no. lawns are unstable ecosystems that necessarily tend to become sterile patches of land. you can improve things some by accepting some deep rooted plants in your lawn, and some legumes, so that nutrients cycle.

Maybe you are expecting too much as in the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. It could be that the soil hasn't had enough time to recover from being a chemical lawn. Maybe it needs a nitrogen boost. You could try alfalfa pellets.

Personally I'd rather have most anything else growing than grass. I lasagna garden all the grass that I can.

If lawn appearance is that important and if you like the looks of your neighbours yards over yours I suggest you find out what they do and do it. It's a personal choice.

I switched to an organic lawn program (after killing the prior very weedy thin lawn non organically).. I will say that the lawn did okay for a few years with weeds resettling back in (mainly dandelions and some speedwell)... I just fed the soil twice a year with a variety of food stuffs. Gjcore might be in it with the nitrogen... As a suspected with my lawn... Which is fill dirt with sod thrown on top. So this spring I applied 2.5 times the normal rate over a few weeks. The grass really did well and thickened up and is looking very good. Better then most folk how use conventional fertilizer. It still had some weeds... But really I am okay with that... I don't need it perfect... Plus I am hoping the thicker lawn will keep future generations at bay. I used a lot of sweet feed frim tractor supply. It has good protein levels, molasses, and it smells nice as well.

It may not take much fertilizer to get it where you want it. How about continuing to feed the soil as you are doing, and supplement with a small amount of appropriate fertilizer at appropriate times? It doesn't mean you're giving up and you certainly won't be overdoing and letting it run off into the streams. It doesn't have to be black or white. The world is full of gray.

I only fertilize every couple years or when I find bags of unused unwanted fertilizer. Same with the weed killer - I don't mind the clover and such and only use weed n feed when the dandelions start getting out of control and the neighbors start looking at me askance. I'm confident that the env. footprint of my lawn is still a lot smaller than average. If everyone cut back just a little...

It may just need overseeding to help thicken things back up. Pretty much a standard practice with lawn care, organic or not.

I'm slowly turning my yard into garden. Pretty soon there will be no 'lawn' at all. In my mind, and this is just personal feelings about the subject, the only real good that a lawn provides is a place for children to play. But... even then, the purists don't want children playing on the lawn lol. The thing I will miss when my lawn is gone, is the source of mulch and 'greens' it provides. When the entire property is garden, I'll need to import 'greens' and varied mulch products.

The idea of a Organic lawn sounds fishy to me. Lawns are very unnatural things were we force one organism to colonize a section of a ecosystem. Any invaders are ruthlessly destroyed. I moved onto this property last year and inherited a "lawn" that was more oriental bittersweet and bindweed then grass. Instead of fighting the weeds I let them compete with each other while I plan what to do for the future. One thing I noticed is Clover, Dandelions and even some Burdock has moved in and there seems to be less bindweed and oriental bittersweet in the areas they have moved into. They seem to recover from my aggressive mowing much quicker as well. I plan to eventually completely cover the area in cardboard put down a thick layer of wood chips and just add some raised beds.

I've been amazed how soybean meal has greened and thickened up my lawn.

The neighbors that look at my dandelion covered yard, wait until they see what I got planned, salsify. Looks like a dandelion on steroids! I can imagine them seeing these fluff balls in horror.

That soybean meal tip sounds interesting, will have to look into that.

Lawn? I mow the weeds. Pretty sure there is some grass in there.

Haha Peter..... I am pretty sure that is how it is for most of us...

To grow a good healthy lawn requires a good healthy soil, one well endowed with ample organic matter (6 to 8 percent) that is well drained, but retains moisture.

How much organic matter is in the soil?

How well does that soil drain?

How well does that soil work? What is the soils tilth like?

What does that soil smell like?

What kind of life is in that soil?

What is that soils pH?

What are the levels of nutrients, as indicated by a good reliable soil test?

Perhaps these simple soil tests may also be of some help.

1) Soil test for organic
material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole
1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful
of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your
soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
can be bad as well.

5) Life. How many
earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
is not healthy.

