>>>why focus so much on demanding respect<<<

? I thought folks were saying, athletes who don't stand for the national anthem have the freedom to do that. Others have the freedom to dislike that behavior and say that they dislike it. Some might see refusing to stand primarily as showing respect for the ideals of the country when the government does not live up to those ideals. Others might see refusing to stand primarily as showing disrespect for those who have died to protect those ideals. Other might see it primarily as something else.

We agree that we can disagree, that is one of the foundations of this country.

and there's the flip side - just two weeks ago in my area a young police officer was shot and killed by a man suspected (arrested in the past) of domestic violence. Against his AGING FATHER. Two policemen were on scene, trying to get the victim to safety when the suspect opened fire on them. Later we find out it was an ambush - he was looking to kill police. A fine and upstanding young man left a wife and 3 young children.

Carolb, I'm sorry if I came off that way. It's just that I wish everyone who comes from high crime areas be them black or white could change the bad cycles that have gone on for generations in their families. In many the fathers are in prison and not active in child rearing. Police should be above judging and acting against what they were taught. Some of these bad apples may have preconceived notions that have no place in the force and that is wrong.

I guess I'm thinking to big in that I would like to help eliminate that part of life.

"tinam61

and there's the flip side..."

right, which is horrific. What would people think if someone was to post here that the police were killed because they had bad parents???

Murder is ALL on the shoulders of the murderer(s).

>>>I guess I'm thinking to big in that I would like to help eliminate that part of life.<<<

No, if anything perhaps we often don't think big enough.

"A fundamental concern for others in our individual and community lives would go a long way in making the world the better place we so passionately dreamt of."

"It always seems impossible until it's done."

-Nelson Mandela

I think you are totally missing Jerrilynn's point. As for the incident in my area, I do not know anything about the suspect's family or background other than he had a history of mental health issues, which is a whole other spin-off.

An Alabama pastor said the same. Wonder if there's something in the water over there?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pastor-allen-joyner-national-anthem-shot_us_57d61590e4b03d2d459b0ec6?section=&;

Same pastor!

Didn't realize the first was a pastor. Saw the Huff Post article on Hot Topics, but didn't read the particulars.

He was just working a very patriotic crowd, all of which cheered loudly. There were no plans to literally line people up an shoot them.

That comment is very hypocritical. The military is "taking shots" to protect American rights, like protesting.

Well, I will say that it may have been a bit controversial for a high school speech.

The Wire is an excellent series! You can watch it on HBO Go if you have that. DH and I watched it a couple of summers ago because we had never seen it and we kept hearing about it.

The NFL does seem to have selective enforcement. Well, they have a whole lot of other problems, but that's another thread. Last year they also would not let a player wear pink all year to honor his late mother who died of breast cancer, only in October when the entire NFL did it. So, he put pink extensions in his hair instead.

Now ask if your very first reaction if a black football player at a game said that if the police enjoy guns so much we should line police up and let the military take a few shots at them to see how they like it. And then imagine if a black lives matter crowd cheered wildly when they said that. I doubt your reaction would've been: "well I know they didn't mean it literally so it's not a big deal."

I find the national tendency is to over exaggerate and overly punish behaviour of black people and under exaggerate and excuse behaviour of white people.

Aw my first reaction would be...regardless of the color of who said it is its wrong to say such such things. The first example seemed to be a lame attempt at reminding people of the respect of our Military. It was, after all, the anniversary of the most horrific terror attack America has ever seen. However, like I said above a high school football game is a bit controversial for such strong speeches.

Our military men and women are of all colors. After 911 people were comforting each other in the streets with no thought to skin color. They were all just Americans.

Again, w/r/t this thread, the police who went into the towers on 9/11 are not the same as police who murder unarmed citizens because of their skin color. Those are the police we are talking about.

So very true terrilynn! BTW, I heard on the national news this morning about a man who took aim - with car - at a group of police officers. Drove straight into them. I'm not sure if 2 or 3 were injured. My point is, yes, there are bad cops out there. There are bad people period. I do not believe this is the majority of our police forces.

Not the issue, tina. Of course it isn't the majority of our police. It's only when it becomes a majority of police killing unarmed citizens because of their skin color that it becomes an issue worth protesting???

