OK here is one idea. The priority right now is the west wall (sorry, north is down in these drawings) I could use aesthetic advice on the cabinetry for the range area, but I'd love to get some basic layout issues resolved first.

Given that the range can't move and the hatch can't move, what are my options? I'm willing to consider almost anything, because I literally lose sleep thinking about this.

Here are some sketches. The idea here was to turn that cluster*&# of the west wall into a wall of useful storage. The rear entrance to the house is there on the north side, and there's a bottleneck of shoes, dog gear, recycle, etc. The ceilng over there is sloped due to the roof. Elsewhere, we are lucky to have 9'-6" ceilings, and I'd like to use every bit of the height where it works. I thought this scheme might tidy up the disparate parts of the kitchen and allow ample room to put the stuff of life away. Of course, how useful is a 24" deep pantry? Is it just too deep?

(and sorry, are the plans I posted before too blurry? Forgive my clumsiness!) Happy to repost

And here is the other scheme I've come up with. I don't care for corners, but it's an L-shaped counter top with a window on one side. Probably easiest to see in the model.

The last time I did anything to the kitchen, it was Ikea. It was fine for that point in time, but now I'd rather do fewer cabinets and do custom. I've got a cabinetmaker and am familiar with how things get built. My point being: I don't need to keep sizes too standard. My thought with either of these schemes is that in 5 years (say,) we can extend the entire kitchen to the north by 3-4 feet. That would give enough room for a small prep island. So my second point is: this needs to be good enough for a few years. I don't need to abide by every NKBA rule at this point. It's a cute old house near downtown in a small city, and it's never going to have a big suburban kitchen. I don't want to take out all its quirks ;)

So thanks again, and do let me know what else I can provide!

Oh here's a quick scribble of the "5 year" idea. That's going to involve relocating a small garage and some landscape work. Always a work in progress with an old house...

Welcome to Kitchens, scottie mom. I like your last plan better (the one before the addition). It seems more open, and if you have help, the extra counter will make a secondary prep area, or serving area for a buffet. I'm including a link to one of my favorite GW kitchens, deedles' remodel in an older home, including this solution, which would work in the open space beside the fridge:

deedles' kitchen reveal, and many storage ideas

Could you please post a current picture of the "hatch"? I'm having trouble picturing it. (Unless it's just a door in the floor that leads to the basement...which it looks like in option 2.)

If you plan to add on to the Kitchen within 5 years, are you sure you want to spend the money now on a remodel? I think you would be better off living with what you have for now or just make inexpensive changes that you won't mind getting rid of later. When you add on, most likely a better layout will be obtainable so you won't be able to reuse cabinets you buy now.

Oh, and I also like Option 2 better - but I would move the sink down to next to the DW. That would give you more prep space on the non-Cleanup Zone side. Prepping needs more space. Don't worry about the sink being in front of the window - that's an old paradigm from before DWs were commonplace when people spent a lot of time hand washing all dishes.

I would think a bit more about that 5-year plan b/w now and 5 years from now.

@weezel Here is a picture of the hatch. It's essentially a door in the floor. It's not the best, but it's the only way down to the laundry (and storage-mechanical) from the inside. There is another entrance, through a bulkhead door outside. Once we'd decided to take the chimney down, I made the executive decision to trash the existing nasty floor, which is why you see brand new Marmoleum on this floor. It needs another bit of trim around the hinge side (as well as the hook that @mama_goose recommends!) I guess I'm just used to it. We did think about abandoning the hatch, but carrying laundry outside in the cold did not appeal. I'd be happy with a chute to at least send towels and sheets down there....

And thanks for that great idea from Deedles' kitchen! We have considered a variety of rolling solutions. I'd also like to have an open space, however. It'd be nice for dogs to be able to dine out of the way of traffic.

As you can see from the photo, I make great use of carts, but would love to be less dependent on them. In a couple of days, my carpenter is putting a piece of corian to the left of the stove. We checked headroom very carefully, and it will be fine for the couple of trips up and down the hatch we make during the week.

To the left of the stove is the hatch.

And I'll share a couple of old photos from before the chimney came out. These are from several years ago when I last tackled this tricky space. Believe it or not, this was a 100% improvement over the kitchen that was there, which had no countertops at all, and one more door swinging into it. That door I eliminated went to an outdoor pantry that I tore down with my bare hands ;)

The old stove was pretty, and suited the house. But progress must me made, and I do love the Berta!

Here you can also see the pretty old cabinet that was in the nook between chimney and wall. I miss it at the moment, but the extra acreage in the kitchen makes such a difference. It's now easy for two people to coexist in there.

