I would pick glue over inspection if I were him.

So your contractor has to agree to paying $500 for the inspection, plus the cost for a reinstall should the inspector not rule in his favor? My guess is that he will say no to the inspection and save himself not only the $500, but the possibility of a lot more. What possible incentive does he have to say yes?

A NWFA inspector is independent of any installer "approval" for any inspection. I don't know what type of inspector you are considering, but this is where I'd start. http://www.nwfa.org/cp-inspector.aspx 

I can guarantee that it is installer error that created the main issue.

Who is HSS? You need someone completely independent from the flooring company and the contractor so they are objective, have no conflict of interest and there is no collusion.

HSS is the company that handles assigning contractors, collecting payment, for Floor and Decor. We got their info at the installation section at Floor and Decor. If you visit Floor and Decor's website, under Installation, this website came up: https://pros.myhomeprojectcenter.com/how-it-works/easy-as-1-2-3/

HSS said they will pay for the inspection. I asked if the inspector is nwfa certified, they said yes. But the fact that they'll pay for the inspection does make me wonder if the inspection will be unbiased.

Engage the services of an inspector yourself if you want this resolved. All of this concern with the minutia of pennies while the dollars slip through your hands is the primary cause of the issue in the first place. Going with a cheap seconds retailer like F&D and not paying to have the floor properly prepped is the root of every single problem you are experiencing. Granted, the installer should have refused to do the job unless you paid for the prep, but you'd have moved on and found someone who would do what you wanted at the price you wanted. There are always Cheap Carries out there that end up costing much much more in the long term. Take this lesson to heart. You don't get what you won't pay for. A quality job is never cheap materials and cheap labor. You cannot have expectations to the contrary after the fact.

Hi Sophie, the lesson we've learned is: home remodeling is a grey area where there is very limited regulation, unlike building or extension. Therefore the quality of the contractors vary big deal. When it's a less regulated area, it's on the customers to do the research and find the right people. We thought by hiring someone associated with the store, we were in good hand. But it's not the case.

We didn't "refuse to pay for floor preparation", we simply didn't know. And we trusted our contractor. Too bad they are not trustworthy!

Of course the consumer expects the flooring contractor will prep first, as necessary - and price the job accordingly. If the company doesn't do that, it's on them. They went into business, it is up to them to spec and perform their jobs per industry standards.

Once an installer starts the installation, he has taken ownership that the foundation is sound. He owns the outcome of his poor decisions or lack of knowledge.

A lot of assumptions and blaming the consumer going on. As is the usual with certain posters.

This is just one more story that proves not how the customer is responsible for everything that goes wrong in the construction industry but that there is a need for more, more, more regulation by the government, along with serious educational requirements like other occupational fields.

Ditto that snookums2

" but that there is a need for more, more, more regulation by the government..." Yes, because the government's done such an excellent job with the Post Office and Amtrack.

I got a call recently about loose floor tile. I had the customer bounce a golf ball and she told me half her tile were loose. My instincts told me to have her shovel it out, but I foolishly stopped by and she talked me into injecting a small area. All was going well, but then I heard it.

"Snap! "Snap!" "Snap!"

The glue I was injecting was popping the "secure" adjacent tile that had passed the golf ball sound test. I just about flipped.

Eight tubes later, I got out of there. There is no reason injection might not loosen "secure" boards here. Beware.

Thanks Joseph, I'm not clear though on how injecting under the hollow tiles would pop the adjacent secure tiles?

"" but that there is a need for more, more, more regulation by the government..." Yes, because the government's done such an excellent job with the Post Office and Amtrack."

I don't see where that would have anything to do with instituting strict regulations and training to protect consumers.

Lu Yan, my guess would be that the tile story isn't relevant either.

There's a hardwood flooring site around that has a forum if you want more detailed information.

I haven't heard back from HSS or my contractor since last Tuesday. I then emailed Floor and Decor last week, and was assigned a case number. Said I'll be contacted in a couple of days. I also filed a BBB complaint, and got an auto reply saying I'll be contacted in a couple of days. Will see whom I hear from first.

"Thanks Joseph, I'm not clear though on how injecting under the hollow tiles would pop the adjacent secure tiles?"

Lu Yan:

Neither was I until it happened to me. I visit sites where some of the best in the business participate and no one ever said this had happened to them. Obviously the slightest pressure from the injected adhesive was enough to break the "secure" tile free. I don't know why this couldn't happen with a wood floor.

