Contractor dispute. No docs. He said/she said. How would you handle?

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

Short version: GC says we owe money for extra work that was done by a sub. We thought it was included. There's no documentation on this either way. Now what to do?

We've spent a ton of
money (way over $100K) with a GC to remodel our kitchen, bathroom, and other
work around the house. (It's a total contractor's market here. We were
"lucky" to find someone to even do a "small" project like
this. Silicon Valley economics.)

We've been paying in
installments as the project went along. Now, in the final invoice, there's a
surprise charge of $1200 for dovetail construction and upgraded lazy susans.

We agree that we
asked for both. However, in our recollection, when we talked to his cabinet
sub, the guy said "of course" for dovetail, and "no
problem" for upgraded lazy susans. (The sub was really patronizing.)

Now the GC is saying
that the sub told us it would be $1200 more - that dovetail construction is an
unusual request.

A yelling match
ensued the day my spouse and the GC met to review the invoice. (I had to take
an emergency phone call from work.) The GC said he already paid his sub, and
wasn't making any money on this - said we weren't being honest - said we
weren't being adults.

This is the point
where the smart people would say: "Well, what did the contract say?"
Unfortunately, we were total newbies and have nothing written down about these
two particular requirements.

In fact - the GC and
us cannot even agree on when this conversation happened: before or after the
general contract was signed! Heck, it doesn't seem like the GC knows when this
conversation even happened. (I believe it was before signing.)

The GC does good
work. I have a lot more work that needs to be done. I was really hoping to use
him again. But this is a pretty nasty dispute.

I have a meeting
with him coming up, since he doesn't want to talk to my spouse.

I was thinking of
offering 3 choices: $0 for a great Yelp review, $600 for a good Yelp review
that mentions this dispute, $1200 for a Yelp review that's entirely about this
dispute.

This feels like it
would put him in a corner though, which may further escalate things.

Thoughts on what you
would do in this situation?

(without building a time machine and getting
everything in writing like a smart person would)

Featured Answer

dan1888

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

Dovetail drawers are a common standard component in cabinet construction. The cab sub orders them from a supplier. It's no problem. Most mid grade and up cabinet drawers come with dovetail box construction. Another common drawer component is Blumotion slides possibly with soft close. Talking to the sub before he gives a quote about these is a normal practice. A specific type of lazy susan is the same. This is locking down components that affect the construction. Once the sub knows these parts are part of the project he can determine his costs and give the GC a price for the number of cabinets this particular job requires him to supply. The same applies to different door styles and wood varieties, paint finishes or other finishing affects. I'm sure you picked those too. There is no standard price because every kitchen has a different number of cabinets of different types. One kitchen can have $3k in cabs and the next $10k. That's why the cab sub is there before the contract price is presented. You told him what you wanted. He told the GC what his part of the job would cost. The GC figured his total cost and profit and gave you a price. You accepted his offer. That's all you owe.

The sub is trying to overcharge the GC. He needs to go back to the sub for a refund. Which is probably something he has a lot of power to do because the sub has worked with him and wants to continue working with him on future jobs. Stand firm. Don't accept his verbiage about not making any money. He's making a healthy amount for his work.

Next time you work with him require a complete list of specs as part of his contract offer. Write in any changes in pen before you sign. They supersede printed provisions and are controlling when the contract is signed.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (22)

User
7 years ago
I'm confused.

Verbal deals, no specifics, no oversight and nothing in writing.

$100K and you are quibbling about $1K? And you like this guys work, have more work to do, and would probably have trouble finding some other contractor?

And if you stonewall him, he either tales you to small claims court or puts a lien on your property.

I'd say $1,200 is a very inexpensive lesson on how business should be done when hiring people.
homehomeandmorehome
7 years ago
You do not want to show anger. Your "offer" to the contractor may be interpreted as blackmail. Do not do that.

Even if you do not want to work with this particular contractor, Word will spread that your nightmare customers, and if you have more work to do, that is the last thing you want. In fact, it evolved into a roaring match (at $ 1,200? Really?) you said there are currently over 100K good work, and honestly do not look good to you as clients. The customer changes the order all the time and then gets angry when the extra cost. The contractor should have been approved in writing for additional prosecution, but because he did not, you're not writing, these extras are included, I say "live and learn", especially since you have more work Need to be done, the amount is not outrageous in the grand plans of things.

