Cornus Florida or Cornus Kousa? Either one would look nice used in this way. I would plant a row of mixed pink and white flowers.

Cornus Kousa with Cornus Kousa 'Satomi'

Cornus Florida with Cornus Florida 'Rubra'

Thanks to you all. I'm excited to pursue this. If they grow about 25' wide I need to plant them 60' apart, correct? That seems like a lot of space. Which variety grows the tallest and with just one trunk, not a cluster like a bush? I'm finding mixed info. on my web searches.

Typically c. florida is only 1 trunk. You wouldn't need to plant them so far apart, flowering dogwood (in my experience) only gets about 10ft wide, so plant them about 15-20ft apart.

I second Logan's opinion on the spacing.IMO if in 20 years you have a HUGE one somehow it will amaze people.

If dogwood (I'm assuming you mean the native species, cornus florida) grows well in your area, it's a good choice. Z5 is, however, about their hardiness limit. Dogwoods are also prone to a number of diseases which are more likely to appear in trees stressed by cold, drought and less than ideal conditions. The wind protection afforded by the larger trees in this location is a plus. There are also real drawback to any monoculture type planting as tornado mentions above.

About 40 years ago dogwood anthracnose arrived in CT. The first trees to be killed were those in woodlands. Trees in the open contracted the disease, but many survived. About 15 years ago the disease arrived here in TN. All the trees in my woods and surrounding woods were killed, open grown trees were virtually unaffected. To this day there are no large dogwoods in the nearby woods, but there are small seedlings. Time will tell as to their future.

There are supposedly anthracnose resistant varieties available, you might want to look into them. Cornus kousa isn't subject to anthracnose, but I don't think it looks as good in a woodland setting as C. florida.

I have 5 naturally growing dogwoods that are in full sun. They were 6' volunteers 32 years ago and are now well over 20' tall and wide, branched to the ground. I've planted many more in full sun, and one commonly finds them here in full sun and they are fine. They may not be quite as elegant as woodland specimens, but they are attractive in their own way.

as to proper siting.. consider snow removal on the driveway.. if its a variable ...

no tree/shrub stops growing... size estimates are just that.. estimates based on decades .. spacing is more a function of your goal.. rather than guessing at the future .. there is no reason they can not grow together .... but if you want them to never touch.. then spacing gets wider .... make sense???

ken

tiffew, I love Cornus florida. But there are some important caveats worth considering before investing your time and money.

First, it is very important to remember that C. florida has become very fragile over the generations, susceptible to disease and insect problems. You must keep that in mind.

The named cultivars may be more resistant than unnamed seedling grown trees. There are many white dogwood cultivars, each with its own varietal description worthy of your research. The named varieties will also be more uniform in appearance, as well, which is something you probably want from a design standpoint in this situation.

Don't just buy a 'white dogwood', check to see which named varieties are good in your location.

If you haven't had a professional soil test taken, please do so. At the very least, you need to have an accurate analysis of the soil pH, to make sure that it is somewhat acid.....dogwoods are particular about that. Do not rely on a cheap home test, but contact your local OSU Extension office.

Lastly, though dogwoods can be planted in the full sun, they won't be very happy. If we disregard the importance of soil pH and the need for some sun protection, we may see "failure to thrive" in these trees. What happens then? Diseases and insects come to visit and stay to play!

There are crosses between C. florida and C. kousa that are disease-resistant and look more like C. florida than C. kousa. There are also crosses with C. nuttallii (our Western dogwood) but they may not be as appropriate for your area.

This is all great advice. What are the names of the crosses of Kousa and Florida? Is this what you mean by "named varieties"? I'm new to all this, as you can tell. Thanks!

