Lavenderlace:; With regard to your questiion:
I just looked at New Dawn on HMF. There are photos that look like a large self-supporting shrub, which is what I wanted. Why are mine just lying on the ground, now 12 feet long, heavy and not very flexible?

How old is your New Dawn? Own-roots do that when they are young. My Christopher Marlowe had lying branches all over the ground in its 1st and 2nd year. But now in its 5th year branches are 3 times thicker & stiffer, and no more crawling. I dug it up recently to fix drainage, and the root is chunky & woody, even bigger than Dr. Huey.

Clay soil helps with thicker & stronger stems. BLACK & DENSE reed-sedge peat is a good substitute for clay, but brownish peatmoss or bark chips won't work. Since Minnesota and Michigan are the largest producers of Reed-Sedge black peat, Kelly's thick & strong-stem roses from MN are good testimony.

Today, Dec. 2, I went to Menards to read the ingredients in potting soil. Schultz potting soil is poor-quality, saw chunks of bark-chips inside, mixed with brownish peatmoss and perlite, zero nutrients. I used it this past summer in pots, and Schultz potting soil stunted all my roses with weak stems & nutritional deficiencies & nitrogen shortage.

Espoma soil for cactus stated: "formulated from 40-50% peat humus, sphagnum peat moss, sand, perlite, earthworm castings and dolomitic limestone to adjust ph."

Peat humus is a fancy word for reed-sedge peat, the black stuff sold for $2 per 40 lb. at Ace hardware. I went there too, saw open bags of Ace top soil (big clumps of clay), Ace potting soil (black peat & sand & peat moss & perlite), and Ace peat-humus (reed-sedge peat or black peat). All are on sale for less than $2 per bag, and much blacker than the cheap Schultz potting soil, which looks like grind-up brown wood-chips.

Last year I tested potting soil made of reed-sedge peat, and I was impressed: strong stems, zero nutritional deficiencies, if mixed with perlite & sand to cut-down its denseness.

Thumb-down to the brown peatmoss: I dug up a rose to fix my clay, then left it inside a pot with Jiffy-soil for seed-starter (100% brown peatmoss with lime). Within a month stems became thinner, leaves are smaller due to nitrogen deficiency. Brown peatmoss has zero nutrients, same with sand.

Brown peatmoss is useful for rooting .. some cuttings root better with acidic pH. But for aeration and drainage .. perlite or bark chips is best. And for nutrients for strong stems, black peat humus (reed-sedge peat) is best .. that stuff is used in many potting mixes to provide the black color, and it's less sticky than my heavy clay.

LL, New Dawn's canes are extremely soft & pliable when young so they will naturally fall to the ground, and once it gets established it pumps them out. I have so many new basals after transplanting them all, it's crazy. There are always some short ones in the front of the bush that I leave, but most I try to pull up to the balustrade so they harden in the correct position.

I think you could grow ND as a large shrub OVER some sort of form or through an umbrella trellis and let the canes fall to the ground. That would be beautiful. I'm not sure if it would stay truly shrubby without some sort of armature and more severe pruning. Of course, since she blooms on old wood as well as new with blooms coming behind current ones, you would risk losing a lot of flowers.

Nahema is apparently low on thorns, so I'm thinking of using her for my future pergola.

Still trying to eliminate some from my huge list. : ( I just seem to keep adding to it.

I think that's my problem with New Dawn, just nothing to attach it to but 10' poles in front of a slick wall. I just didn't realize that it would outgrow the poles so fast and now am faced with another investment or moving them.

Straw, regarding the pots, is it OK if they just stay in the dark garage all winter rather than moving them in and out? That's what I did for the first couple of quick freezes.

Our forecast was for a mild winter but I don't think that we even had a freeze until February last year so I thought that I had time but low twenties this week.

Plus, I have Evelyn and some others arriving tomorrow. I was going to put Evelyn straight into the ground but now maybe I should wait until spring?

We had several days of high wind and rain and the roses are so wet and heavy that some of the branches are breaking. So I tried to lighten them up by by cutting the flowers as usual (even though I was trying to stop!).

