Congratulations on you new home! It looks lovely.

Three quick opinions:

In the layout above you've essentially created a hallway from your front door to the back of the house right through your primary kitchen work space (sink/range.) This is bad.

The change in ceiling is a design element that is better to incorporate into your plan than ignore.

I don't see why you need a 5 foot deep island. Average island is around 42", sometimes up to around 51" (standard base cabinet + 15" overhang for seating or two base cabinets back to back.)

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Can you show us what is on the other side of the pantry? Please provide a drawing of the whole house floor plan to we can see how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house, traffic patterns, etc.

What is the distance from the wall behind the fridge to where the ceiling changes height?

Hi Ben,

The distance between where you see the opening to the front door to the ridge is like 14 feet 4 inches. We are moving the opening to the hallway to the front door over a few inches. Where the fridge is located now in the picture is set back a 3 feet, so you have about 17 feet from that back wall where there is brick/fridge to the ridge. We were incorporating the change in ceiling to where the kitchen ends. They were installing tile to that point. The opening to a room where the pantry door is located was a space that was very small that they had a small table in and you walk into it from the mudroom door of garage. The wood door you see on the wall in that room goes to mudroom into garage. This room will now become a pantry and a small 2 piece bath for guests and entry way. If you go through the opening in kitchen and go through large opening to the right, that is a formal living, which we were going to put our dining room table because we won't use it as living room. The door opening to the room from kitchen you see, will be moved over 6 inches and on the other side of that wall will be a side table of some sort to put keys etc on. I hope this helps

We essentially could move the wall where I was thinking of putting the desk back 2 feet. so the kitchen would be 17X17 if that would help. The problem is that we have two doorways into the kitchen and we can't change that. If you look at the doorway leading to the front door, take immediate right and there is a small hall that has a door to the basement, a bedroom, a full bath and a den/bedroom/office(small room).

Other issues in addition to what Benjesbride mentioned:

• The refrigerator will need at least 12" b/w it and the wall (on either side) to allow the doors to open fully (maybe a 12" wide tall pullout utility cabinet?)
• In your layout, your island only has room for 4, not 5. The two corner seats cannot share leg space
• The DW is in the path b/w the sink and refrigerator -and- b/w the range and refrigerator
• The Prep Zone is on the opposite side of the sink from the refrigerator - that means you will have quite a bit of zone-crossing - b/w the refrigerator and Prep Zone (the non-DW side of the sink) -and- b/w the refrigerator and Cooking Zone (where the range is) -- in both cases, crossing through the Cleanup Zone (over and over!)
• I can't tell how the DW relates to the range.

I think I'd eliminate one seat on the "bottom" short end of the island and put a 12" cabinet and then the DW there. Then, move the sink down to next to the DW. I would then put an 18" trash pullout next to the sink and at least a 24" wide cabinet next to the trash pullout - giving you 42" of workspace in the Prep Zone and 36" in the Cleanup Zone. That would make the island:

1.5" counter overhang + 12" cab + 24" DW + 36" sink + 18" trash + 24" cab + 1.5" counter overhang = 117"

That's 3" shorter than 10'. Before I recommend changing the 24" cabinet to 27", I need to see measurements and aisle widths.

For seating I would put one seat on the short end and 3 on the long side - with the three seats moved "up" 15" from the "bottom" short end (for 15" of overhang for the seat on the short end).

Why do you need a pantry cabinet if you already have a pantry? Pantry cabinets over about 18" deep or any size with roll out tray shelves, are probably the most expensive and least useful type of pantry there is. If you must have a pantry cabinet, then it should be no wider than 18" and should be a pullout (shelves attached to the door that automatically pullout when the door is opened.)

We need a fully measured layout of the entire kitchen space, not just part of it (e.g, I cannot see the range in the 2D view). In addition, a full-floor layout would be really helpful so we can see how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house and traffic through and around it.

If you haven't read it already, I recommend reading the Layout Help FAQ:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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We also have a set of Kitchen Design FAQ threads that I recommend you read if you haven't read them already as well - it explains about good kitchen design guidelines/best practices when designing a kitchen - and they will help you understand the comments you are receiving.

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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The refrigerator will need at least 12" b/w it and the wall (on either side) to allow the doors to open fully

Not necessarily - our last two fridges (current one is a Thermador built-in, but previous one was a Kitchenaid full depth with French doors) only needed 3-4".

I'm concerned about turning your kitchen into a major intersection between front door/stairs to living room and from garage/powder room/dining room to living room. You wrote above that your architect made up drawings of the whole first floor. Can you just snap a pic of that and post? I'd like to see how it all works together. It looks like the vaulted area is an addition and the room outside the garage door may have been the old dining room?

Is the fireplace staying? Is that an important feature to keep or are you open to removing it if it improves the layout?

I like the fireplace as it's the only one in the house, so I never considered removing it. It is huge as it goes up through the 2nd floor and obviosly the roof and it takes up a 5 X 4 space on the 2nd floor. The house is a Cape Cod with 2 small dormers on the main part of the house and one dormer on the part with the downstairs bedrooms.