Fridge and remaining cabinets to the right of the stove. And the old inswing casements. You don't see those too much in this country. They're super cute. And super inconvenient. I never open them and the view on that side isn't much at all. In fact, there are translucent panels inside them now. I love the light, don't love looking at the AC compressor.

Double drainboard sink and glass cabinets above. That sink was the ONLY built in work surface in there when I bought the house. Added 48" countertop to the left, and replaced former door with that tiny window I picked up for a song. Like I said, this was a quick Ikea redo several years ago, and it has served its purpose. Time to get something more permanent.

That's the door to the porch, and the much maligned corner of inconvenience. Impossible to get there without tripping on a dog bowl or a trash can.

Thanks again. I already feel better!

Another vote for option 2! I think it looks pretty good. Agree with DW in corner and sink next to it. A shame to get rid of the lovely large windows, but it looks like you have windows on 3 sides anyway so should get enough light. It looks nice enough as is thought if I were going to do an addition I would wait and put that money into the addition fund for later as you may want the fridge closer to the sink, etc - different layout with more space. Never seen a laundry hatch before! And I own and have looked at lots of 1920s homes - fascinating. I guess I will be thankful for our super narrow staircase down to the laundry. Getting rid of the lovely looking 1940s stove in our house was one of the best things we did - and saved us ~$8/month on gas for pilot lights.

Oh, I want to hug your kitchen! We once lived in a bungalow that had low windows that opened like that, in the sloped half story. I know, it looks more charming than it functions.

I would move the sink down to next to the DW. That would give you more
prep space on the non-Cleanup Zone side. Prepping needs more space. In any other instance, I would agree with buehl, but I'd be willing to prep over the DW (in the current layout) to keep the double drainboard sink. I have one sitting outside my back door, being used for a potting bench. I wanted to use it in the kitchen, but didn't have the space. If you decide not to use it, then I agree with moving the new sink next to the DW.

Love the Marmoleum floor!

Buehl and Lharpie you make excellent points. Maybe what I'm really thinking is "should I do the 5-year plan now?" And if so, can you help me work around the few things that are set in stone (stove, door to living/dining.)

Keeping the dishwasher directly adjacent to the sink will only work if I get rid of the double drainboard sink. Anyone have feelings about that? As I said, I don't want to completely sanitize the kitchen of its charm, and the old stove, the casements, and the sink are all things that make it cute, to me. But I also know that being overly sentimental about these things is a peril.

OTOH, I was, like you, relieved to get rid of my old stove. She was literally rusting away, and I was stubbornly resisting replacing her because I couldn't find anything attractive and without an electronic panel in my price range.

Related aside: I don't particularly care for stainless steel. I love the Berta and had literally been collecting photos of them (mostly white) for years. Last month, I found one in a shop in a small town nearby. I was not looking for it there, but had resolved to replace the old stove, so I guess my radar was up. Long story short: the dealer wanted to move the Berta out to make room for other displays. They offered me the stove with hood (600cfm) backsplash and vent cover for a "cash & carry" price I could not refuse. What can I say? It seemed like a sign :) Love the stove and the whole setup is nice enough, but the hood is likely to get hidden with cabinetry. Just didn't want to misrepresent my aesthetics. I'd like to "water down" the look of the stainless, if that makes sense. It's a small kitchen and a big range!

I deliberate way too much on these things, so it's often helpful to have limits imposed. In this case, the matched set of the stove & hood made my life easier. And it looks great!

Thanks everyone. I'll ponder your ideas as I cook dinner :)

I have one sitting outside my back door, being used for a potting bench.

That's my backup plan! I think it would make a swell (if heavy) potting bench. Mine's in great shape.

Oh, I want to hug your kitchen! We once lived in a bungalow that had low windows that opened like that, in the sloped half story. I know, it looks more charming than it functions.

And I want to hug you for saying that! I can't tell you how helpful that is. I have a Masters in architectural history and I love old buildings. But every so often when people say "why don't you reuse this?" or "You can't get rid of that lovely old stove!" I feel like saying "you try cooking a meal in here!" Those photos are just post-renovation, and let me assure you, there was nothing in that kitchen yet. It was all out in the garage. The most dysfunctional kitchen in the world can look fabulous with nothing in it but a Bialetti and an orchid!

*This* is what the kitchen looked like just before the stove went to her new home. And I'm at this point again, where I can take the momentum of a ridiculously easy (and surprisingly inexpensive) improvement (stove +chimney+floor, along with some electrical,) or I can let it go and lose my way again. I've got the energy and the funds right now to take another step toward a functional, yet cute kitchen. I just don't know what that step should be.

Much appreciated, as always.