I'm so worried that nothing is hardened up sufficiently for this kind of weather. What happens to all the buds after days of a hard freeze? All are still putting out new growth and many are still covered in roses and buds.

My oldest are New Dawn, which were planted in June. I'm not as worried about these because no blooms and they seem extremely tough!

By the way, for lavender lovers, Singin' the Blues is covered in blooms and they are already fragrant. A pinker color than some of the others but fades to lavender.

Also, if they keep their leaves all winter, will they still bloom normally in the spring? Aren't there some kinds that have to go dormant or else?

I've read (no experience) that it's better to just leave them inside and that some will drop their leaves and others won't depending on the rose. I think Straw's above comments support that. There are certain classes of roses that like a cool spell, but I think they're mainly OGRs. Please someone correct me if I'm spouting nonsense. : )

Rosecanadian actually takes all her leaves off, but mentioned that's partly to keep the mess contained. You could put plastic underneat to catch the leaves and make clean up easier. I keep many plants over the winter and keep them in the dark and give a little water when I think about it.

I think eventually the buds of some just get frozen. My NewDawn and numerous others are still keeping their buds and blooming, whereas DarkDesire buds/flowers froze during our first light freeze and never recovered.

My New Dawn is against a low balustrade. For my new wall climbers, I've used metal post supports and standard 8' tall posts with SS wire stapled in a criss-cross pattern 12" apart. It's super sturdy. When they grow that tall, I'll suspend some animal fencing from the balustrades since they are at the top of the wall. My garden is on multiple levels.

Any other thoughts anyone on my choices above?

Vaporvac: MAC (last choice) is a HUGE bush the size of a van. When I researched on hybrid musk, I crossed out Penelope (no raving on that one), but many folks raved about Felicia's fantastic scent. Also some folks complained that Climbing PInkie is stingy.

Lanvenderlace: I'm keeping Geranium Red with 2 buds inside my dark & unheated zone 5a garage for the past 1 month (before it dipped down to below 32 F). Leaves look the same & still healthy &2 buds still look good.

The only time gallon-size own-root lost leaves was when I kept it outside past 20 F. If you are out of space in your garage, and HAVE TO plant own-roots outside right now, safe choices would be Austin roses hardy to zone 5, like Evelyn, but with hay & leaves & or top-soil up to 4 inch to keep moist.

Evelyn is a child of Graham Thomas and Tamora. Graham Thomas is a water-hog. My concern about keeping it inside the garage is the need for frequent watering. Evelyn will die of dryness first, before coldness.

Vaporvac is right about certain Old Garden roses need winter-chill to bloom well, such as Gallicas, damasks, and Albas. Radio Times has damask scent, and is very winter-hardy, it rooted itself through zone 5a winter and gave me a baby in spring !!

Austin roses are a cross between Old Garden roses and modern roses. Constance Spry is half-Gallica, and is the parent of the "myrrh" scent in Austin roses. The myrrh scent like Scepter'd isle, Mary Magdalene, Queen of Sweden are VERY WINTER-HARDY, easily survived my zone 5a winter even as tiny own-root, as long as it's planted before the ground freeze.

When the flowers and buds freeze, do you just leave them on the plant to signal that it's winter? I wasn't planning on cutting them off but some of the roses are huge and heavy, especially when wet, and are breaking the branches in the high winds.

On the pots, so I should just put them in the garage with limited light until spring with occasional watering? That plan certainly seems easier than lugging them in and out, though I did invest in little dollies for everybody.

If there's a couple of weeks of lovely weather, is it better or worse to put them back out and potentially start growing again? Or does it matter since they will be protected from hard freezes?

On all the new ones outside (majority), there's really nothing to do other than mulch and hope, right?

VV, I don't mean to derail your thread with questions, so sorry. But maybe our conversations will keep it at the top of the lists so people who have grown those varieties will see it! I've heard good things about climbing Clotilde Soupert regarding disease resistance and seen some beautiful pictures.

Oops, Straw's helpful post loaded for me after I wrote more questions, sorry!

