Martha -

Did someone already try nail polish in various colors for marking specific petals?

That would be me. And, no - it is not a good idea, because it kills the petal, and sometimes the seed, though not always. I would imagine a paint pen might do the same, though the chemicals are going to be less potent than nail polish, I would think. Magic markers are partially successful, but you'd be surprised how much they do fade, and disappear into the browning of the petal.

I have not tried latex paint, but I have to admit that I haven't been enthusiastic about carrying yet another thing with me into the garden. Maybe there are latex marking pens; I'll have to look into it.

As for marking the blooms themselves, I've gone back to the method I used last year - different colored embroidery thread or combination of threads. I noticed Joseph says he does this also. My method is simply assigning a different color code to each flower as I use it for a pollinator; this color thread (or threads) gets attached to my female recipient. Then I can see at a glance which pollinator was used for a specific bloom.

It's not a perfect system; I carry three separate yellow pads with me:

(1) my map showing which flowers are planted in which row. I label them accordingly - Row 1 #1, R2 #1, R22 #4, etc.

(2) the list of each flower with a brief of it's info - for example, R1 #1 [Lotus self] orangey-pink cactus/lotus 27" - 4" bloom

(3) the list of my crosses with date and the color code, plus a list of the color codes themselves - red being the color for the R1 #1, while R16 #4 has a code of green, pink, blue. (I've ordered a fresh 105 pack of threads which will give me more colors - woo hoo!)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

With regard to naming that zinnia, I plan to look for an existing wildflower or cultivated flower that is similar in flower form, and use its name as the basis for naming that zinnia form. I haven't looked much so far, although some of the Centaurea species are under consideration. I really like some of the flower forms in that link, and some of them suggest new flower forms that I might try to achieve in zinnias. Always forming new goals.

One of my current largish zinnias has some interesting coloration.

ZM

Wow! Double wow!! That is a beautiful bloom, and displaying a picotee effect which is something I very much like. Hope to see more of this line. I think I have cooled off enough to brave going outside again. Later-

A

Hi Alex,

We had a rain storm last night. It cooled things off and gave the plants a drink, although the accumulation wasn't much, a little over a quarter of an inch. There were some high winds and several of my zinnias are laying over. I may stake them. I haven't seen a lot of scabious blooms this season, but this is one:

Lots to do in the garden. More later.

ZM

ZM - that is an unusual scabious looking bloom. It seems to share that metallic sheen with the other you posted, or is that just a trick of the light?

I didn't plant any of my scabious hybrids this season, but I have one orange which is leaning in that direction. Here's what it looked like as of 7-15-16:

I posted that pic earlier, saying I wondered what it would turn into. Well, it's gotten more interesting. I'll take another pic today. It's background doesn't have scabious, though. It's a commercial Royal Orange x a cactus/whirligig hybrid of mine. I like it and will be using it for a breeder. More later -

Alex

Hi Alex,

" It's a commercial Royal Orange x a cactus/whirligig hybrid of mine. I like it and will be using it for a breeder. "

I can't wait to see a current picture of it.

" I didn't plant any of my scabious hybrids this season "

I planted very few scabious hybrids this year, and I am sorry I didn't plant more. Maybe in the next day or two I will belatedly plant a few scabious zinnias in some spaces where zinnias didn't come up or something happened to them. My current garden is now at its ultimate size, so I won't be making any more expansions to it. Its present expanded size is all that I have time to deal with.

" ...that is an unusual scabious looking bloom. It seems to share that
metallic sheen with the other you posted, or is that just a trick of the
light? "

It is not a trick of the light -- it does have a sheen, although it is more pearlescent than metallic. I have seen that in other zinnias in the past. You may remember this scabious hybrid. It had a sheen.

ZM

I waited too long to take a photo of my orange before it lost it's scabious-look. But it was a 1st bloom and we already had that discussion about 1st blooms not always being totally representative of the plant, so I'll post another pic later. Here's what it looked like yesterday (15 days after the other photo) in a "past its prime" state:

But, back to zinnias. Yes, I remember all of those blooms you posted, and you're reminding me of why I wanted to get some scabious seed myself. Next season maybe I'll dig out my old seed packet and sow some more.

The metallic and pearlescent sheens are quite appealing. Wonder if it's a similar thing to what happens with some other plants: daylilies, begonias, etc that sometimes have a sparkle to the petals? Though zinnias don't typically have that more succulent kind of petal.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Which brings me to another point. Longevity of bloom is definitely a factor for me in this hybridizing gig. "

Zinnia blooms do last longer than roses, but I suspect that some zinnia blooms are much more lasting than others. I haven't really been keeping track of that. But the life of a zinnia bloom is measured in weeks rather than days. With respect to roses, do you happen to have any Knockout roses? I am not a "rose person", but I know Knockouts require less maintenance than typical roses.

" The metallic and pearlescent sheens are quite appealing. Wonder if it's a
similar thing to what happens with some other plants: dayliiies,
begonias, etc that sometimes have a sparkle to the petals? "

I wonder also. That picoteed specimen above is the first non-scabious bloom I have seen with a noticeable sheen. So apparently scabious genes aren't a prerequisite to a sheen in zinnias. Presumably it is genetic, and possibly can occur in varying degrees. I intend to watch for the effect in future zinnias. A zinnia with sparkle would be nice.

From time to time I have mentioned my preference for widely spaced petals in zinnia blooms, to give more "air" and a "see through" quality to the bloom. This current Razzle Dazzle bloom does have that "see through" look.

