laundry/office/mud/pantry area.

Our current kitchen layout has the sink / counter about 6' from cook top. It's not horrible going back and forth, and think the 5' will be ok. We've worked together in friends house with a 48" aisle between island and cook top and the 3rd person coming through (adult or little one) made it crowded.

Thanks

I would move the trash/prep sink to the other side of the island closer to the fridge. Have about 24" of counter on left, then prep sink and trash. Otherwise when you take food out of the fridge, and prep, you'll be crossing zones to bring it to the cooktop.

Your island is way too wide at 6' deep. How will you ever clean the middle of it? You'll have to climb onto it to clean the middle. I would seriously reconsider and make it no more than 5' deep.

I personally prefer a tighter space than you have between island and perimeter, but that's a personal decision and if you're fine with 5' then go with it.

I would seriously consider widening your sink window so it is almost the full length of the wall. Otherwise I think you may not get enough light into the space? (Which direction does that window face?)

I think you're fine with your powder room in that you have the main hallway bisecting the house.

Thanks for the comments. Island length and width is variable. Original drawings had it segmented to show different sizes. I think I remember just putting down the largest that would possibly go there. Hence 6x9 (think that's the largest granite slab you can easily get?)

Window over the sink faces towards the NW. The back wall of the family room is pretty much all windows, as well as the nook that's there. Nook faces N/NE the Family room NW. There are also two more windows on the left side of family room. I will look at making that a wider window though.

Thanks

This might be a stupid question and probably isn't feasible, but for better solar heating and cooling have you considered flipping the house horizontally so your kitchen area faces more east and north vs west? West is the hottest direction and unless you're in the far north, it can be quite unpleasant during warmer months. Now imagine cooking in there.

Yes we looked at it. Shape of lot / footprint of house / and a few other things ended up being the way it is. Trust me, the MBR is on the east side, would much rather it on the west side.

Just curious: Looks like this house is set up for extensive formal entertaining yet it looks like there is one 36" fridge/freezer. Have you considered Sub-Zero, Thermador or Miele columns or a 42" or 48" wide built in unit? Or putting a second 36" fridge/freezer somewhere near the pantry/laundry/office where it is more accessible rather than putting it in the garage or basement?

If you do a lot of baking do you really want to be working in the butlers pantry or would you rather have the mixer cabinet in the main kitchen (maybe in the island).

Why do builders/designers put Dining Rooms so far from Kitchens?????

Is that a "nook" above the Kitchen? If so, you will have three eating places - island, nook, Dining Room...

What are your plans for the empty space b/w the island and stairs?

Have you considered moving the stairs to the other side of the Great Room? Maybe move the Fireplace to the top wall, b/w the windows/doors? Then, open up the wall b/w the Kitchen and Great Room - not necessarily all the way, but at least a much wider opening.

You have a lot of Kitchen space, but not much usable space. The location/size of the Butler's Pantry limits what you can do.

Could we please see a floorplan of the entire floor? It appears to be missing, at least, whatever is above the Kitchen (my assumption is a nook) and the Garage.

Regarding DWs, I strongly recommend sticking to just the two DWs in the main Kitchen that flank the cleanup sink. Otherwise, you cold end up running around trying to find a dish b/c you don't remember which DW you put it in (or someone else put it in). Planning to only put XYZ dishes in each are just that, plans, not reality. The reality is that you will put your dishes in whatever DW they will fit or whichever one is closest to being full so you can run that DW.

A few years ago there was quite a bit of discussion about splitting DWs and the consensus was that splitting them is a mistake.

Do you really plan to use all your appliances, etc., in the Butler's Pantry? If not, then you're going to be lugging them back & forth b/w the Butler's Pantry and the main Kitchen. I would stick with just putting items in the Butler's Pantry that you will use there - like the Tea/Coffee Center & its supplies (coffee, tea, mugs, creamer, sugar). Instead of a DW, consider putting in a refrigerator drawer for creamer, etc.

Unless you plan to use the DR for all your meals, I would not put dishes, etc., in the Butler's Pantry either b/c they will be much too far away from both the main DWs and the Nook that I suspect is above the Kitchen. [You could put your fine china in the Butler's Pantry if you have any and if you only use it in the Dining Room.]

Here's the whole main floor.... I posted the whole house in the house build section as I figured it was more suited for the whole house.

I ended up posting the kitchen here as wife and I were going over it, and stumbled on the forums.

Yes we have considered the larger refrigerators. As said, the appliances are set in stone, and kitchen definitely isn't.

The space between island and stairs, that is cabinets / baking area. So there wouldn't be any backing in butlers pantry.

three eating places, dining room, mostly just formal dinners. Island / Nook for rest of time. We generally don't use island for eating per say, and we prefer morning or informally at a kitchen table.

