Roxette

Not perlite for top dressing...Grit.

For ppl concerned about perlite floating to the top, and also blown away by wind since it is too light, grit will help to keep it down. Perhaps you can read previous posts again, as some of the info is getting mixed-up.

Advice to leave plant to dry is mostly for cuttings that do not have roots, but there is a fresh cut that could be easily infected. So it is recommended to let it callus. That could be just and hour or could be few days - depends on thickness of the stem.

If you are repotting and plant has healthy roots, it would be good idea to let it air-dry just a bit if it was too wet - either from being in wet soil, and/or having to wash off any and all old soil; or if some of the roots had to be cut off because they were damaged. This doesn't have to be long either, and many don't do it. Otherwise you can pot it up right away. New mix could be moist ad then I would not water immediately. It is also good idea not to water immediately if there were many roots cut off. But if potting plant with the roots, water after a day or so.

I worded that wrong, I know what you mean.

There will be roots and I will give them a few days to dry then since part of the prognosis here is that the roots may be water logged or sick from the 'wet' soil mixture.

I went through and did some preliminary sifting of the perlite and it was barely holding itself together. One little bit of pressure and it went to nothing but dust. I thought it would have more structural integrity. Is it possible it's defective in some way?

First, pictures of the roots (camera is dying, should be enough detail though)...

I was careful with the cleaning, tried to preserve what I could - some things simply fell away naturally. I gently removed any dried, rotted, soggy pieces. Went back a day later after it dried a bit and removed some more. I got all that I could see.

Some dirt remained, I had to concede after a while. They dried for five days and then a brief burst in the sunlight one afternoon.

I did the mix this morning, 1:1:1 roughly speaking. I went with a minimum 3mm (though I think some slightly smaller ones snuck in now and again).

I am going to water in a day or two as Rina recommended as there are some roots, and they had a chance to dry.

Question : Even though it's winter and the plant should be dormant, will it perk up a bit because of the change in mix - enough so that I need to water more than I would normally in winter?

Aloes are winter active as far as I know. Not sure on how different growth is between summer and winter because they grow year round for me.

That is a really small root system for such a large plant. My little 4" Aloes have three times that much. It was definitely a soil/wayering issue.

I'm sure Rina will give you more advice, but my feeling is that it won't perk up for some time yet. It'll have to grow new roots first. The roots you've salvaged can't take-up water. They need root hairs to do that, and that's not going to happen on calloused roots. Those calloused roots will sprout more roots though, and those will have root hairs so they'll be able to take up water. The process of growing enough new roots to feed a plant of that size is going to take time, and some leaf tissue might never fill out again. I think new top growth will be your first sign that new roots are functioning, and that might be next spring.

Your watering schedule in gritty mix won't be like your previous habit. You can't compare them. I don't know what your mix is, but if it's loose and large enough, in a heated home in winter it'll probably be weekly or biweekly, or if the mix holds a lot of water, maybe every 3 weeks once it's established. Ceramic pots dry faster. You'll water more often in summer, but there are so many variables that there really isn't any way for someone to know what your particular mix and conditions require. You'll need to find a way to test the mix for water between particles. A meat skewer works fairly well. If it comes out visibly wet, no need to water. If it comes out cool or damp but not wet, water. If it comes out totally dry, water it and test it sooner next time because you don't want a totally dry mix. It seems overwhelming, but with a good gritty mix, you can't really overwater because it allows gas exchange. That's really the whole point of gritty mix, so don't sweat it.

Ya Kwie, the root system was larger a few years ago when it was repotted, probably twice as large if not three times.

I am hoping that the leaf tissue will repair itself on the bottom 'half' - if it can just hold on until a root system starts to flourish.

The mix is 1:1:1 DE(cat litter), perlite and chick flint grit about 3-5mm in size on average in a clay pot.

A better question regarding watering would have been whether water dripping out the bottom is indication it's been watered enough.

