I guess if there is no longer a stigma attached to thrift shopping then the more affluent will shop second-hand. I didn't realize that it was now acceptable for "well-offs" to shop for used stuff. I've been doing it out of necessity for YEARS.

It's funny because where we live (NE Ohio) is very economically depressed, and the Walmart is buzzing...ALWAYS!

I can only speak for myself, but the evil Amazon is one of my shopping meccas. Free shipping with Prime, fast delivery, great selection. I live 3 miles from the largest mall in Maine, and haven't been inside its doors for years.

I find the best prices online and have furnished my home with wonderful Craigslist and eBay finds. I even bought my Lexus RX350 last summer through Craigslist, and it's been perfect. I don't care for crowds, and always compare prices when I shop online, and when we're in the midst of a winter blizzard, shopping from my perfect CL Hancock Moore leather office chair is the way to go! :-)

I wouldn't think shopping used would be enough to close retail. I don't know many people who do. I think prices in general are so high that people would more likely be purchasing less or doing without. The quality of goods also keeps getting worse. Expensive junk is worse yet when you are looking for something. I used to love to shop but now it seems like a waste of time as I come home with nothing. I wonder who buys or what happens to all that horrible stuff.

You can buy lots of items online without seeing them first. Larger selection. The price is often better. Free shipping. It's very convenient.

I think that with more and more people becoming computer savvy, it's just easier to shop online. Even if you have to pay for shipping, you still save on gas and possibly parking fees if you go to a mall.

Clothing can be particularly hard. I know I waste a lot of money with shipping, but as a petite size I don't have a choice. I was surprised to see that Lord and Taylor discontinued their petite second.

As far as prices, I almost never pay full price. My favorite stores, Loft and Anne Taylor, keep me posted constantly about their sales. You can even get a price adjustment if the price goes down even lower. Everything happens right in front of me on my computer.

All I know is they are building a brand new *large* goodwill store in our old neighborhood...the parking lot at the old one is always full.

I suspect there is a bigger impact from e-tail though considering that amazon is now larger than walmart.

Young mothers in this area favor buying used clothing, toys and accessories at resale shops. I've delivered children's clothing to a local resale shop and it's always crowded. Everything is clean, on hangers or folded on shelves, and organized similar to a retail store. Wise moms take advantage of like new items for 80% off retail price.

At the mall near me every single interesting store is gone. All but a handful of stores are selling clothes or shoes for women in the 20-30ish age group. Maybe no other population group feels that they can spend the money?

Nearly every mall around here is owned by Westfield's and they are all the same big stores, same mall "experience".

I don't understand why the mall owners don't understand that the same big places on line (I have to buy on line, no one stocks petites) and in their malls are just not interesting...

On top of that AIDS wiped out a whole generation of designers in the 80s who, had they lived, would have been at the top of their game now, so clothing (and a lot of design) is now "retro," not original. The best and brightest artists seem to be going into computer animation and industrial design.

I expect the now crippling rents to drive many of the bigger stores out of business. Have you ever seen a list of the costs to run a large commercial space? Very high overhead....

The mall by me wants to add 50,000 sq ft of high end food and clothing, I don't think the population base will support it. They never asked what we/ the community wanted. They have swallowed their own marketing department's hype that they can drive people into their mall's stores....

It may hurt retail but it won't ever eliminate it, obviously, as all the second hand stuff must come from somewhere. It has been socially acceptable to shop "vintage" for awhile. Unfortunately in my area the Goodwill, Salvation Army and church thrift shops have poor quality offerings and the craigslist is risible, so I don't think many middle class people shop those places.

If it has an impact it's a drop in the bucket compared to Amazon and other online retailers. I don't know that second hand shopping is all that common with my crowd. I got quite a few great furniture buys over the last year when I needed some things after I moved. When I've mentioned to people that certain pieces were CL finds they act like they've never used it. I have heard people mention some higher end clothing consignment shops but if anyone is shopping at Goodwill they're not talking about it.

The goodwill and thrift shops located here are full of wise, upper middle class shoppers.

The Goodwill store merchandise usually reflects the median income where located.

I don't know anyone my age who wants to shop in an enclosed mall. I go on rare occasions when I don't have time to wait for something to be shipped. Customer service is so lacking it feels like you're disturbing someone to cash out your purchase. The coupons & sales that draw you in often don't include most items or prestige brands. The retail prices seem to be set exorbitantly high to account for "huge" price reductions during sales and you feel taken paying full price for anything. It's altogether an experience that doesn't appeal to my growing demographic.