Pay him and move on.
Related Discussions
What our new contractor said (my jaw is dropping)
Q
Comments (17)
A couple of things... "Grout" is probably deck mud. Could be regional, could be poor word choice on the part of your new contractor. "Deck mud" is a lean portland cement mixture, generally 5 parts sand to 1 part portland cement. Mixed with just enough water so it sticks together like beach sand used to build a sand castle. It's not concrete, it's not mortar, it's not grout, it's deck mud, or dry pack. Saving the "pan" for re-use? Nope. Have them provide you with a new membrane. Take a good look at the cross section of the shower that terricks posted. If the membrane is flat on the floor but still water-tight, all you're going to get is a slow drying shower floor. The mud bed under the tile may saturate. The grout may stay wet for extended periods and mildew. You might see wet grout at the bottom courses of wall tile due to water wicking up the walls a bit. But the curb? The curb structure should still be as dry as a bone. There's either a leak in the membrane; in the membrane itself, at the clamping drain, in a corner, or the membrane is not properly detailed despite being flat on the floor. Despite the membrane being flat on the floor, the curb should not be wet and blowing apart due to swelling. So there is no way on earth they can reuse the "pan" or membrane. Also look at Terrick's graphic, where the membrane turns up the shower walls. The membrane should run 8" to 10" up the shower walls. You can see that the membrane goes against the wall studs. The poly or felt runs down the wall and laps over the membrane, The cement board or tile backer board then goes on the wall, but does not get screwed or nailed where the membrane is. Remember, no fasteners through the membrane. The only places where the membrane gets fastened is at the top edge where it runs up the walls to secure it to the wall studs. On the outside face of the curb. And it also gets clamped at the drain. So how in the world are they going to remove the membrane without removing the bottom rows of wall tile and cutting away the bottom section of tile backer board? "He will construct a new curb is damaged"? The curb is most definitely damaged. The wood most likely expanded due to moisture absorption, right? So that wood will not be used either. What Bill needs to do is: 1) demo the curb to the membrane. 2) Demo the shower floor, remove tile and deck mud to expose the membrane. 3) remove the bottom few rows of wall tile up about 10" to 12" above the height of the shower drain. 4) Cut the tile backer board horizontally a couple of inches below the bottom of the remaining course of wall tile. Careful when cutting, as you don't want to cut into the felt or poly (6-mil thick polyethylene plastic sheeting or #15 tar paper). 5) Fold up the poly or felt and tape it to the tile higher up on the wall. 6) Undo the clamping drain and remove the membrane. Toss it, it's no good. 7) Make any repairs to the exposed subfloor. Then rebuild it properly. The guy doesn't want you there? doesn't even want to see you? Right. He's really earned the right to work unsupervised, hasn't he. To let him work unsupervised is not a wise move. I think letting him do the work is not wise. He's not trustworthy. But that's my opinion. But my other opinion is that either you are there or your new contractor is there. He's already proven to be untrustworthy and to not do proper work. Remember, the core issue is not just a flat membrane. Water somehow got under the membrane to saturate the curb. I'd want to see the membrane detailing around the curb. The folds at the inside corners, see if there are any nails or screws in the top or inside face of the curb. The thing is that if he didn't detail the folds or if he put fasteners through the membrane the first time, he's going to do it again. He'll just do it with a sloped membrane instead of a flat membrane. I will raise a warning flag about your new contractor. So okay, we know the membrane wasn't sloped. But why did the curb swell and expand? How did water get under the membrane and into the structure of the curb? I'm not sure if your new guy knows how the curb failed, or if he knows how to repair a shower, or how to build one. I'd want eyes on the project when the demo is carried out. I'd want to see the membrane with the tile and mud off of it. I'd want to see if he just nailed cement board to the faces of the curb, nailing right through the membrane. I'd want to see if he nailed through the bottom edge of the backer board on the walls, nailing through the membrane, creating little holes. Hey, maybe your #1 guy did a great job (with the exception of not sloping the membrane) and it was an errant something or other that accidentally poked a hole in the membrane. Or maybe he's ignorant and apathetic when it comes to building a proper shower. My vote is that your #1 contractor is #2.
...See More
We said goodbye to Ginger on Friday
Q
Comments (28)
I'm so sorry about your Ginger girl. Pets are such a wonderful part of our lives, so forgiving, loving, honest, on and on. Ginger was a lucky girl to have you too. Adopting a senior is so kind. Sigh, I have a senior nearing her end of life soon. She's 14 1/2 , can hardly see or hear , her enzymes have been off the chart for years and she keeps on ticking. It will be hard seeing her go even though I've been preparing for this for quite a while. I imagine as always, time will heal the tears and our other pets will need our attention. It's still a tough time.
...See More
What would you have said???
Q
Comments (20)
Ugh! I just don't understand parents who don't think about their children's welfare. Ima, from what I understand, BM lives 3 hours away from you in one direction, and BM's mother and other daughter live 1 hour away in the opposite direction? I would have offered to bring sister as far as our house, with grandma picking her up for the rest of the ride home. No way would I have made a 2-hour round trip. It's thoughtless that BM would want you to have to do this for her other child, and unforgivable that she made her 9 year old daughter call to ask. This so reminds me of my stepsons' BM. A couple years ago when SS18 was 16 and acting out, he stayed out 2 nights in a row, he disliked me and my rules and couldn't live in our house because of them, and told dad, "It's me or her," and wanted to go live with his BM. BM wanted to "save" son from this horrible, wicked Stepmom. DH asked her, since she lived outside of school district, if she would be able to get son to school. She said, "Of course I'll be able to drive my son to school." This was Saturday. On Sunday, son calls our house to ask if he can sleep over since BM cannot drive him to school on Monday. DH says, "Of course. How are you going to get here?" We hear BM in the background suggesting that dad pick son up. I felt terrible for my SS, since he had just said some mean, hurtful things about me, to have to call and ask if he could come back to our house for a night. But I couldn't understand how his mother would put him in that position. Now that BioMom has moved back east, SS18 goes out to visit her twice a year. We live about 40 minutes from Chicago O'Hare, so DH has always just taken son to the airport and picked him up. The last time, she booked his flight out of Midway, to save on airfare, and still expected DH to do the driving, despite the fact that it is a 3 hour round trip each way. DH called BM and explained he didn't have time to do this driving, and suggested she book a limo for son. She asked if he could do it, pay for it, and she would pay him back. He told her she could do it, and give them her credit card number. I could not imagine putting my kids in a situation where I wouldn't make sure that all the travel arrangements were done, and I would never leave it to someone else to take care of these things for my kids if I could do it myself.
...See More
Contractor said these tiles job are within the industrial standard.
Q
Comments (30)
Had all the tiles ready before I hired this contractor. I told him what I want and he provided his bid. For downstairs bathroom ( bathroom floor, shower wall and shower floor, ) is $1481.25, and the upstairs(around the tub) is $866.25 to lay the tiles. But when he finally came with his tiles man(who claimed he did not do my job just introduced a man who spoke very little english to do the job), I had to change some of my origin ideas to fit in the price quotes. No spacer used for the subway tiles. Tiles are from floor&decor with "leg?" on the edge. No matter what, thanks for everyone who read and response to my on and on problems. By the way, tiny pieces are eyesore, but the lines are really, really bother me.
...See More
ethan51453
7 years ago
Don't do the Yelp thing. Subs will always agree to do things that get you more money, so hopefully you learned your lesson there.

