Thanks Laura! I inspected the tree again and he's sprouting all over. Yay!

I've learned a lot of new information in this thread and I am very thankful for it. Many thanks to Al for the pictures and detailed information, also Silica, Mike, Laura, Jinny, and everyone else for the fascinating debate. Very instructive.

Al, thank you for your thorough posts. I really enjoyed reading them and learned so much more on this topic. I appreciate the open offer of help and will find you and look you up when I need help in the future. :)

I wish Garden Web had an option for stickies.

Jem, your tree looks great and I am so happy he is sprouting for you. I look forward to future updates! Good luck.

Yay Jemma! I am happy to hear that your tree is happy. Feels great when they sprout doesn't it?

Vladimir, I just had a minute to watch that video and almost had cardiac arrest when he took those huge clippers to that tree...I guess I don't feel so bad doing the hack jobs that I sometimes perform on my trees ;-) I do wonder if he continues to bare-root those huge trees he has. I am sitting in my daughter's class now so I could not hear the dialogue - he may have said it.

I have learned much from this thread as I said above. I again would like to thank all who contributed. Al, you have lots of information and it does make sense. All that you say about root health seems correct. I also see that instinctively, it may seem "unnatural", although the mere act of growing a tree in a container is unnatural. Silica may be brusque, and not as verbose, but his knowledge I have also found very helpful on many issues he has helped me with - that also goes for JohnM. For the record, I have bare rooted many of my citrus trees - including my largest - which were incredibly hard to do. I did not prune the roots heavily though. At the time, they did not look too congested. I have not bare-rooted all of my trees, but have removed dirt and loosened the roots. I also have almost all planted in the 5-1-1 (a few in gritty) so theoretically, when I pot-up, the mix should fall from the roots as Mike mentioned. I did find that to be the case recently when I repotted a variegated lemon. The mix just came off and exposed the roots. I did not rinse them out - did not feel the need to, and did not want to unnecessarily shock the tree when it was obvious the roots were healthy.

From here out, I will judge on a tree-by-tree basis. I do think that I would prefer to stay on the side of least interference, not because I am afraid, but because I do not want to shock a fruit-bearing tree. However, if the roots appear congested, then I will bare-root and trim accordingly. I do think that the fact two world-renoun citrus experts do things differently - both with success - is an argument for the fact that at the very least, this issue would merit more study with fruit bearing trees in particular. This however, would require a lot of money and time, so until then, I will perhaps try a middle ground (not bare-rooting) when there is no obvious root congestion, but a more aggressive approach like Al suggests when required. Many of my trees are young, so having this knowledge now will save me much trouble in the future. Thank you.

You're all very welcome ...... and I appreciate the kind words.

When I first started tending trees in containers about 30 years ago, I didn't have a clue as to what was going on, so my trees all died and I failed miserably. That particular dose of frustration might have ended my tree-growing career had I not been so thoroughly infected with the bonsai bug. What went through my mind when I first saw the little trees wasn't anything like, "Gee - I sure would like to learn how to do that". It was, "I HAVE to know how to do that"! So after my initial failure, I put the trees away and picked up the books (no Internet to speak of in the pre-1990 world). After starting with the basics and moving up to increasingly technical texts for about 4 years, I felt as though I might have a better chance at success, and that proved to be true. In '94 I joined Garden Web, mainly to learn new things, but I quickly discovered that much of the soil science that was really what moved me out of the failure column wasn't commonly understood or discussed - so I started talking about the types of soils I was using and about how much easier those soils made maintaining trees and other plants at a high level of vitality. At first, it was awful - especially when talking about growing anything in the gritty mix. Naysayers were 100:1, and I was the 1. Gradually, a few people began to entertain the idea there might be some value in increasing aeration and reducing water retention, and I discovered that nurturing people who nurture plants was a natural extension of my own growing experience, and I've been around ever since, still learning as I go and meeting/helping others to increase the amount of reward for their growing efforts whenever an opportunity presents itself.

I do a lot of presentations and demonstrations for a wide variety of clubs (but especially MG Clubs) that are moored to things garden-related. Currently, what's most popular are bonsai demos or a lecture/demo on maintaining houseplants over the long term. Typically, I'll buy or ask someone to bring a very root-bound ficus, schefflera, or other woody plant with a root system that lends itself to root pruning, and use that in the demonstration. I prefer to have a club member bring a tree because I want the owner to have a clear sense of how much difference eliminating root-bound conditions makes. The focus of the lecture/demo is primarily on soil choice and repotting procedures with a strong emphasis on root pruning. The plants are always bare-rooted and root pruned, unless there is a part of the root mass that has soil so compacted and roots so entangled that it wouldn't be prudent to try to correct ALL the issues in one repotting session, but even those plants that can't have all issues corrected in one session offer a smooth segue into a discussion about balance and why more than one repotting session might be required to get roots to the place where from a given point forward the root work becomes very easy. That's why starting root pruning early on young trees eliminates the shock when you finally get into a root system and are struck with the feeling there is nothing that can be done to fix this! There is, but it might take some perseverance and several sessions, and each consecutive session gets easier. The first is almost always the most difficult.

I think all of you have noticed the "growth spurt" that occurs when you bump a plant to a larger pot. What might surprise you is that what you see isn't a growth spurt at all. A plants ability to increase mass is determined by it's genetic coding and cultural effects. A plant can NEVER grow beyond or exhibit vigor that surpasses its genetic limitations. What we interpret as a growth sport is actually a manifestation of cultural limitations being lifted to varying degrees. When you up a pot size and growth improves, it's not a 'spurt', it's simply the plant growing a little closer to its potential. IOW, the plant would have been growing much better all along if the restrictions had been removed sooner. So, when we see a very significant increase in vitality after a tree is bare-rooted and root pruned, we're seeing how much potential was being robbed by poor cultural conditions, rather than a growth spurt. The significantly improved growth could have/ would have been the norm, had we not settled for for something less by accepting the limitations imposed by root congestion. One thing about plants is, lost potential can never be regained. Once lost, it's lost forever.

