Could we have some help understanding healthy soil in rose forum.

User

7 years ago

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3985183/how-much-black-spot-should-you-tolerate?n=49

Here is a post of a first timer growing a fussy cultivar . The roses name is Sundowner. The New timer is Valkyrie.

The rose forum people only recognize the above parts of the plants.

Could you help and support with constructive comments about the below ground factors involved.

Thanks.

Featured Answer

kimmq

7 years ago

A good healthy soil growing strong and healthy plants can help minimize the occurrence of Black Spot, not eliminate it altogether but minimize it. A good healthy soil starts with the proper soil pH and balanced nutrients and that begins with a good reliable soil test. In addition roses grow quite well in soils that are well endowed with organic matter that are evenly moist but well drained.

Along with the good reliable soil test perhaps these simple soil tests might be of some help.

1) Soil test for organic
material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole
1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful
of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your
soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
can be bad as well.

5) Life. How many
earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
is not healthy.

kimmq is kimmsr

Comments (10)

jessjennings0 zone 10b
7 years ago
Sam, you and Khalid are the soil experts in this forum...
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
7 years ago
Sam, I'm not at all sure what it is you are looking for :-) After seeing this and your similar post in the Soils forum, I read through the linked thread and really don't see anything in the discussion that leads one to assume that there are soil issues. Black spot of roses is what it is and has little, if anything, to do with the soil.

We might get some feedback here from one or two responders that will insist that the better and healthier your soil is the less likelihood you will have disease and insect problems. And while that might be true to some degree, it is not a direct cause and effect relationship - a "bad" soil will not automatically mean your plant is destined for disaster nor is a "good" soil alone responsible for increased disease and insect resistance nor will it ever guarantee these problems NOT visiting a specific plant. Stuff happens!! Plants are living organisms and living organisms can be plagued by various pests and diseases regardless of the soil conditions or other care provided. Just like humans that follow the healthiest lifestyle they can could still contract serious diseases like cancer, MS or heart problems........stuff happens!!

I always encourage my clients and other gardeners to focus on their soil before planting anything to ensure it has good drainage, has a healthy and vigorous biology and adequate fertility or any unique attributes required by the plant(s) in question, as this will get everything off to a good start. But even the healthiest and best soil in the world will not eliminate the potential for any disease and or insect problems.

Does this help at all or do you need more?? Can you explain what soil info you are looking for that would better serve your purpose?