Don't use the drain hole to estimate whether you've watered it enough because if you pour a little water straight in the top, it's going to take just seconds to come out the hole. Instead, pour an even stream of water over the entire surface of the pot. Water will go straight through, vertically, without spreading through the mix the way it does in soil, so you have to water the entire surface to get everything below it wet. Water will exit the pot before you make it halfway across the pot with the watering can. With time, you'll get accustomed to the speed at which it drains and you'll use that to guide your hand as you water, but until you get the feel for that, make sure you water thoroughly.

I presume you and Rina found something for your plant's calcium and magnesium, and you know you have to fettilize with pretty much every watering in this mix?

Not that I recommend it, but I have posted very often about my lack of fertilizing. If any, it is very sporadic.

I do not have A. vera, but have few other aloes and they grow very well. Soap aloe too well :), it pups constantly (I believe they are known to do that). There are 4 pups separated over year ago that are already pupping, and few more again with mother plant - if it was ever fertilized, it may be couple times in summer (when watering vegetable garden with a hose). Outside, they get water when/if raining, I use hose to water succulents only if extensive period without rain:

Rina, how long have you been growing in inorganic mixes without fertilizing? Is that just your Aloes, or do you treat all your plants that way?

What is the grey Aloe in your second photo? I want one! I like the 'snowflake' or 'blizzard' or whatever it is too. Nice.

It is about 4 years now, since I first read about gritty mix on Garden Web. I have all succulents in same mix and they get same treatment. I should fertilize - but, while outdoors I hardly ever have to water them. Can't add fertilizer to rain, lol. So they get watered by me only if we have longer period without rain. I think I watered them 3 or 4 times this summer - but I didn't keep the record. That doesn't mean I recommend I to others, just what happens around here.

I should delete 2nd photo since it is not aloe but Agave ferdinandi-regis and I didn't pay enough attention when clicking on insert...I am sorry about confusing info - at least I added that it is agave.

Hi both, no there's no soil or fertilizer and based on what I read, suggested by some, it could be avoided. However if I did want to drop some in to kick start it, what would be the beginner's choice?

As for watering, I had planned on pouring it around the entire pot. I presume even with a little water over what would be the root area, they will get wet - but how wet is enough? I guess I was looking for some sort of metric. And they won't be outside unless a sunny dry day ; I never let aloe era get rained on(or worse, nasty winds might shred them up around here).

Roxette - You could try Foliage Pro 9-3-6 or Miracle Gro 12-4-8 liquid. Follow the instructions on the bottles for potted plants.

Note that fertilizer does not 'kick start' plants to get the growing better or healthier roots. Only if there is a lack of nutrients does it help. Usually if a plant isn't healthy, fertilizer does not fix the problem - typically it makes it worse.

Most important are a correct sized pot, good soil mix, and then light. After that fertilizer. =)

Any damaged leaves will stay that way unfortunately. But new leaves growing in should be okay.

I had wondered if fertilizing might make things worse since the plant seems sick (based on lack of root system, two plants in one and the lower leaves losing tissue).

Maybe I could leave it for a bit and see how it does before adding some fertilizer.

If they will never heal then I might as well cut them off and stop them sapping energy from the rest of the plant.

Do you mean the leaves or the pup? If it's the pup, you could carefully cut it off/separate it if the main plant still isn't doing that well.

If it's the leaves, I would leave them because even if they don't look great leaves help photosynthesis and store extra water for the plant. Eventually they will be shed.

Yeah, I agree with Kevin. Those leaves aren't sapping energy. They might look a little tired, but in the grand scheme of things, they're perfectly good leaves. They're photosynthesizing and making energy to grow the roots the plant needs, and they're storing water just like they're supposed to.

It is recommended that plants in inorganic mixes should be fed a very weak fertilizer solution with every watering. That's because the medium won't store any. Even in that tired old soil, your plant had calcium, magnesium, iron, and other micronutrients along with the potassium, nitrogen and phosphorous you added as fertilizer. In your current mix there are no measurable nutrients.

It isn't a good idea to fertilize a sick plant the way people normally fertilize plants- by giving large doses only a few times a year- because usually the person doesn't know why the plant is sick to begin with, and the plant isn't well enough to take up all those nutrients and grow, so they can burn roots, accumulate in the soil, and further damage the plant and complicate things.