Or is it so long as the bad cops are killing black unarmed citizens it's okay?

And we DO protest cop killings, by making the punishment for doing so much more severe ,usually the death penalty, for doing so, as it should be precisely because police put their lives on the line to protect us.

That has absolutely nothing to do with a real problem we have of racism and some police murdering unarmed citizens because of their skin color.

He was just working a very patriotic crowd, all of which cheered loudly. There were no plans to literally line people up an shoot them.

His words were an attention-seeking cheap shot, borne of ignorance and polarization, and certainly out of line for one who purports to share Christ's love for a living.

Instead of continually diverting the discussion away from the issue of bad policing, what about discussing ways to deal w/ it? Is it because it makes some people too uncomfortable to think about it?

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/07/20/486785422/episode-713-paying-for-the-crime

I also think...fixing policing helps everyone. Building high trust and confidence in this institution can only be a good thing for the country. Demanding high standards and accountability is a win win win for everyone. And focusing on best practices in criminal justice (in a country that jails such a substantial proportion of its citizenry) can raise the quality of life for everyone.

We hear over and over again that most cops are well trained and good people. Great, let's focus on the problem areas, let's see how to get rid of those bad apples who are spoiling the barrel, and let's look to jurisdictions that are doing a better job of not killing people to see what they're up to.

Carol it seems people would rather concentrate on keeping those party lines divided.

There has to be a place somewhere in the middle to meet for solutions.

Tibb, I never said it wasn't an issue worth protesting. Quit twisting my words to suit your meanings.

Interesting essay that fits this thread, written and shared by Georgia McBride on Facebook.... (It's long)

" I'm angry and hurt today. I've read some of your posts on my feed in recent weeks. Said nothing. Felt the sting of your words, but said nothing.

Long post to follow. Please forgive typos. Feel free to share. My posts are set to "public."

Today, I will speak. I will speak because some athletes not standing for our flag doesn't affect you. Sure. It might anger you, but it does not affect the quality of your life.

But every time a black person is gunned down and the video is played over and over on national and international TV, it affects me. It affects my kids and my family. And we're not criminals. We aren't walking down the street wearing hoodies and carrying Skittles and Iced Tea. You know, like a criminal who deserves to be killed. And when YOU defend that action, it affects me. It affects all of us.

And you know what else? It affects my husband. It makes his job a lot less safe and it makes him a target of additional violence and hatred.

If you want to "unfriend" me, go right ahead. If you want to label me, I assure you, I have been called worse than anything you can fathom. I have been treated BY COPS in the most disrespectful and blatantly racist ways. I don't speak about it in public to protect my husband. One day, I will, to protect my children.

If you don't get that we have a problem in this country with the way blacks and whites are treated, you and I aren't really friends to begin with.

It isn't a difference of opinion. We don't "disagree." It is a fundamental underlying point of view that sets you above me in a position to determine whether blacks have a legitimate right to be heard on their grievances and have those grievances addressed. And because those grievances don't directly affect you, you dismiss them and employ the same tactics as those who victim shame women who are sexually assaulted, raped and beaten.

Ryan Locthe went to represent the United States to the world in another country. He committed a crime, lied about it and fled prosecution. This is a true disgrace to our country. The Constitution doesn't protect his right to commit crimes in other countries or flee responsibility for them. I never once saw anyone call him a criminal, anti-American or refer to his race when referencing the crime. No real outrage except to dismiss him as dumb, a tool, a jerk.

Yet, more people are outraged that an American football player who represents his team, not the United States, refuses to stand for the national anthem. More people are concerned that Gabby Douglas didn't place a hand over her heart during the anthem than they were about Ryan Locthe's criminal behavior. Several other athletes (white) never covered their hearts during the anthem and crickets. No outrage. None from the Internet patriots. No posts about how lucky they were to be chosen to represent the country and how they failed to show gratitude.

Fast forward.

All ppl posting negative comments re Colin Kaepernick, meet Georgia McBride. Let me address what I've seen you call the man "and others like him."

I'm not a spoiled millionaire athlete.

I'm not "ignorant."

I don't hate cops.

I don't hate America.

I'm not leaving America - tho nice try.

I stand for the anthem.

I'm not "brainwashed" by Black Lives Matter.

