I did a HUGE 5.1.1 re pot today and wanted to share and ingredients
myermike_1micha
7 years ago
Hello friends, after re potting dozens of trees and plants I am exhausted and the driveway in now a mess.
But I thought I would take a few pics and show you what ingredients that I use and where I get them from)
Ingredients...Pine/Fir bark mulch
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Laura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoRelated Discussions
Tapla's 5-1-1 Container Mix in More Detail
Comments (450)@dleverette When making 5:1:1 mix, I break-up the compressed chunks of peat so they pass through a 1/2" screen. I toss any sticks and such on top of the raised beds where they break down with time. Here's a tip you'll find very helpful. For large batches of 5:1:1, pour the bark onto a tarp laid on a flat surface, then wet the bark a bit. Then, add the screened peat and spread it over the bark. Add your lime on top of the peat, then put down the perlite and wet that. The trick is to use just enough water to make the mix damp when it's thoroughly mixed. Both peat and pine bark are hydrophobic (water repellent) when allowed to dry below about 20% of their water holding ability. This makes a dry 5:1:1 mix extremely difficult to rewet if you don't moisten it when you make it. The moisture in the mix diffuses, moistening the bark/ peat and "breaking" its tendency to repel water. Within 15-30 minutes of making the mix you can pot plants and water them in thoroughly w/o the frustration associated with trying to rehydrate a dry soil. FWIW, I don't use coir. As many times as I've tried it and cone comparative experiments, I've always had problems or been dissatisfied with the results. You might be interested in a comparison between peat and coir I wrote several years back: Peat vs. Coir Sphagnum peat and coir have nearly identical water retention curves. They both retain about 90-95% of their volume in water at saturation and release it over approximately the same curve until they both lock water up so tightly it's unavailable for plant uptake at about 30-33% saturation. Coir actually has less loft than sphagnum peat, and therefore, less aeration. Because of this propensity, coir should be used in mixes at lower %s than peat. Because of the tendency to compact, in the greenhouse industry coir is primarily used in containers in sub-irrigation (bottom-watering) situations. Many sources produce coir that is high in soluble salts, so this can also be an issue. Using coir as the primary component of container media virtually eliminates lime or dolomitic lime as a possible Ca source because of coir's high pH (6+). Gypsum should be used as a Ca source, which eliminates coir's low S content. All coir products are very high in K, very low in Ca, and have a potentially high Mn content, which can interfere with the uptake of Fe. Several studies have also shown that the significant presence of phenolic allelochemicals in fresh coir can be very problematic for a high % of plants, causing poor growth and reduced yields. I haven't tested coir thoroughly, but I have done some testing of CHCs (coconut husk chips) with some loose controls in place. After very thoroughly leaching and rinsing the chips, I made a 5:1:1 soil of pine bark:peat:perlite (which I know to be very productive) and a 5:1:1 mix of CHCs:peat:perlite. I planted 6 cuttings of snapdragon and 6 cuttings of Coleus (each from the same plant to help reduce genetic influences) in containers (same size/shape) of the different soils. I added dolomitic lime to the bark soil and gypsum to the CHC soil. After the cuttings struck, I eliminated all but the three strongest in each of the 4 containers. I watered each container with a weak solution of MG 12-4-8 with STEM added at each watering, and watered on an 'as needed basis', not on a schedule. The only difference in the fertilizer regimen was the fact that I included a small amount of MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to provide MG (the dolomitic lime in the bark soil contained the MG, while the gypsum (CaSO4) in the CHC soil did not. This difference was necessary because or the high pH of CHCs and coir.) for the CHC soil. The results were startling. In both cases, the cuttings grown in the CHC's exhibited < 1/2 the biomass at summers end as the plants in the bark mix. I just find it very difficult for a solid case to be made (besides "It works for me") for the use of coir or CHC's. They're more expensive and more difficult to use effectively. The fact that some believe peat is in short supply (no where near true, btw) is easily offset by the effect of the carbon footprint of coir in its trek to the US from Sri Lanka or other exotic locales. That's the view from here. YMMV Coir Study: https://sites.google.com/site/plantandsoildigest/usu-crop-physiology-laboratory/coconut-coir-studies Al...See MoreAl,something I have always wondered about the gritty and 5.1.1mix
