Any LVP experts out there?--Want unbiased, real info & not sales hype

7 years ago

We’ve been shopping and we’ve been doing a lot of reading about different luxury vinyl planks products. But, now that we know some things (often a lot more than the salespeople we’ve encountered) we have some points we’d like help on.

We are looking for quality flooring for a basement in a 100 year old house. In the past 30 years we had maybe 6 times where there was a teeny bit of water along one wall in the basement after very heavy rains. Now that we are doing a full gut remodel, we’ve regraded and we’ve installed interior drain tiles. So, water incursion isn’t something we’re really worried about. Our primary concern is our floor currently has a slope. Our general contractor (who based his bid on a click install) tells us it can be taken care of, but we are nervous after having read install instructions and the need for less than a 3/16” slope in 10’.

Integrated backing core vs no backing—Many stores have steered us towards Coretec because of its enhanced, more rigid backing. In our maybe-slight-slope scenario would Coretec (or a similar product) be our best bet? What are names of other brands that are similar to Coretec? Or, would we be better off with the standard no-backing, thinner LVP?
Wear layer—Looking for durability, we had been thinking of only buying a product with a wear layer of at least 20 mils. Now, we’ve read it is the actual composition of the wear layer and not the thickness that is most important. What thickness or type of wear layer is best for a lightly trafficked basement where we want to make sure the product will last and not scratch?
Shorter vs longer planks—Is this only a matter of appearance, or are there install reasons (works better on uneven floors, less installation waste) to choose one over the other?
Glue down vs click & prices for these different installs—We have been planning on a click install product. Would a glue down be a better bet in our scenario? We saw some products that could be click install or glue install. If we chose one of those, which type of application is usually most inexpensive Including installation?
The stores we’ve been visiting have told us that the manufacturer’s warranty will include labor if we use the store’s installers. If we have our contractor’s installer do it, the warranty will be different and only cover the product. Is this true?
Companies—At a certain price/quality level are products from all manufacturers essentially the same, and should we make our choice based on which design most appeals to us?

This is so confusing and such a big purchase (moneywise and appearance wise) that we want to make sure we make the right decision. Thanks much for any input you have.

I've also cross posted on Houzz under Design Dilemmas.

Featured Answer

PRO

Carpet One Columbia

7 years ago

Here's what I know:

Question 1 - You would be better off with the integrated backing. Sounds like you have a good contractor who knows the difference between flat and slope and they are addressing that. The floor will have better acoustic and thermal value let alone the advantage of being only one component. Another brand to consider would be Armstrong Rigidcore - the wear layer is better and is urethane instead of PVC. Urethane wear layers are preferred for longevity and ease of maintenance. There should be plenty of dealers who carry this and help guide you in your decision.

Question 2 - oops, I answered that in Question 1.

Question 3 - mainly a matter of appearance, design effect, desired pattern etc. Kind of lame to try to compensate for floor flatness - doesn't really work that way.

Question 4 - My opinion is that you would be better off not bonding to the substrate with adhesive. This kind of paints you into a corner if you ever have a water event. Adhesives are sensitive to moisture (always do a moisture test - even with floating, interlocking floors). I like the idea of keeping my options open if I ever need to remove that floor for any reason (reconfigure the space, water event, etc.) and not have to deal with the adhesive issue. You might get me to bend a little if you wanted to use the Armstrong Fastac LVT - it sticks - you can pull it up - and it leaves no residue at all.

Question 5 - I doubt that - but read their warranties. It is true that if you write one check for material and installation there is no finger pointing as to who is responsible. I have seen some pretty wormy circumstances when one check is written for material and one is written for installation. It really leaves you holding the bag at the end if the deal goes bad.

Question 6 - not necessarily - there is no shortcut and there is no one product that is the solution for the entire population. Every situation is different and you have got to find someone who knows what the heck they are talking about.

By the way, the only manufacturers that are offering spiffs to sales people that I am aware of are Shaw and Mohawk.

Hope this helps.

Comments (22)

Vith
7 years ago
Not an expert but slight slope doesn't matter, the floor just needs to be flat, as in, not large variations but one gradual slope over the whole floor is not an issue. I actually installed floating LVP over an area feathered out about 3 feet because in the kitchen was old vinyl probably asbestos so I encapsulated that with epoxy paint and it was about 1/8 higher than the rest of the area so I feathered it out and have not noticed any problems whatsoever.

Probably your largest decision is in the wear layer. LVP is usually cut with a utility knife and square straight edge then snapped. So it can be scratched just like a wood floor. The LVP I installed has a few scratches on the sheen from moving the stove around. The wood grain pattern of the floor is still great, just if you look at an angle and there is glare you can see some scuffs. Anyhow, I recommend felt bottoms for all furniture on the LVP and including the stove. Felt bottoms also make it easy to slide the stove out for cleaning behind and underneath.
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
Vith--Thanks for taking the time to relate your experience with LVP. It is good to know that a gradual slope would be okay. Our contractor just told me that he plans to jack hammer out the large section that is somewhat elevated and then pour new and will also use a floor leveler. This is obviously not a brand new house with brand new, level floors.