My 13-yr. old step granddaughter loves going to the mall with friends. They don't have much of their own money to spend, though ;)

I think retail shops are going to have to step up their game to appeal against the pluses of online shopping.

I don't buy much second-hand. No clothing. A furniture piece or decor item I come across is about it.

People just aren't buying that much "stuff" anymore, I think. They're getting by with less, getting second hand from family and friends, dumpster diving . . . about the only thing the milennials I know want is new electronic gadgets every two years. Plus quite a few of them are still living with parents and grandparents, so I dunno what they are going to do after those folks die . . . just stay put I guess. And yes, Amazon Prime. But like I said in the previous thread, Amazon Prime is just wiping up after the decline of retail, retail where I have lived was dying anyway. Folks are still willing to shop for unique experiences of seeing real things, hence the opening of these upscale "hometown-ey" mallish things in the upscale neighborhoods, like Peddlers Village and Saucon Valley Mall back where I used to live. But where I live now, geez louise, it is deader than dead. Nothing seems to be able to stay open as a storefront. And YES, rents out the wazoo are a problem. Don't understand how rents can stay high with rows of empty storefronts.

One of my BFF always shops the larger thrift stores for clothes, etc. Has for years. I've been with her a few times, but never found anything. Like kswl2, I don't think ours are as good as those in larger cities. Her fashion style is very eclectic/bohemian, unlike mine. I always donate to one specific store that has a children's home. Plus, I really do not want to buy used clothing.

I've been shopping/buying antique/vintage pieces locally (and when traveling) for 35 years. Love etsy and Amazon. I don't frequent home stores that sell new items since I like vintage. I like the sense of history and character/charm these pieces add to our home.

We always buy new cars, but DHs second vehicle was "used" in the sense the manager drove it for a few months. It had never been titled and was still under warranty. We keep our cars for years, but if we wanted "new" more often/every few years, I wouldn't be opposed to buying certified pre-owned.

What's sort of ironic about me not liking to shop is we own three shopping centers. While we do have some retail, most of our tenants are service oriented or restaurants.

As for the original question, I think larger stores are hurting because everyone got use to them having sales all. the. time the past decade. So now, people do not/will not pay full price for anything. In many cases, quality has decreased. I read a good article about this several years ago. This isn't it, but a good read.

I would rather just go to the store and buy something but it seems like I can not find what I need in a store. The selection just is not there anymore. It's amazing to me too is that the stores are ginormous but yet when you go to buy something, they don't have it. Drives me nuts. I'm then forced to shop on line. The savings is also undeniable with on line shopping.

ETA: Something else to consider as far as retail stores hurting for business. Maybe it's the fact that there are retail stores on every corner and every place in between nowadays. Remember back, not so far ago, that all we had was a mall and maybe a Kmart or Target or Walmart. Now we have stores everywhere. Seriously, maybe it's just too much and not enough business to go around? Same for restaurants, they are everywhere!

Yes, that's why I have such a hard time figuring out why rents are so high for retail space.

I don't know what you consider "high for retail space." imo, larger and out of state companies are more likely to have higher rent psf in shopping centers and strip malls. Our shopping centers are less psf than centers right across the highway. Ours stay full, theirs do not. Maybe they don't care, being so large. But for us, happy tenants equals long term tenants. We have many tenants in our two oldest centers that have been with us from the first year. It's better to keep good tenants than have empty spaces, which equals lost rent and incentives to new tenants. If a good tenant has a problem for a month or so, we will work with them. Large companies are not inclined to do so. Another we bought a few years ago before it went into foreclosure. It has all national tenants, which is nice.

Of course location plays a big part in it as well. Ours are in decent size cities, but are not the upscale outdoor shopping/open malls that charge 10x more (and have Pottery Barn, Bed Bath and Beyond, etc).

Good topic! I rarely go to our local mall any more & the last time I was there I was struck by how easy it is now to find a parking place right up close to the main entrance. I recall that never being the case in the past. Marketplace did a report on this situation as well...

Department stores face an uncertain future

But you know, I think about how it used to be many years ago, when my mom was a girl, you went to a department store & picked out what you wanted, then left empty-handed & it would be delivered to your home. Same for groceries: people could phone the grocer, butcher, etc. & have their purchase delivered, rather than go get it themselves. Seems like our new reality harkens back to that way of shopping.