Can you just sit down and say what you said here?

"Look, this situation sucks for both of us. I'm very happy with your work and this whole project and for our relationship to fall apart at $ 1200 would be really unfortunate. I have others in mind for my house and having already found a contractor who I have learned a valuable lesson on documentation and know exactly what happens in my project. How about ... "

And then fill in the blank with what you want to happen.

"... we split the difference and paid $ 600."

"... start documenting things a lot more clearly from here on out. Here is your $ 1200."

"... Read the contract we have signed, let me know when they put an lien on my house and who my lawyer can talk to."
S Rodriguez
7 years ago
So, you don't want to pay for the upgrades ? Sounds like you made a special request.
hillyhouse C
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
I made the request. I don't disagree with that.

Where we disagree was that:

1. I claim I made this request before we signed the master contract and before any work started. The GC claims it happened after we signed the contract.

2. I claim that I was never told of the cost. (The sub literally said "No problem".) The GC claims I was told of the cost verbally.

Putting 1 & 2 together, I claim that I requested this before contract signing and thought it was part of the cabinet fee in the contract. The GC claims the request came after contract signing and was additional.

There is nothing written about this in the contract, emails, or anything else. Hence it is a battle of memories.
roof35
7 years ago
You acknowledge you asked for upgrades. Now you're surprised you got charged for them. And, throw a tantrum about paying for your requests since there's no paper work. I hope you're joking.

