How much grass do you have in the 2 acres? Is there a house? Driveway? Patio?

How much grass is in the shade?

Pine needles might change the pH in the top inch of soil temporarily, but if the underlying mineral content is more basic, that acidity will wash away with the first few inches of rain.

Going with nothing but rainfall is a better choice than watering every day. Deep and infrequent is the mantra for watering grass, so that's a lot more like weather.

Mow at your mower's highest setting.

You should not put seed out in the spring. Spring is when the summer weed seeds are germinating. If you put grass seed out and water it like you're supposed to, that will bring out the weeds first and foremost.

Adding your lime can hurt. Don't do it until after you have a soil test that tells you which kind of lime, how much, and how often to apply.

You probably don't need to dethatch or aerate. If the yard has basically gone back to Nature except for occasional mowing, that is a much better situation to pick up from than one that has been heavily dosed with herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, and even some fertilizers. Ideally you would water when it needs it, mulch mow high on a weekly basis, and fertilize once in late May and early September and late November. Spray for weeds in April and late Sept.

"Hmm... I was under the impression that pine needles were very acidic."

LOL!! You and much of the rest of the world!! It's a garden myth that refuses to die :-) Fresh pine needles (and those of most other conifers) are slightly acidic. But they lose that acidity very rapidly off the tree. And the dry or dead needles that fall off the trees naturally are not acidic at all - if you look at the pine straw mulch industry (the most common mulch used in the southeastern US), you will see the research they have conducted that confirms this contention.

Even if you were to layer your soil/lawn with fresh pine needles, you would need huge quantities to effect any sort of significant change in soil pH.

The Myth of Pine Needle Acidity

"How much grass do you have in the 2 acres? Is there a house? Driveway? Patio?"

I used an Android app called 'Fields Area Measure' to get an estimate of the grassy areas and it's about 70k sq/ft. That doesn't include the house, no patio, and the (long) driveway is a bed of grass over gravel. Years ago we were always trying to kill the grass on the driveway, and now that's one of the areas where it grows the nicest. Go figure...

Let me see if I can get a screen cap from that app up...

The left area is the 'Front Yard', ~18,200 sq/ft. and relatively flat. The grass here is OK, a bit brown with some weeds, but fairly thick, except immediately under the pine trees. The driveway starts in the upper left corner and runs between the trees on the north edge of this area, then follows the diagonal down to the parking area just to left of the house. There's an old, long flower garden that runs along the 'top' edge of the driveway on the diagonal, then across the front of the house.

The small areas to the west (left) of the house (~4,500 sq/ft) and North in front of the front door (~1,300 sq/ft) have been getting pretty patchy the past few years. Since this is immediately surrounding the house, and they're relatively small, these are 'priority' areas for me.

The 'Hill' is the large area on the North side of the house, ~21,500 sq./ft. There's a row of fruit trees across the middle of the hill, which slopes down toward the house, but it's relatively sunny. This is my second priority area, since you tend to look out on it from the front of the house.

The mossy area is in the area to the right of the house (~4,700 sq./ft.). There are 4 large trees in this area, so it doesn't get much sun in the summer. It is also pretty flat here. This is where we are planning on removing 3 or 4 of the trees, leaving the one along the bottom edge that is closest to the house.

The L shaped area behind the house (~17k sq./ft.) is also not too bad, except for weeds, but near the bottom is getting pretty patchy. That area is also pretty shaded during the summer, especially along the bottom edge, and is also on a hill. But, this area isn't too much of a concern in general.

The brown rectangle on the far left is an old vegetable garden. I'm thinking of tilling it over and using it at a storage area for mulch (wood chip) and composting leaves, but that's later on and probably another forum. ;)

Hope this helps give you an idea of what I'm dealing with. I'll try and grab some 'street level' views tomorrow.

Good link, thanks Gardengal.

I was expecting more trees. Even if pine needles did acidify the soil, you don't have enough to matter.

Went up to the house yesterday and took a few pics, but there's a few inches of snow on everything, so you can't really see what's going on. I grabbed some soil samples and sent them off to Logan Labs, so I'll post the results when I get them (probably around the end of next week).

Okay, I got my Logan Labs Report today. Seems to me I'm lacking in a bunch of areas... So, now what?

'Front' is the big yard to the West fronting the road. Hill is to the North. 'Lawn' is a mix of samples from immediately North and West of the house, and Garden is the area just to the East of the house. Each sample was a mix of 3 or 4 samples from the designated area. I didn't sample from the back of the house.

The total exchange capacity refers to the soil's ability to hold onto ions like ammonium. Clays usually have a high TEC upwards of 15 and into the 20s. Sands have low TECs below 5. Anything in the lower range above sand is a mix of sand and loam. Toward the high end but below the clays is a mix of clay and loam. So your soil is in the lower range of sand and sandy loam. There are other chemistry factors which affect the ability of soil to hold ions, but those are more of morpheuspa discussion.

Your organic matter is better than some and can get better with the use of organic fertilizers at least once a year. If you use the Milorganite as j4 suggested that will help. Always mulch mow and mow in your fall leaf drop. In fact collect your neighbors' leaves and mow those in, too. You cannot overdo this. 8% or higher is a good place to be.

Magnesium is low everywhere except in the garden. Undoubtedly you or your predecessors used tons of Epsom salts in the garden. You can stop that now. With the higher pH and higher calcium content, someone apparently limed the garden area, too.

Thanks for the detailed info! Considering that I'm looking at probably 60k sq/ft, sounds like I have some math and then some lugging to do...

I remember as a kid my grandparents always spreading lime around. Not sure about Epsom salts, though... But my reference to Garden was just that side of the house... It's actually lawn (currently under pine trees) and was never a planted garden. The actual garden is a bit further to the east, but other than weed control I'll leave that to someone else in the family to worry about...

As for the fertilizer, looks like I need mostly Nitrogen (that's what N is, right?) and Potassium. Should I stick with a solid fertilizer, or can I convert the recommendations to a liquid equivalent? Likewise the Borax and Milorganite (never heard of that one...have to look that up).

Should I also spray for weeds, and if so, when? Early spring when things start to grow?

Overall, a very nice read has been given by Mr or Ms j4c11.

If I might split a couple of hairs.

This is one of the major problems with this type of raw data soil test. It doesn't test for residual soil acidity, so unless you are willing to pay an extra $10.00, the amount of lime that is needed must be based on an educated estimate. Admittedly, the very low TEC of the Front and Hill and the even the low TEC of the Lawn areas would strain the limits of accuracy for even the extra $10.00 test.

I think seeding at anytime is going to be a problem for you. To germinate any seed, it needs to stay moist. This means short waterings 3 or 4 times a day until germination, then longer once daily watering for a week, then watering 2-3 times a week for the next 3 weeks or so. Rye grass takes 3-5 days to germinate, fescue 5-10 and Kentucky Bluegrass can take up to 3 weeks. That's a lot of water in any case, but for a well and for an acre, it's a killer. It depends on your determination if that is doable or not.

You might want to consider adjusting your soil during 2017 and accept the stresses that will be placed on the turf for the first part of the year. Then dormant seed next winter and then just overseed every spring and fall until you get an outcome that satisfies you.