We got a series of showers early this morning, but I think they have quit now, so I will be returning to my garden. Hopefully the wind damage is minimal this time. The previous rainstorm, a couple of days ago, did significant wind damage to my zinnias and I have been using stakes and Velcro tape to prop up some of my breeders. More later. Kansas rains, good. Kansas winds, bad.

ZM

ZM - Kansas rains, good. Kansas winds, bad.

Yeah, tell me about it. We get wind speeds on our little hill that remind me at times of living through hurricane season down in south TX. Just a few days ago I was in the garden taking advantage of the cool overcast conditions to do some crosses. Rain was predicted for later, but following the info Joseph supplied about the pollination possibly requiring only 30 minutes to set, I felt I could take the chance.

I'd been out there for less than half an hour when all of a sudden, and I do mean all of a SUDDEN, a great wind came up, rattling the trees (and me). I could hear thunder in the distance, and decided it was prudent to get the heck outta there pronto. I made it into the house before the rain came. Batten down the hatches, matie.

Going to be nice today; going out in just a minute, as soon as I can separate myself from The Machine.

- Alex

Hello everyone,

It's been a long time since I posted here; in fact, I want to catch up and read the threads that I have missed! This is a favorite time of the year for me, and although I really don't have anything much different than what I've shown before, just wanted you to know that the tradition of Extreme Rolls continues, lol!

rosealice55, formerly jackier_gardener

Welcome back rosealice,

That is a clever name change. I like it. I am so glad you are back. Your Extreme Roll zinnias continue to amaze. And I see that they still appear in several interesting variations. Your Extreme Roll flower forms remind me of some of my tubular petaled zinnias, but your Extreme Rolls have their own special look, and have the advantage of accessible stigmas. I look forward to your continued participation here, and more pictures of your zinnias.

ZM

Rosealice - great to see you and your XTR zinnias again! This has been a fun year here for me, if a little on the HOT side. But, hey - not really complaining. It will be winter all too soon; hot is better.

Hope I'll have some pics to show soon of my own latest developments. Please continue to post updates of yours. I love photos. :)

- Alex

ZM - here's a question and/or point to ponder. I've been gathering green seed for a while now this season on individual blooms, but just yesterday started cutting entire heads to allow the plants to put their energies into new blooms. When I started going through the blooms, gleaning the dry and the green seeds which had set, I was impressed with how much seed had been pollinated on some of my super-multi-petaled dahlia-type flowers. My memory of the past 2 years was that with these specimens that had so many petals, there would be a high percentage of non-fertile seed. These guys had green seeds galore!

So the question is: as I know you and much of the rest of the nation are experiencing higher temps and humidity this summer, do you think this is what is enabling pollination? While I think I can say that my pollinating technique has improved, I can't claim credit for the higher percentage, because I do focus very specifically on individual petals when I'm transferring pollen, not just a blanket scattering of pollen throughout a bloom - don't often have that much pollen to work with, after all, at a given time. And I wouldn't say it was more hummingbirds, bees, and other insects - possibly have seen less of these even. But just wondering if there's something about that combination of heat and humidity which is aiding the growth of the pollen tubes?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" I can't claim credit for the higher percentage, because I do focus very
specifically on individual petals when I'm transferring pollen, not just
a blanket scattering of pollen throughout a bloom - don't often have
that much pollen to work with, after all, at a given time. ... But just wondering if there's
something about that combination of heat and humidity which is aiding
the growth of the pollen tubes? "

Very interesting. I haven't started harvesting green seeds yet, partially because I am a bit distracted by my battle against the weeds. So I don't know what my green seed yield is. I have noticed one thing that might be relevant. Some of my zinnias put out pollen florets that are under the newly emerging petals. I would actually have to look under new petals to see them. Also, when you are gathering green seeds, do you see quite a few pollen-floret seeds? They are relatively flat and usually don't have the "back bone" that most petal seeds have.

And, I think it is very likely that increased heat and humidity do favor the germination of the pollen grain on the stigma. Also, the process of seed fertilization in zinnias may involve several different mechanisms beyond bee pollination.

Rosealice suggested wind pollination of zinnias a few years ago, and I kind of "poo-pooed" that, by referring to the weight of zinnia pollen grains being much greater than traditionally wind pollinated plants. After all, zinnia pollen never gets mentioned in the weather reports of pollen allergens.

But I have since been mystified by unexpected high natural seed yields. And, in the case of my tubular petaled zinnias, by high seed yields of some tubular heads that I didn't "surgically" expose the stigmas on.

In the absence of bees, gravity can carry the pollen down from a pollen floret to stigmas below. And in the presence of wind, there can be micro wind currents within a zinnia head that could spread pollen within that bloom. So, on a small scale, a zinnia could be wind pollinated, not just within a single bloom, but from one bloom to another on the same plant, or possibly from bloom to bloom on adjacent plants.

My tubular petaled zinnias, like this one, pose a different pollination problem.

I will stay on the lookout for unexpectedly high seed yields when I start harvesting green seeds. And I probably should apologize to Rosealice about her suggestion of wind pollination of zinnias.

ZM

Hi Rosealice,

As per my previous message to Alex, I hereby belatedly apologize to you for poo-pooing your suggestion that zinnias could be wind pollinated. This reminds me of one of my Mother's favorite quotes from Shakespeare, in which Hamlet said to Horatio, " There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. " I think my Mother was trying to tell me something.

ZM

ZM -

"O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!"