You might find this thread about Maintaining Trees in Containers for the Long Term to be of some value. If anyone thinks it would benefit the Citrus Forum in general, I'd be happy to post it here.

Laura, I am confused by some of your comments. In your last post, above Al's, you wrote "For the record I have bare rooted many of my citrus".

If you scroll above to a comment you made on Saturday you stated something entirely opposite. .

Laura LaRosa

last Saturday at 1:40PM

"I have not bare-rooted all of my trees - in fact, few of them have actually been bare rooted. I do try to gently remove as much dirt as possible without causing root damage. "

Can you please help me and others understand the confusion. I am not trying to pick on you, you try to help so many newbies and that is a wonderfu qualityl! I just think you need to clarify your statements so others who follow you can get a better understanding of the steps you take to care for your citrus to get them to look that great.

Thanks.

1. Al, one thing that I think you might of covered and yet I would really appreciate it if you could reiterate again for those that are either scared or hesitant to prune their roots anytime of the year or 'Citrus Trees' . Laura sort of touched on it and I would just like to make it clear since we are talking about fruiting trees here..Thank you and thank you so much for everything..

Laura said....

"To me, it seems too harsh for a citrus tree bearing fruits (as they often are). For example, when I partly bare-rooted Alexander (my big Meyer lemon), he was loaded with fruits. If I had done what Al suggests, I would likely have sacrificed most, if not all those fruits - an entire year would have been lost. Many citrus trees are often either in bloom or ripening fruits. I live up north, so the only time I have available for this is the spring and summer months. Many of my trees have fruits at that time or are blooming. They would not take well to such a harsh procedure. I usually separate the roots somewhat and prune lightly if necessary."

I think that many are under the misconception that if one does a bare root or hard prune, they risk loosing their fruit and blossoms and end up with a tree trying to hard to focus on root growth verses top growth...Could you clarify for all of those here hesitant to loose fruit since Citrus seem to always hold on to fruit all year long. Some even think they will set their trees back. It never seems like a good time to disturb the roots to many here..Could you alleviate some of the worries here...I am thinking that if were any non bearing tree, many would be a bit more relaxed about what is being said here)))

2. Al, If you have seen the original question that Jem posted and what she ended up doing, could you please share with us what YOU would of done at this time or the instructions you would of provided for this time of the year and why?

This has been a very enlightening thread and one I will always hang on to..

I think that thread you speak of "maintaining trees in containers' would be a perfect reference here for anyone who might want to further their quest in providing what is the very best for their roots and trees, even if Citrus..I can't even begin to express how thankful many here are for your time and all the effort and care you put into sharing with us..I know you have a very busy schedule and arevery important part of the 'containers forums', so to come by here and be willing to spend time with us is a gift and priceless.

Jinny, the honest truth is that I don't remember exactly how many. I went through the effort to bare root Alexander, my Persian lime (who I've had even longer), and my guava (who is bigger than all my trees) because they were my first trees and were in potting soil + perlite and I was worried about their root health. Then I know that some that ordered from Harris were bare rooted, but I don't remember which - maybe 10 of them? The many others (I probably have 50 trees now), I have not rinsed the roots (so technically that is not bare rooting), but I have always removed as much dirt as I can without causing much damage. I loosen the roots and then spread them out over the mix. I wish I had kept better track. So I guess I can say that although many have not been "bare rooted", meaning rinsed, I feel I did provide root care to all.

Mike, I will be following your post to see how AL responds to your questions, when he has the time. I am always willing to learn and my brain has plenty of storage room to take it (knowledge) all in.. :D Great post!

While I can only speak for myself and my experiences, I have done some bare rooting to some of my citrus that arrived and were in full bloom, or had fruit at the time, and they showed no ill effects or setbacks that I could see or was aware of. Depending on the vatiety, they continued on at pretty much the same growth rate as others that were bare rooted and did not have fruit or blooms. I lightly root pruned one tree, and that was fine also. Did I get lucky? I don't know... I just know they have done very well since..

Over the years, my husband and I have planted many other kinds of trees and plants (thousands) that arrived bare root, or that we did a complete bare root to, and we lost very few to that. A number of the trees were root pruned a bit, but not as severe as AL posted. They thrived and survived except for the ones the deer and other creatures got ahold of.

I have only been growing citrus just under two years, so I am still pretty new to all of this. :)

Thanks again..

Thank you for the clarification, Laura. I appreciate it! :)

I have about 30 trees and have bare rooted all but two. The vast majority have shown now ill effects and none died. One I obtained recently and will repot in the spring. The other is quite large and will probably require root pruning which I will also do in the spring. Both of these will be bare rooted, if possible.

About 5 trees are in gritty mix, the rest are in 5-1-1 except for two of my largest trees which are in some kind of Miracle Grow soil. These are the ones that I will repot in the spring. One is in a 22" pot, the other in 30" pot.

I have a very small collection of Citrus compared to most of the growers here; but I, too, have bare-rooted all of them and re-potted in 5-1-1 or Gritty Mix, or a hybrid of the two mixes. I've never seen any detriment from the practice, only increased vitality.

Josh

Oh and I forgot Jane, my sick Meyer lemon. She had root rot from the nursery. I bare-rooted her and did significantly trim the roots. She has bounced back beautifully.

Hi, Mike. In all honesty, the reason I stuck around the forum is because I felt growers were getting short-changed when it came to the information they were getting re repotting procedures. Simply announcing that the suggestion regularly repotting your trees (which includes root pruning) should be a part of ongoing maintenance is a fallacy begs qualification and factual support at a minimum. I tried to add that perspective by comparing repotting to changing the oil in our vehicles. A case can be made that either is unnecessary, but it's not a good case, and it completely ignores the several downside factors that accompany choosing not to maintain a root system ...... or motor. It doesn't matter to me what you guys decide to do with your trees, but I think it doesn't serve the forum well when all you have is half the picture to use in making decisions.