Here are my two coppers appended to the reading you already got in the event you decide to suck it up and get the soil fixed ASAP and wait to dormant seed the end of next year or a traditional fall seeding:

Front

Very low pH. The priority here is to raise pH asap. My
recommendations are aggressive in that regard and may cause temporary
yellowing. We will also try and increase Boron levels as well.

I estimate 50 lbs of lime is needed to raise pH to the mid 6s. Not a lot lower but the formula I use is more conservative and with a TEC of 3.15, I'd rather be a little light. I also don't like to exceed 25-30 lbs in any one application so as to not put too much stress on existing turf.

• April 1st: apply 30 lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.
• May 1st : apply 4 tablespoons Borax per thousand sq. ft. You can use
  Milorganite as a carrier - moisten the Milorganite slightly so the
  Borax sticks to it and mix together well, then spread. This is the only area that Boron might really be needed as it is <0.2. Still, I think this is optional unless you notice poor grass quality by next fall as grass requires very small amounts of Boron and micros are almost never a problem with grass. It's going to be a lot of work mixing and spreading over this 18,000sq feet and I just don't see it being worth the effort to do over another 1/2 acre for a vacation home.
• May 1st: apply 2lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.
• May 15th : apply 20lbs/1,000 sq ft dolomitic lime.
• June 1st: apply lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
• June 1st: apply 2lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.
• August 15th (or at least 2 weeks prior to a traditional fall seeding): apply lawn starter fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft. Use a starter fertilizer that has near equal N and P numbers like 24-25-4.
• October 1st (or after a traditional fall seeded lawn has been mowed three times): apply 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft of a fertilizer that is approximately 50% slow release.

Hill

I conservatively estimate 20 lbs of lime here.

• April 1st: apply 20 lbs/1,000 sq ft dolomitic lime.
• May 1st : apply 4 tablespoons Borax per thousand sq. ft. You can use
  Milorganite as a carrier - moisten the Milorganite slightly so the
  Borax sticks to it and mix together well, then spread. I consider this optional, but if you are so incline, by all means.
• June 1st : apply lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
• August 15th (or at least 2 weeks prior to a traditional fall seeding): apply lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
• October 1st (or after a traditional fall seeded lawn has been mowed three times): apply 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft of a fertilizer that is approximately 50% slow release.

Lawn

I estimate 45 lbs of lime here.

• April 1st: apply 25 lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.
• May 1st : apply 4 tablespoons Borax per thousand sq. ft. You can use
  Milorganite as a carrier - moisten the Milorganite slightly so the
  Borax sticks to it and mix together well, then spread. I consider this optional, but if you are so incline, by all means.
• May 1st: apply 2lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.
• May 15th : apply 20 lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.
• June 1st: apply lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
• June 1st: apply 2lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.
• August 15th (or at least 2 weeks prior to a traditional fall seeding): apply lawn starter fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft. Use a starter fertilizer that has near equal N and P numbers like 24-25-4.
• October
  1st (or after a traditional fall seeded lawn has been mowed three
  times): apply 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft of a fertilizer that is approximately
  50% slow release.

Garden

• April or May 1st: apply 3lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.

• June 1st : apply any NPK 10-10-10, 12-12-12, 19-19-19 etc. lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
  
• August 15th (or at least 2 weeks prior to a traditional fall seeding): apply any NPK 10-10-10, 12-12-12, 19-19-19 etc. lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.
  
• October 1st (or after a traditional fall seeded lawn has been mowed three
  times): apply any NPK 10-10-10, 12-12-12, 19-19-19 etc. lawn fertilizer at 1 lb N/1,000 sq ft.

Hope I haven't stepped on any toes and any and all critique is welcome. I'll go back to the Soil Forum now.

I forgot to mention that Alfalfa can be used as a Boron source alternative. It will take regular feedings and need to be made part of your annual regiment, but it would supply what is needed while improving OM and N.

@Lee Mychajluk

Nitrogen is indeed the most important nutrient for grass. I would recommend that you stick with a granular fertilizer that's 50(ish)% slow release. Liquid fertilizers are typically fast release N that give the grass an immediate but short lasting pop.

The Milorganite is not important, you need a carrier for the Borax. Spreading 4 tablespoons of powder evenly over 1,000 sq ft is problematic as you can imagine, so you get it to stick to some Milorganite and then spread it that way. I've applied Borax dissolved in water via sprayer with no ill effects, but it needs to be watered in immediately. Boron is highly toxic to plants in too large a quantities so best to increase slowly.

In regards to weeds:

http://lawniac.com/conquering-crabgrass-and-annual-weeds

http://lawniac.com/broadleaf-weeds

The pre-emergent is the big one, it will take care of 95% of annuals.

@Ridgerunner

We welcome all opinions. I prefer a fast acting calcitic lime like Solu-cal or Pennington to dolomitic because it works much faster and is easier to apply at 8lbs vs 50lbs per thousand. The dolomitic will stick around in the upper layers of the soil for a long time limiting subsequent applications. I included an application of dolomitic for Mg in late fall, when it can sit and work its way in all winter/early spring.

As for the fertilizer, looks like I need mostly Nitrogen (that's what
N is, right?) and Potassium. Should I stick with a solid fertilizer,
or can I convert the recommendations to a liquid equivalent?

You could convert pounds of dry nitrogen product to pounds of liquid, but you could not afford the liquid. Typically liquid sprays provide micro ounces of nitrogen while grass needs it by the pound.

Likewise
the Borax and Milorganite (never heard of that one...have to look that
up).

I think this has been covered. Borax is a required micronutrient but if you go over a threshold it becomes poisonous. The Milorganite is a carrier to even out the distribution and eliminate the possibility of overdoing it in one spot.

Should I also spray for weeds, and if so, when? Early spring when things start to grow?

Yes. April is a good time to spray actual weeds. That gives them time to get up and growing. If you want to use a preemergent herbicide, watch for your local forsythia plants to bloom. Apply the preem as soon as you see those flowers.

@ j4c11

I see, and good point about the Mg. I was front loading so that the soil would have a chance to balance before a fall seeding or winter dormant seeding and I was trying to make my suggestions easy to apply without the additional step of adding Mg separately. I will adjust my prior post with calcitic to better account for Mg but still avoid the extra Mg application.

I was wondering why you suggest a lower lime rate for the Lawn than for the Hill or Front area. Is it because of the difference in the lime you suggested?

Okay, been doing some reading up and calculations, and trying to figure out where I'm going to get this stuff. Sounds like I'm going to need a lot of material. I'm willing to invest a bit into this, but I'm not sure I want to spend thousands on something that I'm going to spread around on the ground, so I may concentrate on the areas closer to the house first.

First off, when you guys say Borax, we're talking like the laundry soap or roach powder? Is Borate Powder the same thing? I'm seeing this at Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SYSTEM-THREE-1-lb-Board-Defense-Borate-Powder-207760/203731320?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-BASE-PLA-D24-Paint%7c&gclid=CjwKEAiAs_PCBRD5nIun9cyu01kSJAA-WD-rY-QCPNIptQCzvADNGn1BL-fGgmc34nMD0si_MuYyERoCS4Lw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Based on the concentrations you guys are talking about, I was expecting something much more potent(?).