So many interesting and enlightening thoughts in this thread. Thank you all for sharing them!

I wholeheartedly agree on the overall decline in the quality of new goods. TJMaxx has been rather disappointing over the past 3-4 years. When I was a grad student 20 years ago, TJMaxx was my place to go for quality clothes for a bargain price. I always favored natural materials like wool or silk, which were too expensive for me in department stores. But I could always find nice and decently made silk skirts and wool jackets at TJMaxx. Now this kind of quality has completely disappeared from TJMaxx. Everything is polyester or acrylic, and a lot of it is poorly made fast fashion, which I strongly dislike.

Now I find that higher end consignment and thrift stores often offer the most value for the dollar re: quality. Of course, the new merchandise retail is not going to disappear, but it is going to change a lot.

There are some interesting upper class culture trends in my city. Traditionally, the wealthy Portlanders have been averse to flaunting their fortunes. In fact, some wealthiest neighborhoods can be pretty hard to see even if you happen to drive right through them. They are hidden in the forests in the hills on the West side, and all a passerby can see is lots of trees, trees, trees and narrow roads winding through the woodlands. No gated communities, either.

Now this culture of low-key affluence has been augmented by new trends of environmental consciousness, mindfulness and holistic lifestyle. Manicured lawns and Cadillacs aren't considered cool in many affluent neighborhoods. Instead, Priuses, chicken coops and organic vegetable beds in front yards are popular with the younger well-off crowd that buys houses for close to $1M in the historical neighborhoods.

Shopping used is often pegged in right next to organic gardens and compost bins. People with means are willing to pay higher prices for organic groceries at New Seasons supermarkets. Wholesome and organic is the way to live. Chemical-free yards, uncluttered homes, solar panels on the roofs, rain barrels in the yard, nature hikes on weekends and such. Buying quality used stuff is perceived as a savvy way to use one's money. The emphasis is not on flashing one's wealth but on being smart about using one's assets.

I know an affluent family who bought an old house in an expensive pedestrian-friendly neighborhood. The husband is a tech professional who works from home and the wife is a MD. They put in high-end kitchen appliances but most of their living and dining room furniture are vintage finds from CL or consignment stores. They have expensive bikes but only one car - a 10 y.o. Subaru Outback. They prefer to bike to a neighborhood New Seasons supermarket. Their favorite vacation destination is Europe. Their home is tchotchkes-free, airy and sophisticated. Their son is going to the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, BC. They will pay hefty tuition but they also perceive it as a better value for the dollar than colleges of the same level in the U.S. UBC has been ranked among the top 20 public schools worldwide in 2015.

Remarkably enough, Portland, OR has been listed as #8 in the top 10 hottest luxury real estate markets worldwide in the 2016 report from Christie's:

Portland has the world's 8th 'hottest' market for luxury real estate: report

Our malls are very busy, with people waiting till their buzzer goes off at the Cheesecake Factory. But really the malls are often packed ... And we also have several vibrant downtown shopping areas in local towns, which we enjoy frequenting and valiantly strive to keep in business. ; )

I like buying used or vintage pieces because it's often a good way to find something unusual. There are nice things on our local Craigslist, but they are priced like nice things too. I recall a chest of drawers I liked, no special provenance, was 1000 and no negotiating. It's relatively rare that I find something there that I want and need, that is also a bargain.

My girls have been going to Goodwill for 5 years or so ... It started when their Quaker school suggested it for costumes for their school plays. We have several very good locations near us with good stuff, often new w tags. The used stuff we wash immediately when we get home. Some of their very favorite items have been from GW,

Generally, the very high end malls are holding up well. And there are a lot of healthy local strip malls. I think the regional malls that haven't had a face lift and have seen one or two anchors go dark are the worst. And there are surely too many "outlets". But a lot of retailers have learned they do need a bricks and mortar presence in addition to online. To me, it's similar to movie theaters. They won't disappear, but we need less of them and the ones that fare very well have to really make it an experience.

Mtn, our mall with the Cheesecake Factory also does pretty well, especially on the weekends. When I went a couple of weeks back to the Apple Store to get my phone looked at on a weeknight, most of the mall was fairly empty except for the Apple Store which was slammed. But overall, it is very busy there on a Sat and is also popular with out of towners. We've gone to Lowe's the past few weekends, and it has also been slammed in the garden dept. So, there is no shortage of people shopping.

