jjkoc - Bishops Castle is a modern shrub, hybridized in England, while Mme Ernest Calvat is an antique (1888) Bourbon rose. I do not grow either of them, but if you look on the website Help Me Find Roses "http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.3995"; you can see lots of pictures and get more info on both of them.

Personally, if I was in So California and had to choose, I would try Mme Ernest Calvat, but that is for my reasons:

1) I love actual old old roses

2) HMF says MECalvat is heat hardy to a warmer zone - sometimes roses hybridized in England like their cooler climate better than our hot one.

3) I think the blooms on MEC are prettier.

Hopefully someone who grows both, or either, will respond also.

Jackie

I grow Bishop's Castle and I grow Madame Isaac Pereire, of which Madame Ernest Calvat is a sport. I don't grow MEC, so I don't know how it compares to MIP. BC has a looser flower form, particularly in the heat. At its best, it has what I call the chignon form, cupped and sort of like a ruffled skirt. Brother Cadfael, Radio Times, and St. Swithun can have this form. MIP has a quartered form at its best, and has more trouble with its flowers in adverse conditions. In terms of the bush, I've had more trouble growing MIP, which seems more picky. I have not been able to grow it well in my new garden. It is susceptible to mildew in my climate (we don't get black spot or rust). BC has been easy as pie with no disease. Both can get gangly canes, which I like. Fragrance of MIP is rich rose, sweet yes, but great depth and complexity, not harsh, it is comparable to a good aged port. BC has a less complex fragrance, still strong and lovely, almost powdery. It's more like a gin and tonic. I don't know how they will do in SoCal compared to where I live, but that's where the addiction comes in...trying them.

jjkoc - hopefully someone from So Cal will chime in. Since you said you are a newby, I just wanted to tell you that growth habits and disease issues with roses are VERY climate and location specific. A rose which is difficult to grow in zone 7 might be easy in zone 10, and visa versa.

Jackie

I had Madame IP, it bloomed heavily in spring and then a flower or two after that. It had a beautiful fragrance and got really bad Rust. Long gone.

I have 'Bishops Castle', it blooms constantly, in clusters. The flowers are smallish and not nearly as full as MIP. The fragrance is also beautiful and discernable from 5 feet away. I prefer BC by far, but everyone's taste is different.

If you have not grown an OGR before, in So Cal 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' and old-ish 'Gruss an Aachen are good varieties to start with.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences, observations and the pluses/minuses of each rose.

I am going to take the plunge and try both BC and MEC. It will be interesting to experience them for myself and I am really curious about the respective fragrances.

I believe its really fragrance that drives me to try particular roses. This is the one factor that has given me some reservations about SdlM, though I want to try a budded shrub form.

Does it really smell like beer??!! Wish it would have a scent like Munstead Wood instead...

My experience echoes HoovB's.

We have grown MIP, and also MEC. Of the two, MEC was a better rose in coastal Southern California. It bloomed more, and had SLIGHTLY better resistance to disease.

But to be entirely honest, neither is well-suited to Southern CA. They really need some winter.

In my conditions (Coastal Ventura Co.) The amount of rust Is truly amazing. Both will bloom reasonably well in spring, but little or nothing after that.

There is a Found Rose -- "Old Town Novato" which I consider to be a viable replacement for MIP -- and it is far more tolerant of our conditions. I have not known it to rust, and mildew is very rare (as long as it gets enough water). The blooms are (IMHO) actually prettier, having a silvery reverse to the petals.

Rose Petals Nursery offers it. So does Reverence For Roses. And I am 90% sure that Burlington Rose Nursery also has it.

I can pretty well second what hoovb says. With the climate getting warmer it helps if you can grow BC in morning sun and late afternoon shade. I keep mine short because otherwise the flowers gaze at the dirt, or I suppose you could tie the canes to some sort of support. I tend to think that MEC will not have the necessary winter chill and it is much more prone to disease from what I've read. Souvenir de la Malmaison is an excellent rose here and can stand more heat than BC, but these days almost anything frizzles when it gets to around 100 and above, and some roses don't even like the middle to high nineties much. They all do better with plenty of water.

Edited later: I don't particularly care for the fragrance of SdlM but when a rose is this prolific with bloom, practically throughout the whole year, and the blooms are so gorgeous (in the right climate; it's abysmal for Jeri) I'm willing to overlook the factor of fragrance. I did not see the pictures of Old Town Novato when I wrote before, but that is the rose I would choose instead of Madame Ernest Calvat because I do think the latter rose is not as well suited to our climate. However, you have to follow where your dreams lead you; no one else can really decide for you.