For the Lime, is 'calcitic' those limes that contain Calcium? Like one of these:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/soil-doctor-pelletized-lawn-lime-40-lb?cm_vc=-10005

or

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Timberline-500-sq-ft-Soil-Doctor-Pulverized-Garden-Lime-Organic-or-Natural-Lawn-Fertilizer/3058417

If I got something like the Sta-Green Rapid-Lime, do I still go by the above recommendations, even though a similar sized bag seems to cover a larger area per the bag recommendations?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sta-Green-30-lb-Organic-Garden-Lime/50189499

The dolomitic lime seems a bit easier to find (and identify as such):

https://www.lowes.com/pd/1-000-sq-ft-Pro-Care-Lawn-Lime/3581994

I know I can probably buy bulk lime, but storing it and keeping it dry enough to put through a spreader may be an issue.

I'm assuming 'pelletized' variants are the easiest to put through a spreader, and is OK as an option? I'll probably get a 12v spreader from Fimco, but I'm open to suggestions.

Oh, and I guess this is the Milorganite you guys were talking about.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/milorganite-organic-nitrogen-fertilizer-36-lb-1063144?cm_mmc=feed--GoogleShopping--Product-_-1063144&gclid=CjwKEAiAs_PCBRD5nIun9cyu01kSJAA-WD-rOXBWOL9CSzuxUaPOizpzCa4SkkNab4bh69sPWIvhyRoCronw_wcB

Thanks again! I'm getting some great info here.

In regards to the calcitic lime, I am referring to fast acting lime that contains little to no Mg. Pennington, Solu-cal, Encap or the Sta-Green Rapid Lime are examples. Apply at the recommended rates below rather than bag rate.

In regards to the Borax, get a box of 20 Mule Team Borax from Walmart. It's about $4. Again, Boron is very toxic to plants if you go over, they need very little of it but they do need it.

It can definitely add up to a lot of money, especially for an area that large. The recommendations are geared towards obtaining ideal values. Let's look at it from a sufficiency standpoint . Rather than doing the area around the house, let's see what's critically important to address. We will skip additions where the grass has the bare minimum available.

The nitrogen recommendations remain the same.

Front

• April 1st: apply 8lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.
• July 1st : apply 8lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.
• Oct 1st: apply 50 lbs dolomitic lime/1,000 sq ft.

Hill

• April 1st: apply 6lbs/1,000 sq ft calcitic lime.

Lawn

• No additions

Garden

• May 1st: apply 2lbs/1,000 sq ft potassium sulfate.

Do at least the items above, this is the bare minimum. The more items you add from my previous recommendations for each area, the more you will improve the nutrients in your soil.

Hi Lee. As the guy who convinced you not to add lime last fall, let me be the first to say you should have added lime last fall. :o) Seriously, though, there are different types of lime as you see above and Murphy's Law says you would have used the wrong one (although that would have been better than nothing, actually).

It's too bad you weren't able to do a jar test to see how your soil breaks down into sand (large particles), silt (medium) and clay (small). The total exchange capacity reported can give you a pretty good idea, though, because generally sandy soils are low in TEC and clay soils are high. The jar test would have confirmed what the TEC is telling us, which is that you have quite sandy soil. (Does it drain well?) The problem with sandy soil is that they don't hold on to plant "resources" like calcium, magnesium and potassium. That low TEC is saying that your soil can't store a great deal of these resources, so as they get used by your grass, the amounts remaining at the end of the season are more likely to drift away from where you want them. On a soil with a TEC of say even 15, 20 or 25, whatever lab results you get now will likely be unchanged much next year, or the year after that. There is a larger reservoir of nutrients held by those soils, so it is harder to change the numbers, which is more stable.

You have some very acidic soil results, and that acidity can alter your TEC reading and make it lower (unless Logan is already accounting for low pH, which I assume not). This is a good thing because as you get your pH raised closer to around 6.5, you will get a more accurate reading of your actual TEC. If you notice, the highest TEC is 7.8 in the garden. This is also your highest pH at 7.3. So I'm thinking your actual capacity everywhere else is closer to that 7.3 than the 2, 3 and 4 values reported. 7.8 is much more respectable. It would also make some sense because organic matter helps raise TEC and your organics aren't that bad. 3.0 is borderline deficient, and 6.0 is very good. So anyway my theory is that your TEC is better than it looks, and will behave that way when the pH is raised. I guess I'm trying to say that it looks like you might find it difficult to keep this soil happy, but maybe not as much as it appears after the pH is brought up.

You'll notice that N, nitrogen, is not even reported. This is because N is volatile and the value goes up and down very quickly. As long as you provide several pounds of N/1000 sf each year, you don't need to really measure it. Milorganite will supply your lawn with N used at bag rate. However, you might be able to find it at half price by searching for alternate brands. Milorganite comes from a sewage treatment plant in MI. I use Oceangro here in NJ, which is from sewage in Ocean County, NJ. If you can track down something similar in NY you might save a lot of $. I would only bother with boron if you are going to use milorganite type products even once a year. It's easy to apply that way. Just don't mess up your calculations. Too much boron will make your soil infertile. Don't measure it out over the grass, for instance, and then spill it. :o) If you decide not to use milorganite and have limited time and money, I'd hold off on the boron until the big problems are solved.

Of course you can also use inorganic fertilizers like Scotts or Lesco (generally cheaper). Just compare prices, do the math, and see how they compare. Inorganic will also be less weight and easier for such a large property.

Something else to keep in mind: The soil isn't going to be perfect in one year. It will probably take several years of annual measurements and amendments. The good news is that the lawn will get at least a little better right away because you are doing something instead of nothing. It's just that nothing you add, including preemergents, some weed killers, and certainly the amendments you are going to be adding to the soil are going to work as effectively at such low pH's, particularly if they are under 5.5.

Take your time and don't try to fix everything all at once. It is far easier to add more later. Sometimes impossible to reduce an over application of something.

So, wrapping this diatribe up, my only slightly educated opinion is that your priority should be getting the calcium into that 60 to 70% range, which will take care of your pH as others have recommended above. It would also be a good idea to check back in the spring to see if morpheuspa has returned. He is very knowledgeable about reading Logan reports and can add his 2 cents. If not, then your soil is so far deficient in calcium that it is easy enough to know what to do for next year.

Sorry for the novel. Somebody please correct me if I've misspoken on anything.

Lee,

You have a 25hp rider. what other equipment to you have? Do you have a pull behind sprayer? A pull behind broadcast spreader? A pull behind drop spreader?

Based on the areas reported on your soil test, in order of importance, which areas are a priority?

You can save a lot of $ if you can find a wholesaler. Call around and see if you can find a farm co-op, a feed and seed type store or call some sod farms and ask if they can recommend a place to buy fertilizer and lime and grass seed for less.