Fear of messing with a plants roots is so wide-spread it's difficult to think of it as anything other than normal, so it obviously doesn't take much to reinforce a belief that's already commonly held. Very few are able to embrace the concept of bare-rooting and root pruning w/o support that resonates as valid. I'm certain of the value of bare-rooting when necessary and remediation of all issues in my trees' root mass at repot time because of the thousands of repots I've undertaken w/o complications and the fact that the repotted trees far surpass their counterparts that weren't repotted in terms of development and biomass increase, which is the only true measure of growth - the increase in dry weight of the plant. Bare-rooting and root pruning is just another of the many things I've encouraged and have been widely adopted by growers across many forums. The practice is actually very openly discussed on almost any forum that has anything to do with growing in containers - especially Houseplants and the Container Growing forums.

Pretty basically, a couple of growers here were simply insisting that bare-rooting and full repots weren't necessary, and actively curbing what naturally occurs in root masses w/o our intervention is time and effort wasted. What I know of repotting and the breadth of my experience simply told me this was an absolute error, and it would be a disservice to leave the forum convinced that death was waiting just around the corner if you dare to bare-root your trees at repotting time. That simply isn't true. It's possible that a grower still getting used to very fast draining soils and bare-rooting at the same time CAN get into trouble if they don't take the time to gain command of the basics before they do their repots - especially if the timing is inappropriate, but if a few simple common sense guidelines are followed there should be no issues with full repots. If you're going to bare-root and repot for the first time - plan ahead and take the time to ask for tips. The tips you receive will undoubtedly keep you out of trouble.

You asked what advice I might have given Jem. W/o going back through the thread, and considering she's in zone 5, I'd probably have resorted to the standard line. If you feel you will be unable to maintain the tree's viability until a more appropriate repot time (March), do a full repot now. If you're pretty certain the tree will make it through the winter but are still convinced you want to 'do something', I'd rip the bottom inch or so off of the root mass and scuff up the perimeter of the remaining root mass and temporarily pot up slightly, increasing the soil volume by no more than a cup or so of soil that closely mimics the texture of the existing soil. I'd also have offered tips on how to reduce the amount of excess water the soil can hold via using ballast, wicks, and/or other strategies to reduce excess water retention. Finally, I'd have offered some thoughts about fertilizing and suggested that she repot/root prune somewhere around the Vernal Equinox, mid to late March.

Al

Its a fallacy that root pruning and total soil clearing is ESSENTIAL when repotting. Thousand of trees of all different varieties are transplanted every month throughout this world by reputable skilled nurseries, without total root clearing of the entire medium plus then pruning throughout the root system, as Al maintains and those trees do just fine.

A bit late Al had you of read the postings they already did re-pot it lets just be happy they didn't use an acorn cap to do the deed and didn't wait until March

No one said it was essential. Life is about choices. You can choose practices that ensure your trees will not be limited by root problems or root congestion; or, you can choose practices that ensure they WILL be limited by root problems and root congestion until such time that the grower takes an active hand in eliminating the limitations. You cannot simply make the pronouncement that all will be well if you choose not to play an active roll in managing your plants' root system w/o being unrealistic. We know with 100% certainty that root congestion in containerized trees becomes limiting at approximately the point in time when the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact; and we know the limitations become progressively worse as the congestion increases. We also know that a root-bound root system doesn't fix itself. None of these statements can be denied, so the fallacy you mentioned is actually in thinking that containerized trees will be a-ok if you ignore root maintenance that actually does correct congestion and problem roots. That is not a position one can reason himself into. In fact, a practiced eye can tell at a glance those plants that are being limited by root congestion, even if the soil and root mass is entirely hidden from view, because the physiological effects of root congestion are mapped out in old (leaf) bundle scars on branches.

Also, many growers unwittingly accept the limitations imposed by root congestion with no realization of the amount of potential being lost. Lost potential is a very real issue for containerized plants, even though it's difficult to quantify; that is, until you actually DO relieve the root congestion and witness the immediate improvement in growth and vitality, which is very clear indication of the limitations under which the tree was growing while in its root-bound state.

Having witnessed the increase in growth rate and vitality several thousand times in trees I've bare-rooted and root pruned gives me a very distinct advantage and a much clearer perspective from which to judge results compared to those that hold fast to less invasive practices that offer no basis for comparison.

Al

Sorry Albert, I apologize for my error, I should have been clearer, what I should have written was denuding a tree's root system of all medium, followed by a root by root examination is not even a necessary thing to do. Example: Tintori and the world nursery industry.

Lol Silica - I mean this in a nice way, so don't misinterpret me please. Have you seen the movie Frozen? With two girls, I often have the theme song stuck in my head....it's called "Let it Go". If you don't know it, google it and sing it to yourself and your trees ;-). I resort to it often!

@ Silica - Using a logical string:

A) We know as fact that root congestion is limiting.

B) We know as fact that the degree of congestion is linked directly to the degree of limitation. IOW, the more congested a root mass is, the greater the amount of limitation.

C) We know as fact that root congestion in the root mass does not fix itself and as mentioned in B becomes increasingly limiting with time.

D) We know that potting up is a half-measure that does nothing to relieve the congestion in the main root mass where relief is most needed.

From these simple facts, no matter how you parse it, we can logically draw the conclusion that limitations related to root congestion become increasingly severe until some point in time at which we provide the remedy by physically eliminating the problems and congestion. This would be logical and true even if 99.9% of of all growers who tend citrus trees in pots avoided bare-rooting and root pruning. In fact, citing the world nursery industry, whatever that means, is another logical fallacy you employed. This particular fallacy has several names: Appeal to popularity - Appeal to Common Practice - or Appeal to Tradition. These reasoning errors take the respective forms of:

Popularity -

1) Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X). 2) Therefore X is true.

Common Practice -

1) X is a common action. 2) Therefore X is correct/justifiable/reasonable/......

Tradition -

1) X is old or traditional 2) Therefore X is correct or better.