The one that I had was called 'Aurora' (It did fine; I took them out because we did some construction). But you can Google and check for others. A 'named variety' is a cultivar (short for cultivated variety), essentially a selection that exhibits different characteristics from the wild species (disease resistant, more floriferous, slower growing, different color, etc) that is propagated to ensure that the characteristics are stable, and then introduced into the trade under a name. In this example, the wild species are Cornus florida and Cornus kousa, which were crossed to produce Cornus x 'Aurora'. The 'x' indicates a crossed species and could also be written Cornus x florida kousa 'Aurora'. This is a shortcut oversimplified explanation and someone is going to nail me with inaccuracies but it serves your purpose I think. 'Aurora' has a narrow habit - it may be too narrow for your site, so check out what else is available. With desirable flowering small trees such as dogwoods, the breeders have been busy.

Thanks :) I found Celestial for sale at a reasonable price and it appears to be a cross between the two. I'm going to measure and maybe order some tomorrow. I need to make sure they are not topped off (cut down for shipping) first.

The florida x kousa hybrids go by the name of Rutger's hybrids. There's a bunch, Google is your friend. For me in TN, florida and kousa are much better growers than the cross, YMMV.

I think that location is really important when it comes to disease resistance/susceptibility. Warm vs cool nights, humid vs dry, etc all affect the ability of pathogens to flourish.

Well our weather here is incredibly variable even from year to year.

It would be trial and error for me to determine whether a hybrid was best or not in my area, correct?

Not weather but climate. Climate is the long term weather (another oversimplificiation). Best way is to find locals (nursery folks, Master Gardeners, County Extension, etc) who can share their experiences, and to read about the various cultivars. Some are developed specifically for climatic issues - cold hardiness, ability to withstand summer humidity, etc (not dogwood per se, all cultivars). Someone from Ohio or environs should chime in. I'm about as different a climate as is possible within the lower 48!

The Rutgers dogwoods are shown and described by the originating organization here.

Dogwood lovers have embraced Dr. Orton's hybrid varieties as being
unique, both with flowering and form, which are significantly improved
compared to the native American dogwood. Rutgers hybrid dogwood
varieties have earned a reputation for improved performance as
landscapers and gardeners now recognize Rutgers dogwoods to be highly
resistant to the dogwood borer, while displaying significantly improved
resistance to powdery mildew and dogwood anthracnose. Continuing the
breeding research program, now in its 3rd decade, Rutgers' Dr. Thomas Molnar has developed new exciting and unique varieties.

http://agproducts.rutgers.edu/dogwood/

Each selection has its own characteristics. Venus ('Kn30 8') for instance has been seen to be vigorous, is probably the most successful one so far. Already it has been given an Award of Garden Merit by the Royal Horticultural Society in Britain. This is their top accolade.

The spacing of trees and shrubs intended to just touch is the same as their spread. Except where deformed by crowding or shading each produces a generally more or less uniform radius, with the distance from the center to the edge in any direction being half the total width - think of them as circles with a dot in the center. So dogwoods expected to be 25 ft . wide during the years being planned for would be planted 25 ft. apart - you would only plant them double or more that distance apart if you wanted 25 ft.+ between the edges of each tree. Planted so they touch they will appear as a grouping, if in a line this will be seen as a hedge, if in a more complex arrangement then as a drift or grove.

Honestly, I would just go with the straight species if you want only white flowers. Typically if you purchase c. kousa from a nursery they will be trained to one trunk.

I see some with the same names as the Rutgers varieties online. If the description doesn't include "Rutgers" should it be assumed to be one of theirs or have the names been used broadly without rights now? Thanks!

Some patents for the Rutgers dogwoods have expired. This is true for the entire Stellar series, I believe. There's another Jersey Star series. In all cases trademarks are still in force. The prefix RUT is used for all the Rutgers hybrids. Extensive selection work, as distinct from hybridization, has also been done by the U of TN and Don Shadow's nursery in TN. Check with your extension service or state agriculture department for their recommendations. Do not in any case buy "the straight species". These will be seed grown with no guarantee of hardiness, disease resistance or good blooming qualities.

You also should probably be prepared for the possibility that you will be discouraged from pursuing this project by your extension service or agriculture department. Dogwoods, even the disease resistant ones, are not easy. They are naturally understory or woods edge trees of the southern mountains. Vast areas of the country would seem to be suitable for their culture if you go solely by hardiness zone, but many other climate and soil factors limit their success.