OK, there's more to this story I must relate, which may or may not have bearing on the case. Yesterday, after I'd sent the first message, I was once again harvesting zinnia heads, and a little bee flew out from under the petals. Not just once but a couple of times, and a fly as well. Then I remembered that this had happened earlier when I was pollinating, though I didn't pay attention to it at the time, other than to be startled to have a little bee - a mason bee, maybe?, it was very small - fly out at me.

So what was it doing under the petals? And when I say under, I mean like buried inside the bloom. There are no discernible anthers to be collecting pollen from under there; there are hardly any anthers, period, that I can see on some of those mega-petaled dahlia-types. Nectar? Taking a little afternoon siesta during prime pollen-gathering time? I don't remember this ever happening before.

Thoughts?

- Alex

I am in awe. I've been a follower of ZM for years, even reviewing old installments over and over.

I am in love with Alex's and rosealice's zinnias, too. Those extreme rolls are fabulous.

I have a question for all of you.

I grow lots of zinnias in my gardens and in containers every year. I love to use them in flower arrangements. Have any of you tested the longevity of your wonderful hybrid crosses as a cut flower? What were the results?

Thank you so very much for your efforts......especially you, Zen.

Hi Alex,

I love that quote by Horatio from Hamlet. (I looked it up.) It really fits the situation.

" So what was it doing under the petals? "

Good question. My first guess would be "sleeping". But I have never seen a small bee sleeping on a zinnia, although I frequently see a bumble bee or carpenter bee sleeping in plain sight on a zinnia bloom. But, even if your small bee was just sleeping, it could have very well had some zinnia pollen in its body hairs, accidentally picked up from previous visits to zinnia blooms. As far as I know, all bee pollination is accidental, including pollination by honeybees. So that little bee of yours could have very well carried pollen "inside" that zinnia bloom, and it could have pollinated stigmas inside the bloom.

I think that pollination of zinnias by "unconventional" insect vectors is probable. I frequently see small ants in or on a zinnia bloom. I am a bit wary that the ant may be one of those ants that tend to aphids as "cows" that produce drops of sugary solution from organs on their abdomen. But frequently the ant is there to feed on zinnia nectar that is produced in the bloom. You may remember a few years ago when I found a "freak" zinnia bloom that was absolutely loaded with small ants, apparently feeding on an abnormal production of nectar by that bloom.

I also suspect other small insects as accidental pollen vectors, like thrips for example. I have seen thrips inside the tubes of my tubular petaled zinnias, and I have also seen small ants both enter and leave a tubular petal.

I really enjoy observing my zinnia patch, because it is a miniature ecosystem, full of tiny mysteries. Occasionally I will see a tiny flower spider, camouflaged by matching the color of the zinnia, waiting to pounce on some unsuspecting prey. And I wonder, what will visit that zinnia that is small enough for it to catch?

A zinnia bloom can be a virtual "clown car" of small creatures. All potential accidental pollinators.

ZM

Hi Dorie,

" Have any of you tested the longevity of your wonderful hybrid crosses as a cut flower? What were the results? "

I have not done such a test. My guess would be, and this is just a guess, that the composition of the solution in the vase is the most important factor. I rarely bring in zinnias for display in a vase, but I have had vase displays "go bad" when apparent bacterial rot of the stems occurs. The rot can produce a bad smell.

My early attempts to grow zinnias from cuttings ran into the same problem--bacterial attack of the cutting. By trial and error I solved that problem with a product called Physan 20. The trick was to find a happy medium concentration of Physan 20 that was not strong enough to kill the cutting but strong enough to kill the bacteria. I ran some experiments and found that one Tablespoon of Physan 20 per gallon was workable and, combined with rooting hormone and dilute nutrients, let me root zinnia cuttings with a high percentage of success in a sterile medium like Premier Pro-Mix BX. A similar solution, probably without the rooting hormone, might be effective as vase water for zinnias. Experimentation would be needed.

There are commercial products to incorporate in the water in the vase. And home remedies as well -- I seem to recall someone recommending adding Aspirin to the vase water.

But, as I mentioned, I think the composition of the vase water would be more of a controlling factor than the genetics of the zinnia cuttings. If I am wrong about this, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

ZM

Zen, I'm a serious flower arranger and have been for many years. I really wanted to know how your truly special tubular forms hold up, compared to the 'parent' zinnias. Just curious, is all.

Zinnias are an important inclusion in my arrangements, I use them in combination with other flowers, either from my gardens or from the florist.

By the way, I take several steps to help cut flowers last longer for me or a customer...the flowers are cut when young, the stem prepared properly by recutting and stripping of foliage, and the water solution can be one of any number of products, home or commercial, but nothing out of the ordinary is required.

Hello,

I've tried to get
caught up on the thread here..what a diverse, but interesting
conversation!

ZM, your tubular zinnias are still so fascinating! You were
saying how sometimes they seem as if they are being pollinated on their own. I
wonder if you could select for lines that do produce seeds without your help?
Then, the only time your work would be necessary would be when you are
hybridizing. This is given that there are no other factors like insects
at play. Do any of these plants give rise to seeds indoors without you
pollinating? What percent of offspring from the tubulars have the tubular trait?

My Extreme Rolls must result from a number of genes in the
hybrid condition. I think it is a complex form of inheritance although I
always get some offspring with the trait, whether the plants are selfed or
whether they are crossed with related plants that don't show the trait.

Your Razzle Dazzles are nice, too, It seems that they all
have toothy petals. I especially like the yellow one that resulted from a cross
between a Razzle Dazzle and a standard form of flower. Did you do that to
get a larger flower?