Just to give you something to go on: You are going to want to fertilize the whole 70,000 sq ft. The cheapest N source is Urea 46-0-0. It should go for $20 for a 50lb bag and each bag will cover 23,000 sq feet. At this point, you may want to add some phosphorous and potassium. Cheapest way is 19-19-19. It should run about $20 for a 50lb bag and each bag will cover 10,000 sq feet. This would only need to be applied once next year. So next year you would want to use urea two times and TX19 once. Ortho Weed b Gone Max is used for weeds. $9 of concentrate will cover 5000 sq feet and it needs to be applied twice. An pre-emergent can prevent many weeds form establishing It will usually cost about $35 t0 $40 for a 50 lb bag. Will cover 10-15,000 sq feet. Liguid is also available but may require watering to wash off grass. Seed costs very greatly. Most important is to select a seed with no weed seed and no other crop content. Otherwise your just planting weeds that need killed and some may be resistant to weed killers. Overseeding with KBG is done at 1-2lbs per 1000 sq feet. Ball park cost of KBG is $4 per lb.Overseeding with fescue is done at 3-5 lbs per 1000 sq feet. Cost of fescue is about $1.25 per pound. As jc4 has stated, you definitely want to lime the Front as pH is 4.9 and approaching a level were Aluminum can become toxic to the turf. Price the brands he suggested.

Add it all up and get back with what and where you want to start based on your budget.

Different states have different methods of labeling lime. Take a photo of the "ingredient" labels of the lime you find and we can help you chose. Look for a granular, unless you have a drop spreader and some way to wash pulverized lime (non-granular) off the grass. You want: Low Mg, less than 6%. High CCE, greater than 80. High (fine) mesh, large percentage goes through a 60 mesh or 100 or greater mesh. Solu-cal is the best available for calcitic lime, but hard to find.

@ danielj_2009

That is a very interesting observation concerning TEC. A residual pH test might help clear that up as sands (low TEC) usually need lower lime additions than clay soils (high TEC) to raise pH the same amount of pH. Knowing the tested residual pH can help confirm the TEC.

Lee would have been better off sending his samples to Cornell or Delaware or even Umass as they are familiar with N.E low TEC soils and test accordingly and provide residual pH testing in their basic test. But that's water under the bridge. For accurate liming, depending on the area or area's that Lee wishes to start a program, it might be smart to ask him to have Logan do a residual pH test on the sample for that area. He does have 6 weeks to ask. Unfortunately, it will cost another 10 dollars, but may be worth it rather than us estimating using formulas.

You made no mistake in advising against lime last fall. There was no basis to determine which lime should be apleid, how much or even if lime was needed. If there was any mistake, it was only in recommending Logan labs without warning that an additional cost might be needed.

I think we're over-thinking this. Like someone wiser than me said, doing soil amendments is more like horseshoes than darts. Let's go with what we got and re-test the following year, see where we are.

@ridgerunner: Thanks for confirming all that. Do you think Logan has some of his sample kept in reserve? I would have guessed they use it all or dump it. MIght be worth a call to see.

Also, I've never used urea. Doesn't this have to be watered in to prevent burning? Lee doesn't have a means for watering such a large area.

@j4c11

You posted: "I think we're over-thinking this."

The TEC and residual pH stuff was cross-talk for fellow nerdy types: danielj_2009, dchall_san_antonio, and you as I'm pretty sure Lee doesn't care how the sausage is made. :-) Didn't mean to muddy things up.

@danielj_2009

Most labs keep a portion of the sample for 4-6 weeks. Just in case a person wants additional tests run because of an area of interest that might come up from the original test results or a dispute over results. Mistakes do happen. I think Logan is 6 weeks and I'm not positive about the residual pH test cost but I'm pretty sure it would be about $10.

To be supper safe, almost anything not intended as a foliage application should be watered in. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've always applied urea without watering and never had any problem, but never did it after Mid June or before September. I might loose some N to the atmosphere while it sits there waiting for rain though. I do try to time it within a day or two before an expected rain but as often as not, the rain doesn't come for another week or so. Another thing I have done is to wait until the grass is completely dry but the soil is still moist after a recent rain to apply it. For the size of Lee's property, I don't think he has much of a choice if cost is a major consideration. With his low pH, he wouldn't want to use a sulfur coated slow release N and the polymer coated get pretty pricey. Milorganite would require about 35 bags to do 70,000 sq feet? I'm no expert on fertilizer burn, so just my personal experience. Pretty much a rock or a hard place situation.

So I go to the Logan Labs sight to see what I can find on the 6 week thing.

It's under topic of General Information:

http://loganlabs.com/doc/LoganBrochure.pdf

But nothing found on cost of extra pH testing.

A long story:

I think it was a year ago I decided to call a couple of soil labs to get answers to some questions I had. They were all very kind and helpful.

Anyways, I saw some Logan tests posted here and there and I liked that they gave a lot of information that some other labs didn't and cheap compared to other private labs. They didn't provide a test for liming tho.

So I called Logan and asked if there was anyway to figure lime from their basic test. Receptionist says she will ask the lab director and for me to call back in a day or two.

Called back and receptionist says director says no way to do it. Need to ask for the extra test to determine lime requirement.

Anyways I called back a couple of times to get answers and ask more questions until I could tell that the receptionist knew it was me (caller id?) and seemed to be getting a little annoyed.

Point of this is that when I visited their sight today I found this, which I don't think was there at the tim that I was asking questions. Maybe I wasn't the only one calling and asking:

http://loganlabs.com/doc/tecformulas.pdf

http://loganlabs.com/doc/desired-value-calculations.pdf

Pretty classy of them I think.

Sorry for going off the rails again.

ridgerunner said: The TEC and residual pH stuff was cross-talk for fellow nerdy types:
danielj_2009, dchall_san_antonio, and you as I'm pretty sure Lee doesn't
care how the sausage is made.

It's lawn care's version of the hot stove league. :o)

@Lee and others: I found a thread from last spring in which morpheus was helping someone with soil very similar to yours. He cautioned against large amounts of lime application in a sandy soil. He recommended modest applications of fast acting lime, once in the spring and once in the fall, then retest the following spring. This is not a long thread, so just read anything morpheus posted and think about it in terms or your own situation.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3750331/solu-lime-and-ag-lime?n=14

One more post of interest. A guy in another discussion mirrored what morpheus was saying, which I didn't know and found interesting:

You have to be very careful when reading
and using the soil test results - many (most) labs are aimed at
agricultural applications.

The application of large amounts of Lime all at once is for
situations where the Lime is being incorporated into the soil by tilling
- like on a farm. Applying more Lime than 50 lbs of "typical" Lime as a
SURFACE application is bad, as it causes a spike in the pH in the top
inch of soil right away, and you can wind up with a soil that is pH 8+
at the surface, and at a deeper depth (where it hasn't reached yet) it
can still be a very low pH. This can harm or kill the soil biology and
cause yellowing as other nutrients get "tied up" by the large amounts of
Calcium and Magnesium.

The newest Calcitic limes (like Encap, Pennington and Mag-I-Cal) have
recommended bag rates of from 6 lbs to 10 lbs per 1000 sq ft. They are
much quicker acting. Don't exceed the rates on the bag as I have seen
moderate yellowing at 18 lbs/1000 and severe yellowing at 35 lbs per
1000 sq ft. This is not like the stuff that farmers buy by the
truckfull.

Just catching up on the posts from the last few days. Thanks again for all the comments, even if some of them are over my head. ;)

Just to provide a couple of pieces of info that was asked for:

I don't expect a quick fix. But, I'm hoping that if I start paying attention to the lawn, it will slowly improve, even if I can't meet all the recommendations.