My mother does not have 20 kids by 10 different men.

My father never abandoned us.

I am not on welfare. Don't know anyone who is.

I am not on drugs. Don't know anyone who is.

I'm not racist. No really. I'm not. 95% of my friends are white. ;-)

I come from a family of Ivy-League and City and State college-educated people.

My husband is a cop as was his father and uncle.

My brother was a cop.

My father was in the military.

My cousins are in the military.

I was never a latch-key kid.

I don't know anyone in a gang.

My cousin is a politician.

I have never lived in the "projects."

I have teachers, nurses, businessmen, former FDNY in my immediate and extended family.

So what will you call me? How will you disparage me? My kids? My family? My friends? How will you discredit me? How will use my skin color and background to prove I'm wrong and uninformed?

How will you convince the world that I am brainwashed by Black Lives Matter? How will write me off as a gang-banging, welfare-loving, no-father-in-the-house-having, Black Lives Matter racist terrorist?

I owe my entire life to protests - both peaceful and violent. To civil disobedience, and acts of courage and defiance that seem inappropriate or unAmerican and at the time, were illegal.

Neither laws nor minds nor hearts are changed by silence and compliance. Think about that.

Maybe it is disrespectful to kneel during the national anthem, but the Constitution protects that right same as it does for civilian gun ownership, which you all know I am fervently against.

Back to protests.

Were it not for brave protests like this one, my life and that of my family would be vastly different. I ask you to think about that next time you label something a "joke" or "disgusting" or "wrong" or post disparaging memes and comments about a few young men doing what they can to change the lives of many and who are giving a voice to those without one.

I ask you NOT to judge them on what YOU feel they should be doing, but rather what they are doing.

Would you risk your job, future income, personal safety and that of your family and friends to bring attention to injustice in this country? How do you not realize that this is what they're doing?

Should I have to risk my job, my home, my life just to have the same rights afforded to you? Just to be able to have my kids walk down the street in their own neighborhood without being suspected of being a criminal or worse, shot to death?

All those people saying he is disrespecting the military - think about this. This is HIS way of fighting. He has no protection. No training. Few people on his side. He is fighting here, in the United States, as people have threatened to kill him and his family. People burn his jersey on YouTube, football fans are filled with so much hatred that they are vowing never to watch football again in order to bankrupt the NFL.

Why? Because a few black men kneeled or sat during the national anthem. These people are more concerned with this than WHY the men did what they did.

Think about how YOUR comments and YOUR actions impact those around you. Think about how the memes which started out as calling him anti-American have now have turned blatantly racist. THINK ABOUT THAT. Think about how your lack of concern for the people he is speaking out for reflects on you.

Think about all the smart white people telling the not-too-smart black people how to solve problems in "the black community" as if they have any clue at all? And the kicker? Posting the one or two black people who share your POV as proof that the millions of other blacks and whites are actually wrong. Please stop. PLEASE STOP.

You stand for the national anthem at sporting events. Big deal. I'm guessing you don't when you're out to eat and a game is on. Or when you're watching the game at home. Nope. Only when people can see you and judge you for how patriotic they think you are.

If it weren't for people calling bullshit on this country, our kids wouldn't be in school together. I wouldn't have my own business. My husband would not be allowed to be a cop. I would not have been allowed to marry my husband. It would've been illegal for me to have both my kids. As a woman I would not have been allowed to have credit in my own name or to have property such as a house or car in my own name. We would not have equal pay for equal work. I wouldn't be able to live in the neighborhood that I currently live in. Local friends, we would not have a female Chief of Police.

I reprimand and punish my kids because I love them. To teach them that what they did was wrong so they won't do it again. Does this mean I hate my kids? I'm anti-children?

If my spouse does something to hurt me and I tell him about it - I ask him to change - it isn't because I don't love him.

If someone has an issue with a teacher or a doctor - do they hate teachers and doctors? Are they anti-education and anti-medical science?

If someone has an issue with a cop's behavior, this makes him anti-cop? Un-American? Oh wait.

We need to get right in this country. We need to recognize the problems we have and address them, no matter how painful. No matter if they don't affect us.