btw, black spot can be effectively treated organically but I'm sure you already know that............:-))
User thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
Related Discussions
Hey Anntn6b, could you please help me to understand?
Q
Comments (8)
Time to get past the colors. In my garden, I first see potential RRD from a distance. Remember how I said in your other post that roses are predictable? They are. If you see a mass of leaves within a huge rose, often it's just a birds nest. But occassionally it's witches broom, which happens when the back up leaf axil buds break, break again, and may break as many as 21 times. So that there's a cluster of new stems emerging from where there should be just one. Colors also draw us, especially when they are unexpected. And this is the hardest thing, because I wasn't used to seeing colors on the bushes...only on the blooms. That very deep reddish purple color comes with some roses.....it's always been there, we just haven't noticed it. But when it comes to Rose Rosette, we HAVE to look past the distant view. In my garden I have come to demand that there are three different symptoms before I say RRD (followed by expletives). Color is just one. And for color, I have asked on here (and will continue to ask) is anyone seeing that color on the same cultivar in my part of the country. Then I look at leaf symmetry, at leaflet symmetry, at the edges of the leaves, at the stipules (I place a lot of emphasis on stipules), on the spaces between leaves (internodal distances), on the buds themselves...some lack the hip part, some have too many rows of sepals and no stigmas...all sorts of things basic to the rose that go wrong. Aggierose, what you're going to have a real problem with is that your leaves are hitting serious summer heat too early. Those roses are putting out what are potentially good leaves (check the leaf edges), but the afternoon heat (I saw Dallas' temps yesterday and that was hot) is going to crisp up some leaves and stunt others. So you're going to get bushes with big healthy leaves from last month and early this month followed by skimpy leaves. (In my garden, the early spring leaves were small, followed by great honking big leaves from April when we had one great slow rainfall with 2" of rain and lots of N thanks to thunder storms, and now we are back to dry.) So we both are going to have to ignore leaf size and get to the up close look for the basics tield to the genetics of the rose. RRD messes up the rose morphology in ways that we can see, but we have to look closely. Sadly, this looking will continue as long as we grow roses. But knowledge means we can continue. We just learn more and share it.
...See More
I could really use some help and advice if you have the time...
Q
Comments (8)
Stephanie, first thing, don't get frustrated or give up. I lost nearly half the roses I planted the first year. Sometimes it's nothing you do, it's the plant. You didn't specify if you had potted or bare root roses. Or where you bought them. If you bought bare root in bags in Home Depot or Costo, then forget it, it's the roses, not you. They are notoriously bad news. I succumbed this year and bought two and they are goners already. These usually come with canker already so they are pretty much DOA when you buy them. If they were bare roots from a reputable vendor, then soaking will help tremendously. Also keeping the newly planted rose well watered and misting the canes helps as well. I don't mound my roses, because I'm in a warmer zone, but some people say it helps. Also, some sun protection may help if they are in all full sun. Basically a bare root rose is asleep and then gets shocked to life by being thawed out, shipped across the country, then plunked into the ground and has hot sun beating on it all day long. That doesn't sound like fun to me! So they are usually slow to start and some don't make it. That's why I like to soak them in a bucket for at least a week. They can wake up in nice warm water (in the shade) and many of them 'break dormancy' and begin to leaf out in the bucket. That means when they are planted, they are somewhat awake and have a lot of moisture in their canes to hopefully help them make it through the first few weeks while they are building their root system in their new home. Roses are hardy, brand new roses need some babying.
...See More
some rose bed soil questions
Q
Comments (7)
Michael is so right about preparing the whole bed. On the house pad where my primary rose garden in located, I have what amounts to glacier slurry/subsoil. The house pad was cut out of a slope created by glacier runoff eons ago. Once the decorative rock the previous owners used for the back of the house was scraped off, I was left with soil that was mostly rock with clay and silt between the tightly compacted rock. My huge novice mistake was to dig rose holes instead of preparing the whole bed. I created a gardening nightmare. I cannot buy soil or mulch up here, but I could buy bags of compost. I mixed a lot of compost with the native soil and screened out a lot of the rock from the native soil that I mixed with the compost when I planted my first roses. As the compost decomposed, the roses sank! How much they sank depended on how much organic material I mixed in with the native soil. I have since found that all of those rocks do not decompose and allow for good drainage in clay soil. I don't screen them out any more. In fact, I add rocks to my back fill instead of organic material and mound the soil in the planting hole UP so that when the rose sinks due to the OM around the root mass decomposing, it settles at the level that I want for the rose. Over the years, I've applied all of my organic materials on top of the soil. I have perfect drainage due to the rocks and the clay between the rocks held moisture quite well. I found that it is much easier to correct the nutrients values than to try to correct drainage. Putting the OM on top has actually improved my soil. Until the extreme drought, I had plenty of earth worms and the soil gradually became more friable. It is not fertile, yet. None of my roses died and except those that are not suited to my climate, all of them have done quite well. I do think that had I prepared whole beds properly with as much OM as possible and allowed it to set until the OM decomposed, I would have had an easier time of it in the long run. Kate ... I have so much rock in my soil, I can walk on it when it is fully saturated. Common sense would tell one that this is not the soil environment to grow healthy roses. The good news is that the roses don't know that. They just want to grow. Smiles, Lyn
...See More
10/27/15: Tips & recipes & thoughts to healthy life and healthy roses
Q
Comments (63)
JESS: Thank you for the pics. & neat info. about Badger .. I really enjoy learning about the animals in South Africa. One cup of chicken manure per bush is TOO MUCH. In a British rose forum, a lady burnt her roses by using chicken manure once a month. In my cold zone, I use chicken manure VERY SMALL amount when the temp is cool & rainy. Folks use Rose-Tone (has chicken manure) once a month for roses in pots. But that has only 1/6 chicken manure. I would use only 1/2 cup, 1 cup would be too salty. I killed a rose by mixing 1/2 cup of chicken manure in the planting hole. When chicken manure touches the root, it kills the root, best to dilute ONLY 1/2 cup with soil before spreading around the bush. I started a new thread, "10/30/15: Bad habits, good habits, rose & health tips, recipes." http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3473294/m=3/10-30-15-bad-habits-good-habits-rose-and-health-tips-recipes
...See More
User
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
No it doesn't help at all.

I was looking for help from a soil scientist. Like Elaine Ingham.

Please don't direct "stuff happens!" to me. TWICE! That is not helping me, it is just annoying. " Is what it is". Is very annoying too.

You say "Black spot of roses is what it is and has little, if anything, to do with the soil."

Then you go on in the next two paragraphs to talk about healthy soil.

I was asking for someone to say what you just said but (not to me) in the roses forum thread and also different mulches besides wood and mention the word soil 8 times like you just did. And mention drainage and compost too.

Please don't lecture me.

I was asking for someone to say what you just said in the roses thread.

Not to me.

The part "I always encourage my clients and other gardeners to focus on their soil before planting anything to ensure it has good drainage, has a healthy and vigorous biology and adequate fertility or any unique attributes required by the plant(s) in question, as this will get everything off to a good start. " Was good.

That is what I wanted you to say in the thread to the new gardener .

Check out my aerated compost tea thread in organic rose forum.

Linda ChalkerScott used manure tea instead of properly aerated good compost tea and then she said aerated compost tea doesn't work.
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
7 years ago
Hey - no need to get your panties in twist!! You asked for help - I gave it. Blackspot or any other fungal leaf disease has little, if anything, to do with the soil. The comment about "stuff happens" is to clarify that diseases and insect problems are for the most part independent of soil concerns.......you can have the best soil in the world and still get fungal issues and insects bothering your plants!! One does not necessarily align with the other.