But no plant can live without these nutrients, period. Your plant has some extra stored in tissues, so it'll get by for a while, but there is no point in withholding a weak mixture because all that mixture does is make available to those little roots the same nutrients that were available to them in the old mix. You're not adding enough to hurt it. You're just trying to make the mix equal in nutrient content to soil.

I don't know how often Rina fertilizes (sporadically), or what she uses, or how strong it is, or even what other sources of micronutrients might be available to her plants (already in the municipal water, from bugs or birds, or roots growig through the hole, or dust, or anything), but I do know that in an inorganic mix, no plant can go forever without being fertilized. On this front, I think you're better off using a very weak solution often (1/4 maintenance dose or less). If you skip the fertilizer (with magnesium and calcium), and you continue to have issues, it'll be hard to rule out nutrient deficiency as a possible cause. Not fertilizing will just complicate things.

Just my opinion.

I already said that they get fertilized maybe 2,3 or perhaps 4x. I use MG 12-4-8, about recommended strength (or little less). I do not make solution specifically for succulents - if they need to be watered by me since there was no rain for a while (not very often), they get what my non-succulent potted plants and perennials in ground get. Watering with collected rain water as much as possible as our water is very hard. I like things to be as simple as possible. I am not suggesting for anyone to do as I do...

Hi Roxette, I've been following this thread and I wanted to add my two cents on watering. With your gritty mix there is very very little risk of overwatering. I'm not saying you should give it a gallon of water a day but you can safely soak the "soil" once every 7 to 10 days and it will get along well. If you need to know how much water, my method is to fill up the kitchen sink and set the pot in there for 10 minutes, pull it out and let the excess water drain. Also, I wouldn't be worried about seasons either, unless you grow it outdoors all year long. While it's indoors the temperatures will be mild, and humidity will be low so it will want to grow.

I also recommend fertilizing, I mix mine at 1/4 strength and feed with every watering. With no soil for nutrients to accumulate in you can't possibly over fertilize, not to mention watering with the method I mentioned above would flush the growing medium.

About 4 months ago I repotted all of my plants in gritty mix and started fertilizing this way and it has changed my life, I thought my plants were doing well before...

Thank you for clarifying about fertilizing and to Patrick concerning watering. I did my first today, used rain water and covered as much of the surface area as possible. I think I used about half a gallon. It definitely drained/ran..was every where on the patio. I was surprised at how red the water ran, though eventually it seemed to clean up - must have been dust that settled.

I am not familiar with the 12-4-8; would this be suitable?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Purpose-Concentrated-Liquid-Bottle/dp/B00JPBVV4O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480773527&sr=8-1&keywords=miracle+grow+all+purpose

Is that correct you suggested feeding it every watering? So about two three times a month?

Roxette

In 'Product description' it says: Nutrient content: NPK 6-3-6 with trace elements. (- so that would be 2-1-2 rather than 3-1-2).

Miracle gro 12-4-8 with micro nutrients works well. You can try half the recommended dose for houseplants every other watering.

Phooey, I did not see the nutrient ratio. Well I am still hunting around - not finding much in the way of a like for like with the 12-4-8.

7-3-5
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Indoor-Plant-Concentrate-Spray/dp/B01C4FN5P0/ref=sr_1_2?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1481216034&sr=1-2&keywords=cactus+food

8-34-32
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chempak-Cactus-Succulent-Fertiliser-200g/dp/B004KQ4AF6

I found this in my cupboard:

The ratio is very important. Trace elements could be added if fertilizer doesn't have needed ones, but if the ratio of NPK is wrong, it can't be changed easily. Maybe you can take some time to read -this post- that will explain why is the ratio important. It is quite long, may have to be re-read, but one can learn a lot. I find that making notes while reading helps :)

Awesome!

Read and understood some about the meaning of 'NPK,' balances of nutrients and deficiencies etc. Though I am still perplexed because while I realise you want to have relative elements ratio, surely there must be a safety net, e.g. you do not absolutely need 3-1-2 or 12-4-8.