Thanks. There are some wild ones on the edge of our property far from where I want to plant them lining the driveway and they seem to be doing very well. I'm looking at the Celestial variety and may purchase through Bower and Branch since no local nurseries offer any of the Rutgers varieties.

The straight species (the wild ones) should be just fine. I have several of these growing in a similar setting and have never had any problems except for the occasional invasive honeysuckle vine. It will be much cheaper and easier to find regular cornus florida dogwoods. I have several in 1 gallon pots now ready to be sold.

If you have native dogwoods in the vicinity, that would be an indication that they can do well for you.

Cornus kousa is generally more forgiving than the native to adverse conditions and disease pressure, but gives a different effect.

The literature commonly states that many of the named clones of Cornus florida are southern selections and may not be as hardy in northern areas. Many have come out of TN where I live. I can't vouch for that claim personally.

Some have said that the habitat of Cornus florida is the woodland, and they do in fact grow extensively there. But personal experience growing them in CT and the much more heat prone TN tells me they grow in full sun with no problems, in fact open grown trees are less prone to contract anthracnose. There is a 100+ year old tree at the Huntsville Botanical Garden in Huntsville AL, originally grown in full sun and transplanted to the garden into full sun and it is doing fine, I've seen it.

One last thing. In a cold climate I would wait til spring to plant dogwood if is to be field dug. If containerized fall should be fine. Mulch the rootball and beyond, but keep the mulch away from the trunk.

Good luck with your endeavor.

How would I know if it field dug or not? So I should do the Kousa instead of Celestial (a hybrid)?

No, just use the regular flowering dogwood. Make sure to buy one more locally grown, if it originated in somewhere like NC or TN it probably won't be hardy enough. If you really like the look of kousa over c. florida, go for it. I like c. kousa and c. florida but think they both have their place in the landscape.

I can't get any locally right now, but can order the Celestial online. It says it has the cold hardiness we need. Is this a bad idea instead of waiting til spring for a standard kousa? I'd think since the Rutgers Celestial are resistent to mildew and pests that would be best?

I wouldn't buy a mail order tree. I would just buy standard kousa if you dont want c. florida. I would plant sometime in the spring.

But why?

Mail order is fine, presumably when dormant. You can call the nursery and get a sense of whether they know what they are talking about. Also you may be able to look them up on Dave's Garden Watchdog list, where the mail order nurseries are rated and there are user comments. The crosses are often superior, but it depends on exactly what you are looking for. Field dug vs container - if you are buying locally you can ask, or when you go to the nursery, try to pick up the pot. If it weighs 500 lbs it was field dug (native soil vs container mix). The 500 lbs is an exaggeration but you get my point. Field dug/balled and burlap trees are only available in dormant season - here in January but I suspect later where you are.

Kousa: because I wouldn't recommend a plant I have never personally worked with or seen.

Plant in spring: Because if the tree is not established severe cold may damage softwood growth and kill it back to the roots

No mail order: Mail order just isn't reliable. Usually they send you some sickly bare-root tree that has been topped, improperly pruned, or damaged in some way. I ordered some a few years ago with the roots cut. When you are at a nursery/big box store you can see the tree, see the tree's roots, see any damage, etc. With mail order you just don't know what you are getting.

There are numerous mailorder nurseries with impeccable reputations run by knowledgable and caring people: Forestfarm, Whitney Gardens, Rarefind, Sooner Plant Farm to name just a few. .Logan's belief that better plants can be had at the big box stores is ludicrous. Local independent nurseries are good places to look, but often limited in their offerings although many will be happy to order for you given enough lead time. Logan is a very young person with very limited experience. His many dogmatic assertions should be taken with a very large helping of salt.

Rarefind usually has many of the Rutgers hybrids in its catalog. Other nurseries found online can easily be checked for reliability, warranties and customer comments at Garden Watchdog/Dave's Garden.

Tiffew, Logan is giving you bad advice.....that is what he is known for, and I'm so sorry that he has confused the issue for you. We used to think that he is a youngster, but I think he's an unknowable adult pretending to have horticultural knowledge.