Alex, I love your patio and all the flowers you have there!
All different kinds! I see you have some shorter zinnias there.
I also see you seem to like red flowers in your crosses here.. What are
you hoping to get from your crosses? Maybe you are experimental like me
and looking for something new but unexpected.

Joseph, I noticed that you are thinking of crossing tetraploid
forms of haageana and elegans zinnias. What about crossing the diploid
forms? I have thought that possibly Whirligig zinnias might be good to cross
with the haageanas because there may be comparatively more homology between the
chromosomes.

Some of my Extreme Roll relatives show more uniformity in their
petals.

I like the "Medusa" form of cactus zinnias!

I have one zinnia that has picotee-type petals.

Rosealice

Have to get up early to weed and collect seeds...it is steamy here!

Rhizo, I'm sure you already do this, but with ordinary zinnias, adding a few drops of Clorox to the vase of water helps keep the water clear...zinnias have hairy stems and can harbor lots of bacteria and more..

Rosealice

Rosealice,

I decided to try working at the tetraploid level just out of curiosity. This forum shows the incredible things that can be done with diploids, I am curious to see what I might find at the tetraploid level.

I LOVE that Medusa form cactus! Absolutely stunning.

Speaking of tetraploids, I tried using Surflan to convert some diploids zinnia into tetraploids. I did a batch of giant cactus mix seedlings and had about a 50% success rate.

The treatment seriously sets back the seedlings development so I'm just now seeing flowers. It is interesting to compare the different chromosome numbers.

The tetraploid is just opening and will continue to get larger, so I can't compare flower size yet, but the form is very different. The petals on the tetraploid are noticeably thicker are stiffer, and I think that is stopping them from rolling into the cactus form.

And here is a tetraploid Benary's Giant.

I didn't get any diploids of this, so I can't make a direct comparison, but again I think the form is different, with the petal tips curving upwards rather than down the way I would expect.

For some reason, I haven't been receiving notification of posts on this thread for the past day or two. Am wondering now, if I'm not receiving any notifications from Houzz. Anyone else experiencing this?

Lots of stuff to comment on, I see. But I'm tired after a long day; will see you guys tomorrow. Maybe which ever glitch is causing my problem will be fixed by then.

- Alex

Hi Dorie,

" I'm a serious flower arranger and have been for many years. I really
wanted to know how your truly special tubular forms hold up, compared
to the 'parent' zinnias. Just curious, is all. "

I haven't done any "in vase" testing of the tubulars. But I do handle them quite a lot when cross pollinating them. The tubular petal form has some unique properties, not all of them good. The tubular petals resist bending, but some of them can actually break if bent extremely. I have taken advantage of that as a shortcut way to expose stigmas for pollination.

On the plus side, the tubular blooms can take care of themselves and hold their shape better when jostled with other blooms. The tubular bloom is stronger, structurally.

The tubular blooms don't look like zinnias, which can give them an identity problem. My Razzle Dazzles are a form of tubular, and they do look very much like the Razzle Dazzle gaillardias, and could probably substitute for them in an arrangement. The tubulars remind me of dried flowers, although they aren't. They are changing, as I try to improve them with various crosses and re-selections.

ZM

Hi RoseAlice,

" ...your tubular zinnias are still so fascinating! You were
saying how sometimes they seem as if they are being pollinated on their own. I
wonder if you could select for lines that do produce seeds without your help?
Then, the only time your work would be necessary would be when you are
hybridizing. "

That is exactly what I intend to do. One variant of the tubulars, which I call "Woolies", already has that feature, an internal anther bundle in the petals, along with an internal stigma, which produces a selfed seed. This is a typical Woolie:

ZM

Hi, all. I still am not receiving notification. Only saw that ZM had posted when I went directly to this thread this morning. Normally, of course, there'd be a message from Houzz at my e-mail acct. I occasionally pipe in on other threads, but honestly don't remember what all unless I receive the message. This is the only thread I consistently check. So, I'll ask again - anyone else having this problem before I go to Houzz with it?

Anyway - backtracking...Dorie, I absolutely LOVE flower arranging, but haven't been able to for the past 5 years or so because of the cats. Oh, the things I've sacrificed; I should be nominated for sainthood. Except for the whole miracle-performing thing. So, as the zinnia growing is mostly post-cat era, I never did much with them as vase flowers. But judging by the stems and their longevity in the field (and the literature), they are great candidates for it. Some of those suckers are still looking good after weeks in the field! - that's got to translate well to the vase I would think. Oh, and I'd like to add that I rarely did any additives to the water, though I read about all of the different things (except for ZM's Physan 20). I wasn't doing it professionally (though I did do it occasionally for friends), so I just followed "good hygiene" - making sure the lower leaves were removed, changing vase water, recutting stems as needed, and, of course, proper prep of stems before they ever hit the vase - whichever was the proper prep for each individual flower type. Sigh. Really miss those days.

Rosealice -
What are you hoping to get from your crosses? Maybe you are experimental like me and looking for something new but unexpected.
You got it. I haven't been doing this long enough (this is the 3rd year of zinnias) to have any specific direction in mind. I just like the process and the "science" (my husband is probably getting tired of me quoting The Martian: "I'm gonna science the sh*t outta this!" - loved that movie... and book), and my goal is just to please myself with something beautiful. And it's not so much red that I fell in love with, but that sort of orangey, salmony, reddish-pinkish look of the hybrid I called the lotus. Many of the reddish ones in this year's selection are crosses with it. I will continue to pursue it. And I'm with Joseph in loving your medusa headed zinnia.