When done properly getting a soil into a good healthy condition can take 3 to 5 years. Don't get discouraged, yet.

kimmq is kimmsr

Appreciate the feedback. The house is a new construction. New lawn professionally installed and landscaped with sod. The native soil was fairly sandy and drained well and we topped it with fresh soil with about 6" after construction then installed sod. It is also professionally maintained (cut and an organic fertilizing company). I do overseed every fall and have aerrated twice.

It is not weeds that I am worried about, just some dead spots and overall thinness of the grass. I don't expect it to be perfect when going organic, but hoping for something a little better then what it is. Will try and upload some pics this weekend.

Here's what you need to know: perfect lawns don't happen. they take time, and continued effort.

New lawns take a while to establish. it's that simple. from what you have described, you'r still in that establishment phase...yeah, it's been a couple of years but...

here's the but.

water. if I were you, i'd adjust your watering schedule. forget the platitudes about weeds are lawns too, or don't give up yet, it's not about that. you have a lawn that is trying to get established, why water it like it is?

so first, i'd adjust your irrigation, and then, i'd overseed. thin lawn? overseed. pale lawn? fertilize.

OP says it is fertilized regularly and he overseeds in the fall so it sounds like he is doing most of that. Although the watering could be an issue.

You might try overseeding in spring, covering the seed with 1/2" of fine compost. I have pretty good luck patching bare spots that way.

If the topsoil is also sandy or silty, you may not need to be aerating. It's more important in clay soils. If your soil is coarse and drains well you should not have aeration problems.

I did my lawn organically, but one has to dig it up and apply compost and then over time you have to do it again and again every few years, when the soil uses up all the compost. I don't use board leaf weed killers, but it was a small lawn. I would just dig them out, but you need a small lawn and not to let it get over run. If the lawn has already become weed infested it is very hard to bring it back. I would remove the top layer of soil with the weed seeds, and the apply my homemade compost at a heavy rate and plant new seeds. It really did work for me, when I had a lawn. But, I spray other things for insect, but the lawn did not have insects and did not need any type of spraying or chemical.

We have been trying to keep an organic lawn in our back and front yards as well for about 3 years. Our first step was to really reduce the size of the lawn by adding a lot of planting beds all around our house. But we have a child and do play outside a lot so I want to keep a lawn area.

Our back lack lawn was in horrible shape so we actually solarized with black plastic to kill all the existing weeds and lawn for a full summer, then reseeded with a mix of fine fescue grass. It has been a few years and now there is clover growing all over which I don't mind. This spring we overseeded with the same fescue mix but also added "Mini clover" from Outside Pride to even the existing clover out a bit, topped with a top layer of filtered compost. It is growing lush and thick as of now. Not many weeds (I don't consider clover a weed). We hand pull the dandelions when they come. Mow high; leave the grass clippings; and water deeply.

Our front yard was in much better shape, but covered with dandelions. Like you, we are surrounded by neighbors with perfect chemically treated lawns so we do get embarrassed if ours has a lot of dandelions.

For this front lawn, over the years we have added layers of filtered compost, about once a year in the spring. We have also used corn meal off and on, but I find it very expensive and am not sure if it has really done anything. We also sometimes spray the lawn with compost tea (once a year.) Then my husband took on the back breaking job of hand digging out the dandelions. After digging each one out he puts a bit of horticultural grade vinegar (that I buy off Amazon) into the hole with a turkey baister. This works really well! Each spring he does have to spend a few hours doing it again, but not nearly as much as that first year. Then the rest of the summer it looks great.

We plan to aerate and lightly reseed the front lawn this fall, possibly adding the Mini Clover as well. Not sure yet, as it is looking really well at the moment without the addition.

Anyhoo, my recommendation to you would be to aerate again in the early fall, overseed witht he appropriate grass mix, and top with compost. I agree with another poster that your lawn may be helped just with some overseeding. You may as well try it and give it at least another year or two.

Outside Pride has a lot of good info on grass seed types and mixes, and if you are so inclined, read about their Mini Clover. You can use it as a stand alone lawn or mixed in with your grass to make it more lush. Their Combat Extreme grass mixtures might work for you too. They have different mixes depending on your zone. That is what we are going to use when we overseed our front yard this fall.