Lavenderlace: When a branch breaks, it can kill the rose, like my Firefighter branch broke during spring wind, then it died. It's safe to prune AFTER freezing temp, to prevent canes from breaking. There's the danger of canker if pruned during wet & gloomy weather with no bright sun to kill fungus. I would sterilize the pruner with alcohol, and prune when it's dry & full-sun.

I would check the hardiness of each own-root rose. If a rose is hardy to zone 5, like Austin roses, it's best to put into the ground BEFORE the ground freezes. You will risk losing leaves through the winter, but if you have decent rain & snow through the winter, that will benefit the root greatly to be in the ground. Roots can still grow when the temp. is above 58 F, so the ones in the ground will be far ahead of those inside the garage.

If a rose is hardy to zone 6b and above, I would keep in a dark & unheated garage to force it dormant, or to let it sleep. Bringing roses in, and out from light to darkness, or from cold to warm, is very hard on them. Roses want to hibernate in the winter, just like animals. Steady cold temp. is best for them.

Since you have sandy/loamy soil, there's no risk of soaking wet & icy feet to kill roots, but roots will dry out, if there's nothing on top.

LL,I welcome any and all comments on my posts. I do it all the time. There's no derailing and am happy to share my little knowledge with anyone. I consider my posts as a conversation that goes all over the place before returning to the main topic (or not!) . :) We're all among friends here and have learned so much from everyone's questions and comments. I'm sorry I gave that impression; just didn't want any other future readers to think that conversation was finished. I really know and love ND so am happy to encourage you to persist. I can't even express how much I love that rose, but she's easy for me to take care of on a low balustrade.

Oh, thank you both!

VV, I appreciate your encouragement with ND. Don't forget that I haven't seen her bloom yet so I've had a harder time being patient with her, especially since she has been attacking people, LOL! But the pictures of her are divine so can't wait for next year.

Straw, thanks so much for that pot advice. It makes perfect sense that bringing them in and out in extreme temperatures would be hard on them.

But I have to admit that it's scary to put out my Evelyn that's arriving today out in the hard freeze that's coming. Maybe I should just wait on her for a few days until it's over or the sooner the better?

Lavenderlace: I'm looking out the window right now, with more than foot of snow on the ground. Evelyn's leaves are still green & perky, even after I dug that up a few days ago to fix drainage !! We already went through 1 month of temp. fluctuate between 32 and 20 F. I would wait until the temp. is above freezing (more than 35 F) to plant Evelyn outside .. then layer black peat-potting soil, some leaves & alfalfa hay, then another layer of black peat.

Black-peat potting soil is cheaper than brown-peat-moss potting soil. Plus black peat has neutral to alkaline pH and that will balance out the acid given off by leaves or alfalfa hay. Black peat has more nitrogen & silica for stronger stems. Layering or "lasagna" is better than mix-in organics. Layering prevents leaves from sticking together.

My clay always glue up with pine-fines into concrete. But one year I "layer" clay, another layer of pine-fines, another layer of clay .. and that stayed fluffy for years.

Wow, still green in a foot of snow! That never occurred to me. Is that only Evelyn and your Austins that behave like that?

I have access to a lot of fresh manure (alfalfa-fed) that is mixed with pine shavings. Would this be safe to bank around some of my newer plants, especially on the north side?

I know not to put it in the hole but does it need to age before spreading it on top? I've read that some people think it works fantastic and others say beware.

Lavenderlace: ALL my Austins behave like that. Thus in 2011 I planted tiny-band-size Austin roses after Thanksgiving, before it dipped down to 20's .. and they survived zone 5a winter (-20 to -30 below zero with wind chill). Except for band-size Eglantyne in a high-wind & poor drainage clay. It was the poor drainage clay that killed it, same with many decade-old trees in 2015 wet winter.

In 2011 late fall, I got fresh horse manure (mixed with bark-shavings). I tested the pH and it was over 8. So I got a $10 Huge bag of brown-Canadian-peat-moss (pH 4), plus alfalfa meal (pH 5.8) and mixed with the horse manure to winterize my roses. That gave the best spring flush ever, due to neutral pH, plus moisture-retention & high nutrient alfalfa meal.