Joseph - would like to know sizes on those blooms you pictured. And how big are the tetraploids now? I won't be doing any experiments this season with tetraploidy, obviously, since I'm not starting any more seeds. Maybe next season if I don't feel too pressured. I really took on way too much for this season, I'm afraid. And there's more to be done to the new patio garden - it may keep me hopping still next season. Oh, and Rosealice, those small zinnias on the patio are the Zaharas. Haven't done many crosses with them, but there will be a few to play with next season anyway.
- Alex

Alex,

The tetraploid Benary's Giant is just under 5" now, and I think has stopped growing. The tetraploid cactus was 3 inches yesterday, 4 inches today, we'll see how much bigger it gets.

I think I won't see the full results of tetraploidy until next year when I grow seedlings from these plants. Due to how I converted them, the roots are still diploid, and often the process results in a mixture of diploid and tetraploid cells (mixiploid) but hopefully the next generation I'll have fully tetraploid plants.

Hi Joseph,

" Speaking of tetraploids, I tried using Surflan to convert some
diploids zinnia into tetraploids. I did a batch of giant cactus mix
seedlings and had about a 50% success rate. The treatment seriously sets back the seedlings development so I'm
just now seeing flowers. It is interesting to compare the different
chromosome numbers."

A few years ago I grew two different commercial tetraploid zinnias, State Fair and Burpee's Big Tetra Mix, primarily to evaluate whether tetraploid zinnias were resistant to Powdery Mildew. I had several dozen of each tetraploid cultivar growing side-by-side with several diploid cultivars. To my great disappointment, the tetraploid Z. violaceas (elegans) were just as susceptible to Powdery Mildew as the diploids. As cooler weather and shorter days came in the Fall, all of them, diploids and tetraploids alike, became severely covered with Powdery Mildew. Tetraploidy contributed zero resistance to Powdery Mildew in those zinnias.

On page 347 in Chapter 12, Zinnia, of Flower Breeding and Genetics, it states that, "Relative to diploids, tetraploid zinnias have larger flowers and thicker, stronger stems but also have poorer seed germination, less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer capitula." ("capitula" is Latin for "blooms" -- I know you know that, but some of the readers here might not) The less branching, delayed flowering, and fewer blooms were kind of a deal breaker for me. So I decided to stick with diploid zinnias. If tetraploid zinnias had exhibited immunity to Powdery Mildew, I probably would have moved to tetraploid.

Incidentally, there are commercial tetraploid cactus flowered zinnias available.

" I didn't get any diploids of this, so I can't make a direct comparison,
but again I think the form is different, with the petal tips curving
upwards rather than down the way I would expect. "

I have grown Benary's Giants and California Giants that had the same petal shape as the one you showed. Some even showed an exaggerated form of it. So that is not a defect (or advantage) of the tetraploidy.

I very much appreciate your contributions here. I have been considering the production of haploid zinnias via tissue culturing of pollen followed by chromosome doubling of the haploid plants to instantly get a true breeding pure diploid strain of zinnias, so your experiments with Surflan on zinnias are very interesting to me.

ZM

(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Alex,

" I still am not receiving notification. ...So, I'll ask again - anyone else having this problem before I go to Houzz with it? "

I have not selected to get notifications, so I never get them here, and wouldn't know if that feature is working or not. I did notice an anomalous failure in my browser (Firefox) to update this message string when I hit the F5 key, so something may be wonky here.

ZM

LOVING The Forms But REALLY NOT Likening The Amount of Pink Flowers Zinnias.....

We NEED More Colours in The Forms That is shown Here......

Hello!

Alex, I've not been using this Houzz-sponsored thread much, but one thing I have been noticing is that several times after it says I have entered a comment, it really isn't entered here, so I'm careful to copy everything so that I can resubmit if necessary.

I actually like the different shades of red zinnia, and every year, I always order some red Benary-type seeds from either Park or HPS. When they cross randomly here with the other colors of flowers that I have, I find I get a lot more of varying shades of red and rose, etc. the next season.

Joseph, it will be interesting to see how your tetraploids work out. Are you going to try and cross some of those, or possibly tetraploids of different species? It would be interesting in either case to see how some of the traits are inherited. Some characteristics may be enhanced while others dampened. Getting a really huge zinnia would be a neat goal--I think ZM, too, looks for the bigger zinnias in his garden. I don't believe I have ever found anything here much greater than 5" across.

ZM, the variation you are getting in your tubular flowers is impressive! It's good you are getting a number that can set their own seed. You must be getting a pretty good handle on what colors are inherited after the many crosses you have made, too. I have always intended to do that, but I end up loosing control over the crosses here and get greedy, saving as much seed as I can--anyway, I have few "pure" plants of anything in my garden so predictability is pretty low. I admire the fact that you are keeping up with your breeding program, and seem to be making so much progress in so short amount of time.

I have a number of flowers that have short petals in the center and much longer petals on the outside, having few layers of petals, and giving the flowers a flat appearance.

Again I was a sucker this year and ordered seed for scabious zinnias. Of course I was lucky if one out of twenty plants actually showed the scabious trait!

A type of zinnia I haven't had for a while are the Peppermint Sticks, so I got some seed this year. Interesting how these flowers often have a somewhat domed shape.

Rosealice

Hi Rosealice,

That is a nice looking Peppermint. I quit growing the striped zinnias early on, because the striped effect started showing up unexpectedly in my recombinants, like this one. This is not something I "was going for".