We are trying to steer you away from the straight species to named cultivars or hybrids, either of which are more likely to be more disease and insect resistant.

You might try your local OSU Extension office for some good, regional advice. They might even have a list of "best" dogwoods for your area. And they can help with that soil test, too.

pfft.... I have grown the regular species for years without any issues. I have never seen extensive issues with flowering dogwood.

rhizo, I am rethinking a "native thread" and I think you know why. In fact, I may go back to lurking for the same reason.

This thread is going sideways and I feel for the OP, I was going to post what you just did but you beat me.

Yikes! Well it looks like I can get Cherokee Princess locally and as it's a Rutgers variety I'm going to go look at them and see what I think. I'll post back afterward. :)

The dogwoods with Cherokee in their names are not products of the Rutgers breeding program. They are not hybrids, either. All are selections of the native c. florida made by several different nurseries in TN. None are particularly resistant to dogwood anthracnose, the most deadly of the dogwood diseases. The selection Appalchian Spring is the most resistant. The Rutgers hybrids in the Stellar series - there are 5 or 6 I think - all have "starry" names such as Aurora, Celestial, etc. Rutgers maintains a website with lots of information about these trees. The U of TN also has a very good site devoted to dogwood information.

Whether Logan L Johnson is a 14 year old (probable) or an adult is immaterial. He has plagued this and other forums under his current name and his previous one, Caldwell Home and Garden, for many months. As rhizo and kentrees noted above, threads become a series of corrections of the outrageous misinformation he spews out. Any attempts to get him to change his ways have failed. He drives people away from Gardenweb and seriously undermines the credibility of all posts.

Dogwoods would look lovely there.

You're right, not a Rutgers variety. I got tricked by an online nursery called "Rutgers" selling that variety. I'm back now to looking into the Celestial, since I can get two of them locally and more online. Thanks again. By the way, the above photo shows the area in question, the straight run of our driveway going just to the bend. The bend area is a culvert with a stream so we can't plant anything along its stretch because there isn't enough width of ground.

If what you want is one of the Rutgers hybrids, this is what you need: Cornus x rutgersensis '(name of clone)'. Confirm the name with your seller, or Google the name listed to be sure it is a Rutgers hybrid.

That is a VERY attractive drive that to me begs for Cornus florida, our native flowering dogwood, planted near the large trees on either side so in time the trees will lean into the drive somewhat, but far enough away from the drive so as to leave a panel of grass and not overhang or obscure the drive. My second choice would be Cornus kousa.

Whether they should all be a named clone for uniformity or unselected seedlings would be up to you. My own experience tells me there is more variation in kousa than florida, and seedling florida bloom at an earlier age than florida, but since this is an informal setting, variation would be okay in my opinion.

Having said all that, we still don't know for sure if C.f. is right for you. You mentioned there are wild ones near you. That is a good sign. We don't know what part of OH you are in, there's quite a difference in soils and climate between north and south, less so east-west. You need to try and talk to someone local, such as an extension agent. Are there any large public gardens or arboreta near you?

I called the extension and they said kousa and florida both work and both also have occasional problems, such as the mildew. I got no detailed info., unfortunately, as the person with whom I spoke didn't seem to have much background specifically in dogwoods. I'm between Cleveland and Akron.

tiffew: See if your library has a copy of Dogwoods by Don Shadow and Paul Capiellio. This is the best source for information on the entire genus. The information at the U of TN dogwood website is also very complete and well done.

I remember quite clearly when the first release of the Rutgers c. florida x c. kousa hybrids took place. The no-longer in business Roslyn Nursery on Long Island was among the first places to list them for sale. There was a lot of publicity and hype associated with the release. The situation may be entirely different in other parts of the country, but in New England at least they are rarely seen for sale and almost never in the landscape. So, I do have to wonder if these varieties have simply failed to live up to their early promise or if problems with them only developed over time.