I still have a bit of soil from the area closest to the house, so I'll see if I can get around to doing that jar test this weekend, which I sort of forgot about. Most of the areas seem to absorb rain fairly well (they don't get too soft), but I think a lot of water on the Hill to the north of the house runs down the hill and doesn't get absorbed.

I also have a soil pH test kit, if that can provide the answer to the residual pH question? I don't think I'm going to ask for the additional test from Logan at this time.

As for equipment, I have the riding mower, a wagon, a small push-spreader, a power tiller, a chipper/shredder, a UTV, and a 65-gallon bed-mounted boom sprayer that I just bought for the UTV. I'm also looking to get a larger broadcast spreader for the UTV as well, and will consider buying something like an Estate Rake if dethatching is needed.

I actually live in Northern NJ, so I can get supplies available in NJ or NY. Near home I have HD, Lowes, TrueValue, Walmart, and a couple of local garden centers. Up near the house, the closest HD is 1/2 hour away, but there's a TractorSupply and an Agway (agricultural supply) nearby. I'm sure I can also find someplace to get bulk soil, lime, fertilizer(?) etc... delivered, though being able to keep a pile of lime dry enough to go through the spreader wouldn't be easy. I have a pickup, so I can pick up around 1500lbs of supplies / trip if I need to.

I can't water the entire lawn, but I'm thinking that with a couple of strategically placed sprinklers and a timer I can cover an area within 75' or so around the house if I need to water, though the well is not endless. The areas further out from the house aren't in range of the hoses, so other than what I can carry in buckets or the sprayer, I'd be limited to how much I can water.

So, my first 'round' of treatment sounds like it will be around April 1st (or as soon as the snow melts). At the risk of overly-simplifying all the detailed recommendations, based on the recommendations above, I'll probably be looking to:

1) Aquire and spread ~500lbs Calcitic Lime (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sta-Green-30-lb-Organic-Garden-Lime/50189499). If my math is right, this should be below $200, which I can deal with (plus ~$400 for a decent spreader....).

2) Spray for weeds (post-emergent or pre-emergent at this point?). Was thinking a general purpose 2,4-D like this - http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/gordons-amine-400-2-4-d-weed-killer-2-1-2-gal

(I probably have crab grass, but right not that could be most of what's there, so I don't think I'm going to try to kill that just yet until I'm ready to start re-seeding.)

3) Maybe set up sprinklers around the house

May 1st

1) Plan to fertilize. Acquire nitogen, phosphorous and potassium fertilizers. ~$250(?)

Liquid 10-10-10 http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/gordons-triple-10-liquid-fertilizer-10-10-10-2-1-2-gal

or

Spreadable 18-18-18 http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shur-crop-18-18-18

+ Additional Nitrogen Fertilizer (e.g. Milorganite) @ ~$400(?).

2) Apply Borax. Can I mix the Borax in with the fertilizers? Or maybe just dissolve and spray it on it's own?

3) Second application of weed killer?

Costs estimated at doing the entire 70k sq/ft, and I'll break it down by area as I get closer to the actual dates.

Whew....lots to think about!

It would be wise to find a local supplier of agricultural or lawn/garden products rather than buying retail. You can get very significant cost savings over big box products. I use a company called Green Resource (NC only), so I'm going to give you some suggestions on your plan and also estimated cost based on what I'm seeing at Green Resource:

Aquire and spread ~500lbs Calcitic Lime (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sta-Green-30-lb-Organic-Garden-Lime/50189499). If my math is right, this should be below $200, which I can deal with (plus ~$400 for a decent spreader....).

Correct. My cost for calcitic lime at GR is $12/50# bag, so about $120 worth of lime.

Spray for weeds (post-emergent or pre-emergent at this point?). Was thinking a general purpose 2,4-D like this -

You need both. I recommend prodiamine as pre-emergent (https://www.amazon.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Generic-Barricade/dp/B007H36O12) - this should last you 4-5 years. I recommend Trimec as a general purpose broadleaf post-emergent (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/gordons-trimec-lawn-weed-killer-2-1-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005) - spot spray as needed. The pre-emergent should take care of 98% of annual weeds.

Plan to fertilize. Acquire nitogen, phosphorous and potassium fertilizers. ~$250(?)

This is where a lot of your dollars are going to go over the years. I have two suggested courses of action:

1. Finding a bulk supplier can save you significant $. You can buy 3 bags of urea (N) and 1 bag of potassium chloride(K) and mix them yourself. Total cost should be under $70 for the entire 70k.
2. Use 5 bags of Vigoro 29-0-4 from Home Depot ( http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-15-000-sq-ft-Lawn-Fertilizer-52211/204750013). Total cost ~$160.

Additional Nitrogen Fertilizer (e.g. Milorganite)

No need for Milorganite at bag rate. Just get 1-2 bags to act as carrier for the Borax.

Apply Borax. Can I mix the Borax in with the fertilizers? Or maybe just dissolve and spray it on it's own?

Mix with the Milorganite, see above. Don't spray if you don't have the means to water in immediately.

Second application of weed killer?

Throughout summer spot spray as needed. Kill them as you see them. The pre-emergent should take care of most common annual weeds. There will be some break through and perennials to spray.

1) Aquire and spread ~500lbs Calcitic Lime (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sta-Green-30-lb-Organic-Garden-Lime/50189499). If my math is right, this should be below $200, which I can deal with (plus ~$400 for a decent spreader....).

I respectfully remove myself on lime recommendations without a test for to determine reserve acidity. Just too much chance for error. However, the only area that is of real need is the Front and applying 6-10 pounds per thousand square feet of any type of lime over the whole 70,000 sq feet, other than the garden area, should create no problems.

2) Spray for weeds (post-emergent or pre-emergent at this point?). Was thinking a general purpose 2,4-D like this - http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/gordons-amine-400-2-4-d-weed-killer-2-1-2-gal

(I probably have crab grass, but right not that could be most of
what's there, so I don't think I'm going to try to kill that just yet
until I'm ready to start re-seeding.)

Foliar (spray application) of weed killer is the most efficient method. Agree, I'd limit this to only the areas I was going to seed.

In regard to pre-emergents, you must wait at least 90 days after applying them before you seed.

3) Maybe set up sprinklers around the house

No need unless you are watering seed. See my post above for schedules necessary. Otherwise consider dormant seeding.

May 1st

1) Plan to fertilize. Acquire nitogen, phosphorous and potassium fertilizers. ~$250(?)

Liquid 10-10-10 http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/gordons-triple-10-liquid-fertilizer-10-10-10-2-1-2-gal

Strongly advise against liquid. It is not cost effective.

or

Spreadable 18-18-18 http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shur-crop-18-18-18

This would satisfy one of the N applications (you should be making 3 to 4 N applications each year) and should meet the phosphorous and potassium needs for a year or two. Apply this only one time until a soil test is done in the future.

The other 2 or 3 N applications can be satisfied with any source. Urea 46-0-0 is the least expensive as each 50 lb bag will cover 23,000 sq feet. Each application will require 3 bags with each bag costing $20. So thre apps of 3 bags each less the N from the one app of 18-18-18 is 8 bags of urea or $160 other N fertilizer costs will vary and will be more expensive.

+ Additional Nitrogen Fertilizer (e.g. Milorganite) @ ~$400(?).

Your choice if you want to substitute one of the N app (3 bags of urea).