I think we have decided that it is worth it to us to pay for a floor with an excellent wear layer.
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L W
7 years ago
I have done research for LVT flooring. Finally, (oh, what the heck) placed cortec with cork backing in short strips on an entry from the garage on a tile floor. Pros: warm and soft to bare feet. Able to install click ourselves. looks good, initially. Cons: It will not hold up like solid wood. The fine print states you can re-wax it at some point! With two transition pieces and the purchase of full boxes, the cost came closer to $450 without labor for 60 sq ft. In a basement, I would place the most cost effective product for moisture environments that could be replaced if needed. Again, I have considered Adura LVT by Mannington for a family room on the main floor. Cost is a third less than wood and 50% more than carpet. Note 1/4 inch plywood would be added to current OSB for LVT. I would suggest a sit down with the warranty literature. There is potential LVT will need repair or replacement sooner than I would like. In forum for basements there are threads regarding flooring that may be helpful.
suser123
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
My Mom works at a flooring shop and recommended Moduleo. We like the Castle Oak. Going this weekend to see samples in person. All the pictures she sent me looked great. They have installed quite a bit in residential and commercial places. Only time will tell but no problems yet on it.
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
LW--Thanks for relaying your experience with Coretec. Do you recallif you bought Coretec One or Coretec Plus? Ouch! Thanks is a lot of money for 60 sq. ft. This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for. And, I'll have to check out the basements forum on this topic.

gpeach1--You've got to be from Georgia! I'm going to also check out Moduleo. I've heard of it but haven't seen it in person.

Real comments like these help so much because one never knows if the recommendations in the flooring stores are due to an actual great product or great bonuses for employees who sell these particular products.

I appreciate the help.
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
Carpet 1--Thanks for the extensive reply.

I do have a couple more questions regarding wear layer and its construction and durability if you have time.

We are looking for more top of the line so want a 20 mil or higher wear layer, so Armstrong Fastac is eliminated because it is only 12 mil. Above you mentioned that urethane is a better wear layer than PVC. Is PVC the same as poly?

Different products from different companies that I am looking at have different wear layers. Is one of these definitely better than others for scratch resistance and durability?

a. 20 mil UV acrylic

b. 20 mil with 2 coats of acrylic finish

c. 20 mil urethane with ceramic bead

d. 20 mil urethane plus with aluminum oxide particles

e. 20 mil ceramic bead in poly

Also, thanks for the info about which manufacturers are currently offering spiffs.

20 mil
PRO
Carpet One Columbia
7 years ago
Okay - if you want the 20 mil, you should look at Armstrong's commercial product - Natural Creations "I-Set" (commercial version of fastac). For scratch resistance and durability, I would choose d. and c. in that order - if it were me.
jellytoast
7 years ago
Carpet One, regarding your answer to OP's question 5 ... are you saying that people should avoid independent flooring installers altogether and only use an installer that is employed by or subbed out by a flooring store? That didn't help THIS GUY much. Maybe they can't point a finger at anyone else if things go south, but that doesn't guarantee that the store is actually going to claim responsibility or resolve any issues to the customer's satisfaction. Sure I think it's possible to get a good installation from a store, but I also think there are plenty of good independent installers who stand behind their work.
PRO
Carpet One Columbia
7 years ago
jellytoast: Not saying that at all - It's just a well known industry secret that vendor's who sell material only and offer no service or support for their products, are pretty much off the hook because they have cleverly shifted all of the liability to the installer and owner - neither one having a clue - until the you know what hits the fan. They clock a steady 10-30% gross profit margin all day long with no liability - casually extending a well manicured middle finger to the customer when there is a problem and then pointing that same finger at the installer (hey, that's kind of a funny visual). Most installers do not perform all of the required (by manufacturers) pre-installation testing and documentation to protect themselves or the homeowner and "material only" vendors know that.

With hard surface, it is not unusual for the labor to exceed the cost of material, and if it needs replaced you can easily triple that cost. So, my advice is: if you hire your own independent contractor - you better check references, check insurance coverages, check qualifications, and you might even ask them to tell you about a time they had to replace a floor because they didn't install it correctly - if they say never, then ask if they can walk on water and if they can, then they probably never made a mistake.

I have a feeling your "THIS GUY" example probably wrote two checks. It looks like they have cleverly separated the material and service portion of their business. The biggest red flag was only a one year warranty on labor. Everything looks good when it is new and it is relatively easy to get shoddy work to last a year before it is discovered.
jellytoast
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
That's possible Carpet One, but I was going by his statement, "We thought by hiring someone associated with the store, we were in good hand. But it's not the case. We didn't "refuse to pay for floor preparation", we simply didn't know."

I've seen flooring stores advertise ridiculously cheap prices for flooring, including installation, and I wonder how can they possibly make any money like that? I figure they either give a blow-and-go install or make a profit on "extras" like prep. My neighbor used the installer provided by her flooring store and her lamps and tables vibrate when she walks over portions of her floor. She just didn't know any better and had no idea that was even a possibility. No resolution and she's just living with it.

