Please help me understand about rose gall :disinfecting soil???????

7 years ago

This is going to be long, so please be patient. I've had a few cases of gall on some of my roses, and need to understand more about just what it is and how to act when it turns up. In all 4 cases, the rose in question was not enjoying proper conditions or soil,so it's a very different thing from what Patty W. is talking about.

First case: Brise Parfum; planted where no rose could possible be happy (stupid me). Threw it out.

Second: Mme Berkeley. This rose had been moved twice,and I'd re- planted it badly:on a slpoe, shallow soil,badly prepared. Since it was dwindling over an arc of say, 2-3 years, I dug it up once again, thinking to ditch it, but found a gall at the base of one branch. I cut the whole thing off at crown level and re-planted it , hopefully doing a decent job this time. This was last fall; it looks pretty good now: some burnt leaves over summer, and no flowers, but now that it's cool and rainy it seems to be growing. So here's QUESTION 1 : can I plant something else near to the former Mme Berkeley spot? I was thinking a Cercis, not a rose...should I disinfect the soil somehow before planting?

The third case was on an Excellenz Von Schubert. The plant was just sitting there,few leaves, looking bad. I found a gall , again at the base of a branch, and removed it at the crown,but didn't dig up the entire plant. QUESTION 2 : should I have done so? the remainder of the plant is still just sitting there; only one branch has leaves on it,no signs of growth...so what to do? dig around the base to look for other galls? problem with that is: if the rose does NOT have other galls, mightn't I risk infecting it by digging?or should I try cutting it back and fertilizing? Since there was one gall on it, should I just consider the soil to be infected and therefore not plant anything new there?What would you do in a case like that? This rose, too, has been there for a while, planted before I knew how to do soil preparation,so I dare say that if I were to dig it up, I'd find that the poor thing has been struggling along in pretty lifeless soil,but I'm also afraid to spread around gall bacteria if I DO dig it up...

Fourth case: Mrs Reynolds Hole. This one had been there say 5-6 years; maybe more. last year it didn't bloom much at all,and I realized that it was being swamped by an Austin right next to it. It was also planted WAY too deeply; I'd put in the Austin only about 3 years ago,and in the mean time had been adding soil and organic matter to the area,so Mrs. RH wound up having it's whole base buried way too deeply, and was clearly being dominated by the younger plant,( which had also been planted more properly by the gardener, lol, and therefore grows better. ExVS is in a similar situation,btw) I dug up Mrs. RH,and found that it had morphed into three plants: one was dead, with a big fat gall at the base; I broke that off entirely,leaving me with a large plant,with nice top growth but a sad root system consisting mainly of old anchor roots that clearly had never been able to grow down deep and straight,and some more vital-looking "own" roots. (it's a miracle that this plant had been able to do as well as it did over the years!) I trimmed off dead wood,and wiped all wounds with bleach, and then sealed them with wax,and then re-planted it in a new and hopefully better spot.The third little plant had two small galls hanging onto fine hairy feeder roots. I pulled these off and potted up the plant. But since I didn't realize that there was gall present , I just dug the plant up in my normal way, scattering the soil about amongst the other roses! So now what do I do? Also, I don't plan to plant anything in the exact spot where Mrs. RH was, but I would like to plant something next to this spot, higher up on the slope.

Sorry this is so long...basically it seems I'm asking about what to about soil in the case of gall...

Comments (4)

barbarag_happy
7 years ago
I inherited an antique rose garden with gall problems. Their records showed all the roses were purchased from the same source. They were not thriving; in fact many had reverted to their rootstocks. Almost all were once bloomers or rugosas, not suited to our hot humid coastal 8A climate. I proposed replanting the entire garden with teas, chinas, and polyanthas.

We got a grant to replace all the roses. Once we started removals we discovered several galls; in many cases the gall almost completely covered the bud union. No WONDER they reverted!

Having a very limited budget, we chose to remove the soil in which the roses were growing; about 2 foot by 2 foot. We used soil from elsewhere on the 5 acre grounds plus compost and other amendments, and replanted with own-root roses.

Seven years later we have had no recurrence of the gall.

I've only found gall once in my garden at home and followed the same procedure with good results. Lucky it wasn't multiple roses affected!
User thanked barbarag_happy
barbarag_happy
7 years ago
I've heard that the pathogen (if that's the right term) that causes gall is always present in the soil. Typically a rose becomes infected by a wound which allows it to enter the tissue. I think performing any "surgery" on an infected plant is unwise.

We weed under the roses with our fingers, not a tool which could scratch the base of the rose. We're also very careful when removing wood from the base not to scratch nearby healthy canes. Better to leave a few inches and avoid injury.

We've continued to feed the roses organically with dry mixes like Mills Magic and Tones, always careful to scratch it into the soil near the edge of the canopy under the drip line. New volunteers often think the fertilizer should go right at the base of the plant so we have to make sure everybody is educated about how to apply the dry stuff.

I don't think the grower of the original roses was in any way to blame; the roses were not thriving to begin with partly due to being so ill-suited to our climate.