When I posed the question to someone else, they said no, and they used this for quite a while with good results https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schultz-Cactus-2-7-7-liquid-4-Ounce/dp/B00BARLGXW

I know the N is low but it would be impossible to over fertilise in that regard and would take away any worries about using it with every weekly watering.

Unfortunately most dealers over here do not list NPK or even show you the actual ingredients and try to figure it out yourself. I found some manufacturers whom didn't even have this data available.

I did manage to find this list from a helpful green thumb :

JAB --------- Sulphate of Potash 1.3kg ---------0,0,48 ------ 3.67
JAB ----------Growmore - 4kg ---------------------7,7,7 ------- 4.75
Bayer --------Phostrogen - 1.25kg --------------14,10,27 ---- 5.47
Bayer ------- Phostrogen - 2kg ------------------14,10,27 ----- 5.87
Miraclegrow - all purpose - 2kg ---------------24,8,16 ------ 6.24
Miraclegrow - all purpose - 1kg ----------------24,8,16 ------ 7.27
JAB --------- Blood, fish and bone - 4kg -----5,5,6.5 ------ 7.56
JAB --------- Sulphate of ammonia - 1kg -----21,0,0 ----- 10.90
Westland ---- liquid - 2 litre ----------------------5,2.5,10 ---- 11.40
JAB ----------Bone meal - 4kg -------------------3.5,7,0 ----- 11.88
Bio --------- Top rose - liquid - 1 litre -----------5,6,12 ------ 13.00
Miraclegrow - slow release - 1 kg ------------18,9,11 ----- 13.13
Homebase --- tomato feed - liquid - 2l -----3.9,2.6,7.7 -- 17.57
Levington --- Tomorite - liquid - l litre -------4,4.5,8 ------ 21.15
Miraclegrow - slow release tablets 165 g--10,11,18 ----- 62.00
Miraclegrow - liquid feed - 0.57 litre ------ -12,4,8 -------- 73.03

At this point I thought 'fine, Rina has given me a courteous recommendation which she knows to work. I will simply buy the Miracle Gro and have it imported.'

But then! I see this and it's NPK is is a simple 0.5 - 1 -1 and does not contain any micro nutrients...rather looks like a snack for cacti.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Foaming-Succulent-Plant-Food/dp/B00MKB6G8M

Rina do you think it would then be optimal to use the Miracle Gro 12 4 8 as fertilizer and the succulent product as food, and use it sparingly, or try the Schultz product and combine it with every watering while I am nurturing the plant through it's transition to gritty mix life?

I still have a bottle of 2-7-7 and think it was a waste of money.

The miracle gro foaming is also bad because it's hard to measure exactly how much you are dispensing. Not recommended.

You do not need to buy 'succulent' plant food. It is a bunch of marketing hooplah. =) I fell for it before and that's why I have some 2-7-7 and some useless 'tomato' fertilizer in the garage.

Ratio is important. If not ideal (depending how bad) you will get salt accumulation and your plants won't grow as well. Nothing will die immediately but it is a long term issue.

Personally, I find fertilizing one of the most poorly understood areas of growing with an extremely large amount of misinformation out there.

You have 3 there on your list:

Miraclegrow - all purpose - 2kg ---------------24,8,16 ------ 6.24
Miraclegrow - all purpose - 1kg ----------------24,8,16 ------ 7.27

Miraclegrow - liquid feed - 0.57 litre ------ -12,4,8 -------- 73.0

(What is the last figure? 6.24; 7.27; 73.0?)

Always going to recommend liquid over powdered! It's simpler and much less effort, despite the small price premium. =)

For this first round I've used that liquid food I had in the shed as I have not yet decided what to use full time.

@Rina

The last figure is the total active ingredients.

Well unfortunately Miracle Gro will not ship overseas, and still no joy with any premade 12-4-8 mixture over here.

Roxette

MG I saw listed on UK amazon site - didn't say it ships from another country?

If you find another one with same ratio, it will work easily. How about MG 24-8-16 from your list? (that is same 3-1-2 ratio). Doesn't matter if it is made by Miracle, or Bayer, or Schultz or some other manufacturer...