It's often very difficult to reason people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place; but fortunately I'm not interested in trying to change your mind or even in making up someone else's mind for them. My offerings are an appeal to open minds, and are designed to make the discomfort of decision-making intense enough that it can only be escaped by
thinking. I try to never simply make a proclamation about something w/o sound reasoning to back what I said, which is why most of my posts seem so long. I want to leave people feeling like they actually learned something and thinking that the information is reliable because of how thoroughly it was explained.

This entire thread reminds me of one of my favorite sayings, which is:

The
destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether he
soweth grain or not. ~Robert Ingersoll

Hey, Nomen - the offering you referred to was actually a reply to a question Mike asked about what advice I WOULD have offered had I been here in time to post before Jemma moved ahead with her repot. I never would have seen this thread had someone not contacted me with a request to weigh in on what I thought about the whole bare-rooting and repotting thing.

Al

Would of ,could of, should of. Either way peps will only do what they are going to regardless of whats already been said.

.

Laura, no I have not seen the movie, I don't go to movies. Laura, for your sake I'll drop it. Actually, the only reason I wrote my last post was because I knew it would ignite Albert into writing still yet another one of his VERY LOOOONG post, and it did. Got you Albert. LOL

"Silica, your roots of disrespect go deep and may your trees do just as well" Quoted from my mom Simone.

I'm shocked that anyone would stoop to that level of disrespect by 'liking' what he did. Shame.

Mike, I think you need to google that song as well and not take things quite so seriously. It was a joke. I seriously doubt if even Al is as hot and bothered as you are, but I may be wrong. I don't know him as well as you. He seems like a great guy and obviously likes you enough to come to your defense if you are contradicted. I respect that.

Laura, you don't know Silica the way I do for as long as I have and it's too bad you think I'm that bad. Give it time..Maybe I will change and see what his intentions are just as you have..And I am surprised you would take me up on that...The minute he called him "Albert" he was rude and knew it

Personally I don't care if it bothered Al and what matters is that it bothered others, and not as bad with me since I am used to the treatment he gets helping others might I say always in a politeful and respectful manner..

To me, my friends and my mother, it was rude and that's that. We don't even know Silica's real name..What surprises me is anyone excepts or likes his behavior

Take good care

Mike, I don't think badly at all of you, or Al, or Silica. I do not know either very well. I have not always sided with Silica, in fact, have had debates with him as well. As far as the name, I had no idea that would be insulting...for all I know, they know each other and call each other by their full names. Part of the reason that I sided with Silica (besides that I do see his side) in this discussion is that you guys all treat what Al says as the word of God and Silica (and JohnM) are demonized for daring to contradict what he says. That immediately gets my hackles up. I have not had many dealings with Al, but respect him as an authority, just like Silica and JohnM also seem to know a whole lot about citrus. As a scientist, I would like everyone to support their position with facts. Frankly, I don't think either side has done that. Al has presented more evidence and good logical reasoning for why we should do what he says, but the only way to truly know what is best for a citrus is to take a number of identical plants, perform bare root repots on half, and not on the others - for years. Now I don't think Silica has disputed the importance of pruning roots, his concern lies in the total removal of dirt from the root system. For example, when I repotted my variegated pink lemon recently, I did not technically bare root it because I did not dunk it in water and remove the dirt. However, because it was in the gritty mix, the mix just fell off and exposed the roots. Since I could see their state very well, I did not feel it was necessary to wash off what was left on the roots. I think (Silica correct me if I am wrong) that is what Silica has been trying to say. Al makes a very convincing argument for his side and has provided examples of his experience, which does suggest that his approach works. Silica also has made claims, which I have no reason to doubt even if he has not posted pics. I don't see why he would spend so much time debating this issue if he did not honestly believe what he says. Again, I don't know him at all from a personal perspective, and I guess I could be wrong. Either way, I think we should not be afraid to question the "experts", nor should we be burned at the stake for doing so.

Laura, I agree with you on two points:

1. There is no scientific evidence supporting either side.
2. We should not be afraid to question the"experts".

Thank you for your post.

I don't know... I'm with Mike on this one. I find Silica was being rude and has been trying to bait Al this entire thread... but since Al has never said a negative word that I have read he didn't take the bait so that is to be commended.

Laura I get where you are coming from though, you're just too nice to see the bad in anyone. And Silica has been much nicer to you than to most on the board (that I have seen) so you probably give him more leeway than I would. I still need to see the trees to get on side.... Sorry Silica, Al's photo evidence RULES!!

Agree though that there is no right or wrong and we can all gain from hearing both sides!!

PS where the heck is Pip when we need him??? He's always good for some type of inflammatory comment lol- perhaps the AZ sunshine has been keeping him busy. Just teasing Pip.

I am happy for the information and the way my brain works I can see the benefit of Al's method of maximizing root health and growth potential. And the analogy of changing car oil seems perfect, no you don't need to do it often to get by but imagine the benefit of doing it. And while I get Silica's point about no commercial nursery bothering to do so and the trees being just fine one could argue (and has) that they could be doing even better with more attention to the roots. And nursery practices and home practice can vary widely because the home gardener often has more time and attention to give their smaller quantity of plants then the large scale operations. That being said I don't feel confidant in my ability to correctly identify root issues/prune and would love a video or photo documentation of the identification of problem roots and the pruning process.(like a step by step guide) I am happy to know that even if I don't go to that extent my trees will still have the potential to get by. I see it similar to the 5-1-1/Gritty vs MG potting soil debate. When you successfully grow in MG you see the 5-1-1/Gritty as an unnecessary step but when you go through the trouble of using a 5-1-1/Gritty and see the benefits you can't imagine anyone being OK with less. Healthy debate is good for everyone but its easy to let emotions get the best of us as we are humans after all. I just hope people can stick to the facts/points of debate without resulting to personal attacks or rudeness which has started to creep it's way into the thread. I love all the knowledge and personal experiences I get to read about in this thread and hope that it continues so people can see many options and decide whats right for them.