Looking back I should had layered those stuff, easier than mixing. Alfalfa hay DOES NOT STINK nor attract dogs like alfalfa meal, and is much higher in nitrogen. Layering high-nitrogen source like stinky chicken manure NPK 5-3-2, alfalfa hay NPK 3-2-1, or alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2 along with horse manure helps it to BREAK DOWN FASTER.

Blood meal NPK 12-0-0 is high in nitrogen iron, and can be sprinkled between layers of horse manure to help it decompose faster. OK to use such organics after killing frost, nitrogen won't be activated until the weather warms up in spring.

Alfalfa hay is cheap $8 per bale, but messy and sprout some weeds .. since you have loamy soil, those weeds can be pulled easily. Woodchips rob soil of nitrogen, and nitrogen should be added to horse manure.

So if I do manure w/shavings now, then it's OK until this weekend when I can find some peat to layer on top?

That's such a relief to hear about the Austins. Wonder if the Kordes will behave the same?

Thanks Straw!

Layer of black peat on top is great to neutralize acidic ran. Black peat has the best "buffering" capacity, that's why my Austin-own-roots planted in Scott's top soil (50% black peat) didn't have any blackspots for the first 2 years, then the roots get woodier & chunkier and could not handle poor drainage clay.

Kordes roses: A bit less winter-hardy than Austin roses, but you have the advantage of loamy/sandy soil, and zone 8b. Just need to pile up organics on top to lock-in moisture through winter.

Kordes fall into 2 categories:

1) Rugosa heritage, which is very thorny, drought-tolerant & like sandy/loamy soil, but HATE lime, and HATE clay. Examples: Golden Fairy Tale, South Africa, Zaire.

2) Multiflora heritage, which is almost thornless, lavender/purple color, like Poseidon, Deep Purple .. these multiflora-genetics make them water-hogs: like acidic rain & loamy soil, but become stingy when there's no rain.

Poseidon looks so beautiful to me. Do you smell any fragrance at all? I was tempted to buy it but Chamblee's was sold out and I heard that it didn't like heat anyway.

Poseidon: Not much fragrance, and it needs tons of rain water to bloom. Plus blooms become ugly brownish in the rain. I ordered Barbra Streissand for next spring .. I have a hunch that I'll like that better than Poseidon. Fragrancenutcutter listed Barbra as more fragrant than Young Lycidas.

Such a pretty color though. Thanks all for the additional info!

That's very good info, Kelly and Straw on the drying brown petals on Poseidon. I had never considered this issue (I'd only grown roses that dropped their petals cleanly) before visiting a regional rose park where I saw what a horrid mess some of these roses made if not dead-headed. It really swayed my choices, especially for climbers that may require a ladder to access.

After much research and help from this thread and others, I've FINALLY eliminated 10 whole roses from the list! However, I'm still undecided on Cl. Clotilde Soupert due to balling issues, and Cl Pinkie due to possible sparse rebloom. The area for Cl Pinkie is on the North facing wall that is generally only seen between June and mid-Sept. so I'd like good Summer repeat. I've read Renae and Cl. China doll are often used instead of Cl.P, but haven't seen any references for the shade tolerance of either. I don't have to make up my mind yet, but I'd sleep better if I did. : ) Thoughts anyone?

VV, that's such a good point about the dead-heading. I used to get frustrated when I would cut something and it would shatter but now I realize that the others are actually more high-maintenance!

I wish that I could help you with your climber dilemma but I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my slick north wall also. New Dawn is still there but I've warned her to pack her bags multiple times because I want to replace her with tall shrubs.

Literally been out there with shovels and then something came up to delay the move. She has since repaid me by attacking more people, LOL!

And congrats on eliminating 10 roses from your list. No easy task!

I saw your gorgeous picture of New Dawn on another thread. No wonder you love her so much! I will too if she ever produces flowers like that for me.