As to setup to formal entertaining, it's more of us falling into like to a friends very very large house. Somewhat close to same layout, but it was nice where the game could be on in family room / or whatever the kids were watching and playing. And we could sit in Great room/living room and have conversation away from the rest of the noise. We would still gather in kitchen as everyone else seems to, but as to different nights, we would always seem to end up in the LR......was nice away from the kids, but still able to hear/check on them.

Buehl,

DW in Butlers is an error. DW to be each side of main sink. this way, dirty and clean, left and right. Etc, as one is filled and running, you are able to put dirty in the other one. So on and so on.

There isn't going to be any appliances in the BP. The wall inside the kitchen that is the backside of the stairs. That will all be counter top space etc. Baking and appliances there.

Ok, got it! I misunderstood, sorry - that is much better!

Regarding the ovens, I think they would be better located in the Baking Center - they're pretty far from the Baking Center right now. Most likely you will be using the ovens far more from the Baking Center than every day meal prep. If you do, consider splitting them - although you did say the appliances are "set in stone", so I guess you cannot split them.

Just as an FYI, I've discovered that stacked double ovens aren't ideal - at least one is at an awkward height. When we build in a couple of years, we will be purchasing two separate ovens and installing both at the "ideal" height. In our current Kitchen, I wish the lower oven was a bit higher and the upper oven quite a bit lower!

Can you purchase an additional appliance - the refrigerator drawer for the Coffee Center? They're under-counter, so they won't take up baking space. It could also hold things like butter that you use when baking. (Butter is something you could have in both the main refrigerator for meal prep and in the refrigerator drawer for the Baking Center.)

Sorry, it should have said appliances ARE NOT set in stone. We have played with the ovens in baking center by the entrance to the BP. But have fear of traffic through BP with open oven doors.

Already know the deal with buying separate ovens, and we have thought of the idea of one oven by cook top, one oven by baking area.

But I do get what you mean by the different heights, and may look into separating them more.

Regarding traffic, yes...so here is something else to consider:

Have you considered switching the
"Office" and Dining Room and the BP and PR/Closet? So, left to right:

• Pantry, Hall, BP, Closet, PR

• Laundry Room, Hall, Dining Room,
  Office, Foyer, etc.

I would probably consider french doors to the office that can be opened or closed, as desired. Or, pocket doors.

I would also consider making the PR
and Closet a bit deeper – and pushing their top walls to be flush with the BP's
top wall. This will give you more usable
space and no traffic between the island and Baking Center. It will also give you a more spacious PR and Closet.

Edited to add:

It would also make the Office a more pleasant place to work while still being away from the Kitchen, Family Room, etc.

If you plan to put your router in the Office, it will also place it closer to the middle of the house for better wireless signal throughout the house.

How do you use your kitchen? How many cooks and what ages, what sorts of cooking? You have so much space but not much counter prep space. I love a big kitchen, but you want it to work well for your family.

Have to look at it, but idea was to have the living space, mud room kitchen office laundry pantry, all accessible as you walk in from garage. Flip flopping office and DR negates that, but I like the the idea of moving the Butlers to where Powder room is, and maybe moving cooking area etc around some Will have to have designer look at it

2 cooks, and a little one that has to cook while the grown ups are cooking. She's getting better and has actually made something edible now. HA

types of cooking varies all over the place. Quick microwave stuff, to full blown dinners, depends on time and circumstance. Summer time months almost every main dish is grilled, so the kitchen gets relegated to sides etc, unless there is something particular being made.

The issues with switching the PR and BP but not the DR and Office is that now

(1) the BP won't open directly in front of the DR - and you lose better Kitchen/DR access

and

(2) the PR opens in front of the DR doorway - not a pleasant setup!

True, I think the wife wanted the PR as far away from DR and such as possible, but still close to kitchen/family/LR

But wouldn't switching the office/dr and BP through off the kitchen some. have to shift everything right?

This is what I was thinking:

These are the issues I see if you don't switch the Office & DR:

The switch would keep the Cleanup Zone where it is - with the dishes now much closer to the DR than in the current setup. Ditto the refrigerator.

The Prep & Cooking Zones would be pushed to the right, but that's fine as a separation of the Cleanup from the Prep/Cooking Zones is nice b/c it allows someone to be cleaning up or unloading the DW while others are prepping/cooking and/or baking without them getting in each other's way.

It also keeps through traffic out of the Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Baking Center.

A butler's panty typically would have a sink for hand washing, and a dishwasher for glassware and other things used in the dining room that do not require hand washing. It might also have a small refrigerator to hold things going into the DR, or for service at a cocktail party. The only dishes stored in a butler's pantry are ones which are used in the formal dining room - everyday dishes would be in the kitchen.

A butler's panty is for SERVICE and a few finishing touches on things prior to serving, as well as for clean-up of dishes and flatware used in the DR. It's not an "appliance room" or any other such thing - that is something different and would go in a different place.