If you can, I'd either do the "5-year plan" now or wait. If you can afford it now - both time & money - I'd do it now.

Of course we'll help you with it!

Start by drawing up the layout of the entire first floor (or whatever floor the kitchen is on). While exact scale isn't required, the closer to scale, the better.

Next, in the kitchen space,

• Measure everything -
  -- The width/sizes of each wall/wall bumpout/window/door/doorway and the distances b/w each wall/wall bumpout/window/door/doorway.
  -- Measure the distances the windows are off the floor
  -- Include both the existing space and the planned space (similar to what you did above - but with more measurements). Don't worry about the cabinets, etc., just give us the "blank slate".

• Let us know what else you plan to do in the kitchen (e.g,. new floor - if you plan to redo it again).

• Be sure to mark things that absolutely cannot be changed/moved. But, be sure they cannot be changed - don't make assumptions that it would be too difficult or too expensive.

Finally, give us a bit more information about you and your family, appliances (both need and want), etc.

The Layout Help FAQ will help.

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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I looked at your five year expansion idea and I thought I'd throw out another idea that may not work, but if it does it might offer a better cost/benefit. Your kitchen is a really nice size, I think a big limitation is that the back door bisects the space. Have you thought about moving the back door to the west wall and adding a laundry/mudroom to the west? It affords you one nice long wall for your dishwasher/sink/prep/range. I put this in Ikea planner just to help communicate my suggestion:

Can you post a plan of your whole house? Wouldn't you prefer to move the laundry to the main floor?

Can you post a plan of your whole house? Wouldn't you prefer to move the laundry to the main floor?

Here's a plan.

And yes, that's the goal. I'll post a couple of photos too. The most likely direction to add on is to the north. My last idea was to put laundry into a utility area where garage is located now, and to connect that to the house.

@Benjesbride, it's a great idea...except the bedroom window would be blocked. The house is quite small. I've considered adding a story on top of the garage, which would be enlarged/ moved.

Buehl,

Thanks! I can do all of that. Question: what is the best format to post these drawings? They are all to scale and very accurate, but I posted screenshots of PDFs to make them easier to see.

As for the family situation here: I live alone, but my SO is here more often than not. One big motivation for me was to be able to cook/ enjoy the kitchen together, rather than bumping into each other. Also, his dog is here often, and along with my two, it creates traffic. The yard is fenced in back, so they go out there to get sun, bark at the cat, whatever. The circulation is indeed a challenge. The door to the north could move, and any of the windows could move as well.

As has been pointed out, the kitchen is not a bad size, it just needs a mudroom entry to keep it more orderly. And the idea of moving laundry out of the basement is quite a good one. In fact, that's probably the main goal here, if I'm to stay in this house for many years. We don't have kids, but the dogs create laundry, and they've got gear and food and so forth. I have an office space in the front where I sometimes see professional visitors. This is one reason I didn't want to open the kitchen up to the house. As you can see from the plan, it's quite small. But with the high ceilings, it feels really nice. It's a magic combination for me. I happen to be quite tall, and the idea of having fewer square feet to take care of is appealing for a lot of reasons!

I'll work on the other questions in the meantime, and will get some more dimensions onto those drawings.

Thanks everybody!

A layout using graph paper is ideal, but if you have a PDF with all the measurements labeled (or you add them), that will be fine. Here's a sample:

Hmm. It doesn't seem to allow me to attach a PDF. Better in inches, or feet and inches?

Here is a JPG. Let me know if it's legible. I put dimns in inches in red so they'd be easy to see. Can provide this in almost any format, if that helps.

Thank you!

And here is just the plan, with window heights indicated

If you're ready to spend your retirement account, I used your plan, converted the existing porch, and gave you (your dogs) a new one. :)

Wow. You're good.

And that may well be doable...

more later

Working off of MamaGoose's layout...I would still take advantage of the planned 4' extension of the kitchen. It will allow you to have a pantry and multiple Prep Zones - although only the primary and one secondary have water.

In the Mudroom, the 27" wide tall cabinet is for storage - laundry supplies, dog food, etc. It could be 24" deep, but then it crowds the door a bit.

But, is it possible with the "5-year plan" that the range can move? It makes so much more sense functionally to move it.

Call me crazy but this kitchen totally reminds me of my grandmother's house.. lol.. love to see what it ends up with :P Make sure to update this thread with "My reveal is posted!" so I do not miss it ;)

Sorry.. will leave the designing to the experts, just wanted to get updates.. heh

R

You are all amazing! After seeing MamaGoose's idea yesterday, I took a photo to show how the garage sits lower than the house (maybe 42" from floor to garage slab) and it has a hipped roof which I hadn't explained before. It's not too obvious behind that hateful cherry tree, so I traced it in for you. I don't think it's a deal-breaker, but choices seem to be: raise the garage (which probably means knock it down and rebuild into a two-story addition--that's the 10+year plan ;) ) Or the mud room would be a few steps lower than the kitchen, with a low-sloped metal roof and 8' ceilings.