There was something that looked like black plastic behind her. Is that something that helps her climb your wall? I love the antique look of that stone. Mine is just a building wall, nothing picturesque about it at all unfortunately.

Thanks for the rah-rah, LL. It's so nice to have this forum to share our successes AND failures. If failure eventually leads to success, I should be an expert by now. : )

Eliminating 10 roses WAS hard, but just as hard is not adding any back! In fact, I've also ditched Cl. C. Soupert. I don't want to risk it and have other choices. So it's just between Cl. Pinkie, Renae and Cl.China Doll. I also just read about Victorian Memory, but think it's probably for full sun only. the best solution would probably be to ask burling since she sells them.

I don't know which pics of ND you mean, but I think the black stuff is just weed fabric I stupidly put down or maybe you saw a pic of my Viking Queens. I do have some plastic mesh to keep them up off the ground and onto the balustrades until the canes are longer. My balustrade is less than 4' tall so it easy to grow climbers along it. I've taken my own advice and am going to put my "extra" ND along my driveway's 6' tall fence where it has 35' to sprawl. I'm planting her with a Kordes Florentina. Will report back how that works out. You can count on ND looking pretty and enhancing whatever space she goes, so don't worry.

My wall is the retaining part capped by the balustrades on the upper level and very plain. It's all in for major repair this spring as I didn't have time to get to it in the Fall. I've decided to grow Mme A. Carriere on the 20' section as she can take it to -4 at least and also grows well in Ma. I considered a once bloomer Mme Plantier, but will give MAC a go first.

So are the balustrades what you attach your climbers to or something else? That's been my biggest problem, finding something to attach to over 10' tall. ND's blooms shatter on their own without deadheading, right?

I saw something that looked like hard plastic but pictures can be deceiving. If I run across the pics again, I'll make a note of what rose it was but think it might have been an older thread.

LOL on failures leading to success!

VV, what did you end up doing with your wall? My north wall New Dawn's are still there!!

I want something that wafts, so was going to go with Marie Daly, though she's tiny, but not sure if she'll take the shade, especially in the fall when it's all shade. Then was convinced I would go with Heritage since it's thornless and does well in shade. But it needs a ton of water that might kill my very tall cypresses.

Then thought about Kordes Sunbelt series, but this is a clay area that they don't seem to like. But First Crush is such a trooper with shade! But doesn't it look just like Quietness which gets rave reviews, except for scent?

Then I decided that even though scent is my priority, I would try Koko Loco since I can't smell it there anyway and the color might have an antique look to it. Or might just look like it's dying, LOL! Supposed to take heat and shade.

Round and round I go!

Hi LL. SORRY I didn't respond to your Dec. questions! I'm going to blame it on the holidays. : ) Anyway, my balustrades are only 4' tall so NewDawn and Viking Queen run along them horizontally and I just step into the 5'-6' deep beds to tend them. Yes, ND does generally drop her petals cleanly, but I started assiduously deadheading them this year and have gotten much more bloom than when I just lopped them off after a flush.

I can email you pics of the set-up I have for the wall if you pm me your email. It's basically fence posts held in place with metal fence post holders like these: metal fence post support My posts are 8' tall, since I plan to hang heavy wire fencing from the upper balustrades for the rest of the height. You could get taller posts. Then I criss-crossed SS heavy duty wire stapled into the posts. One could also use animal fencing. This is very sturdy set-up that gives good air flow, and can be painted to match the wall behind. (I haven't done that yet.)
(On the hard plastic thing, was it blue? I have air vents on my drainage I should probably paint a dark colour.)

About your climbers, I do the same thing since I have so many different places for them. Is your bed deep? Do you already grow Darlow's Enigma? It grows tall and is fragrant, but thorny. Also single flowers, but a lot of them. I'm going to try rooting some from a friend to put on the North wall of my house.

Do you grow First Crush? (Sorry if I asked before.) I have one and don't know where to put it permanently. If it can take some shade I hate to "waste" it in one of my prime sunny spots. I really have to decide what to plant next to my Dark Desire when I move Anne Boleyn. I'm considering First Crush, Gruss an Aachen and Quietness. Any thoughts? I will review my climbing options to see if there are any for your situation.