A little update: After I created a case with Floor and Decor, they forwarded my case back to HSS, where the same lady called me (Duh!)

According to the lady, the installer turned down an inspection, saying it's not needed because he already knows it's glue application issue. I asked about the concrete floor not being flat, the lady said the installer (now the partner of the original guy, the original guy is no longer working due to health issues) will check that when he comes to my house.

Now I would like to know is, can one check the flatness of the concrete floor when it's already been covered by 5/8" thick wood boards? Thanks everyone who's been providing feedback and suggestions.

No, it's all covered over now.

The conflict of interest here is too strong. I would get an independent flooring inspector in for an opinion and advice.

That's what I felt. The retired installer never whipped out any measuring tool to measure when he was in my house. And he never even attempted to do that. And the floor is covered with boards. Why all of a sudden he concluded that it was not the flatness of the sub-floor, but glue application? Eyeballed? Or, conflict of interest, like you said?

But I'm also not thrilled about having an inspection. Aside from having to pay 600 bucks, even if I do that, I might face two options where none is entirely satisfactory:

1. rip boards above big hollow spots, apply more glue, put them back. This means the boards lose the tongues. Will this compromise the integrity for the long run?

2. glue injection. Will this approach hold up for decades? I don't know. Will glue harden over time, or shrink, and result in hollow again? But at least the tongues are preserved.

Lesser of two evils, I'm afraid.

Glue will shrink once and normally gets hard when it cures. If that helps at all.

The old glues would harden and get brittle. Do the new super glues get hard or stay rubbery? I'm not sure they do.

I don't know, if you were referring to the glue injected under the board. It's Bostik epoxy glue.

Epoxy gets hard. I have never heard of an epoxy not getting hard. Think JB weld, that is an epoxy. Usually epoxy is a two part mix, one part is a hardener.

The problem with the glue injection is not knowing the slope of the floor. You could pump hundreds of dollars worth of glue, epoxy or not, and still not fill the hollow spot if the glue all runs away.

Get a 4 foot level.

Oh yeah, throw way more time and money after the fact rather than on the front end where it would have done some good. And by all means don't pay for an independent report showing what the completely obvious actual problem might be because that's ''too expensive''. SMH. Penny wise and pound foolish still.

I can get an inspection, but even if the inspection says it's the subfloor not flat, it's just the beginning of the battle. I assume Floor and Decor will not just say OK I will redo everything for you, judging from how they have been handling it up to this point.

It's not just money, it is also time and emotional well being. Cannot imagine another two months spent on this. I guess I can always say It's my bad luck, and give them a low rating on Google. Hopefully other consumers can learn from my experience.

"You don't know whether this person hired cheap and bought cheap flooring.''

Yes, we do. The seller and installer is very clearly identified, and well known as being cheap low end. They sell seconds and overruns and are not any better than LL when it comes to sourcing poor quality cheepchinesecrap. The only installers that they hire are the ones that don't have the skills to make it as independents. No guessing at all needed that price was the most important criteria. And a low price--- and low price work-- was had!

"Get a 4 foot level."

Snookums2:

Just what is the OP supposed to do with a 4' level? How is a 4' level going to reveal what the subfloor is doing?

Maybe to hit the F&D salesman?

Lu Yan, if you don't want to get an independent inspection and don't want to fight with Floor and Decor to abide by the fixes suggested by the inspection (completely understandable), why not just let them inject the epoxy and see what happens? Those areas you have marked above don't look like they are large enough to need huge quantities of glue. But that epoxy is expensive so they may try getting away with using less than required.

jellytoast, you are absolutely right, they used 33 tubes to address those 3 areas in the pictures above, and not all 3 spots are entirely filled up! And that was when the installer stopped and refused to continue, because he was not happy about the $500 he had to spend on those. Complaining about $500 when I spend $13,000 on the whole thing!

Now he said he's bought another 20 units, and 20 more on the way, I don't know how much 40 units will address. The biggest hollow spot is in the dinning room ( 2 x 3 sf). Like Joseph Corlett, LLC pointed out above, nobody knows how big the void is underneath, and how much glue it will take. I'll just have to let them do it to see.

Thanks for responding to my post on the weekend. Have a great remainder of the weekend everyone!