Comments (4)Somewhere around 20 years ago, I was at a business meeting in Chicago. I had arrived Thu night for Fri-Sat meetings and was bored, so wandered around the hotel. I soon discovered that there was also a bonsai convention being set up, which was to begin on Fri. I was amazed at the beauty of the little trees, so asked if I could observe. Permission was granted with the proviso I stay out of the way. I decided that day that I had to learn how to grow those wonderful little trees. I came home and soon stumbled on an adult education flier that offered a 1 day bonsai workshop. I paid my fee & soon had a little garden juniper, perfectly ripe for the killing. I stumbled around in total darkness for that entire summer before realizing I knew nothing about soils or keeping plants alive in containers, but that knowledge was prerequisite, so I set the plants aside and hit the books. I studied bonsai techniques and the art itself, but mostly I concentrated on physiology and soil science. After 4-5 years of what I think was pretty diligent studying, I had learned enough about plants and soils that, to my great happiness, I was able to keep plants alive and healthy in containers. I was using 'bonsai' soil that was commercially made, and little better than other heavy 'from-the-bag' soils that were available. About the only thing that set it apart was it's gritty mineral components. I discovered and joined a local club, and primarily through my bonsai magazines, gradually became exposed to a wide variety of potential soil ingredients. As I continued to study and gain a better understanding of how soils work and how various combinations of ingredients affected the end product, I started experimenting with various combinations of ingredients. I learned early on that soils intended to hold plant material for extended periods needed to be very durable. I was still operating under the illusion that container soils had to be nearly all organic or they wouldn't work. I soon discovered that was nowhere near true. It was a combination of trial and error, reading what others were doing, and experimenting, using what I had learned about soil science that helped me up with the idea of combining an ingredient that was large enough that it held very little perched water but still held plenty of water in internal pores (screened Turface) with an ingredient on the opposite end of the spectrum - granite, which holds no water internally - only on its surface. The bark, though it offers some nutrition as it slowly breaks down was an excellent compliment to the other two ingredients because it offered a filler that held about the same volume of water as the average between the Turface and granite, and because it was plentiful and cheap; plus, it fit the durability requirement better than any other commonly found organic component, as long as I limited the organic fraction (bark) to 1/3 of the whole or less. Each of the ingredients in the gritty mix is actually carefully chosen. Particle size, the ability to hold/not hold water, expense, availability (for me) were all carefully considered as I settled on the ingredients and ratio. I've been using the gritty mix for about 15 years, and haven't found a way to improve it yet. With the number of people I stay in contact with in the bonsai community, it's easy to imagine there were a lot of materials that could have been substituted for one of the 3 primary ingredients or added to the trio. Many were tried, then discounted, and I still prefer the equal parts of fir bark:Turface:grit to anything else. I guess to answer your question directly, about how long it took me to come up with the gritty mix, I'd say it was about 5 years before it came together, but I was still learning a lot in the first 4 years. As far as the gritty mix being perfect, it may not be, for everyone; but the nice thing about it is it's flexible/adjustable for different locales and plant material by simply changing the ratio of Turface:grit slightly. The same is basically true of the 5:1:1 mix - it's flexible. My interest in bonsai also sparked a keen interest in growing a wide variety of other plant material in containers. Since I recognized the difficulty presented by the high level of water retention in almost all from-the-bag soils, and I had already witnessed the superb results from the highly aerated gritty mix, not to mention the fact that the gritty mix is more expensive than bagged soils, it wasn't long before I was tinkering with pine bark, peat, and perlite. I saw that nurseries were growing woody material in mixes with pine bark, so I should be able to grow my veggies and pretty/flowery stuff in some sort of concoction with pine bark as the primary ingredient. Having already settled on the gritty mix, I knew just what I wanted to achieve with the 5:1:1 mix, so that was easy. A few years after I started using the 5:1:1 mix, I started sharing how well it works here. You might not believe me when I tell you that JaG was one of the loudest dissenters, and couldn't imagine how soils with that much air could possibly be better than from-the-bag soils. He'll tell you that himself, and mentions it frequently. (I miss his being around). It took a couple of years of often very strong debate before he tried it and saw there really was a stark difference in results between a highly aerated soils vs those heavier and water retentive. Now he's a strong proponent of highly aerated soils. I was