I honestly don't know how Al could include more science in his posts. He's laid out the scientific rationale, the facts, behind the pruning of plant tissues, roots and otherwise.

Laura, when a member always signs off in a particular way, such as the abbreviated "Al," it is clearly antagonistic to insist on writing out the full form of the name in the address. That said, Al's feathers aren't ruffled. He knows how these online fora work. This discussion has merely revealed the latent rudeness of others.

Must be cabin fever, already.

Josh

Josh, Al has included scientific rationale and facts. He has not included scientific evidence. The rational and facts he mentions provide the basis for his hypothesis, which is that proper root pruning and bare rooting is beneficial to a tree. The evidence would be provided by the results of scientific experiments, such as suggested by Laura. that test this hypothesis. Such evidence, to my knowledge, does not exist.

Mike you have mentioned several times previously that you knew me.. Are you possibly mistaking me for some one else. The reason I ask is because I don't remember your name at all, from anywhere. What ever, I thought the debate was worth while.

Question the "experts"? - Isn't that what we ALL should do??? - The vast majority just fall in line.

Whenever there is a debate on a forum, you can almost count on the person who is unable to support his position(s) wanting to change the subject as soon as possible in order to save face. Being too abrupt at changing the subject is a ploy so obvious that it's usually avoided in favor of more reliable tactics like passive aggressive comments and ad hominem attacks. The hope is that the person being attacked will follow suit and soon the fact that the debate had a clear winner and a clear loser is obscured by all the mudslinging. Personally, I'd much rather see someone spend their energy trying to diminish me or making their little passive aggressive plays than feeding (the collective) 'you' more information they can't support. Fortunately, most growers are more than sharp enough to see whose heart is in the right place and who has command of the topics being discussed ....... which would also mean they have a pretty good idea about who's getting busted for operating at beyond the limits of their knowledge.

Forum debates have the potential to provide a lot of information and settle muddy waters if people play fair and act like adults. I actually enjoy a good debate and seldom have second thoughts about entering into a debate with anyone. The reason for that brings us full circle to something I've already mentioned. If you self-limit your debating expostulations to topics you can address w/o operating at beyond the limits of your knowledge or ability to reason, you'll always fare well. If you find yourself so desperate to change the topic that you surrender to the temptation to go personal, it's a pretty sure bet you've painted yourself into a corner.

I'm no dummy, so I don't miss much when it comes to the psychology of forum discourse. Silica thinks he played me so effectively that I couldn't help but write another long post. In offering, "Actually, the only reason I wrote my last post was because I knew it
would ignite Albert into [sic] writing still yet [sic] another one of his VERY
LOOOONG post [sic], and it did. Got you Albert. LOL", he freely admits to trolling. If he gets off on calling me Albert or commenting on my tendency toward detail, how does that diminish me? He thinks I was somehow upset by the things he said. I wasn't, and there really is no reason I should be. I actually appreciate opportunities Silica and others like him provide that allow me to cover a lot of detail. That's because I genuinely care about helping others get the most from their growing experience. When I 'go long' and take the opportunity to go into detail and explain some of the nuances that Silica et al are completely unaware of or skipped over because they don't favor his position, growers can usually see that 'being right' is only important to me insofar as the effect the information being discussed has on their growing experience. I could care less about what he says/thinks about me, but I do care about the quality of the information you guys employ in your pursuit of greater rewards for your efforts.

Silica

You knew it was me helping hundreds here with the use of vinegar then you came out with this..

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1835800/vinegar?n=34

Here is one to start..You know it's me..Meyermike.........The Vinegar issue that you said was useless that many here use..If it were not for me, half the trees here would not be as green as they are if they believed that vinegar was useless..You complain about showing evidence, you have shown me none yet and yet everyone here who has used it has shown you plenty....Sp please don't point fingers at all.

What about Coconut Chips? You were so adamant about using them and now have changed your tune.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1835383/updated-trees-from-coconut-husk-chips-to-the-511-mix-pictures

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1847383/chc-peat-moss-vs-gritty-mix

The very product you say that you no longer use and have no need for just a few weeks ago, after you used the 5.1.1 and gritty mix you never used. You push MGGS now.. Would you like me to link other threads here?

...How about this one, really saying that the 5.1.1 mix that I encourage everyone to use is not useful and then to leave Vladimirs questions unanswered?

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4281479/how-much-water-is-available-in-a-5-1-1-medium?n=3

How about more debates you tried to start with me or advice I helped others with so that you could come behind me and invalidate everything I said..You know what, it would be a futile waste of my time to even go further and to make you look any worse than what you have already did here...That's not my intent. You asked me if I was mistaken, and this was only to show you that I am not.

You have proven nothing to me and I have yet to see your trees I have been asking for 'years'..It seems that your whole purpose with me has been to discredit or go against everything I say even though I have helped hundreds here, even Laura which uses Foliage Pro and Vinegar in which you have tried in the past to steer many away from. Maybe because you need to feel more important here? Not sure. I can't judge that. But I have stood by here for years despite that, because not only do I care about trees that others grow here, but also their good success..

I don't know what your intent is with others, but it has never been to help me out, or to get me where I am today, and I could care less if you did. I don't even care if you get others to side with you, or if they dislike me because I don't agree with your tactics...That's why I am still around after all these years. The most important thing here to me is that others get the right information they need to be the best at growing Citrus in containers, especially up north, and that includes root pruning and bare rooting, vinegar use, the right bark and top of the line mixes..)

Anyone that has been around these forums long enough knows that after all these years all I have ever wanted to do is help others to help their trees with what I have learned from only the best, and yes after all the less than kind treatment that Silica has sent my way.