" I have always intended to do that, but I end up loosing control over
the crosses here and get greedy, saving as much seed as I can... "

Well, you do have an investment of your time in the blooms that you cross-pollinate, so I suggest you mark them in some way, so that you can save their seed separately, perhaps as green seed. I use green Velcro to make tags to identify my breeders. The green of the Velcro blends nicely with the green of my zinnia foliage, so my tags do not act as an "eyesore".

" I admire the fact that you are keeping up with your breeding program,
and seem to be making so much progress in so short amount of time. "

The two generations of zinnias that I grow indoors doubles my generations per year to four. Things go fairly rapidly at four generations per year.

" I have a number of flowers that have short petals in the center and much
longer petals on the outside, having few layers of petals, and giving
the flowers a flat appearance. "

That is definitely a new look. I would label them so that you can save their seeds separately. I can't say it is awfully beautiful, but it is different, and might develop into something very interesting, particularly if you intercross those that have that effect. Intercrossing them might exaggerate the effect. I have the occasional oddball zinnia that I actually like, like this triangular shaped one.

More later. I have weeds that need to be chopped.

ZM

Hi Ninecrow,

Here is some color, from past years in my garden.

More later..

Rosealice

ZM,

Your lavender tubular flower is pretty. The part I like is the flare of the tubes, making each one take up more space. But, I also like the very narrow-tubed flowers, like the ones you posted on August 6. They look so unusual. Have you ever thought of entering some of your flowers in a show? It would be interesting to see what the viewers would think, but also get the opinion of some of the judges. I bet they would find them fascinating! When I see some of the results you are getting from specific crosses, it does inspire me to try some crosses here this year.

I spent a good part of the day collecting seeds and deadheading those flowers that the finches have already robbed of seed. It has been extremely hot, and we hadn't had any rain for about three weeks. After I was in the garden, we finally picked up about a quarter inch of rain. That will help some. After I posted the photos of the whirligigs today, that reminded me of some of the recent observations in my garden. Last year, probably half of the seeds I sowed were those of whirligigs. Strangely enough, the seeds harvested from last year's garden and planted this year resulted in very, very few flowers with the whirligig look. This is the first year that I haven't planted whirligig seeds, and I am very surprised to see that at least in the F1, the appearance of the whirligigs from last year is not carrying through. Some flowers have a very subtle hint of color change, but I don't see the definite rings and patterns usually seen in whirligigs.

Rosealice

Hi Ninecrow,

" We NEED More Colours in The Forms That is shown Here...... "

Pink
is probably one of the most common zinnia colors, if not the most
common. And I agree that for diversity, I should strive for a balanced
color range. Mother Nature sometimes has a different idea. And pinks in
many variations continue to appear. Actually, my favorite zinnia color is white, or near white. A few samples. This was an outdoor specimen in a previous year. I am beginning to like asymmetric zinnias.

ZM

Hi Rosealice,

" Have you ever thought of entering some of your flowers in a show? "

I have thought of it. Most county fairs have flower categories and I see zinnias there, and one will always have a blue ribbon. In a previous year I noticed a blue ribbon winner with very probable viable green seeds. No one was around at that moment (zinnias aren't nearly as popular as livestock) and I could have easily removed a few green seeds from that bloom, and nobody would have been the wiser. I am a bit security conscious about my zinnias, because some day I might sell seeds of a new cultivar to a seed company. And I envision a couple of problems with entering my zinnias in our County Fair. First, I would probably be unable to convince the fair officials that my unique zinnias were actually zinnias. And, in the following year, I would hate to find myself competing against a bunch of my own zinnias (that seed snatching possibility).

" This is the first year that I haven't planted whirligig seeds, and I am
very surprised to see that at least in the F1, the appearance of the
whirligigs from last year is not carrying through. "

I had a very similar experience the year after I discovered my tubular "mutant" and excitedly crossed it with a bunch of my better zinnias. I planted several beds of F1 tubular X cactus hybrids and was shocked to see NO tubular blooms. Then I remembered that the tubular trait could be recessive, and I should have a recurrence of tubular petals in the F2's. In my second generation that year I got a good representation of tubular petals, in a variety of shapes and colors. I was relieved. Of course, I had a good supply of selfed seeds from the original tubular "mutant", so I wasn't in any actual danger of losing the tubular trait. But you might want to plant a few commercial Whirligig zinnias next year, just to add to your gene pool. I planted some this year.

You have made some real progress this year. I think there are still a lot of hidden gems in your gene pool. Those mixed long and short petals are a trait I have never seen, and they are worth inter-crossing, just to see what they might do. And do intercross some Extreme Rolls. You have a lot of cross pollination opportunities, and I encourage you to label your crossed heads so you can give them special treatment and priority at seed saving time.

More later. We are having heat with a lot of humidity, which slows me down considerably in the garden.

ZM

Thanks Guys For The NON Pinks..... LOL

Rosealice,
Love, love, LOVE the combinations of colors in some of your blooms. Very dramatic.
You asked about my goals with tetraploids. I'm doing it partly because I'd like to aim for huge flowers, and that seems like the best place to do it. Partly because I was just curious to see if I could successfully induce tetraploidy. Partly because I'd like to try crossing them with tetraploid Z. linearis to re-create Z. marylandica, hopefully with some more diversity in flower form. Partly because I know in daylilies breeders have found they can get more variation in tetraploids than they do in diploids and I'm curious to see if the same is true in zinnia.