You owe not only for your requests, but a huge apology for starting a yelling match.

I had a similar situation back when I was in the business. Trim work for an entire structure except the basement. Builder then also requested trim for the basement. Had a check "ready" for me. Ummm, you don't know the amount. He lost it (like you wrote), I took the check and deposited it as usual. Didn't sign a lien release for him.

Went down to court house and filed papers for a lien for balance. In this State you only have 30 days to file. The interest I requested was highest allowed by State Statue, which was 25% annually. Long story short, he couldn't sell the place when they did a title search. I did get paid plus interest.

Hopefully your GC doesn't let you get under his skin and does what any business person should do. File papers on the address and forget about it.
hillyhouse C
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
And to be clear there were of other situations were additional requests that were priced and agreed on after contract signing.

For example, after the project started I asked for upgraded garbage cans. The sub told me that it would be $200. (The GC then billed me $280.) I also asked the GC shore up the attic after demo - he wrote up a change order and we agreed on it.

But this specific situation I'm referring to happened before contract signing.
hillyhouse C
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Here's an analogy:

Bob: I'd like to buy your car.

Eve: $15,000

Bob: OK. Could you throw in a new coat of paint?

Eve No problem.

Bob and Eve: Sign contract saying $15K.

<2 months later>

Eve: Here's the car

Bob: He's your $15,000

<1 month later>

Eve You owe me another $1K for the paint job

Bob: But we signed a contract, and I paid you $15K already.

Eve: The paint job was an additional $1K.

Bob: But we agreed before we signed the contract. What's the point of the contract then?

Eve: Of course it is extra! Also you asked for this after the contract was signed.

Bob: No, I asked before I signed the contract.

Eve: It was after. And everyone knows that's extra.

Bob: That's why I asked before we signed the contract.

Eve: You asked after.
roof35
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
This story changes as it goes along. I can see why there's confusion.

I have to wonder what a sub would be doing there b/4 any signing with the contract.

If it were discussed b/4 signing the contract. Why would you sign the contract without clear language? Obviously your requests were not in the contract when you signed.
annzetta
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
I think a big part of the misunderstanding here is that the sub responded "no problem" to your request for some special work. You took "no problem" to mean--ok we'll include that as part of the whole job. (no problem = no charge) The sub answered no problem meaning of course he could do that work and of course he would be charging you. Years ago I went to a dermatologist for a check up. I mentioned a small mark that he said was nothing and I said I still didn't like the looks of it--could he remove it? He did right then and said "don't worry about it." I took that to mean it was a freebie. I received a bill for $150. I paid it without comment and realized I have to "listen" not just hear.
hillyhouse C
Original Author
7 years ago
>I have to wonder what a sub would be doing there b/4 any signing with the contract.

I'm curious why you say that. Why is it unusual for the sub to be there before contract signing?

The cabinet sub was there to get details on what we wanted and to come up with an estimate for the GC to give to us. (At that point we were considering getting cabinets from a different vendor and having them delivered.)

And yes - the contract did not discuss this point. The contract was actually pretty vague in some places, completely unintelligible in some places. Many revisions were just to make all the numbers add up.

(To this day, I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to have a contractor write up an acceptable contract without being a contractor himself. The number of potential loose ends are enormous.)
kudzu9
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
He's not trying to gouge you. I can see how there was a misunderstanding, but he did the work. I suggest you pay the man. Trying to blackmail him with Yelp reviews is not the solution. If you think he does good work, and you want him to do more, put this behind you. It is small in the scale of things.
User
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Just write the damn check.

You just cost yourself a lot of money on any future project with anyone who knows this guy. And you might just get that lien if you aren't careful about getting out that checkbook pronto.
roof35
7 years ago
I'm curious why you say that. Why is it unusual for the sub to be there before contract signing?

The purpose of the GC is to get all the details, and quote you a price. Around here to this day, a sub doesn't talk with a customer especially about pricing. You mentioned the sub quoted a price on trash containers. Subs are never to discuss prices with the end user. I'm very surprised a genuine GC would tolerate it. A genuine GC should know construction details and not have to have a mouth piece being the sub.

There's more to the untold part of this story, than the story being told. There are so many similarities I've heard when I was in the business to the story being told here. Most all the time they involved relatives and people were too embarrassed to tell the truth of their situations. Or, they hired the cheapest they could find.