For my very tall N.wall, I'm going with Mme. Alfred Carriere. For the shorter 9" N walls, I'm using Bubble Bath, Belinda and Cl. Felicia. On the perpendicular Western Arch, I'm putting another Viking Queen. I had REALLY wanted Cl Clotilde Soupert, but was afraid of balling, so I hope to root another MmeAC if those three aren't enough. I'm still ordering Parade, I just don't know if she'll go on this wall or the future pergola. I hope it doesn't look stupid with so many different ones, but it's hard to know what will do best. I'm also being gifted a Brother Cadfael that I plan to use to cover the buttress that helps support the wall. I hope this helps you. P.S. I have to look a nd see if you posted a pic of your wall. That would really help me visualize.

I think that the hard plastic thing was black but can't remember now, so sorry!

Thanks so much for your tips, know exactly what you are talking about. I think that I was hoping that ND would magically just grow up without any assistance since she was listed as a shrub as well as a climber.

Did you get your order sorted out from ARE? That's actually where I would love to find something since they are two gallon and can get it here in one or two days.

I was thinking that Reine des Violettes might work but I have several that I bought this fall that aren't really doing anything, even the one shielded from weather in a pot.

I've decided what made the cut, just pondering if I want to get any extra for the free shipping. I think I have enough. There are a couple of things I might get from Burling...ie. Sweet Chariot. I'm also loving Stormy Weather and Night Owl these days to go with my future gifted Molyneaux. New Dawn could grow as a specimen shrub, but you would need a lot of space. When I neglected my garden these past years, she basically grew that way out into my grass! One thing good about ND's thorns is they can be used to attach her to the wire! Her thorns basically stick to the balustrades and I only use panty hose to attach the really long ones that might detach in the wind.

I think that our posts crossed!

My wall is just a cream colored steel shop wall that I'm trying to make not look so industrial but can't attach much on the north side because of doors, golf carts, etc... Just need something to grow up on its own because the cream will make it hard to hide any fences! This is NOT a beautiful stone wall like yours!

I have a lot of First Crush. Some grown in a prime spot, some in a place that will get scorching afternoon sun only in the summer and zero sun in the fall. After the no sun ones tried hard to bloom just like the prime ones, I put several in some difficult spots (clay which nothing seems to like) to test them further.

I haven't had them that long but they seem pretty tough and the flowers are prettier than the official photos, IMHO.

I think that I'm not being as smart as you with my wall choices because I keep wanting scent as a priority. But this is an area that I can't even see, let alone smell, most of the time!

I just saw some Brother Cad pics that were swoon-worthy!

ARE has free shipping? How do I keep missing all of these sales?

If I ignored ND, would she turn into a shrub? It's hard for the guys to mow around those LONG canes that just lie there though.

I thought ARE had free shipping on 4+ roses ordered until the end of November. Is it still going on or do they have another one??

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.18773&tab=2

Above is link to Burlington Rose nursery, cheapest shipping cost: she can fit 6 roses into a flat-rate-medium box ($13), and her band-size own-root roses are less than $15 each, and even less for mini-roses.

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. This was the sale in Nov. I ordered a lot and they said I could change my order and add if desired and still get the free shipping. I decided since I was going to order anyway it was the best deal for 2 gal. plants. They may offer it next year as this was the first time they ever have.

Burling has great shipping for her bands.

Just now saw our crossed posts, LL. I feel you on the fragrance. Anything I buy almost has to have at least some fragrance. On my fence I have ND which is very fragrant to my nose, so I didn't care that Florentina is less fragrant.

With the post idea nothing is attached to the wall and with posts painted the wire is invisible. Believe me, ND will cover the wall. How deep is the bed...that's my real difficulty imagining this space. Did you post a pic on another thread? I'm having a flashback. I always see roses described as tall and narrow. Perhaps that might be a way to go and move ND next to your fence, or look at the Hybrid Musks, many of which are low thorn. Have you looked at MACarriere?