Or maybe I can figure out some way to resolve those roofs. Hip roofs are so charming, but so frustrating when you want to modify. I love the idea of making the mudroom look like the old-fashioned glassed-in porch. Perhaps keeping the low slung asymmetrical west side, with the open rafter tails. And then reusing the big casements! Then that big old double drainboard sink could be on the outside, near the casements, and it'd be a proper potting bench/ wash up place for the grill. There's another 50+ feet of property beyond that fence on the left that could be garden. I've left it kind of undeveloped because I always wanted to make the shed ("Garage") into some kind of two story affair, perhaps with a studio or bedroom suite above, and the utility space below. It's too tiny for a real garage, and everyone parks on the street here anyway.

And Russ, thanks for your enthusiasm too. When I found this house, I was delighted that no one had ever done anything bad to it. It had only had two owners, so I am lucky #3, and I want to be good to the house, while making smart decisions in terms of value, of course. Either way, the house certainly looks pretty in this fine Spring weather. When I went out to take this picture yesterday, my neighbors were out in a hammock. I was telling them about all the help you all have given me, and they say they want to see a Wine Bar incorporated into the garage ;)

Thanks for all your ideas. I'm seeing so many possibilities

And Buehl, you're probably right about the stove. Where you've placed it is pretty easy for plumbing and venting the dryer in one shot, and that's all accessible through crawl space. In this scheme, I think I might keep the door to the mudroom open, or even (gasp) a half-light pocket door. If the mudroom is quite glassy, that would bring some light into the kitchen.

Can you tell me what a snack center is? Maybe a coffee-tea area? The kitchen is so hopelessly disorganized these days that we realize there are "snacks" stashed in several cabinets! We're totally used to a "Counter Depth" 32" fridge and wouldn't want anything larger, so that might open up some possibilities.

I really like the symmetry on the west wall, and I'm impressed you could get those *&^$ windows to work. Since they'd have to come up in height anyway, I could tighten the space between them and cheat them in either direction a bit too. I think I'm too corner-phobic to use the Susan. I'd just as soon keep pots on a pot rack, especially since I have such generous ceiling height. The prep counter is dreamy, however!

Eliminating the hatch is indeed a goal. If W/D move upstairs, and I get more functional storage in the MudRoom, that takes away the need for an interior passage to that area. Much like my pretty old stove, the trap door is an accident waiting to happen. Thanks for helping me put that into perspective. We get so accustomed to the quirks of our own living spaces, don't we?

Thanks again!

Can you transition into the main house with a step up to the landing for the side entry, a step from the garage to mudroom, then another couple of steps up to the kitchen? I rearranged the kitchen in the plan on the right, with the sink facing the backyard, if you don't want to look out the window over the sink, and see the laundry window or entry door a few feet
away. If you're willing to move the range, then buehl's plan might work better. (I also drew an alternate entry in the second plan.)

Heavens, that is so helpful! And hilarious :-)

I do think the steps make sense, and there's got to be some kind of solution for those roofs. Either way, seeing these possibilities will indeed keep me from doing too much on the existing kitchen for the time being. It really just needs to be "good enough" for now.

It's another glorious spring day here and I'm taking off from work to clean up the construction mess out back. That gives me a good opportunity to really meditate on the space out there. It's been a no-man's land of dogs, utility, and a really awkward entry from the street. In many ways, this is a landscape problem as much as a kitchen problem. As the song goes, "God loves a terrier," but man, they make a mess of the yard ;)

The garage could also become the laundry space, at least that's how I used to think about the long-term plan. I do hang clothes to dry, both outside and in, and having that space would be nice. This motivates me to move the scraps of sheetrock and lumber that have been in my way. More soon.

Thank you!!!

How about this idea? I'm sure there are plenty of opinions about incorporating laundry into a kitchen (or not,) here. But I don't know how to find them yet.

Since the existing laundry is located almost directly below the new stove, and I've just put in a vent pipe and a gas line for it, what about relocating the Washer Dryer to a closet there? Then the stove can go wherever it will work best.

I've got full-size top loaders in the basement that are going on 15 years old. Am open to more compact and newer options, if anyone cares to make a suggestion. Or if putting the laundry in the kitchen is just a bad idea, tell me and we can forget about it! Right now, anything seems more convenient than dismantling part of the kitchen and running down that trap door whenever we want access to laundry.

