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Electrical Wiring

Two hot wires going to my switch and lighting fixture

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

I have an unused ceiling fan box in my kitchen where I like to put light fixture. It has four wires in it, ground (bare copper), white (neutral) red (I tested, it is hot) and black (I tested, it is hot). The switch that I believe controls this circuit has only black (I tested, it is hot) and red (I tested, it is hot) going to it. It has no white or switched-black wires. There are other switches in that box controlling other lights, which are two way. This switch that I am trying to use is not a two way connection. Turning this switch on/off does not cut off power to either red or back wires in the ceiling-fan-box.
Can someone explain what is going on and how do I attach a simple light on to this circuit.

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Comments (4)

Bruce in Northern Virginia
7 years ago
If power is first fed to the ceiling box it sounds like they wirer a switch loop.

This is one possible wiring scheme: 14/2 white and black run to the ceiling box, but black is not connected to the ceiling fixture. The 14/2 cable's black is connected to the 14/3 cable's black wire, running to the switch- providing a hot wire at the switch. The red and white in the 14/3 cable wires are connected to the fan and light, so they also run back to the switch. They should have been marked with black tape or marker to indicate they are switched hot wires.

At the switch end the 14/3 black is spliced with wire nuts so that it provides power to both the fan and the light switches. Then the red and white wires are marked as black (switched power) and connected to each switch. In your case they may have had only a light, so they just looped the white wire in the box and left it unused.

Bruce
AFQ
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Thanks Bruce for your response. It seems like you are on right. Connecting to red and white wires of fan-box side does work. Turning the switch on/off turns the light on and off. Having said that I still don't understand how this is working. To me the way the simple switch works is that it has two wires attached to it, you have black (live) wire going in and you have black(switched-live) wire coming out. In my case, I have black (live) and red (live) connected to switch. Which makes me wonder how is this switch working and even more surprising is why this switch does not blow up when I turn it on?
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I started to write up some steps, but if you do not even know how to operate the meter find someone who does. "I know that normally the red means "traveler" " Or switched hot. 120 V is not all that dangerous if you have dry hands and shoes on, but you WILL know if you touch it by accident. If you do not have any understanding of wiring, get someone who does. Ether hire an electrician to figure out what to do, or an experienced friend willing to lend a hand. The most likely thing is that one of the blacks is 'always on' and feeds the others, or when there where two switches was the 'other' switched hot. The red was most likely on the other screw of the switch and is a 'switched hot' feeding a light or receptacle. The problem is that you have to figure out a lot of what is what with the power on. Simple for an experienced person, not so simple if you do not understand wiring. This post was edited by brickeyee on Thu, May 30, 13 at 16:37
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That is a good idea but I am not sure I would try it. At the very least I would try a tech support # if there is one and run it by them first. If you are not able to reach any one then I would just hook up the remote box with one of the switched power wires and use the remote. If memory serves correctly I believe it comes with a little bracket to hang the remote on the wall next to the switch. I have also in the past bypassed one of the switches so that the remote always has power to it. I would think if you try this w/o an answer from tech support, the worst that would happen is you would burn up the remote box but I still wouldn't take that chance. BTW, my experience w/ those remotes specifically has been a high rate of failure. Especially if the power to the box is on and you go through a power outage or brownout, it seemed to kill it every time. The ones that were installed but not powered when one of those situations occurred were not harmed at all. Good luck.
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I would join all the like colors together, and see if that works. Sorry, that's not such a great strategy where a 3-way switch is involved. Wiring requires a lot more than just matching wire colors. It's not uncommon to open a box and find a white wire and black wire connected together, especially in an older house, and it's not a mistake. To make this work the way the OP wants, he needs to connect two wires together, and leave one wire in the box disconnected and capped with a wirenut. His problem is to determine which ones to connect and which one to cap. I can't see inside the box as well as I'd like to, so it's possible that I'm not seeing something. Or maybe my brain has skipped a gear. But what I think I see in the photo doesn't seem to be normal wiring for a 3-way switch. In a j-box for just a 3-way switch, I expect to see 2 cables entering the box. One will be 3 wires plus ground (red, black, white, bare) and the other will be 2 wires plus ground (black, white, bare). From the latter cable, the black wire goes to the switch common terminals. From the former one, the red and black go to the switch traveler terminals. The white wires are tied together. That's not what I'm seeing here. With more information from the OP maybe we can figure this out.
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Bruce in Northern Virginia
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Switch loops can get confusing, and its even worse if they are not clearly marked. I usually have to draw it out on paper first and then take the paper with me to follow when I hook it all up. When I try to work quickly and figure it out on the fly I usually get it wrong.

The black wire on your switch is just an extension of the black wire at the ceiling fixture, so it is hot. I believe the red wire is being used as the switched live wire that runs back to the light. If its a simple switch loop, the red wire should not test as live unless the switch is on. Are you sure its live all the time?

Bruce
AFQ
Original Author
7 years ago
I double checked and Red is not hot. Thanks for your help.

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