Sophie and live_wire, you among others mentioned that Floor and Decor and LL are basically cheap suppliers, and use crummy installers, and that Lu Yan should have used a pro. I'm sure Lu Yan thought she was getting a pro who would do a decent job.

We would like to have wood floors installed in the near future and have visited several local flooring stores in the area (as well as Floor and Decor). I'm sure some are better than others, but short of reading reviews, BBB, Angies List and the like, how does a consumer know whether someone is good or not? Who (or what type of company) would you recommend?

Find a contractor with a reputation for quality first. They don't shop at box stores or seconds sellers. They shop at to the trade only wholesalers. And they will help you pick out quality, because they have the experience to do so. Quality labor will NOT BE CHEAP.

Good Friday everyone, I have another question. I recently found out that my final bill for installation is 20% higher than the estimation. The estimation is $4,800, it includes installing, removing & hauling, undercutting bricks on fireplace; the final bill only says "Install floor", it's $5,900.

I don't know what that extra $1,100 is for. I understand estimation is not the exact cost. But is 20% extra normal?

Further proof that this "installer" is not a professional. An estimation is an estimate or an educated guess. If you do not have a contract (and I do not remember and I am not reading the posts again), have him remove his flooring and you will agree not to sue him. He will make you whole (return any dollars you gave him, not paid as in order to be paid he needed to perform a service) and you start over with someone who knows what the hell he is doing...........................

Maybe it's for all that epoxy glue they needed to buy to pay for their installation error. I would not pay any "extra" charges without knowing exactly what it is I am paying for.

The bill was given to me before we found out about the hollow spots.

That was a month ago?

It was end of March, 2.5 months ago.

Unique Wood Floors, in your model room, are there hollow spots on the floor?

I can see that an estimate might not be the same as the final price, but I can't see why the final price should come as a surprise at the end of the job. Why wouldn't they discuss a change in price with you when it was clear what the scope of work would involve ... say, after demolition when the subfloor was revealed? Unless they did something that was not included in the estimated price, they shouldn't be charging you for it. And if they didn't do something that they included in the estimate ... for instance, leveling out any hollow spots ... they should be deducting that from the final bill.

first thing you need to do, is call the contractor and ask why the difference in the original est. speculating on the internet wont help

Hehe, gregmills_gw, I will. I guess at this point I'm not 100% confident about what they have to say, and trying to do my homework.

Back to the hollow spots, I talked to the owner of the installing company for the first time. His point is, after the boards were glued down, some boards contract which cause the glue to stretch thin, which creates pockets in the glue which creates the hollow sound.

Like I said, I feel bad not being able to trust him 100% based on my experience with their company up to this point, and would like to hear you guys' thoughts on this explanation.

Barbara Streisand

Now I think about it, basically his explanation is a fancy way to say: not enough glue applied.

"Now I think about it, basically his explanation is a fancy way to say: not enough glue applied."

Or he didn't take the time to prep properly and the gaps were to big.............

Definitely. I wonder what Floor and Decor have to say about their boards "contracting"!

They will say that it is a site related issue - that is what they are saying - "CLIMATE" - which they may claim they have no control over, only the homeowner is responsible for that. Wood has predictable behavior. They should, since they are professional installers, have all of the documentation regarding the ambient air conditions before and during installation as well as the rh/calcium chloride test results (whichever one they performed and you paid for - hopefully) and ph of the concrete - most professionals include that documentation or report with the final invoice to the end user and kept as long as the floor is under the manufacturer's warranty. Technically, if you wrote 2 checks, it is your responsibility to make sure that was done.

Thank you Carpet One Columbia. You were basically saying that they will probably point fingers at everything else but the installation itself. But they should account for those factors as professionally installers. Point well taken.

BTW, they have agreed to remove a couple of boards next week. What should we be looking for once the boards are up? I can think of:

check concrete floor flatness (should we prepare any measuring tools?)

check to see if enough glue on the back of the boards

... anything else?

Thanks again!

You will probably not see any adhesive on the boards that are hollow - it must be 100% - I know because we have had a few instances and there was not 100% transfer. Take pictures, measurements, whatever you think will be helpful. BTW the Eco995 is only a moisture blocking adhesive if they use the snap on trowel that comes with every bucket. Have a good weekend.

Lu Yan , yes we did have one hollow spot at the 4" tigerwood section. We had to hire another installer friend to replace 3 t o 4 boards.