Thanks, as always.

I LIKE the idea of moving the laundry to the current stove location! What about adding on to the kitchen....with the back door going out to the side.

Then you could have steps down to the garage and a lot more windows over the sink. Even if it's facing the garage, you could add a pergola with vines that like shade.

And maybe a few stools if you like?

Oh, and MamaGoose...I love all the plants in your drawings! : )

lavender, I learned all my virtual landscaping from you. ;)

Just had a thought...if you relocate the laundry - would you be interested in opening up the wall into the living room from the left wall to the chimney? It would give you a 30" to 33" pass-through.

If the chimney leftover can be removed altogether, you could open up that entire wall...with maybe a post if it's a load-bearing wall.

It's as if you read my mind...there is some residual chimney though. I could probably cut away 24" of that wall before I hit masonry. My SO loves the idea of a pass-through, but I can't seem to drill it into his head that the stove would have to move. I think I was trying to squeeze laundry into that space mostly to avoid feeling badly about placing gas, electrical and venting there.

The laundry really could go anywhere, and maybe it belongs "out" in the mudroom-garage area. I was even thinking about going with a compact laundry for day-to-day, and leaving the old units downstairs for heavy loads once in a while. OTOH, there's a laundromat down the street ;)

With any of these projects, there's a bit of regret ("I should have thought about it before I placed the stove.") But, the removal of the chimney, which was prompted by the stove, is going to offer a lot more possibilities in the future. It was a messy job, but relatively painless, and it's done!

Moving the laundry in order to abandon the hatch is only going to add more possibilities (like the pass-through,) so I have a lot of thinking to do. In the meantime, I do appreciate all the comments. It's unbelievably helpful!

Thanks

A Snack Center is nice in that it provides a place for someone to get a snack without getting in the way of meal prep or cleanup. Often, it has a MW and/or toaster oven plus counterspace and is ideally close to the refrigerator. It should not be in the middle of any of the three primary work zones - Prep, Cooking, Cleanup.

You can also store snack-related items in the Snack Center - snack foods as well as dishes/utensils.

I see. Makes sense! And I suppose that may be a good place for dog food and feeding of dogs too. Need to keep that out of traffic!

Today, I realized that the mud room must incorporate a dog wash. This guy managed to put much more mud on him than I'd removed (this, after a muddy walk at the river.) Leaving him outside to dry is not an option. He's part piglet, I'm afraid. So, I'm leaning back to the idea of placing laundry closer to the back/ mud entrance of the house, in order to separate this kind of mess from the kitchen. Yuck!

Would a deep laundry sink work? He seems pretty small : )

OK, now you're reading my mind! I'm planning our retirement home and I was telling my DH last week that we need to have a dog wash in our mudroom!

In our current kitchen, I incorporated a "Pet Center". We have an open peninsula in which I turned the corner cabinet 90 degrees so it faces outside the kitchen - it houses our dogs' food, treats, extra leashes, etc.

This is what it looks like:

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Interesting and, again, helpful. Thanks to you both!

Brilliant to incorporate the Pet Center into the kitchen. As it is, I've got at least half of one big drawer devoted to those things, and I don't much like mixing some of that stuff with food-related items (leaky Frontline packages, I'm looking at you!) They belong in a separate drawer as you have them, or in a mud room near the dog wash, which of course can double as a utility sink. It's not too hard to rig up a proper dog wash, inside or out--depending on the size of the dog and level of recalcitrance when it comes to baths ;)

The more I think about it, the more a mud room makes sense for a small house. The only real addition that has been made post-1920s is a large-ish bathroom, with heated floors, a big closet, and a walk-in shower (separate from tub,) that has a nice high window. You can see the high window on the right in my other photos. Anyway, I do think that adding a good-size bathroom onto a tiny house is a huge improvement, especially when you think about sharing the space. A well-designed mud-room/ laundry will have a similar effect, unburdening the kitchen and other spaces from storage of linens, light bulbs, gift wrap, you name it!

It's possible I can achieve what I want without adding extra "living" space (a bedroom or studio,) but I wonder if that becomes risky. It'd still be a 2 BR 1Ba house, albeit with ample storage and a comfortable connection to utility space outside.

I think I'd like to proceed by designing the mud room and kitchen as if there would be a two story space where the garage is. I'd always imagined that space being linked to the old space through the kitchen, and that "mud" would be housed in the lower portion of the addition (where the garage is presently.)

It's so helpful to have feedback like this to keep me from doing something impulsive that might make things better only in the short run. What a great resource you all are! Thanks again.