2) Apply Borax. Can I mix the Borax in with the fertilizers? Or maybe just dissolve and spray it on it's own?

j4c11 should address this.

3) Second application of weed killer?

Almost all liquid weed herbicides require a second app tow weeks after the first app, follow directions.

Never mind.

@Ridgerunner - Looks like part of your comment got cut out - "I respectfully remove myself on lime recommendations without a test for to determine reserve acidity. "

Test for ???. Is this the additional (Residual?) pH test that would have to be requested from Logan? Or can I test myself w/ a home kit? Sorry.. I'm trying to keep up, but am getting a lot of info thrown at me. So, the 'Residual' pH is different than the pH value that is on the base Logan report, right? But it may not be accurate because my soil might be low TEC (low-tech, lol...)?

I just looked up Cornell's testing services. They want you to ship your samples with blue ice packs in warmer weather. Shipping dirt, Priority Mail, on ICE, might be getting a bit more involved that I really want to get... :/

Remember, this is a vacation home, not a golf course on the PGA circuit. Time is a factor as well. I'll be able to get up there maybe every other weekend during the spring, so I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible. I'm wondering what you guys think about Agway 4 Stage program (or something similar)? Based on an old flyer I found, you may be able to buy into the 'program' in the Spring for ~$150 per 15k sq/ft, so for ~$750 seasonal budget I'll have most of my fertilizer and weed control covered(?), which I think I can handle. I'll just have to add the Lime, some extra N along the way (I think), and spot spray weeds. I know it won't be as specifically tailored to my lawn, but it'll be easy to plan and apply, and then the following year I can re-test and 'fill in the gaps' as needed.

Info: http://agwayct.com/blog/28201/agway-stage-4-program

Products:

http://morristownagway.com/catalog/product/116635/agway-stage-1-crabgrass-control-fertilizer-26-0-4-5m#.WGaXnPkrK9I

http://morristownagway.com/catalog/product/116637/agway-stage-2-weed-control-fertilizer-27-0-4-15m#.WGaXufkrK9I

http://morristownagway.com/catalog/product/116639/agway-stage-3-lawn-fertilizer-22-0-4-15m#.WGaXwfkrK9I

http://morristownagway.com/catalog/product/116641/agway-stage-4-winterizer-fertilizer-22-0-10-15m#.WGaZ7PkrK9I

Oddly, the Agway 'Farm Grade' fertilizers, which are probably the cheaper, bulk sizes, are not available in NY and NJ, with the exception of the 19-19-19 which can be purchased in NY.

My biggest concern with the fertilizers (and weed control products) was that many seem to need to be watered in, which I can't really do (short of working around weather forecasts). It seemed that this wasn't as strict a requirement with the liquids, even though they are more expensive, which is why I kept asking about spraying vs. spreading. Thoughts on this?

I sort of feel like I asked 'what's the best way to fire off a bottle rocket' in a NASA forum, but I do appreciate the help and info! ;D Thanks again!

@ lee: I think the lack of water is an issue that is worthy of consideration in regards to getting nitrogen into your lawn with fertilizer. I haven't used urea myself, but if you google "using urea without water" you will find some pretty negative possible outcomes, including losing much of the nitrogen to the atmosphere. Moreover, if you use it on wet grass and do not quickly water it in you will risk burning the grass.

The alternative is milorganite type organic fertilizers. They are very forgiving because they feed microbes in your soil, which then produce the nitrogen your lawn needs. You almost can't make a mistake with them and watering-in is not necessary (morning dew is sufficient). I live east of Morristown and I go down to Farris Farms in Ocean County to pick up OceanGro, which is the same thing, only half the price. It is usually around $8 for a 50 lb bag which will cover you for 2500 or 3000 sf, if applied at bag rate. I don't know if that is too long a haul for you, but 70K sf would need around 24 bags, for a cost of $192 plus the gas and time getting down there and back. Also, 24 bags weighs 1200 lbs! That's the drawback, and about the only drawback. The OceanGro would also allow you to apply some Borax safely to the entire lawn for pennies. I wouldn't make my decision based on the boron application, but it might be a reason to use organic at least once, although boron leaches out easily as your lawn test shows. (You'll need a spreader attachment either way you go, organic or urea, unless you want to walk 70K sf with a push spreader).

I would do a little research and see if there is a product like milorganite or OcanGro produced somewhere in NY that is sold near your property. If I could find one nearby, then it is a no-brainer, 100% decision to go with that, IMO.

If it were me, I'd try both methods (OceanGro vs urea) and see what seems to work and what seems manageable to you.

As far as the calcium amendments, the concern that you might have read about in the links I provided is that your soil may be too sandy and much of the lime will wash away. That's why I was interested in your jar test. So by applying some large amount like 30 lb/ksf, you might just be pissing it away when it leachs out of the soil before it can do its job. Sandy soils drain well and can't hold on to all that lime.

The pH reading you get from Logan does not measure residual pH according to Ridge. I assume that's correct. The residual will just indicate how difficult it will be to raise the pH. It's like the buffer capacity of the soil. For your purposes I'd just do what morpheus recommended in the link above and make a modest addition of fast acting lime in the spring and another in the fall, and then test again the following spring.

Personally I wouldn't go with the 4 step products for a number of reasons, but, again, if you are in no rush maybe try it for a year and see if it is good enough.

Anything you do will make the grass better, its just a matter of how much better for the money and effort. In my book, given your water issues, finding a local supply of cheap organic fertilizer is the way to go.

@Lee Mychajluk

Sorry about that.

At the risk of muddying the waters even more:

Acidic soils suck up acid and hold it kind of like a sponge. Some soils hold a lot. Some a lot less. When water is added to soil, some of that acid that the soil is holding, the reserve acidity, flows into the water. A pH test measures the pH of that water, but does not reveal how much more acid the soil might still be holding in reserve. If you add a too small amount of lime, the water's pH will rise for a time, but within as short as a week or two, more acid can flow out of the reserves of acid in the soil and the pH of the water will lower again. If you add too much lime, the pH of the soil water can go way higher than you want. A reserve acidity (buffer) test will tell you how much extra acid the soil is holding in reserve and how much lime it will take to get the soil water pH to stay at the level that you want it. Overly simplified, it is as though the lab takes a cubic inch of soil sample, adds water, and then keeps testing and adding small amounts of lime until the pH gets to the desired level and stay there. Then based on that, calculates how much lime it would take to change the pH for 1000 sg feet. All in all, the Front is the only area that I would suggest you get the extra reserve acidity test for.

Does that help any?

Without a residual acidity test, you can only guess how much lime is enough or too much. Otherwise add very small amounts and re-test yearly and adjust lime from year to year.

@danielj_2009

I have no reason to mislead anyone. I spoke to Logan Labs. That is what they told me. I would welcome anyone to call Logan and verify it. I think an answer coming from another person wo spoke to LL would help--a lot.

Enuff about lime from me.

I've tried to make my prior suggestions based on cost, size of the lawn, simplicity and the minimal needs of the soil and grass.