The 12-4-8 is from America.

I can get a hold of 24-8-16 here.

The water soluble one will take quite a while to reach here; not sure it's actually sourced from in UK.

The non water soluble version, is readily available https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000TRKPSQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1SIJNXLGQTMR7

Should I buy both and use the non water to get things starts with slow release while the other arrives?

24-8-16 is the same thing. Just the mixing/dilution instructions will be slightly different.

The powdered type is water-soluble and the same stuff. It's cheaper but a little more work because you have to measure, dissolve, then use. This is not a time-release fertilizer.

I don't recommend time-release fertilizers for pots. They look like little pellets and don't dissolve quickly in water. The problem is that their fertilizer release amount/time depends heavily on temperature - when it's really hot it releases quickly and when cold very little. Which is the opposite of what most want and a big compromise for convenience.

@ewwmayo

To be clear, I was confirming I can get both 24-8-16 products over here, however the water soluble will take a bout a month to arrive, while the the slow release(?) that I linked is available now.

I am to understand the water soluble is the desirable one, though wondered if I should also get the slow release and put some in now to get things started or just keep feeding it my cactus focus liquid feed until the water soluble product arrives.

Roxette

There is no rush with fertilizer, especially if any plants need to be repotted first - it is more important to get them into fast draining medium. Also make sure they have plenty of light. If you start fertilizing under insufficient light, you will 'push' plants to grow even more etiolated - they will grow skinny, weak, may not have best color. (I actually do not even use fertilizers for succulents. I do not recommend you do the same, but no need to rush and use anything available).

If you can't get liquid, get the water soluble and start using when it arrives. That is fertilizer I use on all my tropical plants and garden plants since I can buy it in bigger amounts, and the liquid is usually available only in one size bottle.

ewwmayo gave you very good explanation about time release fertilizers (quote from his last post): ..."I don't recommend time-release fertilizers for pots. They look like little pellets and don't dissolve quickly in water. The problem is that their fertilizer release amount/time depends heavily on temperature - when it's really hot it releases quickly and when cold very little. Which is the opposite of what most want and a big compromise for convenience"...

Contacted both Miracle Gro and a UK garden distributor to comment on an appropriate product that meets the base NPK ratio(s).

The garden distributor said that they have't seen or sell any 3:1:2 base ratio liquid feed. The best suggestion they had for premade products was the same thing I already found : https://www.lovethegarden.com/products/feeding/miracle-gro-all-purpose-soluble-plant-food

and to use it with a water feeder.

I did however note these

https://www.lovethegarden.com/products/feeding/miracle-gro-liquafeed-all-purpose-plant-food-refills

Which based on the .pdf states a ratio of 12:1.7:6.6

I think it's the closest I am going to get.

I have been using the Miracle Gro All Purpose for years (24-8-16). I dilute it about 1/4 the recommended strength and use it several times a month in regular watering can. BTW - my plants are outside all year long.

Roxette

You said that you can get water soluble 24-8-16. so why are you looking for something else?

I also have the 24-8-16 water soluble powder. Would still be using it if I wasn't so lazy. =)

I am getting confused now.

They sell 'soluble' food

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Purpose-Soluble-Plant-Food/dp/B000TAP7PY/

and then the same thing again but as 'slow release'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotts-Miracle-Release-Soluble-Plant/dp/B01N4GJOFT/

Then they have 'water soluble' food

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Plants-Seeds-Bulbs/SCOTTS-MIRACLE-GRO-Water-Soluble-24-8-16/B005LD2A4Ue

Yet do not claim it's continuous release.

I was going to use the last one.

As for plants not needing any fertilizing right away, well that have been re-potted for several weeks now. Unfortunately three of the six pups died. They were what looked like water logged as the roots (admittedly they didn't have much to begin with) were wet and discolored from the cat litter.

Some of them still have vibrant leaves, there was just nothing happening beneath.

I also noticed that the ones that have passed on, the rocks around the root area was wet and it's been a week since last watering.