ZM,

Your tubular white flowers are beautiful! I especially like the second photo down, with the toothy petals. It looks a little like a fancy chrysanthemum, but I think is prettier. In a garden with a lot of mixed flowers here, white is a very rare color. Most likely among a lot of F1s, those are the ones that have selfed.

Alex, the last couple of years I have been saving seeds from the extreme Roll flowers and growing them up, then successively choosing in the next year, the seeds from flowers that are showing the trait. I keep seeds from the rest of the flowers and call them "X-roll sibs." Then, in successive years, I plant several rows of seeds from flowers with the Extreme Roll trait, and several rows of seeds from the "sibs." If pollinators come, they are most likely to share pollen among these flowers that are situated closely in the garden. Several years running, I tried selfing the plants with Extreme Roll flowers, and I got such a varied population of F1s, it was hard to believe they all had the same parents. I covered the flowers with nets, and although I am confident that the nets kept pollinators from taking most of the pollen, I am not so sure that the nets kept pollen from other flowers from getting in. I had some bags that are usually used for breeding corn, but somehow they got lost before I used them. Regular paper bags would get too soggy when it rained.

Joseph, it will be good to get the tetraploidy technique down. The relationship of the genes in the diploid condition is rather well-balanced; with tetraploidy, some things will be thrown out of kilter, and who knows what will happen? More genes for a trait may not increase expression but tone it down, or interact in a different manner. There should be some interesting outcomes.

I was lead to think about crossing different species again. Maybe I will attempt it in a nonchemical way. I have a plot of Aztec Sunset haageanas this year, but very few whirligigs. Oh well, I'll give it a try in crossing them.

X

Rosealice

=

Hi Rosealice,

" Your tubular white flowers are beautiful! I especially like the second photo down, with the toothy petals. "

I am glad you like it, but that toothy was obtained directly from the Whirligig strain, by inter-crossing Whirligig specimens that displayed some toothy tendencies on their petal ends. You can tell it is not a tubular by those visible stigmas. As I had hoped, inter-crossing slightly toothy specimens resulted in a much enhanced toothy effect. Further inter-crossing of increasingly toothy specimens led to an extreme form of toothiness, like this one.

" I was led to think about crossing different species again. Maybe I
will attempt it in a nonchemical way. I have a plot of Aztec Sunset
haageanas this year, but very few whirligigs. Oh well, I'll give it a
try in crossing them. "

Aztec Sunset is a selected dwarf form of Zinnia haageana. They are supposed to grow less than a foot tall, but yours appear taller. My few attempts to cross with Zinnia haageana (I used Persian Carpet as my haageana) failed. The pollen florets of Z. haageana are very small. My advice would be to attempt the cross "both ways", and hope to be lucky.

ZM

There's an issue that has come up with recent reading: the business about backcrossing to fix a desired trait. With zinnias which are annuals this seems more problematic to me than it would be with a perennial. Unless you had a great quantity of the original seed that produced the parent, you would be out of luck in trying to backcross to the breeder parent of a particular cross you favored. You could cross it with those siblings that most resembled the breeder parent, but if your breeder was one of your own crosses rather than an established commercial strain, even it's selfed seeds would be hit and miss for specific traits, wouldn't they? Are you following my train of thought?

Take my lotus plant for an example. It was one of a handful of several seeds gathered from a cross I made between 2 whirligigs. It's siblings resembled it, but no two were alike, and some were definitely below par. If I had a great quantity of the seed that it came from, I might find that only a few were of the quality of that one plant. So, now I have saved seed from it's crosses and its selfs as well. One of its selfs is probably my favorite this season, but it's a fair departure from the original lotus in shape. Some of the other crosses made with the mother lotus are closer in shape to the original, but not as nice really.

Anyway, the thought behind all this is that, as a couple of friends of mine were walking through my garden, the question was put to me - "will these come true from seed?" I had to say No, not unless I had the time and resources to grow a large number of plants to allow for backcrosses. Would this be correct?

- Alex

I don't do any purposeful pollination, but I do collect seeds of plants I want to expand or add in a different location. In order to protect the seeds from being eaten or dropping before I can get to them, I use tulle "wedding favor" bags. They can be ordered online from a variety of places in many different sizes. Here is a picture:

The weave of the fabric is fine enough to keep out almost any insect visible to the naked eye, so anything capable of carrying pollen. The drawstring would make them perfect for protecting individual blossoms. Hope this is helpful to someone.

Martha

Hi Alex,

" ...as a couple of friends of mine were walking through my garden, the
question was put to me - "will these come true from seed?" I had to say
No, not unless I had the time and resources to grow a large number of
plants to allow for backcrosses. Would this be correct? "

Not strictly. Your original Whirligig cross that produced your F1 Lotus hybrid (what a lucky beginner's luck thing!) could very well have been between two Whirligig specimens that themselves would not come true from their selfed seeds. Because commercial zinnias are primarily bee-pollinated, a significant percentage of them came from an F1 hybrid bee cross with neighboring zinnias in that particular field.

A commercial packet of Whirligig zinnias came from a whole field of different Whirligig zinnias. There will have been a tremendous variety of Whirligig zinnias in that field. The picture on the packet may show only five or six or seven different "typical" specimens, but the reality is that every seed in the packet could be an entirely different Whirligig specimen.

So we don't know if the cross you were making was between two selfed Whirligigs, or between an F1 bee hybrid and a selfed Whirligig, or possibly even between two F1 bee hybrid Whirligigs. In any case, your two Whirligigs, like commercial open pollinated zinnias in general, had actual fairly complex family trees.