actually afraid to tell the forum about the gritty mix, because it was such a radical departure from what everyone on this forum was used to growing in that not one person would ever have believed you could grow in a soil that was 2/3 gravel and 1/3 large bark chunks. Honestly - I had to wait until I had earned enough credibility before I could even tell you that I grow lots of perfectly healthy plants in the stuff. It's much easier to open minds when there is more than a singular voice crying in the wilderness. ;o) Let's see ...... what drew me here? I think it was originally because I was doing a LOT of searching for info on the internet and GW kept coming up. After a few hundred GW hits, I guess I started to explore and ended up joining. The bonsai forum wasn't much fun because there was (still is) constant fighting, so I ended up here. I had also joined several clubs, and had often been invited to talk about different aspects of gardening. I talk most often about soils and things related to container gardening, but I also do presentations about pruning and hormones, propagation, repotting ..... I do bonsai demos and lead various workshops, too. I look at all of that as a natural extension of my love for growing/nurturing plants, so I guess it's not so unusual that you have to put up with me here. Whew! That took a lot longer than I thought it would. It was a really, really hectic weekend, so it's time for bed. Thanks for your interest, Mike - if you're still awake. ;-) TTYL Al...See MorePotting Mix - making 5-1-1 (video)
Comments (19)Well, it's a different mix completely. Both work nicely for Citrus. I prefer the 5-1-1 because it is easy to make, economical, lighter in weight, plenty durable, and retains more moisture during the hot Summer months (that said, both this recipe and the Gritty Mix can be adjusted to offer more or less moisture retention). Using uncomposted fir bark, as I do, will also allow this mix to last much longer. Josh...See MorePlease allow me to tell you a tale about root rot and 5-1-1
Comments (42)I think it's disingenuous to suggest that a well-made 5:1:1 mix needs constant watering. It doesn't. Even the gritty mix, that holds even less water than the 5:1:1 mix doesn't need constant watering. Do you have to water more often than more water-retentive mixes? Yes. But there is a price to be paid in the form of lost potential for the convenience of soils that hold water for extended intervals. Denise: there is a monetary consideration that clearly delineates hobby growers from professional growers. Nursery/greenhouse ops wouldn't be willing to pay employees to water twice as often as a heavier mix because they've weighed the cost of limitations due to temporary periods of excess water retention against the cost of watering more frequently, and decided it's to the advantage of their bottom line to sacrifice some lost potential to save labor $. The hobby grower is in the hobby to scratch their nurturing gene. for the most part, They actually feel good about spending more time with their plants and offering them the best care they can afford, as opposed perhaps to the cheapest soil they can find. Think of it in terms of the difference in perspectives between a puppy mill and the owner of a new puppy - two completely different worlds. So, care given by a nursery and greenhouse of will always be in consideration of the bottom line, which means following their lead will not always be in the best interest of the plant. Your care and mine are far more likely to be about providing the best care we can. Holding up the practices of a greenhouse or nursery is a little like asking us to emulate a puppy mill. I know - tugging at your heart strings. I wasn't really trying to do that - just the first good comparison that popped into my mind. Chicken farmer/ pet chicken, beef grower/ pet cow is another. If a plant is properly handled during a repotting session, it would be extremely unusual to lose a plant. Look at the two following root reductions where well over 90% of the roots were removed:Here, I have just finished pruning the top. This is after the root work was completed: Here ^^^, about 1/2 of the roots have already been removed The plant with root work complete:Note the size of the roots I removed. Many were more than 1" in diameter. In subsequent repots, I have removed all the knobby roots from the bottom of the bole. This plant was grown in the gritty mix - note the remarkably (for a maple) fibrous root system. The entire soil mass, you can see, is densely packed with the fine roots that do the lion's share of the work. After the root work: If you look, you can see the wire that shows this tree was layered above a poorly formed (but not unhealthy) root system. Where each of the 7 main roots are now, those that emanate horizontally from the trunk, I bored 7 holes into the sapwood and treated each hole individually with IBA rooting gel. I ended up with 7 perfectly spaced roots that will look great when they are later exposed on top of the soil. One more series, just to illustrate how little trees care about having half or more of their root systems removed: Again - note how healthy the roots are. ^^^ I wouldn't suggest