Hi

How close are you to Venice FL? We are buying a vacation home there soon, HOPFULLY!

Venice is about two hours by car south and west of me. I'm sure you know it is on the West coast. It should be excellent for butterflies, but not for hummingbirds.

Yes my great grandparents had a few houses there. I love Florida!

What you are describing is exactly what's happening in my garden too! I am in Saint Petersburg and on a daily basis, I see giant swallowtail, polydamas, sulfurs, zebra long wings, monarchs, gulf fritillaries, black swallowtails and spicebush swallowtails. What I have seen mostly this year compares to last year is the zebra long wings, I get like 3 to 4 of them every single day fluttering throughout my garden which is a sight to see! I am hoping for hummingbirds this year. I saw ONE zoom by on mother's Day checking out my fire bush shrub plant and then it never came back :(. I have a lot of hummingbird food plants all over my garden. Maybe this fall? Around 11-11:30 is where I see the most activity going on. Best time to sit back and watch the life comes alive along with many different birds as well.

Angel, in the St. Pete area they see hummers mostly in the winter months, although some have been reported in the summer. There is a vague, wandering line that goes through Central Florida that marks the hummingbird migration. Areas south of that line see hummingbirds primarily in the winter months; those north of it see them primarily with the migration of Ruby-throated hummingbirds that begins the first part of March and ends sometime in early October.

Some of us also see Rufous and Black-Chinned hummers during the late fall, winter and early spring. Personally, I have only seen Ruby-throateds the last two years. Now I am seeing females and adolescents.

Firebush (Hamelia Patens) is an excellent hummer plant for those of us in Central and Southern Florida. I have many that are now over ten feet tall and in full bloom. The Zebra Longwings and the Sulfurs love them also.

I am still seeing many butterflies. It's a great year for them.

Tom, my best red bay has died, as have many along the road I live on. I was dreading this, and now it's happened. The smaller red bays are healthy, and I found a palamedes cat on one the other day, now I'm raising it myself. You should see my once beautiful tree - it's covered with brown leaves! :(

I'm having a pretty good butterfly year here, too. I just wish I had those zebra longwings and white peacocks!

Which reminds me, this past spring I saw a lot of large white butterflies - one at the bank, one at my house, two near Walmart. Then I read in the Biloxi/Gulfport paper that an ?irruption of Florida whites had come our way! I had thought that's what they were, being bigger than cabbage whites, which are rare here, but it confirmed it. I wish we had those all the time, too!

Sherry

Oh, man, Sherry, I'm so sorry to hear about your bay trees. They have really suffered from the infestation of the ambrosia beetle (Xyleborus glabratus). Apparently, once a tree becomes minimally infected it attracts more beetles who then attract more beetles. I had a large one that died. It has left some small ones that are growing, but I don't have much hope for them in the long term.

I now have a tree that I think is a Camphor tree that Spicebush Swallowtails lay their eggs on. I'm developing a system with this tree. I cut it down to about waist-high in early December or so and then-it grows back in the spring and summer with lots of new growth. Its roots are getting more extensive, so the growth is quite abundant and chopping it down every December is going to be more of a chore, but for now it's working. I'm seeing Spicebush every day now and they are beautiful.

Tom, examine this :

I doubt that I will be able to see the difference. It is a subspecies of what kind of butterfly. Are they Spicebush? Palamedes?

It is a subspecies of the Spicebush, it is quite rare and possibly endangered.

Tom, have you ever found a palamedes swallowtail caterpillar on your camphor tree? Camphor tree grows here, but it doesn't get too big, because if we have a big freeze, which we have about every 10 years, the top gets killed back, then it re-sprouts from the roots and starts over. People in Florida have always reported on this forum that spicebush swallowtails use it, but I've never found a caterpillar on it here - the spicebush swallowtails all use sassafras. They might use it, though, if sassafras weren't available. If all the red bays die, I thought they might use camphor tree, at least I hope so.

Sherry

I haven't seen any cats on the camphor tree. I see the spicebush depositing eggs but cannot find cats. I looked this morning and nada that I could see. I did just look again and saw a number of leaves that were curled in on themselves, so I guess there might be cats there. I should mention that I live in Central Florida in Zone 9b.

> Posted by MissSherry : "if sassafras weren't available. If all the
red bays die,
> I thought they might use camphor"

Yes, a certainty in either /both of those situations.