I'll look at it more tomorrow...I had knee surgery today so I'm not up to it tonight

Oh, Buehl! Get well soon.

Correct me if I am wrong, but she is not turning the kitchen into a hallway, the door was already there, no? They are just moving it 3-4". I would guess that removing that door might cause a much larger headache, so probably not a focal point of the remodel?

Again, not trying to be a stick in the mud, but, to me, would seem like a sorta "it is what it is" type thing and the rest is up in the air.

R

The door way into the hall to the front door can't be changed so I believe we have to work around it. They were just moving in over a bit to be able to get 23/24 inch base custom cabinets in because I believe the drawer slides come in 21 inches. The orginal wall I believe was around 21 1/2 inches wide on that side.

Thank you for your advice everyone. I hope you're feeling better Buehl!

If I can't change the fireplace in front living/dining room and can't change the doorway to the front hall to the front door becasue they already exist, what does everyone suggest? My architect had a peninsula open to the living room, but I like having an island in the middle better, but not sure if this is the right thing to do. Below the kitchen and family is all open basement so not a big deal to move plumbing etc.

Thank you Kaj3079! I'm getting there - my knee is pretty badly swollen right now.

sjhockeyfan325....

"Not necessarily - our last two fridges (current one is a Thermador built-in, but previous one was a Kitchenaid full depth with French doors) only needed 3-4"."

True built-in refrigerators do not need the space, but the majority of people get counter-depth or standard-depth instead (in part due to the ridiculously high price of built-ins).

If the picture you posted is the KA, then the reason you didn't need 12" is b/c the wall to the right of the refrigerator isn't that much deeper than the refrigerator carcass/box. In Kaj's picture, there is a deeper wall next to the refrigerator, so it will need more space - unless it's a true built-in.

Kaj - are you looking for overall layout help or just island help? I think overall, but I wanted to check b/f I spent time coming up with an overall layout.

It looks like the space will be a Kitchen + Dining Room + Family Room - correct?

-OR-

Are you turning the current Living Room (with fireplace) into a Dining Room?

Dear Buehl,

At first I was just asking about the size of the island and if it was too big, but then I was getting comments on the layout. People mentioned the sink should not be across from the range (although I have seen several very beautiful kitchens on this site with the same configuration). I would be interested in any layout advice as this will be the room that we spend most of our time in. I really do prefer the island in the middle verses a peninsula into the family room.

The fridge would be a standard fridge with french doors and it was going to go on the wall that is closet to the opening to front hall and the wall is over 36 inches deep at that point and we can make the othe end of the wall as deep as we want, we just have to make room for a doorway and a door into the pantry on the the wall (that goes through to the old dining room which is 10ft wide by 14 feet long) where the walk in pantry for large enteraining items is going and a powder room. The wall from where the frideg is to the start of where the alcove jets in 24inches is 11ft 6 inches.

The width of the kitchen before you get to the cove that goes in 2 feet is 15ft wide and then it goes to about 16ft 9 inches to the corner round that is attached to the basebboard on the floor that opens to the family room. After redaing people's comments, I would probably like to have a dining table in between the kitchen and family room if that's possible.

Thank you for any advice.

Regarding the sink being across from the range: It's OK if it's a prep sink, but unless you have a minimum of 48" wide aisles (measured from the range handle to the island counter edge), I would not put a cleanup sink across from the range. What's worse, is having a DW across from a range/cooktop.

When you say on "this site", do you mean Houzz? If so, be aware that most of Houzz has nothing to do with the Kitchens Forum and the other former GW sites (the "GardenWeb" or "Home" sites). In fact, the rest of Houzz is really for pros trolling for business, not helping non-customers for free.

Since the takeover by Houzz, the Kitchens Forum has seen many kitchen "reveals" from people who did not design or work on their kitchens with us - so you may see some less than desirable kitchen designs here. When we were GardenWeb, we asked that only people who used the Kitchens Forum to design and/or work on their kitchen post reveals, but with Houzz, that's gone by the wayside. That now makes it tough for newcomers to know if someone is just posting to "brag" about their kitchen (regardless of whether it's good or bad) or if they're posting to let us know how it turned out with the help we gave. [We don't shoot down anyone, we either keep quiet or find something nice to say even when we see major issues - it's too late too fix the issues anyway.]

Note that some spaces do require compromises (e.g., a cleanup sink directly across from a range), but we do our best to help people come up with compromises that aren't dysfunctional. Oh, and how a kitchen is used (e.g., by a single person living alone vs a family) can also dictate what compromises are acceptable/functional.

Question: Do you need to have a doorway b/w the Foyer and the Kitchen? Couldn't people go through the Living Room? That would keep people out of the main work aisles - which will be an even bigger issue if you have an island instead of a peninsula.

Yes, I know, everyone wants an island - they're the latest fad - but they don't work well in all spaces.

Also, the dimensions are a bit confusing, could you please let us know the following measurements?