Vlad - I don't want you to take this the wrong way, because I'm not being snarky - just realistic. I'm not in the business of twisting anyone's arm to get them to believe those things I say. I'm also not willing to go so far as to commit even more time than I already spend here to formulate experiments designed to produce evidence in support of bare-rooting and root pruning that wouldn't be accepted by naysayers anyway. I've bare-rooted and pruned the roots of well over 5,000 trees covering maybe 200 species and 100 genera. In every one of those trees, growth rate and vitality levels increased dramatically after a short recovery period from the repotting work. I've posted hundreds of pictures of perfectly healthy plants of all stripes that have been bare-rooted/root-pruned, including trees, shrubs, more herbaceous perennials, succulents, ........ Since I jealously guard my credibility, doing/saying anything designed to fool you regarding bare-rooting and/or root-pruning would represent a decided disadvantage I want nothing to do with. So, you either believe me or you don't. I have very little interest in what you ultimately decide to believe, only that you have information the reliability of which allows you to make good decisions. That bare-rooting and root-pruning should be avoided is NOT reliable information. In fact, it's information born of the repetition of myth and what seems to be a fear of working on roots that can only be sustained by the grower remaining perpetually unfamiliar with the process.

In keeping with the quote I provided upthread (The
destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether he
soweth grain or not. ~Robert Ingersoll) Linda Chalker-Scott, PhD, has carved out a substantial reputation resultant of her dedication to dispelling horticultural myths. If you follow the link, you can read what she says about fragile roots, bare-rooting, and repotting.

Al

Al, I have no doubt as to your success rate, motivations, credibility, or knowledge. All of the information you have provided would serve as a great hypothesis and introduction for a scientific publication. However, in order to prove the method is better than any other, you need a control. Without that, although you can show the success of one method with proof of flourishing plants, you can't draw the conclusion that an identical plant wound not have grown equally well with a different treatment. I don't doubt the validity of what you are saying, I'm just saying it is equivalent to doing a drug trial without a placebo/control. That said, nobody would expect that of you. I'm surprised that someone has not undertaken such a study. It would be very worthwhile.

Question the "experts"? - Isn't that what we ALL should do??? - The vast majority just fall in line. @ Silica the problem is ...

Mike isn't questioning he's simply explaining his experiences and how he cares for his citrus while suggesting a realistic understandable manner on how to care for citrus so others can keep them in good health.

Seeming as you don't know him in one line then in another line you do know him makes you ????? .

Make no mistakes you do know him VIA the forum I've read several threads that include you countering Mike criticizing his cultivating efforts. If you choose to act like an expert then be prepared to be treated as one.

IMO Your petty squabbles are oddly annoying as you seem to suggest while seeking support from others with hopes to encourage your ideals include re-potting and attempt to grow a resting citrus in the worse climatic conditions at the worse time of the year are something that any person with any formal plant growing knowledge should rightfully protest. Your suggestion was ( to the OP) that they should re-pot ASAP ( which has been done). All of your other suggested ideas are : An attempt to embarrass others who do have very good cultivating knowledge and skills are OUT OF LINE.

From me. ( While in a form of agreement with you.) The internet is a peculiar/odd way to get to know someone. I think you need to develop better internet people skills try finding a better way to say what you want to say with manners VS being so gosh darn harsh to everything someone else is trying to say. Trust me it's just a waste of your time and effort even Al knew I was wasting my time mentioning an acorn cap but he also knows I wont waste his efforts.

Like you I don't have to like and agree with everyone on the forum either even though they will still get my respect. Who knows I may one day get to visit and talk to that person(s) face to face and we 'd probably hit it off.

@ Mike one word bothered me today and this might be difficult to understand that are words from a wiser and could also be a caution. You can only see faults that are inside of you if you see that same fault in someone else. This is easier to understand. Continue to be supportive and caring enough to help others as your suggestions and citrus information has always been useful for some ( not all) regardless of the counter comments that sometimes may read as negative you know that your aren't.

Al, of course I do not expect you or
anyone, to expend the energy or expense of carrying out the type of scientific
experiment described. I simply meant that such experiments have not been done.
That being the case, one has to take the available information , use some logic
and decide which course to take. Which I have by the way: I root prune and bare
root.

Vlad

In closing, I want to thank everyone once more for the advice and information provided in the thread.

The Ponderosa is doing very well and I have no doubt I made the right decision for my tree by repotting and lightly fertilizing. It's starting to sprout all over!

There's even some green sprouting on the sad naked trunk!

I'll update in a month or so in a new thread.

Have a great day, everybody!

Laura - I really can draw that conclusion. In
science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent', which means that any reasonable person that has repotted (including bare-tooting/root-pruning) 5,000 trees with the same results would consider it a virtual certainty that the results of tree 5,001 will be no different. Few would disagree if I said the sun will rise on the morrow, even though there is a remote possibility that it won't. I'm just as certain that bare-rooting and repotting is a positive thing that is necessary if your tree is to have at least the opportunity to realize as much of it's genetic potential as possible, as I am about the sun rising tomorrow ........ and I've never been the type of person wont to make a leap of faith for no good reason. Also, those folks who have lent their voice in support of bare-rooting and root-pruning aren't acknowledging the value of the process because they find it counterproductive.

1) Tree A exhibits lethargic growth

2) Tree A also grows with reduced vitality

3) Tree A exhibits symptoms of root congestion, such as loss of foliage proximal to apices and reduced distance between bundle scars (reduced branch extension)

4) Tree A is repotted, which includes bare-rooting and root-pruning

5) All noted symptoms are remedied

6) Repeat 5,000 times with same effect on the plant

Conclusion: Bare-rooting and root pruning acts to eliminate all noted symptoms related to root congestion. If you disagree, holler. ;-)

You might now have the question: Does a half-measure snip snip snip of roots at only the perimeter of the root mass result in the entire elimination of issues related to root congestion as does the full repot? The answer is resoundingly, NO. It does not, for the simple reason that the congestion in the original root mass that keeps getting larger and larger gets worse and worse. To use another vehicle analogy, thinking that a half-measure up-potting will be as effective as a full repot (with bare-rooting and root pruning) is like thinking you only need to check the air pressure of one tire on each side of your vehicle to ensure levels are where they should be.