I do not know about the other Floridians' reports that you mention,
but my report (this is it) is of my observation.

For the benefit of readers of this thread at any time,
a geographical re-orientation is in order. It is I, east of Tom,,
who posted the information about P. t. fakahatcheensis.
Sherry is to the west of us, and very distant.

The camphor tree is listed as an invasive in Florida--"it is listed as a Category I species on the Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council (FLEPPC) list of invasive species." As you noted above, Sherry, it doesn't do as well in colder climates and I doubt that it is invasive north of Florida. Even here, I would guess that it would be much more invasive the further south one goes.

There must be different types of camphor trees or bushes. I remember crushing the leaves on one years ago and the camphor smell was powerful. I can smell just a little camphor on the two trees or bushes that I have.

Camphor tree is definitely not invasive here, Tom, maybe because it doesn't get big enough for seeds to mature on it.

Four - I've been posting on the Butterfly Forum since about ?2000 or so, and there used to be a LOT of Floridians who posted here. They mentioned camphor tree a lot and how spicebush swallowtails laid eggs on it. As I recall, they said the cats fared well on it. This problem with laurel wilt on red bay has made me want to find a substitute host. Palamedes swallowtails have, until now, been the most common swallowtail here, very common. By the way, I'm not TOO distant from Florida. I live in the country in southeast MS between Hattiesburg and Gulfport.

There was supposed to be a subspecies of spicebush swallowtail that occurs here, can't remember the scientific name, but I raised one years ago that looked distinctly different from the others. She was VERY bland looking, not much color at all. I made her picture, so I'll see if I can post it.

Sherry

Hello, I have a huge Camphor tree in my backyard where my huge garden is at. At first I saw spicebush butterflies fluttering around sucking something out of the grasses which I couldn't figure out why. Then I saw a caterpillar making a chryalis on my window. I was like ok. There's a host plant. WHere is it? Because I have been looking for sassafra plants for them. Then I started researching and found out that a camphor tree is a host plant for them as well and I didnt know that the big tree in my backyard is a camphor tree until I decided to look into that tree and it is indeed a camphor tree! I have not see any caterpillars on it. It stands 20-25 feet tall. I do have some sprouts that is coming up at 4 to 5 feet high so I am hoping to see some cats but I doubt it. I also saw a hummingbird in my garden this morning checking out the red porterweed and the firebush. I was so excited but I couldn't get a picture. It left before I could snap a picture. This is the second time I've seen it. I am hoping it will become a regular vistor. One can only hope.

It's difficult to spot the cats on a Camphor tree of any size, in my opinion. The cats are likely to be in rolled up leaves that are pretty high up in the tree. The butterflies and the caterpillars prefer the new, fresh leaves that are frequently not close to the ground.

I have had red porterweed in the past and the hummers love it, but I found it to be very cold sensitive--anything near freezing and it was gone. Right now the best plant I have for both hummers and butterflies is the large purple porterweed (Stachytarpheta frantzi}. I have many of these plants in different places around the house. I also have many very large firebushes (Hamelia Patens) which the hummers really like, as do some of the butterflies. A problem with the Hamelia Patens, however, is that is a thug. It keeps spreading and is very difficult to dig out.

Yeah we don't get freezing here. Rarely. Even if it does I cover sensitive plants. So far so good. As for the purple porterweed. You said you have large ones. I have 5 big plants of these all scattered around the garden they can get to 5 feet tall I trim them down so they don't topple over. I have dwarf firebush in front as shrubs. And one large one in the garden. Got it last year as 1 foot tall. One year later, it stands 7 feet tall. I just got lion tail plant and planted that in the garden as well. I also have firespike plants and powderpuff ones as well as bottlebrush shrubs.

I read a report that explored the feasibillity of camphor's becoming future host
of Palamedes in projected /expected disappearance of its actual hosts.
There is the egg-laying factor, involving both whether Palamedes even will
begin to do it, and competition with P. troilus adults. Unknown.
There is the overall larval competition for the broad resource. Unknown.
There is the predation factor, unknown, one element in which is that
Palamedes does not fold leaves.
In labs, even though some larvae did well, insignificantly few of them survived
to adulthood (no information about condition of those adults).

That last point is extremely useful information for anyone who gets
Plamedes eggs or larvae, e.g. on a resprouting redbay or sassafras.
You can stretch your food supply by incorporating some camphor leaves
into the regimen.