Feel free to speak out against an athlete not standing for the national anthem because yeah - thats the change we need. All will be right in this county once NFL players return to showing respect for the national anthem. That's sarcasm."

Justerrilynn, you've repeated that the pastor's remarks about lining up people to shoot were somehow wrong or controversial because of the venue (can't remember the exact words to quote). Those remarks are arrogant and atrocious. Period.

Another point I would like to make; the people that are offended by someone not standing for the national anthem, should stop saying that it "disrespects our veterans and military" as if that is a hard fact. Just as many veterans and military people feel strongly that they served to protect our right to peaceful demonstration. I know many personally. They DO feel disrespected by an arrogant loudmouth wanting to line up people to shoot for exercising their rights.

Maddielee, that was awesome.

Yes it was, maddielee. Perfectly worded.

I'll take it one step further and say that nobody is required to respect an organization - even the military - if one disagrees with the tenets, practices, and operations of such organization. That is a right too.

Not standing up for an anthem or pledging allegiance to a flag or issuing blanket "respect" to an organization does not in any way correlate to the productivity, effectiveness, usefulness, positive value, or inherent worth of a human being. To think otherwise is ridiculously myopic.

Peaceful protest and disagreement is patriotism. This thread makes me fully aware that we are indeed fortunate. There are many places where we could be prosecuted and persecuted for daring to disagree. That's why what the pastor said is vile. There are places where that could happen. It's not a joke. It's hateful to say and despicably hypocritical from a Christian leader.

And I'm grateful that I can enjoy a discussion of this nature with such a diverse group. I'm protected from sickening thugs like that pastor and the people that cheered. It renews my commitment to speak out and peacefully protest injustice.

Edited to change awkward wording.

Well as usual I'm odd man out on most people's views here. I don't fit the Christain view. I don't like football but don't like it used for a political or other outlet. Although, I do agree about bad police getting severely punished...I think just doing that without looking at the whole picture is putting a bandaid on the problem.

Don't know who else here watches The Daily show, but Trevor Noah weighed in & it was pretty great - "What do you think you are, a role model?"...

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/3viy0w/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-colin-kaepernick-s-national-anthem-protest

Love Trevor! I was determined to snub him because I was mourning Jon Stewart. But I can't, he's just too cute and funny.

Interesting and thoughtful commentary from Chris Long.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4795724/patriots-de-chris-long-shares-perspective-on-colin-kaepernicks-protest

"But I'll make it pretty clear: I support my peers in exercising their right to protest. This is a wonderful country, and I think everyone agrees on that, but there are things in our country that can improve. I don't think that by acknowledging as a white male that America isn't the same for me, maybe, as it is for everybody, the same great place, that we're complicit in the problem or that we're saying America isn't a great place."

...

"I play in a league that's 70 percent black and my peers, guys I come to work with, guys I respect who are very socially aware and are intellectual guys, if they identify something that they think is worth putting their reputations on the line, creating controversy, I'm going to listen to those guys."

I think that it is despicable. The reason that they have the careers that they do is because they live in the USA. We're the ones who go to their games, etc. it's disrespectful to all of us. We should not support athletes who have no respect for us or our way of life. They can go to another country. Wonder what they would get there!

Instead of criticizing and arguing over "what" they did, how about asking and listening to "why" they did it. Especially Kapernick. I am not a black male so I don't have the inner emotional ability to understand the "why" and never will. I might have the intellectual ability to analyze their reasoning but that's all.

Many use whatever platform that they have worked for or been given to protest or support causes that matter to them or that they feel should matter to all.

Actions or conversations surrounding racism, homophobia, sexism, etc that get shut down because someone doesn't like the conversation - now that's despicable, and disrespectful.

Who is "us" and "our way of life"? Isn't the first amendment part of "your way of life?" Haven't black people been in the USA just as long as white people? Colin Kaepernick was born and grew up in Wisconsin.

That's perfect, robo! I'm saving that one.

K Sissy - I'm part of "all of us" and it is not disrespectful to me. "My way of life" fully supports his right to protest. And yours. But you don't speak for "all of us" and "our way of life". Only you and yours.