In order of importance, that would be restated as: A) Applying 1lbs of N per thousand square feet three times a year, every year. B) Add enough lime to raise pH of the Front from 4.9 to above 5.5 but below 7. C) Add enough potassium fertilizer to raise levels to around 220 lbs. (the Hill is close enough already). D) Add enough phosphorous P2O5 fertilizer to the Garden to raise the level to 130 lbs. (all areas other than the Hill (it's close enuff) would benefit by raising phosphorous to 200lbs).

Mow regularly. Mow at 3" or higher.

@Ridge: My bad!! I was not trying to say you were wrong, just that I didn't know exactly what the Logan pH test was, other than your comment. Had I reread some of the prior posts I would have recalled that you did some pretty extensive investigation, which I believe 100%. I just forgot all that when I posted.

BTW, I think your analogy of soil and pH using a sponge is excellent. Do you know whether any of these labs take soil structure into account when making lime recommendations? I mean, they could do the residual test and say you need 65 lb of lime, but do they account for the large amount that may just leach away in a sandy soil? I'm wondering if the leaching is the limiting factor, forcing you to live with smaller additions or higher waste if you add it anyway. Just thinking out loud (and probably confusing the issue in the process).

@danielj_2009

No problem. I really would welcome someone else contacting LL and verifying. Peace of mind and all.

Do you know whether any of these labs take soil structure into account
when making lime recommendations?

Not to my knowledge. I think it's all very basic. A little over simplified: They measure the amount of reserve acidity that is in the soil by testing a small sample then calculate how much of that reserve needs to be neutralized to reach a stable desired pH. Then they extrapolate how much lime it would take to do that for an acre to a soil depth of 6-8". X amount of acid requires Y amount of lime to neutralize it.

I mean, they could do the residual
test and say you need 65 lb of lime, but do they account for the large
amount that may just leach away in a sandy soil? I'm wondering if the
leaching is the limiting factor, forcing you to live with smaller
additions or higher waste if you add it anyway.

Interesting.

Calcium carbonate (limestone) and magnesium carbonate are considered insoluble in water. So leaching shouldn't be much of a concern with either of them. Or are you thinking of a product containing calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide? Or are you thinking the product granules might be washed down through the sandier soil depending on how finely ground? Or maybe the higher pH adjusted soil water created in the top layer leaching too quickly through lower strata before there is time for it to react with reserves at lower soil levels?

That brings another issue to mind concerning the difference between the terms limestone and lime.

@Ridgerunner: Concerning leaching of limestone in a sandy soil, in a word, I don't really know. I understand the chemistry in general, but I've learned that there are a lot of things going on in a soil. When morpheus says adding excess lime to a sandy soil is a waste because "it'll just wash out" I think that washing out, or leaching, is a combination of factors. For one, the particle size of fast acting lime is what makes it fast acting. Very small particles actually react much faster than larger ones. So I'd say one factor in a sandy soil is that a portion of the small particles are physically washed through the soil before it can do anything, fast acting or not. In addition, while calcium carbonate is technically nearly insoluble in pure water, that is not the case in nature. CO2 in the atmosphere makes the rain and soil solution naturally acidic, which draws carbonates into solution creating a buffer solution. Once dissolved, again, in a sandy soil, I imagine the calcium will be washed or leached down and out of the root zone.

Add to that the limited number of CEC sites in such a sandy soil. There's nothing for the calcium to bond to, other than some organic content, so I imagine it will stay in solution until the next rain.

But, like I said, I don't really know what is the biggest factor in excess lime being wasted in a sandy soil. Here's a quote from morpheus in the other thread concerning soil very similar to Lee's. This is in response as to whether lime can be added to a low pH sandy soil more frequently than every 6 months:

In a word, no. You're going way over the top on lime application.
As I mentioned above, it'll set off a high pH zone up top, and damage
the soil biology (it'll recover, but it takes six months to adjust or a
year to repair if damaged).

At this point, I'd apply 1 more bag of Solu-Lime in late September to
early October and call it a season. At that point, you're maxing out
on the amount of calcium you should add--and well over the top already
on a sandy soil, which doesn't take much in terms of resources to shift.

@danielj_2009

I don't really know either. My inclination is to say that I think all of those factors would or could have an influence on application and results.

How does surface application of lime or any other amendment actually work its way throughout the soil? We are left with only our own devices as other than employing "thought experiment," I've not seen any satisfactory explanation.

I mean, wouldn't the application of any amendment especially lime and something equally insoluble like phosphorous necessarily result in over saturation of the top level of soil? Wouldn't application of any lime amount result in some portion of the top layer becoming overly alkaline for some period of time? Wouldn't even with spoon feeding smaller amounts two or four times a year to give the previous application time to balance out result in the top layer becoming very alkaline over and over again? Let's say you need 200lbs of lime to reach the desired soil pH level. How much more damaging is it to apply 50lbs twice a year for two years than to apply 10lbs four times a year for 5 years?

The recommendations of professionals and experts vary from 25 to 100lbs per application. You'll need to skim read down to the application rates in each article, but many of the whole articles are pretty informative on liming in general.

http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_managing_soil_ph/

http://njaes.rutgers.edu/pubs/publication.asp?pid=FS635

https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/soil-ph-liming

http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/liming#Quantity

I found your comment about soil texture very interesting as I agree, it never seems to be factored. I've been surfing lawn sites for years and I came across a fellow who I have been following for years and who has been diligently trying to adjust his soil and has done yearly testing for about 5 years. If I remember correctly his soil pH is in the mid 5s, he applies lime 4 times a year at around 10lbs per application, only tests at the 3-4" level and has a clay soil with a TEC around 20. After 5? years his pH hasn't moved. So where is all that lime? I wonder what the pH is of the top inch.

A lot of what we do seems to be a choice between evils.

@Lee Mychajluk

Following danielj_2009's lead, I re-read all of the posts. A lot of well informed people have given great information for your consideration. IMO j4c11 has made great effort to adjust recommendations to your particular needs. I think his recs are very realistic for you. I'm not sure why he dropped the pH adjustment from his most recent bare bones rec and you might want to ask him to clarify, but I'd take his advice and follow his recs.

I'll stick around for any "hot stove" discussions, but as my recs seem to just parrot j4c's for the most part, I think it best that I stay out of the water. Best to you in your journey.

Ah.... I think I'm starting to understand the Residual pH thing. There's a similar concept in maintaining proper pH in aquarium tanks (pH 'buffering', IIRC) that basically affects how fast pH can change, and you don't want to change it too fast either.

Speaking of muddy waters and jar tests, I did one this morning on a mixed sample of the 2 smaller areas immediately adjacent to the house. This pic was taken about an hour of settling (I'll grab another pic later today):

@RR - The Front area is actually one of my lesser concerns, as the grass there seems to come in fairly full and green with few patches, so I don't think I'm going to worry too much about the residual pH test at this time. I'll treat once w/ lime and then concentrate on weed control and fertilization.

@Danielj - Did you mean Ferris Farms in East Brunswick (which I think is Monmouth Cnty)? That's not too far, and I get down that way once in a while. I can get 1200 lbs in my truck, but the question becomes is it cost effective to pay the gas and tolls to go south in NJ just to drive the load ~150mi back north to upstate NY? I'll search around and find a couple of garden centers / agri supply places that would be along my route up to the house and scout out what I can get at each over the next couple of months. But now that I'm starting to understand what I may need and possible limitations on how I can apply it, at least I'll know what kind of questions to ask when I walk into these places.