If you have issues about soil concerns re: the "new gardener", send he/she to this or the Soils forum. We would be happy to help them out. I don't care to participate in the rose forum because a) there is no such thing as a completely disease resistant rose (especially in my climate) and I can't be bothered spraying and b) rose folks tend to be a bit over the top - your response being a prime example. Lecturing you???? Sheesh!!

And I am not the slightest bit interested in aerated compost tea. Other than it being a complicated way to deliver nutrients (why not just fertilize??), it has no other documented benefits.
User
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
If you don't like what I post you are welcome to ignore and move on. You write about reality and myths .

Well , reality is I didn't want you to comment to me but you did anyway.

It is against the Houzz GardenWeb rules to be promoting your website it is all over cyberspace more than GEICO commercials. Only GEICO commercials are entertaining yours isn't funny at all. Actually it is frightening. It is called propaganda.

Your corporate sponsored website has been pushed in my face one hundred times.

No Thanks. With friends like you who needs enemies. I am glad you aren't a doctor for people only plants.

Here is an example of your logic.

"Your Dad has heart disease, Stuff happens."

Basically you are a writer.

I spent a lot of time on my posting comments about compost tea. It is not complicated just because you can't understand it. It is about the Life in the soil.

I knew you would shoot it down.

I knew you would post your Linda ChalkerScott web site.

That is exactly what I am talking about how you used the manure tea instead of properly made compost in the aerated compost tea.

You say it has no documented benefit, but then also, in your website you admitted there is documented results at Rodale with wine grapes.

I will report you to Garden Web support about the panties comment as being abusive and also spamming by posting your website both illegal in the forum. It shows you can't conduct yourself with out resorting to unprovoked personal attacks.

The last time I heard someone say don't get your panties in a twist was from a seventh grade bully.

Please do not direct a comment to me again.
MrClint
7 years ago
The best thing to do is find someone that successfully grows roses in MD, which is where the poster in the link is located. I'm in So Cal and don't grow roses, so I can't offer direct help from experience other than "all gardening is local." General soil husbandry advice seems less than helpful for something as specific as rose bushes.
rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
7 years ago
Gardengal has a website? First I've heard of it. I assure you that she is not a spammer.
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
7 years ago
Dear Sam........normally when a poster asks for help and that help is offered, a simple thank you will suffice :-) Or if you disagree with that help/advice, just ignore and move on. You do not need to come back and berate the responder if you do not agree or if the help was not necessarily in the form you desired.

As to promoting "my website", I do not have a website!! And it is not illegal or against Houzz rules to link to any other informational website, especially one that is science based and authored by a very well-respected horticultural PhD. I think you might misunderstand what 'spamming' is as there was nothing in my post that could remotely be considered 'spam'!! And getting your "panties in a twist" is a pretty innocuous comment considering how you initially responded to me and is certainly not actionable!! LOL!!

And please don't presume to tell me what I understand or don't understand about the soil or compost tea. You have no idea what my background is. I am a degreed horticulturist. I teach at the college level and I give seminars on soils and composting and consult regularly on growing conditions, plants and diseases as part of my business.What sort of educational or science background do you possess?

Out of curiosity, if you are so well-versed on the alleged benefits of compost tea and "life in the soil", then why didn't you respond to the OP in the rose thread regarding what sort of soil conditions she should have prepared?

And I too will avoid responding to any threads you author.......your logic (or rather, lack of it) escapes me and I don't need to be abused and threatened by relative newcomers to this site that I have been participating in for nearly 2 decades!! Enough!!
henry_kuska
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
What is present below ground does contribute to whether a plant is healthy. This has been known to many experienced farmers for probably many generations and is now being scientifically verified.

For example, this is a full paper so one can read the introduction which includes:

"Trichoderma spp. are well-known as biocontrol agents (BCAs) due to their ability to antagonize plant pathogens (Benítez et al., 2004; Harman, 2006), to induce plant defense responses against pathogens, with beneficial effects on plant growth and development (Harman et al., 2004), and also to improve photosynthetic efficiency and respiratory activity, by reprogramming plant gene expression (Shoresh et al., 2010). Mastouri et al. (2010) demonstrated that, when tomato seeds were treated with Trichoderma harzianum strain T-22 (T22), a range of biotic and abiotic stresses were alleviated. This is because after the colonization of roots, Trichoderma spp., are able to chemically communicate with the plant and, sometimes, they act as endophytic symbionts. They are thus capable of correctly altering the expression of various plant genes and, as a consequence, plant physiology (Harman et al., 2012).

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpls.2016.01520/full

Could we have some help understanding healthy soil in rose forum.

kimmq

Comments (10)

jessjennings0 zone 10b

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

Related Discussions

User
Original Author

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

User
Original Author

MrClint

rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

henry_kuska

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Could we have some help understanding healthy soil in rose forum.

Comments (10)

Related Discussions

UserOriginal Author

UserOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

User
Original Author

User
Original Author