I suspect perception may skew some people's reality. IOW, attitude & opinion may depend on where you live as much as anything else. Here in FL, it's pretty much a given that if you're black, you're treated much differently than if you're white. Here's 1 article from our local paper to prove it:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/how-riding-your-bike-can-land-you-in-trouble-with-the-cops---if-youre-black/2225966

I'm sure if someone could figure out a way to write a ticket for not standing for the national anthem, they would. I haven't stood for the national anthem for 40 years, but rarely ever attend any type of event where it's played. I doubt they'd haul my gray haired, white fanny into court over it.

Oh, but Oly, aren't you greatly diminished by the scathing looks of disapproval that you receive from those around you?

(Kidding, of course.)

I refuse to recite the pledge of allegiance, and have been astounded that it's still done in the adult world. The last time it was expected was at a city council meeting. I'm not pledging my allegiance to any piece of cloth or the country that it represents. (Believe it or not, I'm still quite capable of loving myriad things about my country and a number of others.)

"Collin Kaepernick and his pig socks mocks those brave brave NYPD and NYFD heros. Makes me sick, really."

OMG! Why in the world would you assume that his SOCKS are mocking the NYPD and NYFD?

I wonder how many of those that think he is being "unpatriotic" and "disrespecting" thought the same about Bundy and his crew that held a government facility with guns. Where you "sick"? Any efforts to get them fired or loose sponsorships?

Did your approval of their method of protest have something to do with their skin color?

This was previously posted and is extremely appropriate:

BTW. The majority of professional athletes are college graduates and not in the category of "idiots".

And for those who will come back and say "it's not about black or white", you better believe it is.

This has nothing to do with a person's race for me. I don't care about that! It's just about honoring the country that these athletes who don't say the pledge of alliegance live in, and Americans who had made these athletes rich and famous. It's about common decency.

The next time you are at a sports event where the national anthem is played, take a look at the people around you in the stands. Notice whose texting, talking, taking selfies, not removing hats, etc. That's disrespectful, but I don't see anyone yelling about that. No one has complained about the photographers moving about on the sidelines taking pictures or the crew working the game for the network.

Oy vey

Like Chicago doesn't have some bigger issues to deal with first. SMH

Topspin

After weeks of holding their tongues, Chicago aldermen may finally
have a chance to stake out some moral turf in the nationwide controversy
that San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick ignited over
protests during the national anthem.

Amid the dozens of ordinances
introduced by Chicago residents to the City Council on Wednesday for
things like damages to vehicles that hit potholes came a proposal from
former Bridgeport Ald. James Balcer, a Marine veteran, to dictate proper decorum during the anthem in Chicago.

Balcer’s
proposal calls for a section to be added to the municipal code
explaining how people should act when the “Star-Spangled Banner” gets
played. The language does not specify where the rules of anthem decorum
would apply — government functions or professional sporting
events or school assemblies, perhaps? Nor does it include penalties or
explain how the standards should be enforced.

According to
Balcer’s proposal, members of the military in uniform should salute
toward the American flag during the anthem, and those out of uniform are
welcome to do so as well. Nonmilitary people should face the flag with
their hand over their hearts, and men should remove their hats. When
there’s no flag, everyone should follow the same rules while facing the
source of the music.

The measure was sent to committee Wednesday,
and it’s not clear what its chances are of getting a hearing, let alone
becoming law. (John Byrne)

bold added

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-rahm-emanuel-city-council-meeting-20160914-story.html

For crying out loud. Why doesn't Balcer just go all the way and have people do this?

ETA: What in the world would be the point of adding yet another ordinance that could not in any way be enforced? There can be no penalty invoked because one cannot legislate "respect." Some of the idiots who are in positions of leadership in this country are absurdly comedic.

K sissy, there are so many more ways to honor this country than demanding a mindless action. To me, honoring this country is striving for equality, protesting wrongs, supporting others who have been wronged and working to change the things that I believe need changing. If common decency were at play in this country it would mean that these athletes would have nothing to protest.

And you can protest with your wallet. Stop watching and paying for the obscene salaries pro athletes demand.

madddielee, I'm PLENTY put out by the criminal actions of Ryan Locthe. Put out by his disrespect for the country he represented at the Olympics. I'm also disappointed with DWTS decision to honor his contract in light of his criminal actions. And for him to say his feelings were hurt by the protesters...oh boo hoo! Give me a break!