Roxette

Water soluble is a powder, that you measure with enclosed scoop and add to water. It will dissolve quite fast, water will turn slight blue color (I am talking about MG water soluble) and you use it to water plants. Slow release comes in little ball-like capsules, it is added to potting mix, and will release NPK into the mix over period of time. ewwmayo explained that already in his post in December, and I even quoted hin on Dec. 28, so I apologize for repeating.

More 'soil' is in the mix you are using, longer it takes to dry up. So if the rocks were still wet after about a week, it suggests to me the potting mix you have is more water retaining. Either improve it, or water less often. This is more important then wanting to fertilize: unless you figure out proper watering regime for plants, no fertilizer will help them.

Partial quote from your last post:...'were wet and discolored from the cat litter'... Where did cat litter came from? I don't remember you mentioning it before, are you using it in the mix? Some could be used, but some is not suitable.

Yes, litter, pumice and chick flint grit at about 1:1:1 ratio. It's the approved Tesco's low dust and I sifted every thing quite a lot before hand. Obviously some dust remained and the color will probably always be there.

The pups were not in any great condition before I repotted them and I suspect on their way out some time before. Something had killed the roots more or less and I suspect this was inevitable.

I will water less on the smaller ones then - that is a shame though, I was hoping for no water retention at all (it definitely pours out the bottom quick).

Since rain water can sometimes be scarce, is it acceptable to save the drained water and reuse?

Thanks

Saving and reusing water is a bad idea because it can spread pathogens and salts will accumulate in the water.

Is there something wrong with your tap water?

Roxette I would try larger grit for adult chickens instead of the chicks. You want the other particles to be similar in size to that - I think the particles you have may be too small and that combined with the DE are just holding a lot more water than you want. Or you could go straight pumice but either way I suspect you could (should?) eliminate the cat litter (DE) entirely.

Not sure what you mean by 'approved' cat litter? Hope that it is Tesco cat litter recommended by succulent/bonsai experts. If it is clumping, that is not suitable. Some turn to mush. I use turface, and les than 1/3rd of total - using appropriate cat litter would be the same.

elucast is right by saying that chick grit is too small.

At this point, I think you'd be good with just straight pumice as suggested above.

Hi all,

The cat litter is the approved Tesco low dust that is popular with Bonsai growers.
It is not clumping.

I have received the water soluable Miracle Gro. I will use it once per month during this dormant season rather than the usual two weeks, with one watering every week
on the large plant and every two weeks on the pups.

Size of the chick flint grit is about 3-5mm on average as is with the rest of the mix. Should the mix continue to stay wet more than expected, I will try some larger stuff I have.

@ewwmayo

No, though I prefer rain water to any tap water when possible. When it's not plentiful saving it seems ideal. I will stop reusing.

Unfortunately two of the oldest leaves have started dying at the base and a few inches up the leaf itself. It's dark at the base and the leaf surface is brown and extremely dry, like a past harvest corn plant(or dead corn plant for that matter).

I think more of the oldest leaves will fall away eventually. It may be a sign the plant is trying to get rid of the old and sick parts so it can continue growing.

It looked to me that some of the bottom leaves were folding over or creasing at the base. In that case, they will eventually die. It happens. But I would avoid watering this plant for a long time right now. Just let it do what it's going to do. It can go a very very long time with out water.

Hello all, it's been a while. The mother is still going after being transplanted into a gritty mix as described above.

I have lost some of the more mature leaves, which as Lauren said they would /will eventually die. We're countering this by cutting them early to at least get some use out of them.

The top 'half' of the plant seems to have eventually come around after winter ended and I suppose a dash of the food /Miracle Gro has been some what instrumental in that process.

We get a new leaf every few weeks it seems, though oddly there's been no pups this entire time - just growth from the mother.

I still have some leaves that are curved inward from the edges, and no amount of watering seems to help them.

We'll see how long this one goes - maybe one day all of the original mature leaves will be gone, replaced by the newer part of the plant.

Thanks again all for the help along this journey.

Roxy

Oh, well, this is great! So glad your aloe is coming around. They recover from almost anything! Perhaps a bit more sun exposure to round things out?