I do agree with you on checking, checking, checking! :-)
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
I'm the OP and have another quick follow up question.

Yesterday I looked at the Karndean 20 mil line of flooring and liked it. I couldn't find anything on their website or in the printed material I got about the construction of the wear layer, so I called the company. The rep I spoke to told me that the entire product including the wear layer is vinyl. Could this be correct?
PRO
Carpet One Columbia
7 years ago
I am no longer familiar with Karndean. You may need to call back and clarify what that means and why it is a benefit to you.
needinfo1 thanked Carpet One Columbia
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
I did call Karndean back and found out that their product is all vinyl with a PVC wear layer. On top of that is a UV cured coat. Their tech guy told me that they have steered away from the coatings with beads because they tend to go into the floor rather than protecting the floor. Could be sales hype; I don't know.

In case others are reading this thread in the future, I am going to go back and put names by the different products with the different types of wear layer.

a. 20 mil UV acrylic--Armstrong Rigid Core

b. 20 mil with 2 coats of acrylic finish--Coretec Plus

c. 20 mil urethane with ceramic bead--Modin from Flooret (except this is really a 40 mil, not 20, wearlayer)

d. 20 mil urethane plus with aluminum oxide particles--Armstrong Best Lynx

e. 20 mil ceramic bead in poly--Floorte

f. 20 mil poly UV cured--Karndean
jennlehr
7 years ago
i almost bought LVT and at the last minute after feeling it installed in the showroom i changed my mind. this is why. The feel of it has a certain matte feeling that your feet get stuck on it. especially with rubber soles. your feet dont glide across the floor as you walk. You kind of feel like you have to shuffle almost. Its hard to explain. Why not look at Italian porcelain that looks like wood. They have some beautiful things now. It may not be warm but its sure waterproof!!! and you do it once and done!! you can warm up the space with area rugs.
needinfo1 thanked jennlehr
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
jennlehr--We live in Minnesota & I just can't imagine an entire basement floor of ceramic/porcelain. Even with rugs it would seem quite cold IMO.
Vith
7 years ago
not everyone likes slippery floors, clumsy people and elderly for example
needinfo1
Original Author
7 years ago
We ended up with the online retailer Flooret's Modin line and have been very impressed so far. I am the OP.
suser123
7 years ago
Which one did you put in? Any pics? We are between flooret and moduleo. Hard to find real home setting pictures.
julieste
7 years ago
We installed Noret which has ended up having an overall lighter effect than I would have anticipated but which is good for us since this is a basement installation and we wanted a lighter color floor. . We had samples of all the lighter to mid-toned colors. Of our samples this was the second darkest; I think we would have also been fine with the Arden which is a little darker. One of these days I have to take some photos but can't do it now.
Karen Lee
5 years ago
https://www.houzz.com/user/julieste-gw What did you end up going with? I am feeling like one of the most important factors is what the coating is made up of and love that you have all of them listed but only see one comment about opinions on what is best. I am leaning between Coretec and Modin and understand modin has a better wear layer but also a better coating. I think one you listed has an even better coating the Armstrong.

Any additional info you gained on the differences between the type of coatings and their pros and cons?
Biologyis Science
3 months ago
For anyone years later who is looking for the same info:

I recently left flooring as a store manager and sales rep.

First, understand that NO flooring is scratch-proof. They are scratch-resistant.

I know someone else recommended staying away from it in case your basement floods but the truth of the matter is that if it floods and you use your homeowner's insurance (recommended), they will insist on the entire floor being replaced no matter what you have installed.

You can choose a commercial grade if you are really worried about the flooring holding up to abuse. They are often glued down.

Your installer will probably want to skimcoat the floor or use a leveler. This is good practice.

Urethane with ceramic bead and urethane plus with aluminum oxide particles are the strongest choices right now but there are some higher ratings Like AC 5 which is stronger than say a 20 mil wear layer. There are also a few in the 30 mil wear layer range.

You will often save money hiring your own installer because stores make money from the cost of installation. Hire your own and have them buy your materials. If they have an established relationship with the store, they will often get a significant discount on your materials. The store I worked for had a 55% profit margin but when they sold to installers/contractors they lowered it to 30-35%. Stores have to make a profit and so do installers. You may save some cash if your installer charges a smaller profit margin.

Ask for a Certificate of Insurance on the installer. If their installation is bad or unfinished, their insurance has to cover it. Stores should have a warranty to cover poor workmanship as well. The manufacturer will cover manufacturing defects but not workmanship.

Before you hire someone, ask if they do moisture testing and what is their procedure for it.

ALWAYS have a moisture test done and documented when they come out to measure. If it is too high they should recommend what to do to get it and keep it at the appropriate level. ALWAYS have it done again before installation. This is the number one thing that causes manufacturers to deny a claim.

Any LVP experts out there?--Want unbiased, real info & not sales hype

Carpet One Columbia

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