So, it is a given that your Lotus hybrid was an "F1 zinnia hybrid". The process of making an F1 hybrid come true from seed is called "dehybridization". Joseph discusses dehybridized varieties on page 91 of his book. If the original cross was between two inbred varieties, and one of those had a trait that you wished to retain, then backcrossing to retain that trait could be useful. But backcrossing to a heterozygous parent could actually set you back. And since zinnias tend to be heterozygous, back-crossing is probably not a good dehybridizing strategy, even if you do have a good seed supply of the original parents.

For zinnias, just grow as many F2s as you can and select the truest examples and possibly intercross between some of the better examples, and repeat that process. Successful zinnia dehybridization can take five or more generations, depending on your standards for "purity".

An odd serendipitous thing in zinnia dehybridization is that you may find specimens in your higher generations that actually please you more than your original F1 hybrid goal. You may experience multiple goal drift and wind up with several different dehybridized cultivars.

I know that asking me a question can be a bit like trying to take a drink from a firehose, and I apologize for my wordiness. Joseph can probably give you a shorter clearer description of dehybridization. He has had the experience of working with a book editor.

But the short answer to your original question is that you don't need to do back-crossing to dehybridize a zinnia hybrid. A dehybridized zinnia does come true from seed.

Joseph can give us a valid second opinion on this, and further explain the meaning of heterozygous. If an individual does not breed true for a trait, it is probably heterozygous. Zinnias are usually heterozygous. The definition of heterozygous is having different alleles of a single gene or from gametes with different arrangements of genes. But that is just digging me in deeper. Perhaps Joseph can dig me out of this hole.

ZM

ZM -

I know that asking me a question can be a bit like trying to take a
drink from a firehose, and I apologize for my wordiness. Joseph can
probably give you a shorter clearer description of dehybridization. He
has had the experience of working with a book editor.

LOL. No, no - I'm getting you, and I see the logic to it because of the heterozygosity - if there is such a word. (Just looked it up - there is.) And no need to apologize for wordiness; clarity sometimes requires it. Or in my case, I just like to hear myself talk. Or write, as the case may be.

So, I'm better off in the long run, crossing my crosses from the plant or plants that I most admired; eventually hitting my goal from repeated selection of those plants carrying the desired traits. Or as you and Joseph ( - yes, I had read that far - am almost done with the book, but have been rereading sections. It's a good book) have said, I may come up with something even more to my liking than whatever my original goal was. This is doubly true, I'm sure, as I don't even know what my goal is! :)

- Alex

Hello from very rainy Indiana!

All this talk about hybrids and heterozygosity....it's a frustrating condition to try and duplicate in zinnias, particularly if the phenotype of your zinnia is dependent on heterozygosity at multiple loci.... If you self a zinnia that whose desired trait is the result of heterozygosity, it's highly unlikely you will ever get 100% F1 from that zinnia with the trait (never say impossible in biology!)...with diploids, it's zero...with tetraploids, o my! But most likely there, you'll find some hybrid that is extremely interesting. Good luck getting another plant like it, unless you undertake vegetative reproduction! But all of this challenge is very fascinating! The variations we are seeing are infinite. If you isolate the gene pool of the desired zinnia, then it's more possible at some point, you'll see at least one plant like it again. That's probably what's happening with the scabious zinnias.

Back in 2008, I observed a lot of variations among my zinnias. One unusual trait that I've seen over the years is very fine petals...the petals of the zinnia are thin, and very silky- feeling. That year I had this sort of zinnia, which I called "Fine Petals."

I selfed "Fine Petals", and in 2009, "extreme roll" progeny were seen among the F1. That was the first time I saw ER. Note: I was careful about my crosses back then, have to get back to that!

Here are examples of the progeny from "Fine Petals" seed:

There's always some degree of pink in ERs, and I expect there may be linkage to one or more of the alleles making a pink color to one of the gene(s) that cause(s) ERs.

The hybridization I'm trying this year with the elegans x haageana is going in one direction--the dads will be the elegans, and the moms the haageanas. The elegans really put out the pollen, while the haageanas remain female for some time in the individual flowers before producing pollen, at least limiting the chance of selfing. I suppose it's best to breed in both directions, but I'm going for ease of method.. The Aztec Sunsets may be described as dwarf, but in my garden, they aren't. They are easily one foot high or so....maybe because they have to the east of them a border of 4 foot high Zinnia elegans.

Back in 2008, I attempted a cross between haageana 'Persian Carpet' and a white elegans zinnia I called "Snowflake."

X

In 2009, all of the seed from both flowers didn't germinate, except for one from the white flower which resulted in a plant with this flower:

I selfed this flower and got no seeds that germinated. I was very skeptical of this F1 and suspected the white may have well been pollinated from another source. A closer look at the offspring showed no modification of the elegans- type leaves or other obvious features.

Rosealice

Hi Rosealice,

I have had some zinnias that look rather similar to your "Fine Petals" zinnias. And also to the first progeny of Fine Petals. This picture was taken yesterday at about 8:00pm in my North Garden.

I have several more pictures to show, but this thread is approaching 100 messages with a reasonably high pixel content, so I think it is time to start Part 38 of this series.

See you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 38

It may be helpful to have two browser windows open at the same time, with this thread in one and Part 38 in the other. I think I will do that, because Rosealice has a lot of "meat" in her last message here that I want to respond to.

ZM