you approach root pruning this radically, but removing 1/3 to 1/2 of a young plant's roots (younger than say 25 years) should be no problem. Plants that grow extremely fibrous roots (boxwood, azalea .....) need a slightly different approach. Keep the roots always wet while you work. First remove all problem roots (crossing, encircling, girdling, j-hooked roots - roots that grow upward, straight down, and roots that grow back toward the center of the root mass. After the problems are corrected (makes future repots much easier - the first is always the hardest) concentrate on removing the largest roots with the fewest fine roots attached. We know that root congestion negatively impacts growth, vitality (health) and yields, and those limitation become increasingly severe as root congestion increases. Pruning a bit around the edges of the root/soil mass and potting up is a half measure that ensures limitations remain until someone physically gets into the root mass and corrects the congestion and problem roots. Even planting out (in the landscape) will not eliminate the effects of congestion in the soil mass that existed at plant-out time. Al...See More
User
7 years agoOK, below is my 38 year old calamondin. I have it tied to the stake so that it doesn't get blown over. Bare branches on right are due to me not turning it periodically toward the sun during the winter (my bad).It is in Miracle Grow Citrus and Cactus mix. I had another one I bought at the same time in the same mix but it died years ago. In the background is my wildflower garden (for the pollinators) just starting to grow and elderly bush on right. To the left are some of my baby citrus.
Here is the 20+ year old key lime. It is one of two I started from seed. Both have been in Miracle Grow Citrus and Cactus mix. The other one died years ago. The key limes have a harder time being indoors in the winter than the calamondins and drop a lot more leaves. I just potted up the key lime yesterday. Will pot up the calamondin as soon as I have time to make more 5-1-1. (I just used up 3/4 of a trash barrel full in two days.)
myermike_1micha thanked UserLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agomyermike_1micha
7 years agoUser
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoVladimir, keep us updated on their repotting. While we are posting pics...here is my tangelo. I potted it up yesterday because it had grown so much it was too-heavy. I needed the smaller pot for a new arrival. I did not bare root because it was in the gritty mix and has shown nothing but tremendous growth.
myermike_1micha
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoUser
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agomyermike_1micha
7 years ago
hobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoWe had pouring rain last weekend and I went to my back area to check on everyone where I keep my tall citrus and peppers as they are more protected from the wind.
Can I say it was the most soothing relaxing thing just watching them thrive in the rain, it was almost as if they greened up right in front of my eyes.
Not sure if you can see the citrus in behind the peppers.
hobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoUser
7 years ago
BarbJP 15-16/9B CA Bay Area
7 years agoUser
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoUser
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoActually not as much canning now, it's too hot a process in the summer. I used to do tons. I ferment, dry them and grind them, make fridge pickles and mostly just bag and freeze the big ones for use throughout the next year. They are just as good as fresh in cooked applications. The smaller ones I freeze in the 2 liter mason jars so I can use the authentic types in recipes.
I do just as many tomatoes too, here is a pic of this year's planting.
Squash way on the left, tomatoes about to go in in the middle and peppers and eggplant on the right.
I have issues with overdoing it perhaps you can tell??? Actually a few of us on this forum seem to have the same problem ;).
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7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoUser
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agomyermike_1micha
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoLaura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agofigsinhawaii
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoUser
7 years agofigsinhawaii
7 years agomyermike_1micha
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agomyermike_1micha
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years ago
devsense
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoHobby - nice pepper patch . Thats one of the veggies I grow a lot as well , Poblano , Chile de arbol , Scotch Bonnet , Habanero , Thai , Bird Eye , Cayenne, Diavoletti , Jalapeno n do hot sauce , powder, grill , pickle , freeze
Did experiment one year with Pepper in pots to try n keep it as a perennial but the next year wasnt productive at all .
Laura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years ago
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hobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)