Post your contract, block out all names. I'm sure not just myself, but present contractors and past contractors would love to see the real details.

It doesn't add up.
SaltiDawg
7 years ago
"I'd say $1,200 is a very inexpensive lesson on how business should be done when hiring people."

Agree!
hillyhouse C
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
There's definitely a lot more to this overall story. For example, the original contract was for just the kitchen. 2 weeks into the project, this happened:

Thursday:

Me: How much would it cost to redo this bathroom?

GC: About $20K

Me: I'll think about it. I haven't picked any bathroom stuff yet. When do you need to know by?

GC: Sooner the better. No later than next Tuesday.

Sunday:

Me via Voicemail: I spent the weekend doing some bathroom shopping. I'll let you know by end of Monday because I need to look at my finances.

Monday evening:

I get home. The bathroom had been demo'ed. No contract, no notice.

Luckily I had decided to move forward with this.

--

In hindsight, the fact that English wasn't the GC's primary language was definitely a factor in all of this. (That's partially why the sub was there... the sub's English skills were far better.)

And you're right... the sub never discussed pricing on anything - except the garbage can upgrade - which ended up as part of this current dispute because the sub said it would cost me $200, and the GC charged me $280. (I gave up on this one early on.)
SaltiDawg
7 years ago
So, after you verbally agreed to adding the bathroom remodel, did you draw up a written contract? Seems not. Wow!
geoffrey_b
7 years ago
You should have had a written contract. For $100,000 I would have given a lawyer $250 to read it.

They should have made you sign a change order.

Obviously, you requested additional work, you knew it would cost more.

Pay them.
greg_2015
7 years ago
As you said, this is a "He said ... she said" situation which shouldn't have happened because nothing should be just verbal.

But let's pretend that your version of events is the correct version and you made this request BEFORE and work started or any quoted values were given.

Obviously, you believed the quote you were given included the upgrade. But do you believe that the contractor understood that the upgrade was included? ie. do you think he's being dishonest and is now trying to screw you? Or do you believe that it was an honest mistake and that he forgot to include the upgrade price in the quote?

If you think it was an honest mistake, then just pay for the upgrade and take it as a lesson on how important it is to document things in the future. It's a very small amount in the grand scheme of things.

If you think your contractor is trying to scam you, then you can choose to fight him since you wouldn't want this contractor to work on your house in the future anyways. Whether you'll win or not is another issue.

Personally, I think it was an honest mistake.
PRO
Anglophilia
7 years ago
I recently redid my kitchen. I remember my contractor saying that they would remove the existing under cabinet lighting and reinstall it on the new cabinets. I assumed that he meant that this was part of demo and install fees in contract. I ended up having the handyman who installed the lights remove them as he was here doing other electrical and my cabinet demo guy was VERY slow and time was of the essence. I asked the installer when he was re-installing the lights and he replied "It's not on my work order". It was then I realized that the cost was NOT part of the demo/install contract so I called my GC and asked. He said he thought I meant "COULD" they do the remove/install, not was it included. Just a misunderstanding. I have a feeling that your sub's "No problem" was exactly the same - yes he could do the work but that did not mean you were not going to have to pay an uncharge for it.

It's really a matter of poor communication and not being VERY specific. I now know this.
rwiegand
7 years ago
Just pay the man. You asked for extra work, got a "no problem" response which you misinterpreted, and are now balking at paying for what you asked for.

My dad always told me "Education is expensive", no matter what form it takes. You've just gotten a relatively cheap lesson in the art of clear communication. Pay up and move on.

Contractor dispute. No docs. He said/she said. How would you handle?

dan1888

Comments (22)

User

homehomeandmorehome

Related Discussions

ethan51453

S Rodriguez

hillyhouse C
Original Author

roof35

hillyhouse C
Original Author

hillyhouse C
Original Author

roof35

annzetta

hillyhouse C
Original Author

kudzu9

User

roof35

SaltiDawg

hillyhouse C
Original Author

SaltiDawg

geoffrey_b

greg_2015

Anglophilia

rwiegand

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Contractor dispute. No docs. He said/she said. How would you handle?

Comments (22)

Related Discussions

hillyhouse COriginal Author

hillyhouse COriginal Author

hillyhouse COriginal Author

hillyhouse COriginal Author

hillyhouse COriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

hillyhouse C
Original Author

hillyhouse C
Original Author

hillyhouse C
Original Author

hillyhouse C
Original Author

hillyhouse C
Original Author