I don't particularly care for the flower shape nor color of Bishop's Castle and consider it a poor replacement for Pretty Jessica or The Wife of Bath; hence, I refuse to grow it. Besides, as Jackie pointed out, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Many years ago I had Mme. Ernest Calvat in my SoCal garden, Fountain Valley in Orange County specifically. It's a vigorous grower forming an arching 5X5 shrub that blooms well if self-pegged. The leaves are dull green and are prone to rust, the other foliar diseases depend on the method and quantity of watering. Overall, it's a dependable performer in SoCal if deadheaded, watered, and fed. The loosely quartered or muddled flowers are about three inches diameter, light pink, with a strong fragrance. It blooms in definite flushes with pauses in between versus continuously like a floribunda. When pegged the flowers are produced from every leaf node and the bush is smothered in flowers, but the flower stems themselves are too short for the vase. A solution is to cut off a branch with multiple flowers. MEC makes a good garden and landscape shrub. As a class, Bourbons do fine in OC without extended chill.

For beginners, I suggest using the search function and reading up on a particular rose as much as possible before buying it. Secondly, to ensure success and build your confidence as you gain more experience, don't fight your climate and pick roses tailored for your situation.

For SoCal, the old garden rose classes of Teas, Noisettes, Hybrid Perpetuals, Bourbons, Portlands, Damasks, Musks, & Chinas are excellent. Centifolias, Mosses, and Albas are hit and miss. Gallicas and Species roses are generally frustrating. The Teas in particular excel in balmy SoCal -- while most Europeans have to grow them in greenhouses.

As for David Austin roses, be very very careful. They're water hogs, and 75% of his roses grow huge in SoCal, throwing out 8-12 foot long canes on a regular basis. You will experience it soon enough, and it will be an important lesson to learn.

If you're north of San Diego county, I recommend you try these roses and see how you like the various OGR classes. All of them have flowered and grown well in Orange County:

Felicite Parmentier

Officinalis

Duchesse de Montebello

La Ville de Bruxelles

Mme Louis Lévêque

Jacques Cartier

Maggie

Vick's Caprice

Mateo's Silk Butterflies

Maman Cochet

Mrs B.R. Cant

Mme Berard

Stanwell Perpetual

Tamora

Thank you Romogen for sharing your experiences and recommendations, Fountain Valley is about 20 min up the 405 from here. I would love to grow more teas, unfortunately they would get too large for our yard. One day maybe I will have the space!

I am curious about two varieties you listed as having done well in FV. I love the look of gallicas and Albas, and saw you listed Felicite Parmentier an Alba, and Duchesse de Montebello a Gallica hybrid and would not have expected these to do well...

Thank you everybody, maybe I will build my experience more before delving into OGRs. It's great to have a list to start thinking about!

If Teas are too big for your property, for God's sake don't plant MIP or MEC!

They not only grow as big as any Tea (or possibly bigger) but their long, arching canes are armored with many, many vicious prickles. You don't want to spend the coming years trying to edge past a huge prickly monster. I once self-pegged MIP (a terrible task I would never repeat) and it was easily 8-ft. across x 7-ft. tall.

I'd strongly suggest that, if your space is tight, you select fewer plants, well-suited to your conditions. In O.C., you may get away with Souv. de la Malmaison -- and it has the virtue of being modestly-sized. Here is a very old 'Souv. de la Malmaison,' in the Sacramento City Cemetery.

Wow! I didn't realize MEC could get that large! Maybe I will stick with trying SdlM as my first OGR. Thank you Jeri for sharing about the size aspect. Gosh, roses and their behavior in different locales sure is perplexing...and I guess part of the gardening experience!

Felicite Parmentier & Duchesse de Montebello are the exceptions of their class, in that they will bloom with only a little bit of chill, and they will remain compact. To be perfectly frank, the plant will grow and you might get a handful of flowers each spring, versus someone with winter snow who will have a thicket with hundreds of flowers every year. However, those gorgeous five flowers you do get will be worth the toil and trouble. IMHO, it's pointless to grow a rose that doesn't bloom at all, which would be most Gallicas.

You don't have to wait for more experience, pick any plant from my previous OGR list and give it a try. The first six + Vick's Caprice will remain small plants. Regarding Austins: Tamora, Wife of Bath, Pretty Jessica, Fair Bianca, Tradescant, Belle Story, Ambridge Rose, The Prince, Charles Darwin and a few others are size appropriate for your garden.

Souvenir de la Malmaison takes a few years to get established, but has a more vigorous climbing sport and semi double sport Souv. de St. Anne's. If you insist on medium pink, please consider the Portland, Rose du Roi, which has three other color sports as well: Bernard (blush), Mogador (purple), and Panachee de Lyon (striped)... if you're lucky enough, you might have one plant producing all sports on various branches, which is quite rare.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5470&tab=1

Are you near Irvine then? As a litmus test you should go to Roger's Gardens nursery and ask if Lavender Lady Lilac will bloom in your neighborhood. The closer you are inland, the more you will get winter chill compared to the coast. Anywhere south of Camp Pendleton is too tropical for the majority of OGR's.

Romogen's recommendations are -- IMHO -- right on target.

I am within sight of the sea. If you are further inland, you may do better with those roses.

I went through an early phase during which I was convinced that I could grow those wonderful once-bloomers. NOT. I don't regret having tried -- because at least I experienced them, and I learned from the experience. But I do now know what I cannot grow. Bourbons are OUT. HP's can be "iffy" though some are good. Teas and Chinas shine here, as do the cluster-flowering Noisettes.