It would be a 36inch french door standard depth fridge, a 30 inch range with hood, a 24 inch DW and I believe it was a 31 inch wide double drop in sink. I wanted to hide microwave in a cabinet that you pull up cabinet door to hide in upper cabinet. We can't close off door to hallway to front door as that is a long way to go from guest bedrooms down hallway,through living room into kitchen for a drink.

Yes, I was going to put my dining room set in the formal living room because the table will actually look nice centered in the archway because the fireplace is not centered in the room. We could put a seating area in front of fireplace if we wanted to. In the old dining room off the garage, there will be a pantry off the kitchen and the powder behind that against the garage wall. I would assume we would need at least a 30-32 inch doorway opening from kitchen to powder room, living room and garage. The pantry door I would think at least 30 inches or could it be smaller? I was just thinking of a smaller informal dining table if it worked between the kitchen and family room. The tile from the kichen will stop at the ridge going into family room. I believe the entire length of kitchen/family space is around 40 feet long and the width up to trim and corner round is 16 feet 9 inches, I believe the the previous dimensions included the trim and walls. I measured just the width of hard wood floors in family room and it was 16"9, which would make sense because they put on an 18X30 addition.

In the architect plans, I believe the dotted lines is the Vaulted ceiling. It starts 6 ft from where it goes in 2 feet by the pantry. The room has 8 foot walls and then starts to vault on the sides and goes up to 11 foot peak. I hope I answered all your questions. I went back and measured again.

The existing layout with the peninsula is a MUCH better traffic pattern.

OK, so if you don't want the peninsula and you're not willing to close up the entry to the Foyer, then are you willing to move the Foyer entry? Perhaps to the wall where you have the refrigerator? That would at least help direct the traffic around to the other side of the island. It would have the added benefit of hiding dirty dishes, etc., from the front door - so the first thing a visitor sees when entering your home is not a messy kitchen or dirty dishes.

If you're not willing to do either (eliminate or move the Foyer entry), then are you willing to have constant traffic through your Prep, Cooking, and Cleanup Zones?

Having a major thoroughfare through your Prep & Cooking Zones, in particular, can be dangerous. Do you want to be dodging traffic when trying to take a pot of boiling water to the sink to empty or when trying to move prepped items from the island to the range across the aisle?

Here's an idea to jump-start further discussion. I moved the Foyer entry. This creates a natural barrier that directs traffic from the Foyer to the back side of the island.

The aisles are wide enough to allow all three primary work zones to be in the aisle b/w the island and the range wall.

It may seem like overkill, but there are two sinks - with a layout like this, a prep sink will help make it more functional. You can prep on either:

• The perimeter next to the range - dirty dishes won't be an issue nor will there be a conflict if someone is trying to clean up or unload the DW while someone else is trying to prep.

-or-

• On the island next to the cleanup sink - as long as there aren't dirty dishes sitting on the island or in the cleanup sink and no one is trying to clean up or unload the DW

Dish storage is in the island in drawers. There is plenty of space for dishes.

You said you want the MW to be in a tall cabinet with doors - so I put one in on the side. However, I think it would work better to have the MW closer to a water source - so I show an alternate location for the MW as a MW drawer next to the range. If you don't use the MW much, then the tall cabinet should be fine even though it's a bit far from water and the refrigerator. Above the MW, you could include tray storage (cooling racks, cookie sheets, etc.) as well as larger serving platters and similar. See below for an example.

You could create a Snack Center next to the MW cabinet. Again, it's not next to a water source, but that may be OK.

Behind the island is the Message/Command Center. It can be either a base cabinet + upper cabinet or it could be in a tall pantry-type cabinet that can be closed (see Sweeby's "Organization Closet" in this thread for an example: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2815096/what-are-command-centers?n=15). Normally, I would suggest putting the Message Center in the Mudroom next to the Garage entrance, but I don't think you have room for it there.

Note that all seats have 15" of clear leg/knee space - the minimum recommended for counter-height seating. If you have tall people or people with long legs in the family, consider adding another 3" to the overhang on the short end - that's something I wish we had done. 15" is fine for me at 5'10", but it's too shallow for my DH and DS (6'5" and 6'7", respectively).

The 9" deep cabinets under the overhang provide extra storage as well as bigger buffer b/w the cleanup sink and people sitting at the island. I'm not a fan of sitting at a counter with dirty dishes, but the extra 9" helps mitigate the impact.

Here's the layout and the accompanying zone map:

Zone map:

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Tray storage example - note the platters are below the trays. You can easily remove the cooling racks, etc., by grasping the bottoms of the items, so you can place them a bit higher. The platters are easily reached as well. This is over my double ovens.

I've been thinking this over and here's one idea. I really think the powder room is best located off the entry hall. Also, since your main living area is at the back of the house I think it is good to be mindful of the sight line from the entry hall through to the back of the family room. In this layout, I like that the clean up sink is tucked away with a window above the sink.

View from cased opening at the end of entry hall looking across peninsula

View from living room toward kitchen--range and hood as focal point:

What is your plan for the main floor bedrooms and bathroom? Have you considered rearranging that part of the house to be a master suite? You could create a bedroom/closet/full bath and a separate powder room on that side of the entry hall.