You do have a beautiful site and dogwoods would certainly look great there. If clouds of white blossoms are the main attraction, you might consider a mixed planting of dogwoods, magnolia stellata, amelanchier, and chionanthus. Longer bloom time, compatible with each other and greatly reduced risks associated with monoculture.

You appear to be an easy drive from The Holden Arboretum in Kirtland, which is a world class institution. I haven't been able to find out if they have a dogwood collection, but they do have rhododendrons and conifers, species that associate well with dogwoods. Maybe a road trip is in order lol.

akamainegrower, I have 3 Rutgers here in TN, started with 4, one died. I found them 10+ years ago at a box store, never seen them for sale anywhere else, so got one of each that they had. As you said, there was a lot of hype so I thought try them. I don't remember the varieties off hand, but I do remember they were from the original introductions.

They grew well at first, then one contracted a canker that girdled the trunk at the ground line and died outright. Another got canker, I cut it below the infection and it regrew and is the best of the lot now. Of the two others, one is growing okay and the other is showing signs of canker. Native C.f. is subject to a canker both in cultivation and in the wild, but seldom kills the tree. I don't know if it is the same as the C.x r. got. I have a couple C. k. (out of ca. 25) that have a canker in the crown rather than the trunk, doesn't seem too serious though.

C.f. of course is native and extensively used in the landscape, and C. k. is becoming much more popular and can be found in box stores. Both perform very well here, with k. being much more disease and adverse condition tolerant. I'm not sure I've ever seen a C. x r. used in any local landscapes.

Here C. f. blooms early-mid April, C. x r. blooms late April-early May, and k. blooms mid-late May. There is bloom overlap between C. x r. and C. k. if April has been warm. In my opinion C. f. and C. k. are the far better trees, both in general esthetics and ability to thrive in my conditions. I've got lots of room, so the C. x r. can stay, if space was limited, the would have been replaced long ago.

Of course, the same plant does not perform the same at all locations. But I am disappointed that a cross of two species that do so well here do so poorly, at least for me.

kentrees12: Thank you for the information. This thread caused me to remember the introduction of the Rutgers hybrids and piqued my curiosity about why they seem so scarce. C. florida is very rare in northern New England. It seems to be not hardy enough for inland locations and coastal locations do not provide enough summer warmth to ripen the wood. C. kousa is far more successful although the pink ones look more sickly than attractive, at least to me. As you go south, c. florida becomes more common in MA and CT. I have never seen any of the Rutgers hybrids in Maine or NH, which of course does not mean that there are not any. The large independent nurseries in MA and ME sometimes list one or two, but I'm not sure if they are really available. The largest wholesale supplier of nursery stock in New England is in western CT and does not offer them as far as I know. It does sound as if the Rutgers crosses are pretty vulnerable to canker. This tends to be a problem for stressed trees and it certainly seems as if the stress in my location would be greater than in yours. Too bad if these trees which started out with such great promise gradually disappear from the market because of inherent problems. It certainly wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened, though.

Just heard from landscape architect that he thinks Serviceberry is much better suited to being out in the open. He advised against dogwoods not being right up under large protective trees. Thoughts?

He also advised to go with cherry trees and I found the Yoshino Cherry online for very good prices. It looks as beautiful as the dogwoods. Any thoughts on these? Are they hard to keep healthy? I'm thinking of doing a dogwood or two close to the house and then the Cherries along the stretch of driveway mentioned. Thanks, everyone. :)

If he has examined the site and seems knowledgable about suitable trees for your area (not all landscape architects are), then I would heed his advice. Amelanchier (serviceberry) is a good choice. Mixing them with other white flowered species - a few dogwoods, magnolia, white redbud, chionanthus - still seems to me a better plan than using a single species or genus, but it is most certainly your choice.

Yoshino cherries have too many pest problems. Serviceberry is multi-trunked. Dogwoods do just fine in full sun. I do like redbud and serviceberry. I just don't think serviceberry is appropriate to line the driveway. Cercis canadensis has some really cool cultivars, maybe pair the unselected species with 'royal white'. It would look great! I must agree with what kentrees put above, no reason to re-type anything already stressed.