OK. here's what I was thinking when I discussed moving the BP, etc. Unfortunately, I do not have time to document the detailed analysis, but if you read the Kitchen Design FAQ threads linked below, you should be able to see why I did what I did.

No through traffic in the Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Baking Center!

Note: I would have preferred to switch the refrigerator and ovens on the bottom wall, but I wanted to recess the refrigerator to allow you to have a larger refrigerator and there wasn't enough room in the wall below where the ovens are.

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Zone Map:

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Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads -- These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Layout Help -- FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need [Included for reference]

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Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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Kinda get what your saying. But with moving the office which is a kitchen/every day desk / command center from where it is to the foyer, it loses it's purpose. You also do away with any type of mud room coming in from the garage.

Having the hallway into the kitchen and then right next to it having the BP with a walk way right into the same hallway seems stupid.

I could handle a redesign of the back side, but it must make sense.

The zones you put up for the kitchen really doesn't work with how we work in the kitchen.

You say this: No through traffic in the Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Baking Center!

and then with your circles try and justify that you have no traffic through these zones. Reality of working in this area. you have traffic in all of them of some sort. With the BP where it's at. I think you put more traffic through the middle of the whole work zones.

I don't think you understand. There's no extraneous traffic...people passing through who are not working in the kitchen.

If you're convinced the other layout is better...then go with it. I don't have to work in it, you do.

Have you read the Kitchen Design threads?

Not convinced it's better, but your lay out degrades other areas of the house...

so where do yo umake the compromise?

When I posted my kitchen plans over a year ago I was told by someone she couldn't make a meaningful contribution to the kitchen design because the formal dining room was too far away (about 15 feet!) In our case we've used the formal dining room for a meal once in the 1 1/2 years we've lived here and I ignored that comment.

How many times per year do you expect to use the formal dining room to serve a meal? If it is less than 10 the fact that it is a bit of a haul from the kitchen might not matter much but if you hope to use it 50 or 100 times per year the distance could stop four family from using the room the way you want.

The formal dining will probably be used 5-8 times at the most. Sometimes 2 times a year. My job sometimes has me no where near home during traditional formal dining times, and sometimes we make our own. Depends on what's going on. Bottom line we like to have a formal dining as we do use it sometimes and enjoy it when we do.

Let me ask you a question. For the 5 to 8x a year you use the formal dining room (that's less than once a month) is it really worth paying for the square footage for the next 30 years?

Maybe there's a way to just have a nicer kitchen dining area that can be maybe blocked from the kitchen with pocket doors when you want to be more formal? Everyday, the pocket doors are open, but when entertaining you close them after you serve.

Then you're not building a room that will not be used 357 days out of the year. That's a lot to pay in a 30 year mortgage for a room that doesn't get used.

Truly think about how you live and entertain and design for that and not some fantasy.

I'm definitely with cp on this one. Seems very wasteful to have a large dr you are never going to use but have a kitchen you use daily with not enough space where it needs to be. The amount of space around the stove just looks a little claustrophobic to me. I would think about getting rid of the dr or butlers pantry to make more space here. What about buehl's suggestion of deepening the pr and closet to be in line with the bp. Even if nothing else changed it looks like that would give you an extra 30 inches of counter space?

The back cooktop area is much too jammed. Knowing the size of the appliances and the number would help to design the space. For example, I like the move of the frig to the the clean up sink wall. But, depending on the size, or number of cooling units, that could really squeeze the dishwasher and sink area and potentially jam up that walk way. You would want a bigger window too to shift the sink down.

Also, in planning the long wall of baking and morning stuff, will you put under-counter frig and-or freezer units here? What about a small sink for water to rinse hands, add to dough, fill the coffee pot etc? Is a microwave there so it's a snack spot, to melt butter etc? Is the cooktop or range 30" or would you do 36" in scale with the kitchen? What about venting. that wall is a focal point to the house so the sizing and placement should be considered.

I like the rest of your house. If this general flow works for you, great! But things in the kitchen need to be better spread out.

Agreed on placement of things in kiitchen As they are listed was only placeholders. We have a friend looking at it when they get a chance who is a KD.

On back wall I think all that will be there is cooktop and 1 oven. Think this leaves 42" on one side and 24-30" on other.

Venting is going to be hood over cooktop standalone no wall cabinets.

Other oven probably in baking wall as someone suggested in here.

Not sure what moving out walls of PR and CLO would do, it would take aisle space from kitchen. have to frame out a stub wall by BP to contain the cabinets, or cabinets would just be jutted out from the wall line. How it sits now, the cabinets are encased by the wall. Cabinets in line with the BP doorway.

Taking the wall out some would get walkway down to 48" (don't want to crammed" or push the island out, which then interferes with walk area from Family room to LR. and if anyone is sitting at the island or standing it lessens walk through space between that and FR.

Dining room is a desired room. the amount that we use it may not seem much to some people, but I / we travel a lot, so for the time we are home it's a good amount.