I've never seen any research indicating that grafted roses are more vulnerable than own-roots to crown gall. I'm curious about that..
User thanked barbarag_happy
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Supposed to have become a problem in nursery production areas of the Willamette Valley at one time. Don't know how it was (or is) being dealt with. There are some huge operations down there. Around here (Seattle area) I have seen crown galls on roses, wintercreeper, forsythia and aspen. It seems to be associated with claylike soils. My neighbor to the south "scored" a free, specimen-sized 'Klehm's Improved Bechtel' crabapple a few years ago which now stands in the midst of her hobby garden out in front - probably not more than 30 ft. from our property. Soon after it appeared I examined it and discovered it was sporting a crown gall about the size of a brain or basketball. I pointed the infestation out and suggested she not plant near the tree, clean her footwear and tools, look on the internet to see about painting the galls with something - and also that she pull the tree up and burn it. I saw no signs of sanitation measures being taken at the time and since then various other plants have been inserted right in around the tree.
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Do you think that there are any particular ingredients that the tomatoes would leach from the potting soil that I could add before I plant the roses next week? I will be putting in Mills Magic and will mix compost with the soil, but do you happen to know if tomatoes take out other nutrients? ***** Now you've got me confused a bit. LOL In your first post you said you'd been growing your tomatoes in pots and now wanted to plant roses in those same pots. I would assume, as I said above, that in those pots you had artificial mix and composted manure, probably, hopefully, both purchased. But now you're talking about tomato dirt. Do you mean that you just had real dirt, whatever that might be, in those pots instead of purchased artificial mix and composted manure? If using artificial mix and comosted manure in the pots anything grown in them will take up whatever nutrients are there and I assume you also fertilized your tomatoes as well, since the artificial mix is not a source of nutrients. I don't know what Mill's Magic is in terms of specific content. When I grow my roses they get fed nicely throughout the major part of the season but not in the Fall since I don't want new growth at that time. Wouldn't you also be feeding your new roses as well, like even maybe soaking them if they come bare root, in a solution that contains some NPK, either blue stuff such as MG or Peters, or if organic some liquid fish or seaweed? I always do that presoaking whenever new bareroot roses came. So right now I don't see the problem as regards having enough nutrients in those pots since you'll be adding it to those new roses once they've established themselves. If I'm missing something here, please share that with me/us. Carolyn
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I've found galls twice before: once,last fall, on Mme. Berkeley;I'd dug it out to move it and there was a gall at the base, but as in this case of ExVS,it was only one area of a large,mature root mass,so I cut it out and re-planted the Madame in a different spot; so far it looks ok; only had one flower, but it was just moved. Brise Parfum was a different story: the plant clearly wasn't growing at all,just dying off,and when I dug it up, it looked sort of like Sutekesh's picture,in the sense that the whole base was galled. That got thrown away in the trash. In both cases, the plants didn't have proper soil at all. What makes me perplexed about this case of ExVS is that I wasn't planning on moving it,so I can't really see what's going on below the soil surface. So I guess what I'm asking is really : will it be safe for the surrounding roses if I just leave this ExVS where it is and see how it goes, or should I dig it out? Seems a bit paranoid to dig it out, I guess...
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Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
7 years ago
Perhaps incorrect but here is another. Gall can also enter thru the roots. Even if you never once dug within a roses root zone there will always be the underground insects ie. grubs wireworms among others that feed on roots. Most of us have nerver been so lucky to have placed our roses in the correct spot every time we plant.

Sorry bart as that had nothing to do with your question. If we were able to have access to Galtrol we would be able to treat our plants before planting and when moving. Gall is a garden nightmare in a way. I'm not too bright when it comes to things like this but it seems as if the higher prices rise the less people purchase. Drop the prices to something doable and few in the nursery business would wish to deal with gall problems. Just a dumb thought.

I did a bit of an experiment here in an area of my garden known to have had gall issues. Many years ago I removed all roses from this spot as several roses had become galled. For years only grew other plants here and they did well. The ground there had been dramatically improved. This is the sunniest spot in my yard and I needed it for roses. Three years ago I took the plunge and planted 7 Flower Carpets to see what would happen. I was not careful with the roses. they all received wounds right below the surface. I dug those out this year. Removed all the soil and carefully examined them. No gall was present. I'm now replanting this area in the coming spring. What did my little experiment tell me? Nothing really but I'm planting there now and hoping for the best.
User thanked Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
7 years ago
The bacteria that causes gall is supposedly all over N. America, so it is hard to totally avoid. Whether or not it exists other places, I have no idea.

My volunteer garden also had serious problems with crown gall in a few beds. When it was time to replace those beds, I ordered some Galltrol and about 100 bareroot roses. The roses were dipped in the Galltrol according to directions, planted, and we haven't had any gall problems since. That was probably 20 years ago. I've been asked about the Galltrol several times since, as one of the few people here who has actually used it. A lot of people seem to think it is a soil drench. Maybe it can be used that way, but I've only heard of it as a root dip. So the roses have to either be new bareroots, or barerooted specifically for the treatment. Also, most of the cost involved is not the stuff itself, but the transportation costs of having it overnighted from California in cold storage. It is living bacteria, and has to be cared for in a specific way or they die and don't work. I seem to remember the instructions saying they could be kept for several days in a normal refrigerator, but the transportation had to be handled very carefully.
User thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)

Please help me understand about rose gall :disinfecting soil???????

Comments (4)

barbarag_happy

barbarag_happy

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Patty W. zone 5a Illinois

mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)

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