Every tree is a control. It's root-bound and growing poorly - it's fully repotted and it's growing well. What more evidence is needed? If you like, start 2 cuttings from the same parent material. Repot one religiously every 2 years whether it needs it or not, and snip around the perimeter of the roots of the other tree and pot that one up. At the end of 10 years, the tree with the well-managed root system will be larger and much more vigorous, with a root system 1/4 the size (or less) of the tree you potted up regularly.

We have to allow for the fact that some may simply choose not to believe what I offer about full repots as opposed to potting up. I say that the onus of proof rests on their shoulders. The best reasons to avoid repotting put forth on this thread consist of one person imagining what someone else might think about the process, and repeating over and over that it is harmful or completely unnecessary. In fact, many of the statements made in this thread are simply wrong.

"The largest cause of failed transplants is human caused damage to the
root system." Error - the most common reason for failure is allowing the tree to decline to a vitality level so low that the tree is unable to tolerate the stress of repotting "The second largest cause of problems during transplanting,
is the failure to transplant the tree on time." Error - not keeping roots appropriately moist during the repot and failure during a brief post repot period to ensure that soil in which the roots are situated remains moist at all times. This is a more common problem when the grower is repotting and changing to a considerably less water-retentive medium at the same time. "The need to bare root a
tree's root system at transplant is a fallacy." Taken on it's face, this is true, but invokes the idea that it is unnecessary in the same vein that it's unnecessary to change the oil in your vehicles. It's a given that root congestion is limiting and progresses to become more limiting with time, so it's completely (as in 100%) illogical to suggest that avoiding correction of this malady is somehow the better choice for the plant. "Root are anaerobic tissue." [sic] What? "Its not even a natural thing to do. I just don't see the value in it." "Nobody does it. This discussion isn't going to go anywhere" "...... a useless waste of time and energy." "....... an exercise in futility. It is just plain not needed." Statements as emphatic as these simply invite disagreement. In
almost all cases, I tend to let the things I say stand on their own
merit, but occasionally, pointing out some significant errors in other's
statements can highlight the variance in our understanding of plant physiology.

Does anyone actually disagree with the idea that you can expect limitations due to root congestion if that congestion isn't corrected; and, that root congestion doesn't fix itself; and, that limitations become increasingly worse until/unless that congestion is eliminated?

I
often explain the effects of repotting vs potting up like this:

Let's
rate growth/vitality potential on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the
best. We're going to say that trees in containers can only achieve a
9. Let's also imagine that for every year a tree goes w/o repotting
or potting up, its measure of growth/vitality slips by 1 number, That
is to say, you pot a tree and the first year it grows at a level of
9, the next year, an 8, the next year a 7. Let's also imagine we're
going to go 3 years between repotting or potting up.

Here's
what happens to the tree you repot/root prune:

year
1: 9

year
2: 8

year
3: 7

repot

year
1: 9

year
2: 8

year
3: 7

repot

year
1: 9

year
2: 8

year
3: 7

You
can see that a full repotting and root pruning returns the plant to
its full potential within the limits of other cultural influences for
as long as you care to repot/root prune.

Looking
now at how woody plants respond to only potting up:

year
1: 9

year
2: 8

year
3: 7

pot
up

year
1: 8

year
2: 7

year
3: 6

pot
up

year
1: 7

year
2: 6

year
3: 5

pot
up

year
1: 6

year
2: 5

year
3: 4

pot
up

year
1: 5

year
2: 4

year
3: 3

pot
up

year
1: 4

year
2: 3

year
3: 2

pot
up

year
1: 3

year
2: 2

year
3: 1

This
is a fairly accurate illustration of the influence tight roots have
on a woody plant's growth/vitality. You might think of it for a
moment in the context of the longevity of bonsai trees vs the life
expectancy of most trees grown as houseplants, the difference between
4 years and 400 years lying primarily in how the roots are treated.

Al

Well this has certainly been an action packed welcome to the board hasn't it jemmalix! The tree is looking good!

"In closing"... you're funny too lol.

Hi Al! Thanks for the advice. I'll pay close attention to the little buds and intervene if necessary. I admit I wouldn't have thought of that, but it makes sense. =)

Al, I may not have transplanted 5000 trees, but I have published a scientific, peer reviewed publication. I believe what you say will happen is likely true, BUT unless you have it documented with data from both your control and experimental tree/s throughout the ten years that this process would take, your claims would not be "scientifically" proven. I put scientifically in quotes because I am adhering to the strictest form of a study design. Because you have treated all of your trees the same way (bare root pruning) you have neglected to have a control. If you attempted to publish results such as those in a peer-reviewed, scientific journal, they would reject your conclusions on that basis. I agree that the scenario you have depicted is probably correct, but you would never be able to perform any statistical analyses without a control. We are talking in circles and I think all the salient points have been made. It has been a great discussion and I have learned much from it, but I'm signing off after this. Thank you.

Edit: There is a type of analysis/study design called longitudinal. Without a control, there is a way to extract a statistical conclusion because of the sheer number of trees and their deviation from their initial state. Anyways, as I've said, thank you. I've learned a lot. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_study

This has been a VERY helpful thread to many that are not even posting here, let me tell you..

Al took the time to dispel myths and fallacies and helped me to understand how important root pruning and bare rooting is in which is something I try and regularly do to my trees as I re pot in order to keep them growing in smaller pots than I would like and to keep them a good size. I find that when I do they grow more robustly than when I do not..

Thanks Al for your time and all that you could do to give us the resources to see just how important it is to get the best out of growing our trees in containers!

Mike

Quoted : Because you have treated all of your trees the same way (bare root pruning) you have neglected to have a control.

Isn't' neglect a practice of not doing anything while expecting results ? Then neglect would also be a complete lack of control.