The only HPs I grow now are a few carefully chosen Foundlings. "Old Town Novato," "De la Vina Mystery", "Crestline Mulberry" . . .

I am thrilled to see that "Pulich Children" thrives for me:

SDLM was my first OGR and I absolutely love this rose! As far as the fragrance goes it smells more peppery/spicy to me than beer but I have on a few occasions picked up the beer smell but it wasn't an offensive smell to my nose. I happen to like the way SDLM smells and I love her for her gorgeous blooms and easy care in my Texas heat. Mine is 4 yrs own root and is still small. I say plant what you want and see how it goes because you never know until you try how a rose will grow for you in your particular yard. Good luck with choosing, you have received some great advice so far from people who know what they are talking about, I chose SDLM because Ingrid suggested it to me when I wanted to plant my first OGR.

SdlM is a wonderful rose here... well worth trying. It isn't great everywhere, but if it is, you should have it. As for scent, this rose was called the Queen of Beauty and Fragrance for a reason.

Having said that, I'll admit that her scent isn't my favorite; it has a sharpness (or maybe it's a peppery note) that doesn't thrill me. I certainly don't dislike it, and I haven't had the beery (yeasty?) experience with her. We all experience odors differently, so if you're really concerned about it, perhaps you can track one down in a local garden or nursery and you can experience the scent with your own nose.

Some of the crimson Chinas have a delicious fragrance and don't get too huge; I really like the wine-and-roses fragrance of 'White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth', for example.

And I don't know how you can resist those HP photos Jeri posted above... "Old Town Novato" and "Pulich Children" are pretty darned gorgeous, but "Grandmother's Hat" or "Barbara's Pasture Rose" might come closer to the mid-pink, full roses you asked about in the subject line...?

Have fun deciding,

Virginia

Thank you everyone! Jeri I love those found roses, especially De la Vina Mystery and Pulich Children--color is amazing! Wish they were cultivated for sale somewhere...

Thank you for the encouragement Romogen, Boncrow and Virginia! I have been trying to be selective in the varieties I want to order. Asking questions on this forum and perusing great blogs like Hoovb's (a plus that her garden is near my zone) and other amazing blogs!

BUT I do have zone envy. And being a beginner it's hard to gauge how bad all the negatives of a rose not-well-suited to my zone might be. I've never experienced rust, I have seen powdery mildew as tiny white smudges on a few leaves once this whole year, I DO know what black spot looks like on a HT that was planted by a previous owner of the house. But it only occurs on that one rose and doesn't cause defoliation. The roses I have chosen so far based on many positive reviews from this forum (Munstead Wood and Jubilee Celebration) have been great! Firefighter is just now starting to produce flowers that look as they should but the fragrance has been beautiful and last until the petals fall as Hoovb said.

I think it's my inexperience that keeps me dreaming and wishing. And gosh darn it those blogs with amazingly beautiful photos of countless roses; especially some from Japan.

I remember reading one of Ingrid's posts where she asked about a rose variety and after finding out it was not well-suited for her hot garden, she moved on (reminded me of a scene from Finding Nemo, when Marlin and Dory snap-out of the trance of the Anglerfish).

At this point I am timid to try roses that may do poorly or eek out a few flowers annually. Though I am very very curious to try out roses on Romogen's list. I will have to ask at Roger's about Lavender Lady does well here...

Thank you everyone for your guidance, advice, sharing and encouragement. It's really a wonderful experience to receive such help. Hopefully one day I can post some photos of my rose garden...and some advice from my own trials!

Roses that have done well here and have an old-rose look are Aunt Margy's Rose, with small, fragrant, lilac pink flowers which seems to bloom perpetually and The Faun (aka The Fawn) whose many petaled blooms are a warmer pink on a spreading but not to tall bush. Another pretty smaller rose is Gruss an Aachen, which did better for me than Pink Gruss an Aachen. Spice is a Bermuda Mystery Rose that I hope to get again because it's an old rose that is compact, disease free and a very frequent bloomer. The pale pink to white flowers are not large but it's just a very charming and carefree rose. La France is a rose I'd never be without although so far the blooms, which are stunning, are less so on my newer rose. By next year it should have its normal gorgeous and fragrant blooms.

If you are getting these hot temps in the high nineties and one hundred plus and above right now, any fall bourbon blooms are going to fry. That means only a spring bloom to enjoy. Sometimes the wind blows my spring flush to bits and sometimes not. Grandmother's hat or BC would give you more chances to get flowers. I'm not saying don't try bourbons......I still have my bourbons, but I am relocating them to an area of morning sun next to a tall planting that shields them from wind. They also need an extraordinary amount of water to produce anything wonderful.

Yeah -- Hybrid Perpetuals are "iffy" here, but every Bourbon I've ever tried to grow has been an unmitigated disaster.

And, FWIW, "Grandmother's Hat" is a rather "Un-HP-Like" HP. But there is a reason why, even with our collection whittled way down from what it was a decade ago, we STILL have upwards of a dozen "Grandmother's Hat" plants. It is simply the most foolproof rose I've ever grown.