We also go to estate sales and auctions and have bought some very nice things from those. I enjoy my well-made American furniture.

Our neighborhood Nextdoor app also has some good things advertised, and it is more closed than CL. I just went to look at a home bar set today, but, unfortunately, it is way too big for our space.

I live in a rural area. My husband loves Goodwill and Salvation Army and visits every time he's close to one (the nearest is 20 miles away). But I don't go or buy much there. When I do go, I see persons of lower socio-economic backgrounds, persons who can't afford to shop anywhere else (people that you feel like you should pay for their items for them). I'm pretty sure there are no affluent shoppers, unless they are very well disguised.

My husband buys every single golf club he can find (he's a club hoarder) and various other odds and ends. Once in a great while I will buy a kitchen item.

I do buy some things sometimes from our local Swap Shop on Facebook - usually items from people I know personally (we live in a VERY small community).

Resale shopping might be a regional thing. Mom lived in Florida, and she always found good stuff. Lots of people moving in from up north, then divesting. SoCal, not so much. People in affluent areas may have help who get first dibs.

I doubt it's second hand that is hurting retail. As mentioned before, I think it's a proliferation of garbage materials. And in my town, (pop 160K) we have two enclosed malls each with a Macy's, one has a Sears, the other Pennys and Nordstrom, and a new outdoor mall within 10 miles. There are 2 Targets, 3 Walmarts, four regional superstores, countless mini-malls, dozens of furniture stores, mattress stores, Tuesday Morning, 2 TJ Maxx, 3 Ross Dress For Less, and countless others. We also have 2 Lowes and 2 Home Depots. And virtually the same stuff in every store. The only place to find original things is downtown at the independent stores.

My biggest gripe is amount of product at the stores. Clothing in particular. I cannot find clothing in my size, because the stores usually only carry one or two in that size and half a dozen each in the smaller sizes. When the size I need sells out the fastest, you'd think they'd stock more of that size! Plus the selections are garbage.

But when I go to Goodwill (and we have 4 of those!) I ALWAYS find nice, quality seperates in my size. Oddly enough, I also find lots of NWT smaller sized items that the stores dump off! I know that it's very fashionable in my area to shop at Goodwill. I have even seen some 'boutique' second hand thrift stores-where they glean the top of the line goodies & vintage items and sell them at the special Salvation Army & other charity thrift shops.

I have virtually furnished and/or decorated my home and yard with second hand items. Mattresses and upholstered furniture being the exception. Lamps, tables, even rugs I've gotten from CL and thrift stores-and most are well branded. Even yard sales have turned up Waterford for pennies on the dollar.

I hate buying retail when I can save money and buy it much cheaper (and helping with my personal goal of reduce, reuse, recycle). I do draw the line at buying intimates, sleepwear and swimsuits 2nd hand. But I've gotten great new shoes at amazing bargains. And for those who get queasy at the thought of buying used clothing-chances are the items you buy in the store have been tried on, and therefore used, too.

MtnRdRedux:

"Generally, the very high end malls are holding up well. And there are a
lot of healthy local strip malls. I think the regional malls that
haven't had a face lift and have seen one or two anchors go dark are
the worst. And there are surely too many "outlets". But a lot of
retailers have learned they do need a bricks and mortar presence in
addition to online. To me, it's similar to movie theaters. They won't
disappear, but we need less of them and the ones that fare very well
have to really make it an experience."

So true! In my city there are two big shopping centers (Washington Square and Bridgeport Village) with high-end stores on the mostly affluent West side, and they are bustling. On the East side, where most middle to lower income Portlanders live, the picture is mixed. The Lloyd Center, a large mall in NE Portland, has recently lost its Nordstrom store.

It looks like neighborhood garage sales are a distinct feature of the Portland culture. The most famous is the Annual Eastmoreland Garage Sale. It's a big, merry event with hot dog vendors, lemonade stands, and LOTS of people. DH and I absolutely love it. Last year they had about 120 homes participating, I think. Every time we went there we ran into an acquaintance or two, sometimes from the opposite side of the city!

Here's a blog post about 2014 Annual Eastmoreland Neighborhood Garage Sale. The blogger put links to her posts on other annual garage sales at the bottom of the page. DH and I usually do the Eastmoreland and Laurelhurst annual garage sales. Eastmoreland, Laurelhurst and Irvington are beautiful and affluent old neighborhoods, although not the super-wealthiest ones.