BTW, the 'Garden' area adjacent to the house on the right was our initial 'main lawn' area when I was a kid. That's where we had the picnic table and BBQ, etc, and the hose spigot is on that side of the house. So, I'm sure when my grandparents were around they inundated that area with lime, topsoil, compost, seed, water, etc..., which is probably why it has the best numbers in the test results. Unfortunately, with the pine trees immediately surrounding this area now being so large, it now doesn't get enough sun for the grass to grow well and has become somewhat mossy. I'll fertilize w/ Potassium and Nitrogen per your recommendations, and maybe look into aerating it and over seeding with a shady grass mix to see if I can get some of the grass to grow back.

I keep mixing up Front and Hill areas. :(.

If it ain't broke (and observation is as good an indicator as any), why fix it? :) At pH 4.9, keep an eye on it though. If it starts to look poorly, you at least know what the issue and cure might be.

@danielj_2009
and others around the stove,

I got to thinking about what you said about speed of lime
and particle size. Besides any physical leaching due particle size, I wondered if
particle size and speed and amount of change might be the biggest influence on quantity of lime that gets recommended. The quotes you gave above refer to
25lbs for some limes but warn against exceeding bag rate for the "new
fast acting" limes. Is the grind that big of a factor? I had my doubts.
So I did a search to find the chemical analysis of lime products. To my
disappointment, most products don't provide one. Most just say "derived
from limestone." That could include a lot of different components.

Finally, I found this: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/41/417ecb06-d1a5-40cb-975a-78de1d1028f2.pdf

PENNINGTON

®

FAST ACTING™ LIME Plus AST

®

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Calcium (Ca)............................................................................................. 24%

Magnesium (Mg) ...................................................................................... 6%

Calcium Oxide (CaO) ............................................................................... 30%

Magnesium Oxide (MgO)......................................................................... 15%

Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) ................................................................ 55%

Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) ...........................................................30%

Moisture (maximum) ................................................................................ 1%

Calcium Carbonate Equivalence (CCE) .................................................... 90%*

Neutralizing Value 90% Calcium Carbonate Equivalence (CCE)

Derived from dolomitic limestone

F525In Florida, this product requires 2000 pounds to be equal to one ton of standard liming material.

That is a fair amount of calcium oxide (quick lime) and magnesium oxide. Both are extremely caustic, meaning among other things, they destroy living tissue. I know from personal experience that quick or "hot" lime will burn the heck out of your skin. I think the oxide content of the Pennington fast acting lime might help explain some of the difference in lime amount recommendations (from 6 up to 100lbs) and why the manufacture of this product advises 6-10lbs. Makes me question what the other fast acting (or other) lime products contain when the say "derived from limestone." Just another brick for the wall even if it doesn't clear things up.

Update:

http://www.espoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/LightningLimeFactSheet1.pdf

http://encap.net/lawn-mineral-nutrients/fast-acting-lime/#tab-id-3

http://www.solu-cal.com/media/pdf/msds-sheets/11010%20Solu-Cal%20Calcitic%20Lime%20SDS%202015.pdf

http://www.acgmaterials.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Product-Data-Sheet-MINI-PRILLED-LIMESTONE-112116.pdf

http://www.jonathangreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/magicallabel.pdf

http://mda.maryland.gov/plants-pests/Documents/limestones.pdf

@Lee. You should make observations at 2 minutes, 2 hours and 2 days. 2 minutes is sand, 2 hours silt and 2 days clay. Maybe you could shake it all up and observe what settles in 2 or 3 minutes.

@danielj_2009

In that Umass link a couple of posts above, they do mention adjusting application rates based on soil texture. So there you go. :)

danielj_2009 +1, Ridgerunner 0.

I shook up the jar and here's a pic after a couple of minutes:

FWIW, here's the pre-re-shake, which would've been about 7 hours:

2 Hour Photo (same mark as in dirst photo w/ ruler above):

@lee: That's some nice beachfront property you have there! Probably "loamy sand or sandy loam" as expected. Send the final photo after everything settles out, if you would.

http://tinyurl.com/henlnar

Yes, Ferris Farms in East Brunswick is what I was referring to. Here is a list of some other manufacturers. Maybe give a call to the ones in NY and see if they have it in you area, or call local stores around your beach house and see if they carry anything.

http://www.sludgenews.org/about/sludgenews.aspx?id=5

@Ridgerunner: I thought the main difference between fast acting and regular limestone was the particle size. If you look at two bags I think the fast acting will definitely have much more under 200 mesh size. I did read in one of your links about avoiding hydrated (CaOH2) or "baked" (CaO) lime, so I wonder about that Pennington stuff, particularly in a soil with such low CEC, but again I'm no expert.

48 Hour Jar Photo:

On a side note, though I've stated previously that I didn't want to spend too much money on buying product that I was just going to throw on the ground, a local Sears was going out of business, so I bought 5 x 15lb bags (5k sq/ft ea.) of Grubex for $50 (for treating later this summer), 3 x 50lb bags of mostly perennial rye for another $50 (in case I want to over seed after the summer), and 3 x 16lb buckets of Preen for my mom's flower beds for $45. So, it's ON!

Hi, all! Just wanted to drop back in with a mid-summer update and to say thanks again! The lawn is definitely shaping up! The 'Hill' has filled in and greened up nicely, and I even have some grass growing to the right of the house under the pine trees where it was mostly moss before.

I wasn't able to follow all the suggestions, but they did get me thinking along the right lines. I've applied a few lime treatments going back to March (~6 week intervals) to get the pH up, and have been using various brands of '4 Step' fertilizers (whichever I could get on sale). I used the one w/ crabgrass preventer early on in March. Around Memorial Day, I spot-sprayed Trimec on the larger patches of weeds, followed a week or two later with a general application of a Weed-N-Feed to the entire lawn. There was also GrubEx and Pesticides application in there somewhere, mostly in the areas around the house and the fruit trees. Oh, and I had rented an aerator and ran it around the hill and the near house (note to self.... next time, rent ride-on unit!).

I was up at the house this past weekend, and w/ a 2-week gap since the last cut, I barely saw any dandelions in the lawn, which I'm thrilled with. :D Weeds under control - check!

In the next few weeks I'm planning 'Round 3' of my fertilizer regiment. I was going to wait for Labor Day, but since this summer is so cool (long-term forecast for the house for the rest of August barely breaks into the 80's), I'm thinking I may do an application next weekend, then the 'Winterizer' around early Nov.

However, there are also a few bare spots that still need addressing. I've tried simply overseeding them earlier in the year (not too close to any weed-killer applications), but they're being stubborn. Next weekend, I was going to try to rake them out again, overseed, and then cover w/ a starter fert (or Miloganite?) and top soil mix, then leave it be (with a sprinker where possible) for about 3 weeks until Labor Day. Given the temps previously mentioned, do you think this would be too early for this? If I wait unitl Sept, nights can dip down to around 40.

I did get a few pics yesterday, and will try and post them up tonight if anyone is interested.

I think I'm definitley heading in the right direction for next year, when I can concentrate on just getting the whole lawn thicker and more uniform.

Hill Looking Good

Some bare spots that still need attention

And a few spots of weeds that need to be addressed