I re-read your second post and saw that you do, indeed, overseed. Perhaps look into a different type of grass mixture as I suggested above?

One can spend a lot of time, energy, and money on fertilizer, seed, and water and never have a good healthy stand of turf grass unless the soil is made into that good healthy soil that will grow a strong and healthy stand of plants. You can keep doing much of what is suggested by others here and continue having problems or take a good, in depth look at the soil and work on fixing any problems found and then, maybe, fertilize, seed, and water.

Priorities: a good healthy soil, a good healthy turf.

kimmq is kimmsr

I don't know, compost twice a year sounds like pretty good soil care to me.

Are you mulch-mowing and returning the clippings to the soil?

We do mulch mow and mow high. I do have them bag a few times in the spring so I have some greens to add to my huge pile of leaves for my compost. . Can I oversees in the fall and again in the spring or is that a waste of money?

also, would it be wrong or bad to occasionally use non organic fertilizer to help or quickly improve the lawn?

A 1/4 inch of compost twice a year will do little while a 1/2 inch spread 4 times a year will do much, depending on what the soil was like at the start. The only way to know what the soil is like at the beginning is to dig in and look at it.

kimmq is kimmsr

jrupjr, I'm no expert on lawn care, but as far as synthetic ferts...

First... you have to define 'bad'. If you are simply speaking to the health of the lawn, then no, they aren't 'bad'.

What can be bad is how the product is used. One of the downsides to using synthetics on lawns is run-off and its negative effects on the environment. Slow release is almost always better, but in a situation where it rains for a long time, even a slow-release product can dissolve and run-off before the lawn can put it to use.

So, the idea is to use it in a very controlled manner. That means a little at a time. If necessary, more often than you would apply heavy feedings. Also keep in mind that organics are often (not always) 'complete' fertilizers. They usually have a wide range of nutrients and minerals. Synthetics are often just a formulation of what the manufacturer decides. So be discerning about what you choose. If your soil test reveals that your soil is in good balance, you may just want to add N. But, keep in mind that you don't have to add it all at once. Multiple light feedings, spread out over a few months, are much better than a twice-a-year dump.

Now, as far as supporting the synthetic fert. industry with your hard-earned dollars lol, that might be 'bad'.

Oh, and don't waste that human water. Human urea is as powerful a fertilizer as most any synthetic lawn product and quite well-balanced for general use on lawns. Diluting, and spreading it around is best, but discriminate 'pit-stops' are not usually a problem.

You know we don't kick organic practitioners out of the lawn care forum, that's the more appropriate place for a discussion like this.

That's said, it sounds to me like you have the wrong grass for your zone, like having fescue in California. Wrong grass, but they've been doing it for decades & wondering why people waste so much water & fertilizer on their lawns. Duh. Given the OP's considerable efforts, this is my leading theory.

And lawns don't have to be wasteful, proper watering schedule on a proper lawn type uses less water than my vegetables do. As far as fertilizer, worm castings, compost & compost tea are all fantastic, but the pros like you use dilute their teas so much they are virtually useless. A fish or kelp based fertilizer spray works wonders (available at any box store), as do the alfalfa pellets, corn & soy meal mentioned above. Nobody would consider those pollutants. While I'm not strictly organic, I know it's merits & use as much of it as possible.

For weeds, mow properly with a push powered reel & hand pull weeds. No pollutants, no chems, no weeds. Again, hop over to the lawn forum & show us some pics, we'd love to help!

For the record: Bermuda grass in SE texas

habjolokia has the right idea. My lawn too is a living lawn and a shining beacon of biodiversity. It was dinner for our horses for 40-some years. Before that it nourished cows belonging to the previous owners. The animals that fed from it nourished it with their droppings. It was an eco cycle then and now. Now wildlife feeds there, rabbits, deer, an occasional bear, and they in turn nourish our several acres. It is home to birds and insects and other creatures. I pick dandelion greens from it for salads and stir fries, and mint from the wetter areas to add to tea.