Just came across this article: Portland Tribune on shopping malls

An interesting piece on revamping the shopping mall concept. However, I'd like to point out that this passage applies chiefly to Portlanders with higher than median incomes:

"On one side there’s the Portland consumer ethic, in which shoppers
prefer handcrafted goods to mass-produced ones, small shops over large
box stores, and commercial streets such as Northwest 23rd, Hawthorne and
Division to sprawling suburban complexes."

Northwest 23rd is lined with pricey boutique stores!

We have two malls. The oldest one is now becoming outdoor shops. You actually couldn't walk the mall if you wanted to as the one anchor store, Macy's closed and is being replaced by a home decor shop. Walmart and Kohl's are the other two anchors and Walmart parking lot is filled. All the interior shops are gone. The other one used to be busy but that is no longer the case. The three main anchors are still there but I predict those stores will close in the next five years.

I think that Amazon is mostly responsible for the decline in retail sales. I know in my own shop that was the case. I had potential customers that would keep me on the phone asking technical questions. They would get the answers and then add that they were going to shop for the item at Amazon. The main focus of my biz was always b2b but as the trend for retail customers to flock to Amazon increased I pushed even harder to expand the b2b portion of my business. As a business owner you have to change with the times or you are left in the dust. I think Amazon was a great motivator to shift me increasingly to commercial sales. They appreciated the technical knowledge and customer service and were so much easier to deal with than the general public.

I think one of the problems I see is that a lot of time, when talking about retail, numbers are based on growth. At some point, an economy predicated upon growth is going to reach a saturation point and the type of growth that was seen in the past simply cannot be sustained.

I do not think the second hand market is a big threat to retail because it is so variable. There are plenty of people who want what they want now and are unwilling to take the time to look for it second hand. There is also a lot of inconsistency. A lot of people on craigslist tend to overvalue what they have (just because someone paid x amount of dollars at Pier 1 does not mean it is worth a premium used). Not to mention, if a given market area does not have high quality goods available new, there are not many high quality goods that are going to make it to the second-hand stores.

My biggest problem with retail is the value. Most stores are asking for too much money for things of rather poor quality. Macy's, Kohl's, Dillards, etc. have quality that is only a notch above Old Navy. Stores that expect over $100 for a pair of boots made from fake leather are somewhat delusional. Yes, some will pay it, but there are many like me who will just do without.

Tishtoshnm:

"I think one of the problems I see is that a lot of time, when talking
about retail, numbers are based on growth. At some point, an economy
predicated upon growth is going to reach a saturation point and the type
of growth that was seen in the past simply cannot be sustained."

Excellent point! Many American households are already brimming over with stuff.

Some interesting stats from Canada below. I couldn't find any stats on second-hand market for the U.S., though.

CBC News: Kijiji-sponsored survey found that Canadian used goods market was worth $36B in 2015

Retail E-commerce sales reached C$25.37B ($22.97B) in 2014 in Canada

In Canada the volume of the used goods market seems to be about the same as the online retail.

In the U.S. the e-commerce sales were about $305B in 2014 The estimate was that e-commerce accounted only for 6.5% of total retail sales in 2014 in the U.S. Wish I could also find stats for the used goods market in the U.S. - it would be interesting to compare them!

All economies are predicated on growth, because businesses need to grow to be able to attract investors and because growth is the norm. Why is growth the norm? One, the population is growing, and two, in normal economic times we have inflation.

Keep in mind though, normal growth is quite modest. Recently economists were happy when consumer spending hit a 2.7% annual rate; that was considered strong.

No. Goodwill Industries in Portland processes so much in terms of goods that the company runs two OUTLETS. I am not kidding. Items at the outlets are sold by the pound. I used to wonder where it all came from... then I visited Costco.

I am always on the lookout for good antique and vintage items. Many are higher quality and can look new with some cleaning. So much of the new stuff isn't made to last. I think it's on purpose. I heard never never buy the lowest cost item in Target because that's the one that will be the blender that will only last 6 months. As far as the clothing, most of it comes out of the same sweatshops overseas and then goes to different stores. It looks about the same but prices vary. They get all the same fabrics and trims and everything's about the same. The swap meet seller has tops that look almost the same as Nordstrom Rack in the outlet mall. The only difference is price.

After the economy crashed, I noticed the thrift stores were picked over. Now it's mostly junk unless it's leftovers from an estate sale or someone is moving and gave everything away. The decent stuff is on CL now.