If you bare root/ root prune you are doing something to have some form of control

Science is simple each action causes an equal and opposite reaction As Al shows pics with results of what he is trying to explain and control shows ( just a weeeee bit) more than neglect

Sorry I was so late to post Al but what else could be added? And 'yes' sadly I know a guy who refuses to touch the roots in citrus trees over 20yrs old in the same pots. Wow...what a read. (hey there Laura and Josh and anyone else I missed) Listen folks - Al's information is accurate. I totally agree. What we're doing is what I call 'big bonsai'. If you want these trees to survive a long time in a container ...well let's say we want better than to just survive. Root management is a must! I have a similar background as Al and worked in a commercial nursery for a couple summers and kept bonsai trees way back in the early 90's as well.....without the lengthy post his point's are totally sound. I too learned long ago the significance of a good mass of feeder roots close to the base of the tree. I don't strip the root mass totally clean every time I prune the roots but the feeder roots just won't lay out horizontally or function normally if the roots look like cooked spaghetti noodles. (far as dissimilar mediums that's something I usually avoid too if I have the time or I do it the following season) Citrus trees develop lots of exploratory roots that are useless in a container that eventually just clog the drain holes or encircle the feeder roots and choke the more useful feeder roots. In all honesty most commercial growers just take a box knife and slice straight down to sever the entangled roots a few cuts and slam the tree back into the same pot. They spend about 3 seconds on each tree or shrub. But it's about time management vs another 3 acres of 1 gallon pots. But far as 'must prune roots' maybe it isn't a big issue for 4-5 yrs but after a tree gains size it's really a 'must' if you want it to do well and stay healthy. Another point, you guys are comparing a very wide range of growing zones and there are huge differences to consider. The tree's kept nearer the equator..well that medium wouldn't work one year where I live. It's not important what he 'doesn't do' because he is just like most of us and could only 'do better' with some extra effort and time. As a former business owner I also understand he is paying employees and has a cost vs bottom line in his mind all the time so it's not completely accurate to assume how he barely trimmed the edges of the root mass as his best efforts. This is what a 7ft tall lime tree's base looks like in ONE GROWING SEASON...(again this will look different in different growing zones but how can a tree have 'free draining' soil when the base of the container has become a 2" layer of roots as hard as a layer of plywood?) It is also practically an invitation for root rot ..which all citrus are very susceptible too. Hope this is helpful to some of you. :)

Thanks Joe for bumping this. I missed this entire thread when it was active. The issues talked about in this thread pop up every now and then. Interesting thing is that the fear of bare rooting is very common and I presume hard to overcome. When I started man years back internet barely existed. So I attended classes with a local Bonsai guru. I brought a pomegranate plant to a class on repotting. And he made me bare root it and taught me how to properly repot it. I was pretty apprehensive. A few months later I was stunned with its phenomenal growth. I have not looked back ever since.

I spent a lot of time reading and collecting container practices (My favourite was/is Brent Walston at evergreengardenworks.com) And years later I discovered Al's excellent explanations and as a practising scientist/engineer I will say that it is as scientific as you can get.

And citrus plants can be subjected to similar cultural treatment as bonsai. Not every variety is suitable for a bonsai "look". For inspiration, here is a pic (not mine) of I think is calamondin orange. Illustrates how much one can push the limits of a plants ability to support itself in such a tiny pot.

Thanks, Joe & ToC, for the kind words. A couple of things that never fail to surprise me at least a little are how many growers will go to great lengths to avoid damaging a single root of plants, the roots of which haven't been touched or mechanically manipulated since the day the organism could be recognized as a viable plant; and, in some growers there exists a resistance to change or trying something different that would serve as one of the best proofs available that, for better or worse, we really do tend to be creatures of habit.

As my proficiency at bonsai increased, it was easy to see how many of the techniques and bits of knowledge that were limited primarily to the bonsai community could have significant value to growers engaged in various forms of growing. I use bonsai practices, techniques, and things I've learned along the way as part of every single plant I grow. That isn't to say that every plant is or is treated as a bonsai; rather, that some aspect of what I've learned through my pursuit of proficiency at bonsai helps to make every plant I grow much better than if I was unaware of my options and enhanced techniques.

I said all that so I could say, where container culture is the topic and someone poohpoohs advice based because he believes it can only apply to bonsai practices or techniques, that person not only commits a logical error, the person also does a disservice to other growers more broad-minded that might have adopted a beneficial practice had it not been poohpoohed. A long distance runner or bicycle racer can benefit from the field of aerodynamics, a bull fighter can borrow use dance steps to ply his deadly trade, a grocer can benefit from subliminal suggestion ...... So, it shouldn't be hard to believe that techniques developed over centuries that allow trees of MANY genera to remain viable and healthy in small pots for periods measured in decades or centuries, could be applied to trees of many genera that are grown in slightly larger pots with similar results. To think otherwise is simply not logical. If someone suggests that because a practice has its roots in the art/science of bonsai it can't be applied to the containerized trees of citrus growers, the suggestion won't be born of a superior knowledge of how to maintain healthy citrus trees, it will come from an ignorance of the art/science in which the practice is rooted and its practical applications.

Al

It's true, it really is. Trees in the ground need their tap root and their adventitious roots but those only hamper the tree bound in a container. It makes little difference whether they're kept in a 5 gallon paint bucket or a 1" tall antique bonsai pot! I have tried to encourage pure feeder root structures and the difference never fails to amaze me how much it helps them. In both plants and trees the same processes still apply. The structures of roots is an amazing process of nature and we are the ones altering natures normal processes so certain things need to be adjusted to fit our needs. Roots also have a correct orientation. If the larger lateral root structures continue to grow out to the edge of any container how could the ends of those function correctly? (The ends of the lateral roots are where the fine feeder roots develop but they don't know when to stop growing so they are quickly pushed into the wrong orientation and the feeder roots will die on that root) It's far better to encourage the feeder roots to develop right under the trunk flair where their functions are so much better and easier for the tree's health rather then them twisting and turning into a giant mess. The feeder roots location often separates 'pre bonsai' and true bonsai trees because it requires the extra work and time. Again.. any fruit tree in a container is just a big bonsai and we can all learn from known bonsai practices.