What city/county are you in Angelimperfect? It sounds like you are just a bit south of me. I'm in Lake County about twenty miles directly West of Orlando.

You have a bunch of excellent hummingbird plants. You should be getting some regular visits. I had the lions tail (Leonotis leonurus) once, but it got too big and wanted to spread too much. It got some visits by the hummers, but not as much as other plants. I dug it out--took me a while, because the roots had spread.

Some of my large purple porterweeds are over ten feet tall and wide. I just let them rip. Same for the firebush--some of mine are over 15ft high and are blooming profusely now. As I'm sure you are aware the term "dwarf firebush" is a misnomer. They get very tall and wide--maybe not quite as tall as the so-called "native," but very close.

A plant I'm excited about now is a hot-pink penta. It supposedly gets as tall as the large red pentas and has as much or more nectar. I could only find them in one nursery in California. I purchased three and they are now growing to the point that I can take some cuttings. The large red pentas have been the most productive nectar plant for butterflies over the years in my garden. The hummers like them, but they like other plants more. I keep trying to motivate myself to start more cuttings, but so far the heat has defeated me.

I live in Pinellas County in Saint Petersburg, Fl. I just saw two hummingbirds today. Yay me. As for the lion tail plant, Ouchie. I got it cause it looks pretty. Guess we will see :/ I have around 1000 sq feet butterfly/hummingbird garden in my backyard.

Four - that study doesn't make camphor tree sound very promising. I planted several different types of Asian spicebushes a few years ago, knowing that the red bay wilt would be spreading westward. Only two have thrived, and I haven't found any caterpillars on either of them. Maybe I'll find some more to order and try.

By the way, I found another big, dead red bay this afternoon in my woods. :(

About the only thing I can hope for is that the roots of the red bays don't die, and they resprout at the bottom. There's a small red bay on my property that was covered in ugly galls, and it was partly dead. So, I cut it down to the ground, and it has resprouted - I'm using the nice, new leaves to feed the one palamedes caterpillar I'm raising.

If you ever hear of any good substitutes, please e-mail me. I'll definitely want to plant anything that thrives that they will lay eggs on and support the caterpillars successfully through their caterpillar life.

Sherry

Cut then burn Lauraceae that are killed by the fungus.

There are a lot of Palamedes in Lake Louisa State Park, which is about five miles from my house. I see them when I walk on a nature trail. I don't know what they use as a larval source. Is there a swamp bay? It's swampy in the area where I walk.

Yes, species palustris, a host of both of these swallowtails.
Also vulnerable. It could be that it is lower in the beetle's order of preference.

I went to Tosahatchee Wetlands Management Area two years ago
when I learned that there were Palamedes in there. It was a thrill.
The Wildlife Manager said that there were no Red Bays nor Sassafras.
He had no interest in the matter of what was supporting the Palamedes.

We might guess that there were Swamp Bays in there.
The only other possibility is species humilis, Silk Bay aka Scrub Bay.

Regarding the camphor :
At least for Lauraceae, that beetle is the only known vector of that fungus.
If in fact it is the only, then camphor's continued safety will depend entirely on
the beetle's continued bypassing of camphor; because
camphor IS susceptible to the fungus, proven in lab experimentation.

It wish that an experimenter would test whether the beetle even likes camphor.

Yes, I think it would be the Swamp Bay that is abundant in the park, although it might be that there are Red Bays there also.

Sherry, I have several small Red Bays that have grown after the demise of the large one. I'm wondering if the very young plants aren't as attractive as the larger ones. The beetles prefer the bark of the tree at first, no? Maybe if there is less bark...

I have seen no articles that suggest that the Camphor trees have been affected by the beetles, Four. Hopefully they will continue to be good host plants for the Spicebush. I believe that there are several types of Camphor trees or bushes. As I stated before, mine have a slight fragrance when crushed, but I have experienced others with a more powerful scent.

Ten minutes ago :

> Posted by MissSherry : "red bay on my property that was
> covered in ugly galls, and it was partly dead. So, I cut it down"

Partial deadness, if caused by the fungus, would be a good reason to cut it.
Those galls, however, should not influence a decision.
In a document by UFL entomology dept regarding galls on Red Bay,
there is the statement :
"The galls cause absolutely no harm and no steps should be taken" .

Yes, red bay galls are caused by yet another insect, Tom. This little 'tree' could hardly even be described as a tree, and I'm using the nice new leaves to feed my one and only palamedes cat.

Sherry