P.S. Thank you for the details on FCrush. EXACTLY the info I wanted. I'm going to plant it on the lower level either in a space that only gets morning sun or probably in the bed that gets good sun all day May-Sept. along with MACarriere, Tess and Quietness. (Thanks Kelley for info on Q's shade tolerance.) What's the growth habit of FC.... tall? bushy?

I haven't posted any pictures of my tragic looking shop wall, LOL! But I have around 15 feet on one side of an electric garage type door that will get most of the foot traffic so I want to stay as close to the building as possible. That's why I've been so resistant to build any type of fencing, plus I've decided that climbers aren't fun for me because of the time involved and the thorns!

It gets scorching hot afternoon sun in the summer and then zero in the fall, plus a clay foundation to grow in. So it's not the most desirable place in the world! I just measured some ND canes at 14 feet now so the darn things are still growing though! I might give in but I like the moving them to an existing fence idea better.

Don't forget that I'm not as enthralled with them yet because I haven't seen a single bloom! All bets are off this spring!

My FC seem to be bushy but will probably be taller than they are supposed to be, like most of mine.

Here's one that might be good for you. It's hardy, fragrant, no thorns and good bloomer up north. It's pink and will cover your wall. I don't know how disease resistant in your area so maybe someone who grows it will pipe up. Isabella skinner AKA Victorian Memory

Will check it out, thanks!

Straw, I saw on another post that you grow Felicia! I didn't know that or I forgot it. Glad to hear she's fragrant and would love any comments or tips you have for growing her if you have time. No pressure.

Vaporvac: I rooted it from a cutting this past summer. Let's see if that band-size survives being winterized in my garage. I won't bring pots outside until mid-May.

Last year I planted Perle d'Or (gallon-size) into the ground mid-April, and spring frost and dry weather killed it. Roses Unlimited won't send gallon-size to my zone 5a until after May 8, and there's a good reason for that.

In my zone 5a, May 30 is safe from frost, and folks plant tomatoes June 1.

Just browsed Nortland Rosarium website, they are in zone 5b .. and they never sell Felicia nor Perle d'Or .. both of them are NOT hardy for zone 5. That's why I prefer rooting them from cuttings, rather than buying them and losing them through zone 5a winter.

http://northlandrosarium.com/table.php

Northland Rosarium offered Peter Mayle in Sept. & Oct .. now they offer Rouge Royal as own-root instead. Pretty Lady rose and Miranda Lambert are also offered now. I also see Rhapsody in blue, Love Song, and Twilight Zone offered as own-root. So tempting !! I would buy them if they survive more than 5 years in zone 5a.

I'll wait to see if my new approach of digging down to 2.5 feet for drainage & put tons of leaves on top & water in dry spring is successful before buying more roses.

LL, thought you'd be interested in this posts pics of ND grown as a shrub.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-dawn-advice-dsvw-vd~4399130

Thank you! That's just what I was looking for!

VV, how did your wall turn out?

New Dawn is absolutely gorgeous here this year! I think that I would have given up on her without your encouragement.

And when I walk by, I can smell fragrance wafting, couldn't believe it! She's on the fence and on the wall and loaded with those silvery pink blooms.

However, I'm dreading deadheading with those thorns!

LL, I haven't received my plants yet. They're coming in May and I'm so glad I put that down as a delivery date as I've been out of town with my DH in the hospital for nine weeks now. I'm so missing my yard and Spring. I just hope I don't have to put the delivery off any further, but I was planning on putting them in bigger pots anyway.

I THRILLED your ND has come through! You might try loppers for deadheading; I didn that for quite a while and think that would work well for a wall. Dont be shy with pics, btw. I'll look through my notes (that I carry even to the hospital!) to let you know what I eventually decided upon.

I love the scent of ND. It always make me happy in a way I can't describe.It's as if my whole adult like is caught up in that scent since I've had it so long. : )

Sending you a PM along with virtual hugs!

Thanks so much on ND but what in the world are loppers??? Something that's self explanatory I'll bet, LOL!